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Religion in Egypt is usually not about religion but rather social and cultural norms. So the average Egyptian would care less for scholars and still follow what they were fed as a child.
I assume your question is "why would people respond as such although korayema's opinion is 'religiously correct'"?
It's always like that. There's a tendency among less educated people to look for the most extreme stance and hold it as though it is the "religiously correct" position. Why?
I tend to think the reason is that this tendency comes from a deep seated feeling of defeat and being undermined as a civilization/ religious group. So this tendency is to try and overcompensate.
The vast, vast majority of Egyptians who are homophobic, use religion as a scapegoat for their own beliefs. I don't know how many conversations I've had with people who believe that being homosexual automatically takes you out of the fold of Islam, simply because they see it *personally* repulsive, and can't actually back it up with any Hadith or Aya.
I can back something up with a hadith
قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: أيما أمرئ قال لأخيه يا كافر فقد باء بها أحدهما، إن كان كما قال، وإلا رجعت عليه. رواه البخاري ومسلم.
قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: ومن دعا رجلا بالكفر أو قال عدو الله وليس كذلك إلا حار عليه. رواه مسلم.
الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: "تكفير المسلم كقتله" (رواه البخاري) .
فعلاً أنا عايز أوضحلكم كم كراهية الناس للمثليين بحجة الدين لدرجة التكفير في بعض الأحيان، تخيل لدرجة إنهم ممكن يكفروا نفسهم.
انا كمان مسلم متدين ومش مثلي، ولكن بحب أفكر بعقلي مش بمشاعري. إبقا قابلني لو أي حد عرف يقيم الحد الشرعي على إتنين بيعملوا عمل قوم لوط. شوف هتجيب الأربع شهود منين. يبقا مش كل keyboard warrior يكتبلي سطرين حافظهم ويقول "ده شرع ربنا" وهو مش فاقه، لكن دلدول فكر المجتمع إللي حواليه.
As an atheist I don't think this a 100% religion problem (there's a part though)
Bullying and "sarsaga" is becoming the norm in egypt lack of empathy and respect and trust and hating and bullying anything and anyone not following the social norms has become a hobby for people to express their "openion" (aka hate speech)
And they do that because they don't/can't really have an openion about anything else in life they can't criticize the government so they started to criticize basically everything else it's like a compensation mechanism
Once you know a homosexual in person, your stance on this stuff usually softens, because homosexuality ceases to be a concept or a political agenda and morphes into real human personal problems.
No one cleric can adequately sum up the views of billions of Muslims.
I think this article is a good opening into views on LGBTQ Muslims, and stances on transgenderism as well as homosexuality in the diverse Muslim communities.
[https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam](https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam)
The reality is that there are lots of gay Muslims. The Quran is very unclear on homosexuality, since it doesn't actually mention 'homosexuality' as a concept. In my view, there are vague references to Lot, the people of Lot, and so on.
Why would God create gay Muslims, if homosexuality is a sin?
What? The Quran and the hadiths are crystal clear on the topic of homosexuality.
And what even is this argument? Why did god create (*insert sin*) if (*insert sin*) was a sin? Really?
A sin isn't a person. I would say that the Quran isn't crystal clear, seeing as the Quran doesn't say something direct like. "Homosexuality is a sin".
When it comes to alcohol, the Quran is much more clear. When it comes to sins like killing, the Quran is much more clear. Like I said, vague references to Lot, the people of Lot, and themes like lust are mentioned, and everyone assumes that the Quran is referring to gay people indirectly in those verses. Could it be clearer? absolutely.
اتاتون الذكران من العالمين .. و تذرون ما خلق لكم ربكم من ازواجكم بل انتم قوم عادون.
It doesn't get anymore clearer than that man. Either you don't know Arabic or you're misunderstanding the word vague
> Like I said, vague references to Lot, the people of Lot, and themes like lust are mentioned, and everyone assumes that the Quran is referring to gay people indirectly in those verses. Could it be clearer? absolutely.
In 7 : 81
Allah says,"إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةًۭ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ ۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌۭ مُّسْرِفُونَ".
Which translates to "Surely you indeed come up with lust to men, apart from (i.e. instead of) women; no indeed, you are an extravagant people." (i.e., exceeding the limits (of decency)".
Seems like a criticism of "coming up with lust to men" not a criticism of homosexuality, because homosexuality isn't the same thing as "coming up to men with lust".
