The following submission statement was provided by /u/chrisdh79:
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From the article: The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today finalized Congressionally-mandated energy-efficiency standards for a range of residential water heaters to save American households approximately $7.6 billion per year on their energy and water bills, while significantly cutting energy waste and harmful carbon pollution. The final standards for residential water heaters align with recommendations from various stakeholders, including efficiency and environmental advocates, the Consumer Federation of America, and a leading U.S. water heater manufacturer. The standards would require the most common-sized electric water heaters to achieve efficiency gains with heat pump technology, helping to accelerate the deployment of this cost-effective, clean energy technology while also reducing strain on the electric grid. Over 30 years of shipments, these updated standards are expected to save Americans $124 billion on their energy bills and reduce 332 million metric tons of dangerous carbon dioxide emissions—equivalent to the combined annual emissions of nearly 43 million homes.
“Almost every U.S. household has a water heater, and for too long outdated energy efficiency standards have led to higher utility bills for families,” said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm. “The Biden-Harris Administration is continuing to put American consumers first with new, effective rules—supported by industry—that save both energy and money.”
DOE last updated residential water heater efficiency standards, which are required by Congress, in 2010. Compliance will be required starting in 2029 for the new standards adopted today, which would result in over 50% of the newly manufactured electric storage water heaters to utilize heat pump technology, compared to 3% today. Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters with electric heat pump water heaters meeting the new standards would save consumers approximately $1,800 on their utility bills, on average, over the life of the appliance, with total savings helping low-income households, who spend a higher percentage of their income on utility bills in particular.
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1ciemrz/doe_finalizes_efficiency_standards_for_water/l28ivkn/
I installed a heat pump water heater 7 months ago. In the process, I moved the water heater to a new location in my basement which is closer to the kitchen sink and both bathrooms. The reduction in my power bill was both immediate and very noticeable, but not quite as much as I had expected. My pay-back is 9 years meaning it will have saved enough to pay back the cost plus installation in 9 years. Why is it less than expected? I installed a 65 gallon because my home is built for 4 to 6 inhabitants while I actually live here alone. Less usage means overall savings are lower.
Moving the water heater was a no-brainer in my case. I put the water heater right beside an external drain which I was able to use for both overflow and pressure release outlets. It is within 8 feet of my main water lines meaning minimal work to re-plumb. It is in my basement which has plenty of volume to support the air flow requirements. I did not require a pressure expansion tank as I have a 40 gallon water storage tank. I still would not rate this as a project for most home-owners. It just happened to be fairly easy to set up in my particular circumstances. I even re-routed my 220V electric wires to the new location with minimal difficulty.
I set temperature at 125F which is my preferred temperature.
I'm in a cold climate, the WH is between the furnace and the kitchen stairs. It's under the main hallway. I have not heard the WH making noise a single time since it's been installed.
It's also doing closed-system heat, so it just pulls in heat from the basement and and leaks/losses go back into the basement.
That's pretty neat actually. Sort of indirect geothermal, since the temperature down there must be relatively stable due to the soil surrounding the basement.
I guess in theory you will gradually reduce the soil temperature around the basement, but not by any meaningful amount due to how much earth there is.
And also not that much will come out of the soil since there's an oil burner down there hooked up to a forced air system, and all that's 10' from the water heater. It gets warm in summer and cool in winter, but never below 50-60°F.
I'm in southern Tennessee so relatively warm. My basement temperature ranges between 50F in winter and 65F summer.
I can hear it as a slight hum about 1/10 as loud as my heat pump. Others have said it is not audible but their hearing is not as acute as mine. It runs on average 2 or 3 times per day during normal usage, and 4 times when I use the washing machine.
did you include the projected increases in energy costs based on past energy bills over time or just the current cost of electricity? Also would you of had to replace the water heater at some time anyway? the price difference between regular insulation of a regular water heater vs a heat pump water heater and all that.
The US resistance to any kind of environmental progress that don't bring immediate profit always baffle me. Futurology didn't disappoint here as usual ...
Might want to narrow your resistance group here. Many of us want this progress. Conservatives will shit the bed like they did over LED lightbulbs and simultaneously complain about and seek govt protections from China's EVs.
You know the funny thing about the LED lightbulbs, the one who passed it were the conservatives themselves. They also created the EPA. EV tax credits were also passed by them. So what is with the contradiction of them passing things then spending decades to get rid of them?
Fact of the matter is, they've been hijacked by corporate interests that have flipped their morals upside down to favor whatever special interest want
Yeah but even outside of the conservative/liberal divide, my experience is that a lot of US people will choose convenience over environment way too often.
Last time I was visiting, I went to shop at the supermarket with a bleeding heart democrat friend. The amount of whining there was about the fact that they were phasing out disposable plastic bags was depressing. I lived in the US for a while and those kind of reactions always puzzled me.
But at the end of the day, the bags were being banned. So presumably most people in that area were fine with it, as demonstrated by voting for politicians who did it.
Either that person wasn't representative, or they were just doing the normal human grousing about an inconvenience (while not actually wanting to repeal the regulation).
Conservatives want progress. They just don't want it mandated at them. You want more efficient water heaters? Cool. You tell me I have to pay X additional because you think I should, we have a problem.
Paranoia mostly. I do some work in sustainability consulting and I’ve noticed that when I talk about it on Reddit sometimes it can draw…odd activity. Especially in conversations about home electrification. so I just try to steer clear of the astroturfing if I can.
you really need technology to drive progress not simply regulation. regulation can drive technology but its not always the case. since they changed the gallons per flush for toilets technology for flushing has not improved, so we are just having to flush like 4x now. its a waste of time and doesn't save on water. in fact often it uses more ware. if they simply mandated 2 settings for flushes - then it will save water as you can use the less water setting most of the time. anyways, well though out regulation coupled with technology that enables change is what we need. blanket regulations are harder to accept.
its the same with removal of CFCs. it worked because a replacement technology was available, without the tech, the regulation would have been impossible.
You do realize that functional low flush toilets (not the crappy retrofits that were sold for a few years) have been out for 30 years now.
That’s a shitty (hon hon hon) example to take.
You're not going to save anything unless the cost of these water heaters comes down.
I'm a plumber, a 40 gal electric wh costs about 600 dollars, a heat pump hybrid 40 gal is 3000.
If you need a repair on a regular electric water heater it is usually straightforward and inexpensive.
If your hybrid breaks down get out your checkbook.
I'm not against changes to help save energy, but this is the same as the electric car argument, the costs need to come down for the average person to adopt this technology.
It’s not as expensive as you think.
A Rheem 40 gallon heat pump hybrid is $1600 from Home Depot, and many places have some kind of rebate ($500 where I live). Also, very shortly there will be federal rebates for $1500 per home to upgrade your hot water tanks - from the “inflation reduction act”..
I'm Canadian, sorry I know I'm commenting on an American policy thread. I checked my home depot and it was 3 grand.
Honestly that sounds great that they are coming down in cost, but they will cost more to repair and they require a drain, and adequate airflow and space around the water heater so it's not a solution for everyone.
That’s great and all but heat pump hot water tanks require a significant cubic footage to operate efficiently. Sometimes a gas on demand system makes the most sense.
One good thing about the regulations is that the increased volume should help drive prices down. I don’t think they were talking about the physical size of the device. Rather the size of the area it’s in to pull heat from.
Heat pumps operate by literally moving heat. A small area means there’s less heat to move so the heat pump has to work harder which means it’s less efficient.
I dont have the necessary square footage, which means Id have to have a louvred door which means more noise in the surrounding areas.
