The number of young people to old people is unbalanced. Normally, throughout history, there were fewer elders than young due to the fact that people died over time. However, now with low birth rates and modern medicine, there are more elderly than there are youthful. So give it a few decades as the old start to die and that 8 billion will drop. We're already seeing this in Italy and Japan, China just started losing population last year.
>So the issue could be easily solved by simply eating the elderly
What if I told you those elderly we need to eat just so happen to be the same rich we have been needing to eat for a few centuries now?
Give them rich old people to eat (by consuming their meat they will grow in power and become normal old people, and if they become rich, theyāll just join the other in our plates. But at least they got a great meal)
And when they develop they're probably gonna face the same issues.
It doesn't affect the whole world pupulation-wise but rather international-significance-wise.
A collapse/stagnation of the biggest economies will be bad for the rest of the world too.
Right well to your point, the low birth rate issue is only an issue for poorer, but educated, white westerners. So.. the hype around the "collapsing birthrate" is really just .. you guessed it... Racism in disguise. This is racewar dog whistling bullshit IMO- Get people worked up that the white people will be overrun by POC and their children
The only thing that will collapse is capitalism. Perpetual growth was never possible... We could all live comfortable lives without the need of always having to increase profits or output year after year.
All industrialized societies and humans in general have a need for infinite growth, capitalism just provides more markets and the concept of private property itās literally that simple.
Overpopulation is generally not really a problem. There are some areas with high population density but the problems those have are more structural than just the amount of people. Kowloon is probably an example of genuine over population in a given area where itās too densely populated.
Thereās a lot of land in the world, weāre just set up in a way where we either donāt use it right or abuse it.
it's not, but it will peak and then probably decrease at like 11 billion people in which case we will have to deal with crumbling infrastructure and economies that were built for more people that can realistically maintain them.
That said people get super dramatic over it, it won't be the end of the world but it's a problem that needs to be remedied that people have a hard time wrapping their head around outside of the idiot solution which is just hur durr have more kids.
> I just donāt understand how the rise of technology and the insane increases in efficiency donāt make up for that age balance.
Because all the improvements go to capital. Who buys self-ordering kiosks for fast food? Capitalists. Who buys the self driving trucks? Capitalists. Who is going to pay for the rights to AI algorithms? Capitalists. All we get is whatever scraps that shake out once they've made their billions and (probably soon) trillions. Until we change that, we will _never_ get direct benefits from improvement in technology.
It's "collapsing" in the sense that the economy is geared towards infinite growth. (Of population, profit, etc.)
Because we live on a finite Earth, that's kind of a bitch.
A society isnāt reliant on its population to succeed or fail. I know this probably seems like it makes no sense, but you can have a dystopian society of billions or a successful society in the hundreds.
It all comes down to tolerance.
Its a developed country issue.
Japan and south Korea are the best examples since they have very little immigration.
They're gonna have a unprecedented crisis within a few decades.
There's a small population of extremely wealthy people hoarding all the resources and leaving the rest worse off year by year. No one notices it because it is a slow process, akin to gently boiling a frog.
But poor musk he wont get an exponentional growth to his underpaid workforce! Did you thought about those poor billionaire before choosing not to have childrens???
I hate Elon Musk as much as the next guy but I honestly doubt that he's so comically malicious that he knows birthrates going down isn't really a big deal and only wants more people to have children just so he can exploit them. He's probably just stupid and genuinely thinks it's a problem.
It's fucking exhausting trying to understand if all the belligerent people in power are acting out of malice or stupidity, but it feels safer to attribute it to malice so we don't underestimate them. Being stupid with power is still more dangerous than being malicious without it imo.
Yeah, stupid or knowlegeable. Something called age dependency ratio is a thing, and will be taxing the shit out of what's left of some western nations' able bodied work force, while around 30% are over 65 yrs.
There isn't even now enough medical staff, and people are getting their pensions later and later as the age limit is constantly raised to compensate. In finland my grandparents pension age is 62, mine is 70. Meanwhile taxes are likely to be raised to compensate lack of working economy amid public sector crisis, so less funding and economic prosperiety for us, the elderly need it.
We simply don't have enough people to do the work needed (especially in relation to elderly pop), and immigration can only help so much and brings need to educate and socially integrate, something that hasnt happend in Sweden too well. Had we not had a recession in 1990, we probably wouldnt even be in this situation as we'd have bunch of youth around.
> It's stabilizing not according to the numbers of people currently on Earth, but according to a more natural number.
this makes no sense lol, there is no 'natural number' of humans in a developed industrialised world.
even developing nations like China are having birthrates fall. Having a rate that spikes then crashes is anything but stabilization. Nothing stable about a very high birthrate
On the one hand, I agree with Carlin that we should all fuck each other until we're all the same kind of grayish/brownish color. On the other, what will happen to the Gingers? Do they become outcasts or superheroes?