Ohhhhhh you still think that there is a “gay gene”?
[here’s nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6)
The Quran is absolutely clear on the subject. If you still for some reason think that it’s not clear just read the hadiths on that subject.
Congrats. You didn't read the very article you shared or you didn't understand it. You pretty much slapped yourself in the face. Sorry to break it to you but there are actually SEVERAL genes which determine sexuality.
[https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.aat7693](https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.aat7693)
Gay is not an act. Gay is when your idea of your soulmate is of the same sex and gender as you. That is a pretty integral part of who you are because it covers your romantic aspirations.
اللواط حده القتل . دا الدين اللي نازل من السما من عند خالق الكون واللي خلق البشر وبيقولهم يعملو ايه . ليه نقاش كتير بقى ؟ انا شايف ان الناس جبانه ومش عايزه تقول ان الدين غلط مش اكتر
Religion is man-made fiction. People, specifically believers, could believe ALL religions are non-sense, or they could believe that all but one religion are non-sense. There's over 4000 religions but of course the common understanding in Egypt is that only 3 are important, the ones made up in the middle east. All of them think they are right and others are wrong. To me that logic is very "stonks".
You follow that religion because you're born into it and no other reason. No. Other. Reason. Same as -almost- everyone else. Literally. You don't know nearly half as much of other religions yet you believe you're following the "right" one.
Few truly question that concept (imo), and dive deeper into it to understand why religions were truly important once upon a time, they were key element to human success in many areas of life .. but they do more harm than good now.
My GAY life experience improved drastically when I realized that. The brainwashing we experience in Egypt growing up muslims is so intense and it took a lot of ups and downs (mentally) to get to where I am. Happy. Confident. Socially adept.
I am so glad to see mosques die in participation numbers over the years .. similar to how churches and other "houses of the one true God" are also dying. People are slowly coming to that realization whether they notice it or not.
With all that being said, if religion is your life line and it keeps you sane, safe, secure in yourself and passionate about life ... Then I'm genuinely happy for you.
That last paragraph. If only everyone followed that point of view... the world would be a better place. Live and let live. Let people do whatever makes them happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
People never began to open with general tolerance, and the idea that the LGBTQ community has began a crusade/power trip is a complete projection.
The culture wars were started by conservatives and what you are seeing is the LGBTQ community, and the people inside inside it, defend their right to literally exist.
Give me a source that says they fought for religious institutions to recognize their gay marriage.
It is 100% projection when you make stuff up. I've been in the LGBTQ community for decades and absolutely nobody gives a shot about religious recognition of marriages.
That's not what I said. I said nobody in the LGBTQ community is making religious recognition a part of campaigning for their rights.
It may shock you, but some religious institutions are actually getting with the times and recognizing LGBTQ+ marriages without being forced to.
Also, watch your mouth.
Why do they need to stay I their respectful lanes, and who decided what lanes those are? You? And why should we listen to you, or religion or anything else?
I don't follow a religion because I am born into it, au contraire, I follow it beacuse I choose to, big difference.
But I do find your last paragraph and stance is intresting too.
How do you know that? Isn't it a huge coincidence that out of all the thousands of religions out there, you choose exactly the one that also your parents follow and their parents and everyone around you? If you really are free to choose, why did you not choose something more exotic and uncommon like North American tribal beliefs or ancient Norse religion?
Of course it is only the influence of your social environment which determines if you believe and what you believe.
How did you know that my parents followed it? You started tour argument with a preposition about a stranger. Also, do disprove your point, check other subs of reverts and islam.
And even if they do, I understand your point, but:
I know that because I at certain point in my life I became a cynic and started to doubt everything, I then started reading about other religions, talking with different people from different cultures and religions, I lived and studied abroad in more or less atheist countries for years, I talked with people from different science fields, read books about science, god, belifes, and seen some debates, read about logic, and philosophy, arguments, and of course the Quran more than once, of course I have my doubts about certain things, wordings, and ideas, and that is fine by me, I am learning and keep learning so it is a process, like any topic you learn about, trying not to fall into the dunning kruger learning scheme of thinking that Beacuse I read something now I know the full topic.
and then finally chose Islam as the nearest thing to my heart and logic.
It not how you feel it's how you act, you feel attracted to the same ~~sex~~, that's not a sin, that's just god testing you.