I also dont have a drain for it to drain, sooo
The condenser goes on the outside so you shouldn’t need a drain. You would need an indoor condenser if it was cooling the water but since it is only heating, only outdoor condensation would occur.
Out of the many models on the market, I think only one is a split system with outdoor evaporator (not condenser, that's the part that gets hot). Most of them just have the heat pump, evaporator, and other components right on top of the tank.
Maybe in the US, in Europe the great majority of heat pumps have outdoor units.
The big difference is between split systems (where the gas is moved between the outside unit and the internal one) and "mono block" (where all is in the outside unit and the water already hot is moved between the outside and the inside units).
You’re proposing introducing a pump to raise the pressure of the condensate to 60+ psi and injecting it into the potable water system?
Having seen how clean the coil on my heat pump is I can’t imagine what could go wrong with that.
And while I agree individuals and households should have efficiency and lower bills.
The carbon footprint is incredibly small compared to that of businesses and BIG business which output far more in a year than individuals in a lifetime.
I'm not saying "don't do the thing which helps individuals", but I am saying "big business is where there needs to be a major focus to really make a big impact".
That's actually incorrect though. About 50% of all primary energy used in the US is electricity, heating fuel, and transportation fuel that is used in residential buildings or personnel vehicles.
Not saying we shouldn't hold businesses accountable - especially those that try to hide emissions or where there could be effective alternatives. But the narrative that most of the emissions come from highly profitable companies is false.
Afaik from my minimal knowledge of these systems as a sustainability consultant, the ideal answer for smaller residences where having individual heat pumps won't be feasible is ambient loops of lthw with smaller water to water heat pumps in each residence to provide the necessary hot water, as someone who works in the sector in the UK the US seems to be pretty far behind on this front, building new residences with Gas installations is becoming increasingly difficult in the UK due to planning regulation
That does not seem right. When I look for hybrid systems, some look a bit bigger than my current gas heater, but not even all of them. Sure, maybe the larger the more efficient, but as long as they are already more efficient/cheaper than my old system (+environment friendly), that's great.
I mean we have heat pumps in our fridges and dryers, I would assume you can have a small one connected to a moderately sized water tank for quick usage. And if you require a lot of hot water, then that's where the hybrid side kicks in.
It's not even referring to the size of the device. Heat pump water heaters will cool the room they are in. If that room is not big enough, it will get very cold and the system does not perform as well, so manufacturers recommend they only be installed in large enough spaces.
Free air conditioning. In a lot of places, and most of the year, this is an upside.
Otherwise just chuck all your server equipment and bitcoin miners in the room with heat pumped water heater.
"which would result in over 50% of the newly manufactured electric storage water heaters to utilize heat pump technology, compared to 3% today."
Did you read the article.
Also American homes are not lacking in square footage, generally. They're huge on average.
The houses are big but the spaces for the water heater generally are not. If you worked in construction, you'd know that.
And it turns out that it's not often cost effective to redo a big chunk of your house to fit a bigger hot water heater in.
From the article: The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today finalized Congressionally-mandated energy-efficiency standards for a range of residential water heaters to save American households approximately $7.6 billion per year on their energy and water bills, while significantly cutting energy waste and harmful carbon pollution. The final standards for residential water heaters align with recommendations from various stakeholders, including efficiency and environmental advocates, the Consumer Federation of America, and a leading U.S. water heater manufacturer. The standards would require the most common-sized electric water heaters to achieve efficiency gains with heat pump technology, helping to accelerate the deployment of this cost-effective, clean energy technology while also reducing strain on the electric grid. Over 30 years of shipments, these updated standards are expected to save Americans $124 billion on their energy bills and reduce 332 million metric tons of dangerous carbon dioxide emissions—equivalent to the combined annual emissions of nearly 43 million homes.
“Almost every U.S. household has a water heater, and for too long outdated energy efficiency standards have led to higher utility bills for families,” said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm. “The Biden-Harris Administration is continuing to put American consumers first with new, effective rules—supported by industry—that save both energy and money.”
DOE last updated residential water heater efficiency standards, which are required by Congress, in 2010. Compliance will be required starting in 2029 for the new standards adopted today, which would result in over 50% of the newly manufactured electric storage water heaters to utilize heat pump technology, compared to 3% today. Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters with electric heat pump water heaters meeting the new standards would save consumers approximately $1,800 on their utility bills, on average, over the life of the appliance, with total savings helping low-income households, who spend a higher percentage of their income on utility bills in particular.
The average life of a modern water heater is around 7 yrs. Hopefully they’ve improved that. Not having to spend $1500 every few years probably saves more than its efficiency would.
I replace them frequently, honestly 5 yrs is more accurate. The older ones from pre 90s are great and built to last. Newer ones suck balls and break super easily.
https://www.oliverheatcool.com/about/blog/news-for-homeowners/the-average-lifespan-of-water-heaters/#:~:text=Average%20Lifespan%20Of%20A%20Hot%20Water%20Heater&text=With%20regular%20inspection%2C%20draining%2C%20and,anywhere%20from%2010%2D15%20years.
Depending on the area, gas is more common. I flip houses for a living and replaced quite a few, given the space built for them, I’d say about 2/3 of the heater don’t have the space to switch to heat pump unless they’re redesigning the shape. My biggest concern is quality. Currently they are not well built and I don’t anticipate them to be built better. That’s why how much they save a year is irrelevant if you have to pay what you’ve saved to replace it 10-15yrs later
HVAC tech here, these WILL needs 10 times the maintenance on average. Just simply comparing how often gas systems fail with heat-pumps makes this laughable. People will not save money. I'll make plenty though lol.
We replaced a hot water heater at my grandfathers home in Germany after it broke, they’re now required by law. the fucking thing broke about 2 months after we installed it. They’re spendy and currently I ain’t impressed. We sold the house and apparently it broke again under the new owner, and he wanted us to repair it. We live in the US, your house, your problem now buddy.
Talk to an HVAC guy, They will tell you how shit they are, but they make money doing it, so the more it breaks the more they make. Ain’t a contractor on the market that doesn’t think modern hot water heaters are shit.
Now the ones that seem to be better built, as in I have several that are going strong after 7+ years are 75-100+ gallon tanks, they’re more for commercial buildings so they are a bit better quality. But their footprint is bigger so they don’t always fit.
That is not likely from either a systems standpoint, nor my experience.
A heat pump water heater adds (effectively) a consumer grade air conditioner to an electric water heater, so you now have a device with the failure modes of both.
Washington state has had this rule for years now, and we purchased one. The heat pump failed within the first year.
Add to that they expense difference in the most likely repair scenarios. New heating element? Cheap and easy - grab a new one at the big box store, kill the power, and do it. Pinhole leak in the heat exchanger coils? Either get a specialist to replace the heat exchanger or, more likely, replace the entire unit.
Remind me who is supposed to be saving money here?
This. This is the price that is paid for the Engineers/Design team to increase efficiency. Costing more in materials, time, and energy. This will increase the cost of the water heater greatly. But politicians need to politic.
Could you explain? This article claims to save each household about $600 per year, ($7 billion / 10.9 million households in America) but if it costs $10,000 more that previously then you aren't reaching your ROI until 16 years. Which the average water heater doesn't last that long. It's going to cause more financial strain in the face of a terrible economy.