I think you misunderstood. Even when we're all a homogenous color, there will still be Gingers. I was wondering what their status would be and if they'd become X-Men.
Though I can see that paraphrasing a stand-up bit about race and adding an ambiguous bit to it wasn't a smart move. Ah well...
What is this truely god awful take? Why did people upvote this were they like āso true! Heckin Republicans are always likeā this isnāt a argument your just saying the stupidest shit ever to implant on your political āenemyā
Should we fix the issues that cause this decline or should we just import cheap labor that further exacerbates the problem?
Like I get it that brown immigrants are heckin cute but why would ever side with big corpo?
even if the reasons why people don't have kids were aliviated, i still believe the population would decline
i mean that's only a bad thing in a captitalist system that demands perpetual economic growth
Exactly. The numbers show that once people get educated they're less likely to have as many kids. Let's work off that assumption, and find ways we can do surplus labour with automation, or eliminate the need for that labour. Never-ending growth is the ideology of a cancer cell.
That really isnāt fixing the problem itās just a band aid and it has brings more negatives that pros since your letting large amounts of poor people who donāt have anything when coming to a country, their gonna drive up demand for good, housing, other essentials for a society, and especially for government services like healthcare or welfare.
Itād just be better to fix things and raise the birth rate than try to have immigrants fill in the gaps for shit birth rates.
Adoption is the only thing that comes into question for me personally. Would never do this to someone without their consent and I can't possibly get that consent ever.
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"Collapsing" birth rate is a white nationalist talking point. It's only concerning if you are concerned about the relative percentage of white people to black and brown people.
Without wading into white supremacists and eugenics freaks bullshit about demographic changes, there is a legitimate concern in terms of infrastructure and economic stability if we plateau at the 10-11 billion number and then population universally decreases.
Those are questions about what do we do when a city's population gets cut by a quarter. What do we do about social security and care for the elderly? Resource production and distribution, etc.
Birth rates have only been declining globally for about a decade, and have only just fallen again to the point it was at the end of the 90s when there was a similar decline, before shooting back up again. We're hitting birthrate stabilization, not collapse.
Not really, you canāt generalize this on a global scale, it just comes with demographic transition as a country develops. take France for example that has been going through this decline ever since world war 2, and compare it to most African countries. Also there is merit in saying that birth rates are collapsing in some nations. Japan and Korea already have a massive issue with the disproportionate amount of old people and China is about to as well.
Itās just the number of total births, itās not birth rates. If a more numerous generation comes of age and starts having children, the number of births will increase. The ābouncing backā your graph shows are just baby boomers born in 1960s becoming adults and having children. And the same website has statistics for fertility rate. No ābouncing backā, just falling to the abyss since 1960s, as the post suggests
https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
Your own source states that the fertility rate has dropped from 4.5-7 children per woman to 2 children per woman i.e. a stable replacement rate, since it therefore takes 2 people to reproduce 2 children. Like I said, we are hitting birth rate stabilization, not collapse. Take also into account that mortality rates are also declining, which is why such rapid population growth has been seen in previous decades.
Except collapse goes by county. A country could be demographically collapsing even if fertility rate is in a steady replacement state. The biggest example is china, which is projected to go from 1.4b ppl to 800mil in the next 30-40 years.
On a planet with finite resources that already seems overburdened by the existing population, the population growth slowing down actually seems pretty comforting to me.
Also the overburdening from the existing population is not a result of overpopulation, itās a result of mismanagement. Weāve solved many of our overpopulation problems by providing social welfare programs.
Think about Southeast Asia and you can see the effects of modern practices on large populations.
We can handle more people. We have estimates for 10.1B people being the maximum and based on these guysā track records I wouldnāt be too skeptical. They basically predicted the 8B in 2023 number in 2000.
It's not just that, smaller birth rate also means a generally older population, which might cause issues with stuff like pension. I'm not sayint it's right or wrong, I'm just saying there are more to this topic.
I agree that talking of a collapse can be more rhetorical. But there are many things to consider other than race, like age dependency ratio, taxing, pensions, education, healthcare and old people having more multimorbidity.
This far technology has proven adequate to push back these problems, like increase efficiency but it wont be enough if you look at 50-year span for many countries with over 65yr pop being around 30%.
What? Dude people literally arenāt having that many kids, the birth rate is collapsing to an extent though letās be grateful that weāre not china or just any East Asian country.
Just Get this shit take outta here saying how we should fix the birth rate problem doesnāt make someone a kkk member.
Not necessarly, here in the basque country our birth rate is very law 0.8 per women because the spanish are actively making it lower and making people move out so that basque nationalists, who faught against the spanish for 50 years can't get any popular, it's a policy that dates back from the franco era
China has already lost 1M people. I donāt know why people in this thread think itās āonly the white countriesā LatAm is going to start losing people too.
It's like sinking more money into an obvious ponzi scheme thinking that will fix the problem rather than just delay the inevitable and make the end result even worse!