You tried ~~gay~~ ~~sex~~ but wasn't caught and nobody knew, it's between you and Allah
You try to go public and support the "pride", Don't expect less than disrespect whipping and jailing plus a eternity in hell if you claim that it's not a sin
Listen it was wrong in the time of the prophet, it's a sin, guess what, so is having sex with a women out of wedlock. El zani wa zaniya, one ruling but if it's a same sex thing then Surat lout and other surats I can't summon of the top of my head do say it's a major sin. Now, many clerics say if it's against the Quran it's kufr, that is actually an argument that can be made for a male and female couple out of wedlock. It's hard to do a ruling. I am a Muslim and I am against it because of what it might cause in the future to our social structure. I live in the UK and it's crazy here, they are exposing kids at a really young age to LGBTQ stuff and it wrong, I'd hate for it to happen in Muslim countries, I can see our social structure really collapse because of it. Here we have gay priests, women priests and the are going into different aspects of society. I fear the day we'll have a gay Imam promoting this madness and changing the faith into something that they could twist and demolish. I can see it happening in the next decade or two. Really scary stuff.
It's not strawmanning when the majority of Muslims absolutely hate homosexuality and anything related to LGBTQ. As a non-mod, you don't see the massive amount of homophobic comments that are removed and how often there is a specific religious aspect to it.
Because insurgent/violent groups go out and kill people and use the religion as a justification, whereas atheists don't go and kill people because they're believers. I think thats a pretty clear distinction.
**Participation Notice:** Some topics on this subreddit have been known to attract problematic users. As such, we have implemented a trial run of opt-in restrictive flairs that limit the participation. We ask that you please remember the human, and uphold Reddit and Subreddit rules. The Discussion+ flair automatically puts all comments from new accounts, accounts of low karma, accounts of negative karma on r/Egypt, accounts with unverified email accounts, unsubscribed accounts to r/Egypt and content that includes specific keywords (such as slurs) on hold for moderation review before they are visible for all users. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Egypt) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Religion in Egypt is usually not about religion but rather social and cultural norms. So the average Egyptian would care less for scholars and still follow what they were fed as a child.
>Religion in Egypt is usually not about religion but rather social and cultural norms. This, pretty much this.
Religion is social and cultural norms.
Religion IS a cultural and social norm too...
I assume your question is "why would people respond as such although korayema's opinion is 'religiously correct'"? It's always like that. There's a tendency among less educated people to look for the most extreme stance and hold it as though it is the "religiously correct" position. Why? I tend to think the reason is that this tendency comes from a deep seated feeling of defeat and being undermined as a civilization/ religious group. So this tendency is to try and overcompensate.
I gotta say, as a Muslim myself, I really hate how Muslims treat this topic. Eastern Muslims, mostly.
Elaborate, how do they treat it?
In some places culture and society norms are just given the upper hand when it comes to religion talk
The vast, vast majority of Egyptians who are homophobic, use religion as a scapegoat for their own beliefs. I don't know how many conversations I've had with people who believe that being homosexual automatically takes you out of the fold of Islam, simply because they see it *personally* repulsive, and can't actually back it up with any Hadith or Aya. I can back something up with a hadith قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: أيما أمرئ قال لأخيه يا كافر فقد باء بها أحدهما، إن كان كما قال، وإلا رجعت عليه. رواه البخاري ومسلم. قول النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم: ومن دعا رجلا بالكفر أو قال عدو الله وليس كذلك إلا حار عليه. رواه مسلم. الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم قال: "تكفير المسلم كقتله" (رواه البخاري) . فعلاً أنا عايز أوضحلكم كم كراهية الناس للمثليين بحجة الدين لدرجة التكفير في بعض الأحيان، تخيل لدرجة إنهم ممكن يكفروا نفسهم. انا كمان مسلم متدين ومش مثلي، ولكن بحب أفكر بعقلي مش بمشاعري. إبقا قابلني لو أي حد عرف يقيم الحد الشرعي على إتنين بيعملوا عمل قوم لوط. شوف هتجيب الأربع شهود منين. يبقا مش كل keyboard warrior يكتبلي سطرين حافظهم ويقول "ده شرع ربنا" وهو مش فاقه، لكن دلدول فكر المجتمع إللي حواليه.
As an atheist I don't think this a 100% religion problem (there's a part though) Bullying and "sarsaga" is becoming the norm in egypt lack of empathy and respect and trust and hating and bullying anything and anyone not following the social norms has become a hobby for people to express their "openion" (aka hate speech) And they do that because they don't/can't really have an openion about anything else in life they can't criticize the government so they started to criticize basically everything else it's like a compensation mechanism
Once you know a homosexual in person, your stance on this stuff usually softens, because homosexuality ceases to be a concept or a political agenda and morphes into real human personal problems.