Over time, it will save money. Short term it’s going to cost more for households. Over time as we push technology by hiring engineers to designing more efficient systems we will save more money. i posted a few other comments on this balancing technology progress and regulation. https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1ciemrz/doe_finalizes_efficiency_standards_for_water/l2aah9n/
Yes, I understand that is generally the flow of innovation. But, this is going to become a luxury item. Most people can't afford this. All of the individuals voting on this are politicians who live comfortably. This was a $500 water heater, now it's going to be $6,000 minimum. Not a small increase....
We build townhomes. Electric tankless hot water heaters went from $700-800 to $1900. But this will be across the board. Heating systems. Electric stoves. Dryers. All passed on to consumers. It's really sad to see.
I have a geothermal heat pump that dumps excess heat into a tank water heater which serves as a preheater for my gas water heater. During the winter my gas water heater would only fire up about once every two days. I suspect that will be the case in the summer when we need air conditioning.
It will be interesting to see how much heat actually gets dumped into the ground compared to getting dumped into the water heater.
Honestly, it’s probably best to keep the old one. I try to avoid replacing working ones, because the new ones are so bad.
My folks have the original heater from the 60s in their house. In the 12 years they’ve owned their house, I’ve replaced mine 2x.
Average life of US gas water hears is between 8-12 years, not 7. Average life of Electric is between 10-15.
Not sure where you get your claims.
Your link from another response literally contradicts your claims.
>While today’s water heaters are better designed than older models, they still require regular maintenance in order to prolong their lives. With regular inspection, draining, and flushing, **you can expect a gas water heater to last anywhere from 8-12 years and an electric water heater to last anywhere from 10-15 years.**
So what do you do if you live in a dense condo where the water heater is literally in a closet inside the building with no opportunity for it to be anywhere else?
Can't wait to spend $3.6K instead of $500 to replace my tank and then "save" $1,800 over 10 years....
>Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters with electric heat pump water heaters meeting the new standards would save consumers approximately $1,800 on their utility bills, on average, over the life of the appliance
https://todayshomeowner.com/plumbing/cost/heat-pump-water-heater-cost/
Given the cost differential to a gas water heater and the fact that most water heaters have little more than a 10 year life it doesn't look like a good financial choice.
If you look at the total cost of ownership the units may never cover the higher cost for the heat pump units. The heat pumps have more moving parts so there is a significant risk of repair bills in addition to using a higher price source of energy. When you compare the energy efficiency of power plants I wonder if the electric appliance is really emitting less carbon dioxide than a traditional gas water heater.
Interesting stuff in that energy efficiency should always be a goal but I think the key is this bit: "...while also reducing strain on the electric grid."
That fits in with my argument that utilities will deploy large battery systems to avoid having to upgrade existing grid capacity. In fast growing cities, brownouts are a constant threat at peak demand. Those peak demand periods can be partially serviced by installing storage at load centers like big condo complexes or office buildings thus putting off increasing grid capacity.
They are very expensive comparatively. $2000 just for the heater. Homeowners may need chimneys capped, maybe an outlet, heaters relocated from closets (assuming they need lots of air to draw heat from?), somewhere to drain the condensate line, and I’m sure potential for other issues. In the Midwest I’d expect conversions to heat pump water heaters may cost $4,000.
I’m not against the change to green just explaining the costs.
In other news, waterheater costs to rise, replacement cycle to accelerate, and Apple announces new iBoil appliance line. Annual cost of units and repairs to exceed $1800.
These need much more maintenance than traditional water heaters. Repairs and maintenance can be costly, if you live in an area with mineral laden water it will be even more costly. These costs may easily supersede any potential savings on utility bills. Example : it’s year 4 of owning one, it has saved you $1200 on utilities. A power outage fries the control board, new control board and installation costs $2400. (These are examples not actual prices, but close)
That's just the companies fucking you over though, nothing to do with the tech itself. A raspberry pi zero and a couple sensors could do it.
A quick search finds this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-50-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE50T10H45U0/312742081
So those prices can't at all be close. You could rip the whole damn thing out and throw an identical one in for less than $2400.
I know but you have all these companies out there who charge outrageous prices. For instance, My friend’s hvac unit stopped working after his basement had a foot or so of water in it. His air handler control board went. A $170 part. He called the local big advertised hvac company. They quoted him $1300 and some change for the board. I called a supply house got the part, took 10 mins to change. Many people would just pay the $1300 because they just don’t know what they’re doing when it comes to appliances. I’m not knocking the tech, I’m knocking the “7 billion dollars saved in utility bills” nothing will get cheaper
If we're already getting ripped off 5-10x the part cost and it just continues, that's not really different. There's nothing more complicated in heat pumps than existing appliances. It's an AC attached to a water heater tank! Though I see your point.
It's horrible what they're doing, but it's the corps doing it. The government should be in some way (how exactly they do it is debatable) encouraging more efficient appliances, but allowing the corporate gouging is ridiculous. That said, all the actual specs I can find show a favorable return for heat pumps vs resistance heat. Maybe it takes 10 years to pay off, but that's a pretty far outlier.
If it stays too bad for too long people will absolutely fill in the gaps. You know how to swap a board. I know how to swap a board. If it's a new model, we read a manual quick. Local company is quoting $1300? I'll do it for $650. $500 for like an hour of work, maybe a little more if you have to drive further.
Hell I'd do that now lol. I'm independent IT but I'll try to fix almost *anything* I'm asked. I fixed a car once, and I have little idea how to fix cars (edit: I mean for a client, I've fixed things on my own vehicles with Googled instructions plenty since then). I just have an OBD2 Bluetooth adapter and a free app.
Anyways, sorry for the ramble. My point is that we should absolutely push for more efficiency, it will only keep bringing costs down in the long run along with destroying the environment a little less. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good and all that. Upfront is worse, sure. But overall it's better.
Edit2: If anything I think the gov should offer 0% interest loans on top of their tax credits to encourage it. Hell, they could make a deal with power companies to just make your bill "the same as it was" until it's paid off.
Lots of solutions around. But none of the solutions work when we just leave it to the market.
I can't find where it says what these regulations will raise the price of the water heater to. If the average consumer saves $1800, does the new unit cost $1900 more?
Depends on cost of power. Cheaper electricity regions, 8 cents a kWh, and mild temperatures, and just tankless electric beats gas because gas service requires a fixed monthly fee.
48 cents here in San Diego.
Yes at these prices its gas gas gas. A 96 percent tankless wall mounted gas unit in the kitchen or garage or outside to save square footage.
Oh okay you're my people. I have real questions. Recently with major renovation we switched our heating from gas and got 'free A/C’ (we didn’t have AC before)- all electric heat pump. Gas bill went down of course but now electric is high. We’re getting solar so that’ll fix that problem.
What are your thoughts on hot water? Gas? Gas on demand? Why tankless? Family of four so we use a decent amount of hot water - baths, laundry, dishwashing…
Hope you went with mini splits.
Tankless saves energy 2 ways:
(1) condensing models are much more common, saving 16% (from 80% efficient to 96%)
(2) It only heats the water when needed, so you aren't continuously losing energy through the walls and top of the tank.
You can see it on the sticker how much energy the different options offer. "Energy factor". 0.95 for the one I linked below, a typical gas tank unit is 0.58 : [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-40-Gal-Short-6-Year-34-000-BTU-Natural-Gas-Tank-Water-Heater](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-40-Gal-Short-6-Year-34-000-BTU-Natural-Gas-Tank-Water-Heater)
Finally, because Bay Area is so expensive, it saves space. It also is more viable to DIY - especially an outdoor mount model, which means you can't screw up the vent.