People tend to not like anti natalists, rather than disliking the ideology in particular.
Anti-natalists tend to just be incredibly bitter people who can't seem to figure out how their actions caused their situation, and, like an angry teenager, blame it all on their parents.
They also tend to be hypocritical about choice. They will claim that you can't consent to life, and therefore it's immoral to give life. Then, mere seconds later, they'll happily say that abortion is okay, even though without action against it, the fetus will become a human, and by aborting it, you're making the decision of disallowing life from them without it's consent, which is no different than deciding that it should live without it's consent.
It is funny how the main reason a lot of people donāt want to have kids is economic insecurity. But people want to blame it on no fault divorce and queer people
Cart before the horse, the birth rate plummets as society collapses because no one wants to bring a child in to an unfair unstable society.
Anyone telling you different is a capitalist propaganda machine.
*Gilded, as in, covered in gold.
If you could point me to your data set I'd like to see what you're talking about. The earliest I can get birth rte data is starting in 1950.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/)
[https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/t1x0197.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/t1x0197.pdf)
[https://eh.net/encyclopedia/fertility-and-mortality-in-the-united-states/](https://eh.net/encyclopedia/fertility-and-mortality-in-the-united-states/)
\- three sources which show a higher birth rate back then.
these posts really annoy me because they just say "whats the point the world bad duh" instead of actually doing stuff to help make the world a better place.
To be fair: some people just in general don't want children. Never had kids and never will but from what I've heard from parents, children are a fuck ton of work that in my opinion aren't worth the effort. I'll save money and have a happier life without kids involved in it.
the only case where exponential human growth matters is for corporate profits. for the average person, the less people on this planet the better, but then all the rich scumbags wouldnāt be able to make more and more money and so they spout nonsense like this.
Itās a common theme in societies that fall that as birth rates collapse the society itself collapses or declines. Having more kids and increasing the population is generally a good thing for everyone.
Reality check:
1. "This is white-supremacist fear mongering about white replacement" --- No, below replacement (2.1) levels are now in most countries in the world. India, China, Indonesia. Basically every country outside of Africa. So many will experience a demographic collapse before the turn of the century.
2. "dunno, 8 billion sounds like a lot" Okay, then look at it like this: China has 1.4 billion people today. It's projected to have 700 (optimistic) million by 2100. If you think cutting a country's population in half, and making it older will be fine... It won't.
3. "just slaves for capitalism/why even have kids" True, and fewer and fewer young progressive people and more old conservative people who own all the houses, have all the money, and do all the voting will be juuuuust fine. Plus all those young people will have to support the old's retirement.
4. "we'll just increase immigration". Sure, that would work. For a while. In principle. Because people are so nice to other cultures and immigration, tho economically beneficial, is not at aaaaaall socially divisive.
5. "birth rate is stabilizing" No, that would be around 2.1 to maintain a healthy population. This is the definition of collapse = increasingly fewer able-bodied people.
6."people just don't want kids" No, on average they do. People love having kids. They can't afford them as they move into cities
It's gonna be very funny when people realize that a negative birthrate means less money for govormemt spending including environmental projects making the whole problem worse.
Being easier doesn't mean good and doesn't make you obligated to make kids. Even if it's easier than before it's still shit and no kid should face this bullshit, dystopian world
If you like āgoodā more than āeasyā, then name an age when it was better for a person to be born and why. Or was it always dystopian? And yeah, I am not saying that anyone is obligated to have kids.
As I said, it's indeed easier to stay alive, but it's not good. Why do we need to settle with easier and stop pursuing the good? Compared to other ages, this is the best age to be born, indeed, not saying otherwise, but again, it doesn't mean it's a good age, just less bad than others. Still shit.
Collapsing birth rate is the biggest threat to corporations and oligarchs, all of which steal their labor to make yet more money, and of course the military who need that cannon fodder for the next failed invasion we attempt.
Hence the **"Forced Birth"** and **"Not everyone needs to go to school"** and **"Child labor has gotten an undeservedly bad reputation"** policies enacted by many red states in America to keep the number of uneducated dolts in the minimum wage labor pool topped up.
And of course so severely limiting any opportunity for advancement beyond scraping by that young people are tempted to join the military as their only real option that's better than being homeless.
Probably not, rather climate change like u/Representative-Fig96 said. But there are 8 billion people in this world and overpopulation is if not already a looming threat. If you want kids, rather than bringing more people into this world it would be better to adopt.
Lol, the rich people are worried there's not enough workers to fulfill their Late Stage Capitalism.
Fuck 'em.
They'll be eaten.
The rest of us will be just fine.
collapsing birth rate is the biggest threat to the rich* they need new serfs to take advantage of. itās not a coincidence that the same states that have outlawed abortion and gay marriage(or at-least are extremely homophobic), are also trying to repeal child labor laws. homosexuality and abortion both help to control our population, and benefits the many, just not the few,
the few that happen to be in control of our world.