As long as it’s not my ass I don’t mind
There is a lot of misconception generally because people mix between religion and culture.
No one cleric can adequately sum up the views of billions of Muslims. I think this article is a good opening into views on LGBTQ Muslims, and stances on transgenderism as well as homosexuality in the diverse Muslim communities. [https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam](https://www.hrc.org/resources/stances-of-faiths-on-lgbt-issues-islam) The reality is that there are lots of gay Muslims. The Quran is very unclear on homosexuality, since it doesn't actually mention 'homosexuality' as a concept. In my view, there are vague references to Lot, the people of Lot, and so on. Why would God create gay Muslims, if homosexuality is a sin?
What? The Quran and the hadiths are crystal clear on the topic of homosexuality. And what even is this argument? Why did god create (*insert sin*) if (*insert sin*) was a sin? Really?
A sin isn't a person. I would say that the Quran isn't crystal clear, seeing as the Quran doesn't say something direct like. "Homosexuality is a sin". When it comes to alcohol, the Quran is much more clear. When it comes to sins like killing, the Quran is much more clear. Like I said, vague references to Lot, the people of Lot, and themes like lust are mentioned, and everyone assumes that the Quran is referring to gay people indirectly in those verses. Could it be clearer? absolutely.
اتاتون الذكران من العالمين .. و تذرون ما خلق لكم ربكم من ازواجكم بل انتم قوم عادون. It doesn't get anymore clearer than that man. Either you don't know Arabic or you're misunderstanding the word vague
> Like I said, vague references to Lot, the people of Lot, and themes like lust are mentioned, and everyone assumes that the Quran is referring to gay people indirectly in those verses. Could it be clearer? absolutely. In 7 : 81 Allah says,"إِنَّكُمْ لَتَأْتُونَ ٱلرِّجَالَ شَهْوَةًۭ مِّن دُونِ ٱلنِّسَآءِ ۚ بَلْ أَنتُمْ قَوْمٌۭ مُّسْرِفُونَ". Which translates to "Surely you indeed come up with lust to men, apart from (i.e. instead of) women; no indeed, you are an extravagant people." (i.e., exceeding the limits (of decency)".
Seems like a criticism of "coming up with lust to men" not a criticism of homosexuality, because homosexuality isn't the same thing as "coming up to men with lust".
Ohhhhhh you still think that there is a “gay gene”? [here’s nature](https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02585-6) The Quran is absolutely clear on the subject. If you still for some reason think that it’s not clear just read the hadiths on that subject.
Congrats. You didn't read the very article you shared or you didn't understand it. You pretty much slapped yourself in the face. Sorry to break it to you but there are actually SEVERAL genes which determine sexuality. [https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.aat7693](https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.aat7693)
No, I think that there is a gay *person.*
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Gay is not an act. Gay is when your idea of your soulmate is of the same sex and gender as you. That is a pretty integral part of who you are because it covers your romantic aspirations.
[удалено]
comparing a gay person with a murderer is ignorant
اللواط حده القتل . دا الدين اللي نازل من السما من عند خالق الكون واللي خلق البشر وبيقولهم يعملو ايه . ليه نقاش كتير بقى ؟ انا شايف ان الناس جبانه ومش عايزه تقول ان الدين غلط مش اكتر
فيه فرق إنك تقول لحد الدين بيقول أعمل كذه و إنك تقول لا لازم تعمل كذه بمزجك أو غصب عنك و لو معملتش هتتحبس و تتقتل
Religion is man-made fiction. People, specifically believers, could believe ALL religions are non-sense, or they could believe that all but one religion are non-sense. There's over 4000 religions but of course the common understanding in Egypt is that only 3 are important, the ones made up in the middle east. All of them think they are right and others are wrong. To me that logic is very "stonks". You follow that religion because you're born into it and no other reason. No. Other. Reason. Same as -almost- everyone else. Literally. You don't know nearly half as much of other religions yet you believe you're following the "right" one. Few truly question that concept (imo), and dive deeper into it to understand why religions were truly important once upon a time, they were key element to human success in many areas of life .. but they do more harm than good now. My GAY life experience improved drastically when I realized that. The brainwashing we experience in Egypt growing up muslims is so intense and it took a lot of ups and downs (mentally) to get to where I am. Happy. Confident. Socially adept. I am so glad to see mosques die in participation numbers over the years .. similar to how churches and other "houses of the one true God" are also dying. People are slowly coming to that realization whether they notice it or not. With all that being said, if religion is your life line and it keeps you sane, safe, secure in yourself and passionate about life ... Then I'm genuinely happy for you.