Example : [https://www.supplyhouse.com/Takagi-T-H3S-OS-N-T-H3S-OS-N-Outdoor-Tankless-High-Efficiency-Condensing-Water-Heater-NG](https://www.supplyhouse.com/Takagi-T-H3S-OS-N-T-H3S-OS-N-Outdoor-Tankless-High-Efficiency-Condensing-Water-Heater-NG)
See the thing is light enough one person can carry it, there are literally just 3 hoses on the bottom and an electrical connection, though you would want to mount to brick or cement board outside for a safety precaution.
Would cost you about $1300 and a few hours work. Just keep that in mind when you get bids from plumbers in Bay Area lol.
You can't run out of hot water with tankless, albeit depending on how you size it, it is possible to draw more hot water than the unit can heat.
Mine only uses about 60 kWh per month, which costs me about $10. That's about the same as the old gas one cost to run, but there was also a fixed price of close to $40 per month just to have the gas service.
That's not it. Heat pump with Coefficient of Performance = 3 generates 3 BTU of hot water for every 1 BTU of electrical energy. It's an absolute number, not a comparison.
> That's where you get the "300% efficient!" claim from, which I find disingenuous.
It's not disingenuous, it's literally physics. A watt is a watt is a watt.
1 watt of electricity produces 1 watt of heat in the desired area when used for resistance heating - it's 100% efficient transformation of energy, or close enough to be effectively 100%. Effectively all of the energy you spend becomes heat in the area.
1 watt of electricity can produce more than 1 watt of heat in the desired area when used to transfer heat from one place to another, especially when exploiting phase transition and a thermal battery of external heat. You get more energy as heat in the area than energy you used to get the heat there. It's not at all disingenuous to represent that as what it is, using 1 watt of electricity to give you 3 watts of heat in the desired area is 300% efficiency.
Except you're not defining it relative to another device type, you're defining it relative to a given application. In this case, you're defining it relative to *how many watts can I put in XYZ area per watt I spend*. That's the literal definition of *thermal efficiency*. Which is why the three statements below are all true.
>If I spend one watt of electricity, a resistance heater gives me exactly one watt of heat.
>If I spend one watt of electricity, a heat pump gives me greater than one watt of heat.
>If I take away the first line, the second line is still true with nothing to compare it to.
>I can't find where it says what these regulations will raise the price of the water heater to.
That's never mentioned, of course. Plus there's the added complexity, which means more service calls, and your energy savings go down the drain.
I paid $1100 for mine on sale this past November, normal price was $1500. They are more expensive for a heat pump water heater but they will get cheaper over the next few years as more brands start to make them.
As for savings, mine replaced an electric one that used over $500 of electricity each year to now using about $100 a year.
While the initial cost is higher over its life time they save thousands and you notice the lower energy bill from day one.
Over a 10 year life in my case, I will save over $4000 in operating cost. Heat pump water heaters are totally worth it.
When I looked into them, I was told I would need to add a water softener to my whole system because of the hard water in the area. That meant that the price to install was a few hundred to thousand higher and also a few hundred extra a year. Making it so I might 'save' over 10 years only something closer to $500-$1500. After the initial cost of the water softener installation (requiring a pipe out and all) meant it would take something like 15-20 years before it was paid for (accounting for replacements of the heater at time and all).
I'm paying about $10 a month now, vs \~$35 before and it's great. I never run out of hot water and my garage gets a little bit of AC and dehumidification.
Texas would here unto the end of days of the planet earth respectfully decline anything that saves its citizens any kind of money or put any undo hardships on CEO pay or executive bonuses. Give us more of that. Mmm. Yes.
I would love to see a comparison on solar panels with a heat pump water heater vs a couple of extra panels and a cheap electric water heater. A simple timer and you only use solar energy for your hot water needs.
Pipe dreams by bureaucrats who pull numbers out of the air. No one is going to save that much. They don’t tell you the new efficiency units will cost 4-7 times as much so your paying a lot upfront to save a little over the course of the life of the unit. Plus having just outlawed most types of more efficient Freon you’ll save even less and have to have it serviced just like your AC.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-50-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE50T10H45U0/312742081
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-50-Gal-4500-Watt-Elements-Medium-Electric-Water-Heater-with-6-Year-Tank-Warranty-and-240-Volt-XE50M06ST45U1/326434092
Not quite 4x, in the same brand that's well regarded, with a 10 year vs 6 year warranty. I didn't price hunt at all, literally the first thing that comes up. If I tried I could probably find a more favorable comparison for either one, but that seemed dishonest so I didn't.
Of course it'll still depend on your electricity prices. I only pay 11.5¢ Kwh here, so it'd be a pretty hard thing to beat. Maintenance costs hardly matter with a 10 year parts and tank warranty, which is all the longer you can usually get out of a regular tank anyways.
Rheem itself says it saves an average of $3150 over those ten years. Even if we cut that by more than half and say it's $1500, you still come out ahead.
The one thing not factored here is install cost. For those who have it in an open area like a basement, it's a drop in replacement. Same cost as a regular one. Don't even have to run new electric! If it's in a closet you need to duct it somewhere, but the cost of that is insanely variable.
If we trust Rheem's estimates (or you live somewhere with higher electricity costs) the install would be easy to cover too. If someone's going to charge you $1500+ to run a duct... Ask someone else lol.
The problem is the refrig3rant used in heat pump water heaters, and the main problem is they are being manufactured without reclamation ports for refrigerant. I am all for more efficient uses of energy, but you have to be able to safely recycle the products
Most modern appliances use propane as the refrigerant which doesn’t need to be recaptured and can be safely vented if needed.
It’s the most eco-friendly refrigerant.
But you know how this will go? Government will put a financial incentive for householders to upgrade their water heaters to the new standard, and water heaters at the new standard will go up in price by almost exactly the amount of the incentive.
Notice that the Biden Administration places tariffs on solar water heaters to keep them out of the US market.
See: solar water heaters incorporating glass tube heat collectors and including glass tubes and stands with tanks (described in HTSUS 8419.19.0040)
These tariffs were in fact created by the Trump Administration and mysteriously kept by the Biden Administration despite articles like this one touting the administration's commitmemnt to efficiency. If the Biden Administration was seriously concerned about efficiency, they would back off on the Trump tariffs and focus on products that really hurt the Chinese economy like electronics but the real goal is not to hurt China obviously but to hamper the transition away from fossil fuels.
Heat Pumps on water heaters are great IN WARM CLIMATES.
It's a massive waste of energy in cold climates. I'm heating my house 9 months of the year. Unless there's a heat recapture system on the waste plumbing, I'm just unnecessarily cooling off my house.
Plus heat pump water heaters require a larger room. This is a really stupid efficiency rule.
Heat pump water heaters are great if you have a ton of space and are in a warm climate that uses a lot of AC. But if you have your water heater stored in a small closet or you are in a cold climate, it's a massive waste of money.
I'm already efficient with my house. 2 years ago I installed a tankless ( gas ) water heater. It's the best choice I have ever made with upgrades to my house.
Water heaters used to have a thermocouple which cost about 7 bucks to replace and you lit the pilot by hand . Now it’s a sealed combustion chamber and it’s been replaced by a thermopile which is the whole pilot assembly for 75 bucks . The gas valve is more complicated now . On some of them you have to turn the dial back and forth in a certain sequence to reset the valve if you have problems. Some of the water heaters have a vapor sensor that will shut down the water heater . They keep changing the thickness of the insulation for more efficiency which changes the length of the relief valve. Long story short , every time they do this the water heater cost more money and gets more complicated because . It’s out of control
I'm fine with efficiency standards, but if this would truly save consumers money, why haven't these more efficient heaters been sold without government intervention?