It may be a threat to the rich, but the economic system we live under insulates them from the fallout, so the people who will be the most harmed are already vulnerable and not the wealthy.
I only heard Billionaires talking this shit, they want more slaves, I ain't bringing a child to this world just to serve a mega corporation for their entire life's.
do you see what i do on those subs?
\- i dont agree with most things stated on those subs and spend most of the time arguing against what they say. i am part of those communities as i dont want to be another victim of echo chambers,
\- tbh i didnt even know i was in that commiespam one as i dont agree with the US centric point of view
\- i am also bi so why tthe hell wouldnt i be welcome on this sub? even if i was on the right (which i am not) why should that exclude me from a sub? go touch grass and talk to people that dont agree with you.
You know when a lot of conservatives talk about declining birth rates in 'western countries', it's because they're secretly afraid of the white race being genetically replaced by immigrants who come from countries with higher birth rates. It's called the Great Replacement conspiracy theory, and it's scary because it goes right into the highest levels of US government; this is a strong reason why many powerful people are trying to make it harder to get access to birth control, because they believe women must bear more children to 'save the white race'.
the people in charge want more people to work for them. they canāt convince people to have more babies if they straight up tell them thatās the goal. so they plant ideas like the great replacement theory in their heads so they support the idea that the people in charge want without knowing the actual reason. itās more mass brainwashing/manipulation than anything.
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Okay so point out a time in human history where society was not terrible. People always pulled through. If you donāt believe in your genepool that is an other topic.
8 fucking billion people on the planet rn, how tf it's collapsing?
The number of young people to old people is unbalanced. Normally, throughout history, there were fewer elders than young due to the fact that people died over time. However, now with low birth rates and modern medicine, there are more elderly than there are youthful. So give it a few decades as the old start to die and that 8 billion will drop. We're already seeing this in Italy and Japan, China just started losing population last year.
So the issue could be easily solved by simply eating the elderly
>So the issue could be easily solved by simply eating the elderly What if I told you those elderly we need to eat just so happen to be the same rich we have been needing to eat for a few centuries now?
š±it cannot be
But what about poor old people
Give them rich old people to eat (by consuming their meat they will grow in power and become normal old people, and if they become rich, theyāll just join the other in our plates. But at least they got a great meal)
Sibling: "where did grandpa go?" Me with a suspiciously grandpa shaped belly: "uhh i dont know"
i like how this implies you didn't bother chopping him into bits and just swallowed him whole completely like a snake lol
Vore fetish
Suspiciously eldlerly shaped bug jack
A modest proposal, I do say.
Majority of developing countries still have high birth rates and poor medicine, and thatās like 60-70%? of world population
And when they develop they're probably gonna face the same issues. It doesn't affect the whole world pupulation-wise but rather international-significance-wise. A collapse/stagnation of the biggest economies will be bad for the rest of the world too.
Right well to your point, the low birth rate issue is only an issue for poorer, but educated, white westerners. So.. the hype around the "collapsing birthrate" is really just .. you guessed it... Racism in disguise. This is racewar dog whistling bullshit IMO- Get people worked up that the white people will be overrun by POC and their children
Ah man. When did east Asia become white westerners?
When they formed close ties with capitalist western societies
Doesnāt that make the entirety of Africa, South America and South Asia White westerners?
I should have included an /s my bad
It isnāt your literally projecting your biases to find a non existent issue
This is only in the developed world, population rates are still rapidly growing in Africa, and to a lesser extant in Latin America & South Asia.
The only thing that will collapse is capitalism. Perpetual growth was never possible... We could all live comfortable lives without the need of always having to increase profits or output year after year.
All industrialized societies and humans in general have a need for infinite growth, capitalism just provides more markets and the concept of private property itās literally that simple.
I don't think humans from 200,000BC to 10,000BC would agree with you
How tf is that negative? Less overpopulation? Higher quality of life for the living? What you want us to be like sardines in a can?
but think of the economy!!!
Overpopulation is generally not really a problem. There are some areas with high population density but the problems those have are more structural than just the amount of people. Kowloon is probably an example of genuine over population in a given area where itās too densely populated. Thereās a lot of land in the world, weāre just set up in a way where we either donāt use it right or abuse it.
Also old people pretty much rule the world lmao
I see this as an absolute win!
What if I told you I don't care And also Fuck em
Its gonna fuck you harder when you want to retire but the workforce isnt putting enough tax money into the system for you to be able to.
Fuck Spez, Steven Huffman is a greedy pigboy
Yeah because mass immigration works out really well!
Social Security is literally almost ran out in America
Thanks to political meddling, not due to any population dynamics.
We'll figure it out. Shit has only gotten better.
No that's the government fucking us.
Because the only people concerned about it are also only concerned with the birthrate of white people compared to black and brown people.