That last paragraph. If only everyone followed that point of view... the world would be a better place. Live and let live. Let people do whatever makes them happy as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.
[удалено]
People never began to open with general tolerance, and the idea that the LGBTQ community has began a crusade/power trip is a complete projection. The culture wars were started by conservatives and what you are seeing is the LGBTQ community, and the people inside inside it, defend their right to literally exist.
[удалено]
Give me a source that says they fought for religious institutions to recognize their gay marriage. It is 100% projection when you make stuff up. I've been in the LGBTQ community for decades and absolutely nobody gives a shot about religious recognition of marriages.
[удалено]
That's not what I said. I said nobody in the LGBTQ community is making religious recognition a part of campaigning for their rights. It may shock you, but some religious institutions are actually getting with the times and recognizing LGBTQ+ marriages without being forced to. Also, watch your mouth.
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Why do they need to stay I their respectful lanes, and who decided what lanes those are? You? And why should we listen to you, or religion or anything else?
r/im14andthisisdeep
I don't follow a religion because I am born into it, au contraire, I follow it beacuse I choose to, big difference. But I do find your last paragraph and stance is intresting too.
How do you know that? Isn't it a huge coincidence that out of all the thousands of religions out there, you choose exactly the one that also your parents follow and their parents and everyone around you? If you really are free to choose, why did you not choose something more exotic and uncommon like North American tribal beliefs or ancient Norse religion? Of course it is only the influence of your social environment which determines if you believe and what you believe.
How did you know that my parents followed it? You started tour argument with a preposition about a stranger. Also, do disprove your point, check other subs of reverts and islam. And even if they do, I understand your point, but: I know that because I at certain point in my life I became a cynic and started to doubt everything, I then started reading about other religions, talking with different people from different cultures and religions, I lived and studied abroad in more or less atheist countries for years, I talked with people from different science fields, read books about science, god, belifes, and seen some debates, read about logic, and philosophy, arguments, and of course the Quran more than once, of course I have my doubts about certain things, wordings, and ideas, and that is fine by me, I am learning and keep learning so it is a process, like any topic you learn about, trying not to fall into the dunning kruger learning scheme of thinking that Beacuse I read something now I know the full topic. and then finally chose Islam as the nearest thing to my heart and logic.
It not how you feel it's how you act, you feel attracted to the same ~~sex~~, that's not a sin, that's just god testing you. You tried ~~gay~~ ~~sex~~ but wasn't caught and nobody knew, it's between you and Allah You try to go public and support the "pride", Don't expect less than disrespect whipping and jailing plus a eternity in hell if you claim that it's not a sin
Listen it was wrong in the time of the prophet, it's a sin, guess what, so is having sex with a women out of wedlock. El zani wa zaniya, one ruling but if it's a same sex thing then Surat lout and other surats I can't summon of the top of my head do say it's a major sin. Now, many clerics say if it's against the Quran it's kufr, that is actually an argument that can be made for a male and female couple out of wedlock. It's hard to do a ruling. I am a Muslim and I am against it because of what it might cause in the future to our social structure. I live in the UK and it's crazy here, they are exposing kids at a really young age to LGBTQ stuff and it wrong, I'd hate for it to happen in Muslim countries, I can see our social structure really collapse because of it. Here we have gay priests, women priests and the are going into different aspects of society. I fear the day we'll have a gay Imam promoting this madness and changing the faith into something that they could twist and demolish. I can see it happening in the next decade or two. Really scary stuff.
> I'm a devout Muslim and carry the same opinion as the religion itself you want them dead huh?
are you referencing the people of lut or the supposed non-secular laws in parts of the middle east
what's the religion's opinion that you also have?
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It's not strawmanning when the majority of Muslims absolutely hate homosexuality and anything related to LGBTQ. As a non-mod, you don't see the massive amount of homophobic comments that are removed and how often there is a specific religious aspect to it.
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Because insurgent/violent groups go out and kill people and use the religion as a justification, whereas atheists don't go and kill people because they're believers. I think thats a pretty clear distinction.