Some of them are also loud. So if you have your water heater indoors near a living space be prepared for noise. Also they require more airflow so if it's in a closet inside you need a louvered door. Again, more noise.
And you need to do something with the condensate. So if you have an older home it's possible you now would need to plumb in a condensate drain which can add to the cost.
They're great for new construction where these factors can be mitigated by locating the water heater in a garage and putting in a condensate drain is trivial.
If it costs the companies $100/heater to do this and it saves the consumer $150 in costs, they could raise the price by $101 and everyone wins. If it costs the companies $175/heater to do this, it doesn't make sense to change things (unless we're talking about the externalities of energy use).
The financial savings are pretty easy to calculate, and they definitely pay for themselves over the life of the heater, when compared to standard electric.
>and they definitely pay for themselves over the life of the heater,
Ok, post the numbers and show me.
If you can't, then "definitely" isn't a word you want to use.
https://www.google.com/search?q=heat+pump+water+heater+cost+calculations
Why don't you post your numbers? You made the initial assertion that they aren't worthwhile. How did you reach that conclusion?
Ever notice how all the press releases specifically state the "The Biden-Harris Administration"
I don't remember them doing that with the Obama-Biden admin, it was just the "Obama Admin"
What a pathetic way to word this, we all know electricity costs will go up to keep the profit margins the same for the electric providers, the end consumer will never experience any savings, ever
This is just fundamentally wrong. If you are replacing something like an electric resistive water heater with a heat pump one, the cost of electricity would have to go up 500% for you to not see a savings.
The majority of the rise in electricity price is from the cost of fuel. If you put millions of kWh of solar and wind on the grid that have no fuel cost while at the same time people are replacing stupid high use items like electric water heaters you reduce the increase in fuel use and reduce the increase in the price of electricity over time.
Removing the majority of resistive electric water heaters and dryers from the US will save massive amounts of electricity.
It will save energy, it will not save money for the end consumer in the long run because utility cost will go up to adjust for any sort of lost revenue. It’s all a scam
Wrong. Just look at the energy guide, you're taking a traditional electric tank that uses over $500 a year to heat water and are replacing it with one that uses about $100 a year to heat water.
The cost of electricity is not going to go up to that much to eat away that reduction in cost. Thats not how it's sold or priced. Take off your tinfoil hat and look at the actual numbers.
You’re wrong, has your electricity bill gone up over the last 10 years? I’m sure in that time you’ve switched all your bulbs to led, your tv and computer have become more efficient, what else has in that time? Yet we’re all paying more.
Take the propaganda Johnson out from your lips and look around
Nope, try again you are 1000% wrong. You have your head so far up your ass it's not even funny.
Learn to do math. The cost of electricity has gone up about 2% per year over the last decade. Electric utilities are regulated they can't just decide tomorrow to raise their rates 500%. My power company actually just lowered their rate on May 1st and that is the second price reduction this year.
At the insanity you're talking about, it would take an entire life time of electricity price rises to eat the savings of going from a traditional tank to a heat pump tank.
Take off the tinfoil hat.
Says the guy who does not have one in his house, knows nothing about them and keeps spewing conspiracy BS that has no basis in reality. Keep going for it.
So again, you are 1000% wrong.
Sure, the efficiency goes up. But you’ll only get any savings if the heater lasts for 20-25 years. Otherwise it’s cheaper in the short term to own a gas heater.
Heat pumps add a lot more to the cost of construction thought. A business I know was forced to use one, and it added 20% more to their buildout costs. So new home costs will go up.
Heat pumps do not have to add much cost, we build them into sub $200 window AC units and mini refrigerators. The tech is nothing new.
With in a few years a heat pump water heater will only be a 10 - 20% so premium on a traditional tank with the savings paying for itself in user a year.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/chrisdh79: --- From the article: The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today finalized Congressionally-mandated energy-efficiency standards for a range of residential water heaters to save American households approximately $7.6 billion per year on their energy and water bills, while significantly cutting energy waste and harmful carbon pollution. The final standards for residential water heaters align with recommendations from various stakeholders, including efficiency and environmental advocates, the Consumer Federation of America, and a leading U.S. water heater manufacturer. The standards would require the most common-sized electric water heaters to achieve efficiency gains with heat pump technology, helping to accelerate the deployment of this cost-effective, clean energy technology while also reducing strain on the electric grid. Over 30 years of shipments, these updated standards are expected to save Americans $124 billion on their energy bills and reduce 332 million metric tons of dangerous carbon dioxide emissions—equivalent to the combined annual emissions of nearly 43 million homes. “Almost every U.S. household has a water heater, and for too long outdated energy efficiency standards have led to higher utility bills for families,” said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm. “The Biden-Harris Administration is continuing to put American consumers first with new, effective rules—supported by industry—that save both energy and money.” DOE last updated residential water heater efficiency standards, which are required by Congress, in 2010. Compliance will be required starting in 2029 for the new standards adopted today, which would result in over 50% of the newly manufactured electric storage water heaters to utilize heat pump technology, compared to 3% today. Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters with electric heat pump water heaters meeting the new standards would save consumers approximately $1,800 on their utility bills, on average, over the life of the appliance, with total savings helping low-income households, who spend a higher percentage of their income on utility bills in particular. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1ciemrz/doe_finalizes_efficiency_standards_for_water/l28ivkn/
I installed a heat pump water heater 7 months ago. In the process, I moved the water heater to a new location in my basement which is closer to the kitchen sink and both bathrooms. The reduction in my power bill was both immediate and very noticeable, but not quite as much as I had expected. My pay-back is 9 years meaning it will have saved enough to pay back the cost plus installation in 9 years. Why is it less than expected? I installed a 65 gallon because my home is built for 4 to 6 inhabitants while I actually live here alone. Less usage means overall savings are lower. Moving the water heater was a no-brainer in my case. I put the water heater right beside an external drain which I was able to use for both overflow and pressure release outlets. It is within 8 feet of my main water lines meaning minimal work to re-plumb. It is in my basement which has plenty of volume to support the air flow requirements. I did not require a pressure expansion tank as I have a 40 gallon water storage tank. I still would not rate this as a project for most home-owners. It just happened to be fairly easy to set up in my particular circumstances. I even re-routed my 220V electric wires to the new location with minimal difficulty. I set temperature at 125F which is my preferred temperature.
Are you in a cold or warm climate? Can you hear the noise from the first floor above the basement?
I'm in a cold climate, the WH is between the furnace and the kitchen stairs. It's under the main hallway. I have not heard the WH making noise a single time since it's been installed. It's also doing closed-system heat, so it just pulls in heat from the basement and and leaks/losses go back into the basement.
That's pretty neat actually. Sort of indirect geothermal, since the temperature down there must be relatively stable due to the soil surrounding the basement. I guess in theory you will gradually reduce the soil temperature around the basement, but not by any meaningful amount due to how much earth there is.
And also not that much will come out of the soil since there's an oil burner down there hooked up to a forced air system, and all that's 10' from the water heater. It gets warm in summer and cool in winter, but never below 50-60°F.
My living room is right above my mechanical room with HP water heater and I can't hear it at all
I'm in southern Tennessee so relatively warm. My basement temperature ranges between 50F in winter and 65F summer. I can hear it as a slight hum about 1/10 as loud as my heat pump. Others have said it is not audible but their hearing is not as acute as mine. It runs on average 2 or 3 times per day during normal usage, and 4 times when I use the washing machine.
did you include the projected increases in energy costs based on past energy bills over time or just the current cost of electricity? Also would you of had to replace the water heater at some time anyway? the price difference between regular insulation of a regular water heater vs a heat pump water heater and all that.