All developed countries have declining birthrates, no matter the race
Yes
Everywhere else is soon gonna hit a declining birth rate. It's going to happen everywhere, some places just aren't there *yet*.
it's not, but it will peak and then probably decrease at like 11 billion people in which case we will have to deal with crumbling infrastructure and economies that were built for more people that can realistically maintain them. That said people get super dramatic over it, it won't be the end of the world but it's a problem that needs to be remedied that people have a hard time wrapping their head around outside of the idiot solution which is just hur durr have more kids.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> I just donāt understand how the rise of technology and the insane increases in efficiency donāt make up for that age balance. Because all the improvements go to capital. Who buys self-ordering kiosks for fast food? Capitalists. Who buys the self driving trucks? Capitalists. Who is going to pay for the rights to AI algorithms? Capitalists. All we get is whatever scraps that shake out once they've made their billions and (probably soon) trillions. Until we change that, we will _never_ get direct benefits from improvement in technology.
We (people who don't own businesses) get the costs, and the benefits are concentrated at the top.
It's "collapsing" in the sense that the economy is geared towards infinite growth. (Of population, profit, etc.) Because we live on a finite Earth, that's kind of a bitch.
Some of those people are old. and eventually many of those will be, although depends on region
A society isnāt reliant on its population to succeed or fail. I know this probably seems like it makes no sense, but you can have a dystopian society of billions or a successful society in the hundreds. It all comes down to tolerance.
Its a developed country issue. Japan and south Korea are the best examples since they have very little immigration. They're gonna have a unprecedented crisis within a few decades.
There's a small population of extremely wealthy people hoarding all the resources and leaving the rest worse off year by year. No one notices it because it is a slow process, akin to gently boiling a frog.
Birth rate isnāt even ācollapsingā itās stabilizing
But poor musk he wont get an exponentional growth to his underpaid workforce! Did you thought about those poor billionaire before choosing not to have childrens???
I hate Elon Musk as much as the next guy but I honestly doubt that he's so comically malicious that he knows birthrates going down isn't really a big deal and only wants more people to have children just so he can exploit them. He's probably just stupid and genuinely thinks it's a problem.
Idk honestly
It's fucking exhausting trying to understand if all the belligerent people in power are acting out of malice or stupidity, but it feels safer to attribute it to malice so we don't underestimate them. Being stupid with power is still more dangerous than being malicious without it imo.
Yeah, stupid or knowlegeable. Something called age dependency ratio is a thing, and will be taxing the shit out of what's left of some western nations' able bodied work force, while around 30% are over 65 yrs. There isn't even now enough medical staff, and people are getting their pensions later and later as the age limit is constantly raised to compensate. In finland my grandparents pension age is 62, mine is 70. Meanwhile taxes are likely to be raised to compensate lack of working economy amid public sector crisis, so less funding and economic prosperiety for us, the elderly need it. We simply don't have enough people to do the work needed (especially in relation to elderly pop), and immigration can only help so much and brings need to educate and socially integrate, something that hasnt happend in Sweden too well. Had we not had a recession in 1990, we probably wouldnt even be in this situation as we'd have bunch of youth around.
I guarantee he knows, but he's not going out of his way to engineer such a future.
Me looking at my nation's birth rate (I live in south korea)
I mean we won't wake up one day with 0 babies but its not exactly stabilizing either
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
> It's stabilizing not according to the numbers of people currently on Earth, but according to a more natural number. this makes no sense lol, there is no 'natural number' of humans in a developed industrialised world.
literally not true lol, most nations are heading towards birth rates below replacement
*developed nations, world wide it's very much true
Developing nations will become developed & hit the same fate
even developing nations like China are having birthrates fall. Having a rate that spikes then crashes is anything but stabilization. Nothing stable about a very high birthrate
Like in any facet of capitalism "when line not go up its bad"
For the love of god can you not? Less people having children is a sign of a collapsing society or at least a decline to a collapsing society.
Yeah bro? The west is falling?
right wingers: people aren't having enough kids, there won't be enough people those same fuckers: we can't let immigrants into our country
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
On the one hand, I agree with Carlin that we should all fuck each other until we're all the same kind of grayish/brownish color. On the other, what will happen to the Gingers? Do they become outcasts or superheroes?
Theyāll be the same as now? Gingers arenāt going extinct. Thatās just a myth propagated by racists.
I think you misunderstood. Even when we're all a homogenous color, there will still be Gingers. I was wondering what their status would be and if they'd become X-Men. Though I can see that paraphrasing a stand-up bit about race and adding an ambiguous bit to it wasn't a smart move. Ah well...
What is this truely god awful take? Why did people upvote this were they like āso true! Heckin Republicans are always likeā this isnāt a argument your just saying the stupidest shit ever to implant on your political āenemyā
Should we fix the issues that cause this decline or should we just import cheap labor that further exacerbates the problem? Like I get it that brown immigrants are heckin cute but why would ever side with big corpo?
even if the reasons why people don't have kids were aliviated, i still believe the population would decline i mean that's only a bad thing in a captitalist system that demands perpetual economic growth
Exactly. The numbers show that once people get educated they're less likely to have as many kids. Let's work off that assumption, and find ways we can do surplus labour with automation, or eliminate the need for that labour. Never-ending growth is the ideology of a cancer cell.
That really isnāt fixing the problem itās just a band aid and it has brings more negatives that pros since your letting large amounts of poor people who donāt have anything when coming to a country, their gonna drive up demand for good, housing, other essentials for a society, and especially for government services like healthcare or welfare. Itād just be better to fix things and raise the birth rate than try to have immigrants fill in the gaps for shit birth rates.
thats why imma just adopt
Also very likely passing on my multiple mental illnesses because my genes are shit is a good argument for adoption (or no kids at all)
same here frfr
Adoption is the only thing that comes into question for me personally. Would never do this to someone without their consent and I can't possibly get that consent ever.
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Boomers: Pay you more? No, no. You need to learn to save. Also boomers: Why are young people not having babies?
Context: that's an orphange/sweatshop
"Collapsing" birth rate is a white nationalist talking point. It's only concerning if you are concerned about the relative percentage of white people to black and brown people.
Without wading into white supremacists and eugenics freaks bullshit about demographic changes, there is a legitimate concern in terms of infrastructure and economic stability if we plateau at the 10-11 billion number and then population universally decreases. Those are questions about what do we do when a city's population gets cut by a quarter. What do we do about social security and care for the elderly? Resource production and distribution, etc.
Birth rates are declining everywhere
Birth rates have only been declining globally for about a decade, and have only just fallen again to the point it was at the end of the 90s when there was a similar decline, before shooting back up again. We're hitting birthrate stabilization, not collapse.
Not really, you canāt generalize this on a global scale, it just comes with demographic transition as a country develops. take France for example that has been going through this decline ever since world war 2, and compare it to most African countries. Also there is merit in saying that birth rates are collapsing in some nations. Japan and Korea already have a massive issue with the disproportionate amount of old people and China is about to as well.
Any source for āshooting back up againā?
https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/births-and-deaths-projected-to-2100?time=1950..2030
Itās just the number of total births, itās not birth rates. If a more numerous generation comes of age and starts having children, the number of births will increase. The ābouncing backā your graph shows are just baby boomers born in 1960s becoming adults and having children. And the same website has statistics for fertility rate. No ābouncing backā, just falling to the abyss since 1960s, as the post suggests https://ourworldindata.org/fertility-rate
Your own source states that the fertility rate has dropped from 4.5-7 children per woman to 2 children per woman i.e. a stable replacement rate, since it therefore takes 2 people to reproduce 2 children. Like I said, we are hitting birth rate stabilization, not collapse. Take also into account that mortality rates are also declining, which is why such rapid population growth has been seen in previous decades.
Except collapse goes by county. A country could be demographically collapsing even if fertility rate is in a steady replacement state. The biggest example is china, which is projected to go from 1.4b ppl to 800mil in the next 30-40 years.
It could also be concerning to notice that the number of humans on the planet is suddenly not growing anymore but I guess Iām just racist right?
On a planet with finite resources that already seems overburdened by the existing population, the population growth slowing down actually seems pretty comforting to me.
Also the overburdening from the existing population is not a result of overpopulation, itās a result of mismanagement. Weāve solved many of our overpopulation problems by providing social welfare programs. Think about Southeast Asia and you can see the effects of modern practices on large populations.
We can handle more people. We have estimates for 10.1B people being the maximum and based on these guysā track records I wouldnāt be too skeptical. They basically predicted the 8B in 2023 number in 2000.
It's not just that, smaller birth rate also means a generally older population, which might cause issues with stuff like pension. I'm not sayint it's right or wrong, I'm just saying there are more to this topic.
I agree that talking of a collapse can be more rhetorical. But there are many things to consider other than race, like age dependency ratio, taxing, pensions, education, healthcare and old people having more multimorbidity. This far technology has proven adequate to push back these problems, like increase efficiency but it wont be enough if you look at 50-year span for many countries with over 65yr pop being around 30%.
No it isn't. There's more white deaths than there are white births, so it isn't just relative to Black/Brown people.
What? Dude people literally arenāt having that many kids, the birth rate is collapsing to an extent though letās be grateful that weāre not china or just any East Asian country. Just Get this shit take outta here saying how we should fix the birth rate problem doesnāt make someone a kkk member.
white people existing is white nationalism ok
Seriously just why I have never seen such a dogshit take in my life, if this is your actual opinion please touch some damn grass.
Username checks out
Not necessarly, here in the basque country our birth rate is very law 0.8 per women because the spanish are actively making it lower and making people move out so that basque nationalists, who faught against the spanish for 50 years can't get any popular, it's a policy that dates back from the franco era
But if you don't have kids how will the next generation of billionaires who inherit their wealth from the current generation get even richer?