DoE: we're focused on saving energy, for the sake of the future futorology: but how much will it cost me right now?
The US resistance to any kind of environmental progress that don't bring immediate profit always baffle me. Futurology didn't disappoint here as usual ...
It really feels like an ancap utopian sub, nothing to do with futurism at all.
Might want to narrow your resistance group here. Many of us want this progress. Conservatives will shit the bed like they did over LED lightbulbs and simultaneously complain about and seek govt protections from China's EVs.
You know the funny thing about the LED lightbulbs, the one who passed it were the conservatives themselves. They also created the EPA. EV tax credits were also passed by them. So what is with the contradiction of them passing things then spending decades to get rid of them? Fact of the matter is, they've been hijacked by corporate interests that have flipped their morals upside down to favor whatever special interest want
Yeah but even outside of the conservative/liberal divide, my experience is that a lot of US people will choose convenience over environment way too often. Last time I was visiting, I went to shop at the supermarket with a bleeding heart democrat friend. The amount of whining there was about the fact that they were phasing out disposable plastic bags was depressing. I lived in the US for a while and those kind of reactions always puzzled me.
I'd be read as a bleeding heart democrat. I skip bags and just go for "what can I carry in my bare hands?"
I do this as well. I do have shopping bags for those times I need them, but exactly. Carry the stuff.
But at the end of the day, the bags were being banned. So presumably most people in that area were fine with it, as demonstrated by voting for politicians who did it. Either that person wasn't representative, or they were just doing the normal human grousing about an inconvenience (while not actually wanting to repeal the regulation).
Conservatives want progress. They just don't want it mandated at them. You want more efficient water heaters? Cool. You tell me I have to pay X additional because you think I should, we have a problem.
Conservative noun 1. a person who is averse to change and holds traditional values.
This subreddit is full belligerently ignorant, superstitious doomer rabble.
Well, that and this sub usually has a bunch of pro o*l shills in it
Why did you censor the word "oil?"
Paranoia mostly. I do some work in sustainability consulting and I’ve noticed that when I talk about it on Reddit sometimes it can draw…odd activity. Especially in conversations about home electrification. so I just try to steer clear of the astroturfing if I can.
you really need technology to drive progress not simply regulation. regulation can drive technology but its not always the case. since they changed the gallons per flush for toilets technology for flushing has not improved, so we are just having to flush like 4x now. its a waste of time and doesn't save on water. in fact often it uses more ware. if they simply mandated 2 settings for flushes - then it will save water as you can use the less water setting most of the time. anyways, well though out regulation coupled with technology that enables change is what we need. blanket regulations are harder to accept. its the same with removal of CFCs. it worked because a replacement technology was available, without the tech, the regulation would have been impossible.
They did reengineer toilets so low flow works reasonably well now. There was a period where it didn't though.
Yeah. Low flush toilets have been out for more than 30 years. Not exactly something new but you’ll still see people whining the hell about them.
You do realize that functional low flush toilets (not the crappy retrofits that were sold for a few years) have been out for 30 years now. That’s a shitty (hon hon hon) example to take.
All I know is the toilets i use now require multiple flushes. But years ago that wasn’t a issue. Maybe its me though.
They are focused on saving energy so the energy companies can charge more for less later.
You're not going to save anything unless the cost of these water heaters comes down. I'm a plumber, a 40 gal electric wh costs about 600 dollars, a heat pump hybrid 40 gal is 3000. If you need a repair on a regular electric water heater it is usually straightforward and inexpensive. If your hybrid breaks down get out your checkbook. I'm not against changes to help save energy, but this is the same as the electric car argument, the costs need to come down for the average person to adopt this technology.
It’s not as expensive as you think. A Rheem 40 gallon heat pump hybrid is $1600 from Home Depot, and many places have some kind of rebate ($500 where I live). Also, very shortly there will be federal rebates for $1500 per home to upgrade your hot water tanks - from the “inflation reduction act”..
I'm Canadian, sorry I know I'm commenting on an American policy thread. I checked my home depot and it was 3 grand. Honestly that sounds great that they are coming down in cost, but they will cost more to repair and they require a drain, and adequate airflow and space around the water heater so it's not a solution for everyone.
That’s great and all but heat pump hot water tanks require a significant cubic footage to operate efficiently. Sometimes a gas on demand system makes the most sense.
Perhaps by 2029, they will be smaller, and cheaper.
One good thing about the regulations is that the increased volume should help drive prices down. I don’t think they were talking about the physical size of the device. Rather the size of the area it’s in to pull heat from. Heat pumps operate by literally moving heat. A small area means there’s less heat to move so the heat pump has to work harder which means it’s less efficient.
I dont have the necessary square footage, which means Id have to have a louvred door which means more noise in the surrounding areas. I also dont have a drain for it to drain, sooo
The condenser goes on the outside so you shouldn’t need a drain. You would need an indoor condenser if it was cooling the water but since it is only heating, only outdoor condensation would occur.
Out of the many models on the market, I think only one is a split system with outdoor evaporator (not condenser, that's the part that gets hot). Most of them just have the heat pump, evaporator, and other components right on top of the tank.
Maybe in the US, in Europe the great majority of heat pumps have outdoor units. The big difference is between split systems (where the gas is moved between the outside unit and the internal one) and "mono block" (where all is in the outside unit and the water already hot is moved between the outside and the inside units).
I think with it being the direction that the laws are taking us, the US will start to see more of those types of systems in the future too.
It also should be in unconditioned space.
Condensation pumps
Don't you understand, there is nowhere for the hot water tank to put the water. Its not like you could put the water into a tank or something.
which would probably make the water less hot...
You’re proposing introducing a pump to raise the pressure of the condensate to 60+ psi and injecting it into the potable water system? Having seen how clean the coil on my heat pump is I can’t imagine what could go wrong with that.
And while I agree individuals and households should have efficiency and lower bills. The carbon footprint is incredibly small compared to that of businesses and BIG business which output far more in a year than individuals in a lifetime. I'm not saying "don't do the thing which helps individuals", but I am saying "big business is where there needs to be a major focus to really make a big impact".
That's actually incorrect though. About 50% of all primary energy used in the US is electricity, heating fuel, and transportation fuel that is used in residential buildings or personnel vehicles. Not saying we shouldn't hold businesses accountable - especially those that try to hide emissions or where there could be effective alternatives. But the narrative that most of the emissions come from highly profitable companies is false.
I think what he is getting at is the individual/home projects have a lower ROI in both reduced carbon and cost in comparison to industrial projects.
Afaik from my minimal knowledge of these systems as a sustainability consultant, the ideal answer for smaller residences where having individual heat pumps won't be feasible is ambient loops of lthw with smaller water to water heat pumps in each residence to provide the necessary hot water, as someone who works in the sector in the UK the US seems to be pretty far behind on this front, building new residences with Gas installations is becoming increasingly difficult in the UK due to planning regulation
That does not seem right. When I look for hybrid systems, some look a bit bigger than my current gas heater, but not even all of them. Sure, maybe the larger the more efficient, but as long as they are already more efficient/cheaper than my old system (+environment friendly), that's great. I mean we have heat pumps in our fridges and dryers, I would assume you can have a small one connected to a moderately sized water tank for quick usage. And if you require a lot of hot water, then that's where the hybrid side kicks in.
He's referring to tankless systems, which are tiny and mounted on a wall. Hybrid water heaters still have the footprint of the storage tank.