So sorry you live in Polandš
Collapsing society biggest threat to birth rate then
the population of the planet has doubled since 1970. i donāt think low birth rates will be a problem
Not the same for all countries, take japan or russia for example. China is an impending one as well.
China has already lost 1M people. I donāt know why people in this thread think itās āonly the white countriesā LatAm is going to start losing people too.
Because a lot of white nationalists use declining birthrates as a talking point, so people probably see that and assume its mainly a white thing.
Not wrong though since i believe some countries are having economic trouble from low birthrate.
Sure. But it's the dumbest solution to "just have more kids". That "solution" is actually just a way to delay dealing with the problem.
It's like sinking more money into an obvious ponzi scheme thinking that will fix the problem rather than just delay the inevitable and make the end result even worse!
Not really going by that solution means fixing the housing market and generally trying to fix all the things that make people have less kids.
Why is anti-natalism bad, again ?
People tend to not like anti natalists, rather than disliking the ideology in particular. Anti-natalists tend to just be incredibly bitter people who can't seem to figure out how their actions caused their situation, and, like an angry teenager, blame it all on their parents. They also tend to be hypocritical about choice. They will claim that you can't consent to life, and therefore it's immoral to give life. Then, mere seconds later, they'll happily say that abortion is okay, even though without action against it, the fetus will become a human, and by aborting it, you're making the decision of disallowing life from them without it's consent, which is no different than deciding that it should live without it's consent.
Most beautiful day in London
It is funny how the main reason a lot of people donāt want to have kids is economic insecurity. But people want to blame it on no fault divorce and queer people
this comment section just shows how little reddit understands about how the world works
what sick perverted fuck would choose to go against gods will and be straight
Its a issue in south korea
Kids are cool and our society will survive but itās not for everybody
Cart before the horse, the birth rate plummets as society collapses because no one wants to bring a child in to an unfair unstable society. Anyone telling you different is a capitalist propaganda machine.
then why was the birthrate so high during the guilded age in the USA?
*Gilded, as in, covered in gold. If you could point me to your data set I'd like to see what you're talking about. The earliest I can get birth rte data is starting in 1950.
[https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/](https://www.statista.com/statistics/1037156/crude-birth-rate-us-1800-2020/) [https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/t1x0197.pdf](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/t1x0197.pdf) [https://eh.net/encyclopedia/fertility-and-mortality-in-the-united-states/](https://eh.net/encyclopedia/fertility-and-mortality-in-the-united-states/) \- three sources which show a higher birth rate back then.
All three showing a significant decline from the previous year till an increase around post WW2 boom. Learn to read data you spastic.
All three showing birth rates much higher in the late 1800s and early 1900s than in the modern era. Learn to read data you spastic.
do you know what the gilded age was?
Maybe stop doomscrolling and actually learn something positive about the world
these posts really annoy me because they just say "whats the point the world bad duh" instead of actually doing stuff to help make the world a better place.
To be fair: some people just in general don't want children. Never had kids and never will but from what I've heard from parents, children are a fuck ton of work that in my opinion aren't worth the effort. I'll save money and have a happier life without kids involved in it.
They just want more slaves.
The eternal machine needs new slaves to exploit
the only case where exponential human growth matters is for corporate profits. for the average person, the less people on this planet the better, but then all the rich scumbags wouldnāt be able to make more and more money and so they spout nonsense like this.
Itās a common theme in societies that fall that as birth rates collapse the society itself collapses or declines. Having more kids and increasing the population is generally a good thing for everyone.
Whatever, industry is becoming more productive despite the smaller workforce
Can someone please tell me what the scene in the picture is from? I'm guessing a movie of some kind?
Blade Runner 2049
Real
Reality check: 1. "This is white-supremacist fear mongering about white replacement" --- No, below replacement (2.1) levels are now in most countries in the world. India, China, Indonesia. Basically every country outside of Africa. So many will experience a demographic collapse before the turn of the century. 2. "dunno, 8 billion sounds like a lot" Okay, then look at it like this: China has 1.4 billion people today. It's projected to have 700 (optimistic) million by 2100. If you think cutting a country's population in half, and making it older will be fine... It won't. 3. "just slaves for capitalism/why even have kids" True, and fewer and fewer young progressive people and more old conservative people who own all the houses, have all the money, and do all the voting will be juuuuust fine. Plus all those young people will have to support the old's retirement. 4. "we'll just increase immigration". Sure, that would work. For a while. In principle. Because people are so nice to other cultures and immigration, tho economically beneficial, is not at aaaaaall socially divisive. 5. "birth rate is stabilizing" No, that would be around 2.1 to maintain a healthy population. This is the definition of collapse = increasingly fewer able-bodied people. 6."people just don't want kids" No, on average they do. People love having kids. They can't afford them as they move into cities
another example of redditors not understanding how the world works.
It's gonna be very funny when people realize that a negative birthrate means less money for govormemt spending including environmental projects making the whole problem worse.
Name an age where life was any easier
Being easier doesn't mean good and doesn't make you obligated to make kids. Even if it's easier than before it's still shit and no kid should face this bullshit, dystopian world
If you like āgoodā more than āeasyā, then name an age when it was better for a person to be born and why. Or was it always dystopian? And yeah, I am not saying that anyone is obligated to have kids.
As I said, it's indeed easier to stay alive, but it's not good. Why do we need to settle with easier and stop pursuing the good? Compared to other ages, this is the best age to be born, indeed, not saying otherwise, but again, it doesn't mean it's a good age, just less bad than others. Still shit.
Itās p chill for me personally. I enjoy being alive. Would recommend.
Ah, just wait a little bit.
Collapsing birth rate is the biggest threat to corporations and oligarchs, all of which steal their labor to make yet more money, and of course the military who need that cannon fodder for the next failed invasion we attempt. Hence the **"Forced Birth"** and **"Not everyone needs to go to school"** and **"Child labor has gotten an undeservedly bad reputation"** policies enacted by many red states in America to keep the number of uneducated dolts in the minimum wage labor pool topped up. And of course so severely limiting any opportunity for advancement beyond scraping by that young people are tempted to join the military as their only real option that's better than being homeless.
I swear to fucking god if this is an antinatalist shill post
Climate change post
Ok
Probably not, rather climate change like u/Representative-Fig96 said. But there are 8 billion people in this world and overpopulation is if not already a looming threat. If you want kids, rather than bringing more people into this world it would be better to adopt.
Oh you angry now aren't?
Lol, the rich people are worried there's not enough workers to fulfill their Late Stage Capitalism. Fuck 'em. They'll be eaten. The rest of us will be just fine.
Man thatās some nihilistic shit, your ass just donāt want kids and thatās okay. No need to cope about it.
Thatās where a certain group of people come in Those who feel having children is a sin Or aroaces, theyāre chill
r/antinatalism
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Ok
time for purge beep boop
1950 we where 2,5 billion people. Now we are 8 Billion worldwide
8 billion people isn't enough? I don't even think we had enough resources for the world at 7
If you give birth to childern in todays society it means that you're a masochist unironically
A shrinking population is only bad for corporate profits. They will survive, so this only concerns executive pay. That's it...that's the crisis.
collapsing birth rate is the biggest threat to the rich* they need new serfs to take advantage of. itās not a coincidence that the same states that have outlawed abortion and gay marriage(or at-least are extremely homophobic), are also trying to repeal child labor laws. homosexuality and abortion both help to control our population, and benefits the many, just not the few, the few that happen to be in control of our world.
It may be a threat to the rich, but the economic system we live under insulates them from the fallout, so the people who will be the most harmed are already vulnerable and not the wealthy.
if the rich allegedly care so much about it why dont they do anything for it
they obviously do. they lobby to create laws that will increase the population, like the ones iāve already stated.
not everyone lives in the us š
r/antinatalism
I only heard Billionaires talking this shit, they want more slaves, I ain't bringing a child to this world just to serve a mega corporation for their entire life's.
what world are you living in?
A third world one. Also >pcm user >Enoughcommiespam user Gtfo of this sub, you are not welcome on 196 variants.
do you see what i do on those subs? \- i dont agree with most things stated on those subs and spend most of the time arguing against what they say. i am part of those communities as i dont want to be another victim of echo chambers, \- tbh i didnt even know i was in that commiespam one as i dont agree with the US centric point of view \- i am also bi so why tthe hell wouldnt i be welcome on this sub? even if i was on the right (which i am not) why should that exclude me from a sub? go touch grass and talk to people that dont agree with you.
Tldr Block
capitalists when they look into the future and see theyāll have less slaves to do their work for them: ācollapsing birth rates bad!!!ā
in no capitalist country so far i ve seen an increase in the birth rates in the last decades
You know when a lot of conservatives talk about declining birth rates in 'western countries', it's because they're secretly afraid of the white race being genetically replaced by immigrants who come from countries with higher birth rates. It's called the Great Replacement conspiracy theory, and it's scary because it goes right into the highest levels of US government; this is a strong reason why many powerful people are trying to make it harder to get access to birth control, because they believe women must bear more children to 'save the white race'.
the people in charge want more people to work for them. they canāt convince people to have more babies if they straight up tell them thatās the goal. so they plant ideas like the great replacement theory in their heads so they support the idea that the people in charge want without knowing the actual reason. itās more mass brainwashing/manipulation than anything.
thatās fineā¦ each year we gain abt 80 million people so fuxk em
Overdramatic
-Elon Musk
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Okay so point out a time in human history where society was not terrible. People always pulled through. If you donāt believe in your genepool that is an other topic.