It's not even referring to the size of the device. Heat pump water heaters will cool the room they are in. If that room is not big enough, it will get very cold and the system does not perform as well, so manufacturers recommend they only be installed in large enough spaces.
The unit I have supports ducting to and from the unit to use air from a different space.
Free air conditioning. In a lot of places, and most of the year, this is an upside. Otherwise just chuck all your server equipment and bitcoin miners in the room with heat pumped water heater.
"which would result in over 50% of the newly manufactured electric storage water heaters to utilize heat pump technology, compared to 3% today." Did you read the article. Also American homes are not lacking in square footage, generally. They're huge on average.
The houses are big but the spaces for the water heater generally are not. If you worked in construction, you'd know that. And it turns out that it's not often cost effective to redo a big chunk of your house to fit a bigger hot water heater in.
Half the units are expected to be not heat pump water heaters, so I think thats already accounted for.
Yeah if there is anything the US lacks it's space.
Betting that gas remains cheap ten years from now is a very poor bet to make
American homes are massive, older gas and oil systems are also extremely oversized.
They need to make heat pump tanks with remote radiators so you can put that cold to use somewhere else.
From the article: The U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) today finalized Congressionally-mandated energy-efficiency standards for a range of residential water heaters to save American households approximately $7.6 billion per year on their energy and water bills, while significantly cutting energy waste and harmful carbon pollution. The final standards for residential water heaters align with recommendations from various stakeholders, including efficiency and environmental advocates, the Consumer Federation of America, and a leading U.S. water heater manufacturer. The standards would require the most common-sized electric water heaters to achieve efficiency gains with heat pump technology, helping to accelerate the deployment of this cost-effective, clean energy technology while also reducing strain on the electric grid. Over 30 years of shipments, these updated standards are expected to save Americans $124 billion on their energy bills and reduce 332 million metric tons of dangerous carbon dioxide emissions—equivalent to the combined annual emissions of nearly 43 million homes. “Almost every U.S. household has a water heater, and for too long outdated energy efficiency standards have led to higher utility bills for families,” said U.S. Secretary of Energy Jennifer M. Granholm. “The Biden-Harris Administration is continuing to put American consumers first with new, effective rules—supported by industry—that save both energy and money.” DOE last updated residential water heater efficiency standards, which are required by Congress, in 2010. Compliance will be required starting in 2029 for the new standards adopted today, which would result in over 50% of the newly manufactured electric storage water heaters to utilize heat pump technology, compared to 3% today. Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters with electric heat pump water heaters meeting the new standards would save consumers approximately $1,800 on their utility bills, on average, over the life of the appliance, with total savings helping low-income households, who spend a higher percentage of their income on utility bills in particular.
The average life of a modern water heater is around 7 yrs. Hopefully they’ve improved that. Not having to spend $1500 every few years probably saves more than its efficiency would.
That sounds low. A quick google gives me 10 - 25+ years of life expectancy for water heaters.
Insurance company forced us to replace ours at 10 years old to maintain our insurance coverage
I replace them frequently, honestly 5 yrs is more accurate. The older ones from pre 90s are great and built to last. Newer ones suck balls and break super easily. https://www.oliverheatcool.com/about/blog/news-for-homeowners/the-average-lifespan-of-water-heaters/#:~:text=Average%20Lifespan%20Of%20A%20Hot%20Water%20Heater&text=With%20regular%20inspection%2C%20draining%2C%20and,anywhere%20from%2010%2D15%20years.
Your own article states 10-15 years for electric ones. No idea of the brands used in the US though. I think NIBE is king here in Europe.
Depending on the area, gas is more common. I flip houses for a living and replaced quite a few, given the space built for them, I’d say about 2/3 of the heater don’t have the space to switch to heat pump unless they’re redesigning the shape. My biggest concern is quality. Currently they are not well built and I don’t anticipate them to be built better. That’s why how much they save a year is irrelevant if you have to pay what you’ve saved to replace it 10-15yrs later
HVAC tech here, these WILL needs 10 times the maintenance on average. Just simply comparing how often gas systems fail with heat-pumps makes this laughable. People will not save money. I'll make plenty though lol.
We replaced a hot water heater at my grandfathers home in Germany after it broke, they’re now required by law. the fucking thing broke about 2 months after we installed it. They’re spendy and currently I ain’t impressed. We sold the house and apparently it broke again under the new owner, and he wanted us to repair it. We live in the US, your house, your problem now buddy.
You replace the ones that need to be replaced. That's not *all* water heaters. The majority of them last *way* longer than 5 years.
Talk to an HVAC guy, They will tell you how shit they are, but they make money doing it, so the more it breaks the more they make. Ain’t a contractor on the market that doesn’t think modern hot water heaters are shit. Now the ones that seem to be better built, as in I have several that are going strong after 7+ years are 75-100+ gallon tanks, they’re more for commercial buildings so they are a bit better quality. But their footprint is bigger so they don’t always fit.
If you ask an HVAC guy about literally anything, the answer will be "it's shit".
Glad you work with them a lot. So your knowledge must be coming from experience!
That is not likely from either a systems standpoint, nor my experience. A heat pump water heater adds (effectively) a consumer grade air conditioner to an electric water heater, so you now have a device with the failure modes of both. Washington state has had this rule for years now, and we purchased one. The heat pump failed within the first year. Add to that they expense difference in the most likely repair scenarios. New heating element? Cheap and easy - grab a new one at the big box store, kill the power, and do it. Pinhole leak in the heat exchanger coils? Either get a specialist to replace the heat exchanger or, more likely, replace the entire unit. Remind me who is supposed to be saving money here?
Not to mention the mandate here has almost doubled the price of a tankless electrical hot water heater
This. This is the price that is paid for the Engineers/Design team to increase efficiency. Costing more in materials, time, and energy. This will increase the cost of the water heater greatly. But politicians need to politic.
The new energy credit mandates will add $7500-$10000 to the cost of what we are building right now. Insane
better design will pay off over time.
Could you explain? This article claims to save each household about $600 per year, ($7 billion / 10.9 million households in America) but if it costs $10,000 more that previously then you aren't reaching your ROI until 16 years. Which the average water heater doesn't last that long. It's going to cause more financial strain in the face of a terrible economy.
Over time, it will save money. Short term it’s going to cost more for households. Over time as we push technology by hiring engineers to designing more efficient systems we will save more money. i posted a few other comments on this balancing technology progress and regulation. https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/1ciemrz/doe_finalizes_efficiency_standards_for_water/l2aah9n/
Yes, I understand that is generally the flow of innovation. But, this is going to become a luxury item. Most people can't afford this. All of the individuals voting on this are politicians who live comfortably. This was a $500 water heater, now it's going to be $6,000 minimum. Not a small increase....
We build townhomes. Electric tankless hot water heaters went from $700-800 to $1900. But this will be across the board. Heating systems. Electric stoves. Dryers. All passed on to consumers. It's really sad to see.
I have a geothermal heat pump that dumps excess heat into a tank water heater which serves as a preheater for my gas water heater. During the winter my gas water heater would only fire up about once every two days. I suspect that will be the case in the summer when we need air conditioning. It will be interesting to see how much heat actually gets dumped into the ground compared to getting dumped into the water heater.
We’re from the government, we’re here to save you money. No you fucking won’t! Lol
And here I'm sitting with a water heater from 1992, because my landlord refuses to update it. Can't imagine how inefficient that thing is.
Honestly, it’s probably best to keep the old one. I try to avoid replacing working ones, because the new ones are so bad. My folks have the original heater from the 60s in their house. In the 12 years they’ve owned their house, I’ve replaced mine 2x.
That era was maybe 55% thermal efficiency at best. So it's probably at or below 50% now.
I bet it works well.
Shocking that it hasn't rusted through, yet.
just don't touch it. it probably has enough rust if you clean it, it will break.
Sure, if you do zero maintenance and have mineral laden water.
Average life of US gas water hears is between 8-12 years, not 7. Average life of Electric is between 10-15. Not sure where you get your claims. Your link from another response literally contradicts your claims. >While today’s water heaters are better designed than older models, they still require regular maintenance in order to prolong their lives. With regular inspection, draining, and flushing, **you can expect a gas water heater to last anywhere from 8-12 years and an electric water heater to last anywhere from 10-15 years.**
Came here to see how Futurology would be negative about this one 🙄.
You came to the right place
I'm 100% behind heat pumps as an idea. I just don't know how a $800 water heater tank plus a $500 5kW air conditioner turn into a $2500 water heater.
"I bet that natural gas prices won't go up significantly over the next ten years" is an absolutely breathtaking assumption to make
My water heater is propane, I suppose I’ll stick with it till it dies and then consider alternatives. Hell it might outlast me.
Only if you bought propane accessories
Propane water heater, propane oven/stove and propane gas logs.
So what do you do if you live in a dense condo where the water heater is literally in a closet inside the building with no opportunity for it to be anywhere else?
Run the condenser outside.
Can't wait to spend $3.6K instead of $500 to replace my tank and then "save" $1,800 over 10 years.... >Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters with electric heat pump water heaters meeting the new standards would save consumers approximately $1,800 on their utility bills, on average, over the life of the appliance https://todayshomeowner.com/plumbing/cost/heat-pump-water-heater-cost/
Oh great, here comes the "they can have my water heater when they pull it from my cold dead hands" crew.
Given the cost differential to a gas water heater and the fact that most water heaters have little more than a 10 year life it doesn't look like a good financial choice. If you look at the total cost of ownership the units may never cover the higher cost for the heat pump units. The heat pumps have more moving parts so there is a significant risk of repair bills in addition to using a higher price source of energy. When you compare the energy efficiency of power plants I wonder if the electric appliance is really emitting less carbon dioxide than a traditional gas water heater.
Technology Connections has been making videos about this topic for a while now, but it’s good to see new government standards catching up.
Interesting stuff in that energy efficiency should always be a goal but I think the key is this bit: "...while also reducing strain on the electric grid." That fits in with my argument that utilities will deploy large battery systems to avoid having to upgrade existing grid capacity. In fast growing cities, brownouts are a constant threat at peak demand. Those peak demand periods can be partially serviced by installing storage at load centers like big condo complexes or office buildings thus putting off increasing grid capacity.
They are very expensive comparatively. $2000 just for the heater. Homeowners may need chimneys capped, maybe an outlet, heaters relocated from closets (assuming they need lots of air to draw heat from?), somewhere to drain the condensate line, and I’m sure potential for other issues. In the Midwest I’d expect conversions to heat pump water heaters may cost $4,000. I’m not against the change to green just explaining the costs.
In other news, waterheater costs to rise, replacement cycle to accelerate, and Apple announces new iBoil appliance line. Annual cost of units and repairs to exceed $1800.
These need much more maintenance than traditional water heaters. Repairs and maintenance can be costly, if you live in an area with mineral laden water it will be even more costly. These costs may easily supersede any potential savings on utility bills. Example : it’s year 4 of owning one, it has saved you $1200 on utilities. A power outage fries the control board, new control board and installation costs $2400. (These are examples not actual prices, but close)
That's just the companies fucking you over though, nothing to do with the tech itself. A raspberry pi zero and a couple sensors could do it. A quick search finds this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-50-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE50T10H45U0/312742081 So those prices can't at all be close. You could rip the whole damn thing out and throw an identical one in for less than $2400.
I know but you have all these companies out there who charge outrageous prices. For instance, My friend’s hvac unit stopped working after his basement had a foot or so of water in it. His air handler control board went. A $170 part. He called the local big advertised hvac company. They quoted him $1300 and some change for the board. I called a supply house got the part, took 10 mins to change. Many people would just pay the $1300 because they just don’t know what they’re doing when it comes to appliances. I’m not knocking the tech, I’m knocking the “7 billion dollars saved in utility bills” nothing will get cheaper
If we're already getting ripped off 5-10x the part cost and it just continues, that's not really different. There's nothing more complicated in heat pumps than existing appliances. It's an AC attached to a water heater tank! Though I see your point. It's horrible what they're doing, but it's the corps doing it. The government should be in some way (how exactly they do it is debatable) encouraging more efficient appliances, but allowing the corporate gouging is ridiculous. That said, all the actual specs I can find show a favorable return for heat pumps vs resistance heat. Maybe it takes 10 years to pay off, but that's a pretty far outlier. If it stays too bad for too long people will absolutely fill in the gaps. You know how to swap a board. I know how to swap a board. If it's a new model, we read a manual quick. Local company is quoting $1300? I'll do it for $650. $500 for like an hour of work, maybe a little more if you have to drive further. Hell I'd do that now lol. I'm independent IT but I'll try to fix almost *anything* I'm asked. I fixed a car once, and I have little idea how to fix cars (edit: I mean for a client, I've fixed things on my own vehicles with Googled instructions plenty since then). I just have an OBD2 Bluetooth adapter and a free app. Anyways, sorry for the ramble. My point is that we should absolutely push for more efficiency, it will only keep bringing costs down in the long run along with destroying the environment a little less. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good and all that. Upfront is worse, sure. But overall it's better. Edit2: If anything I think the gov should offer 0% interest loans on top of their tax credits to encourage it. Hell, they could make a deal with power companies to just make your bill "the same as it was" until it's paid off. Lots of solutions around. But none of the solutions work when we just leave it to the market.
I can't find where it says what these regulations will raise the price of the water heater to. If the average consumer saves $1800, does the new unit cost $1900 more?
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Depends on cost of power. Cheaper electricity regions, 8 cents a kWh, and mild temperatures, and just tankless electric beats gas because gas service requires a fixed monthly fee.
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8 cents. FML. $0.25-$0.40 here in bay area!
48 cents here in San Diego. Yes at these prices its gas gas gas. A 96 percent tankless wall mounted gas unit in the kitchen or garage or outside to save square footage.
Oh okay you're my people. I have real questions. Recently with major renovation we switched our heating from gas and got 'free A/C’ (we didn’t have AC before)- all electric heat pump. Gas bill went down of course but now electric is high. We’re getting solar so that’ll fix that problem. What are your thoughts on hot water? Gas? Gas on demand? Why tankless? Family of four so we use a decent amount of hot water - baths, laundry, dishwashing…
Hope you went with mini splits. Tankless saves energy 2 ways: (1) condensing models are much more common, saving 16% (from 80% efficient to 96%) (2) It only heats the water when needed, so you aren't continuously losing energy through the walls and top of the tank. You can see it on the sticker how much energy the different options offer. "Energy factor". 0.95 for the one I linked below, a typical gas tank unit is 0.58 : [https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-40-Gal-Short-6-Year-34-000-BTU-Natural-Gas-Tank-Water-Heater](https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-40-Gal-Short-6-Year-34-000-BTU-Natural-Gas-Tank-Water-Heater) Finally, because Bay Area is so expensive, it saves space. It also is more viable to DIY - especially an outdoor mount model, which means you can't screw up the vent. Example : [https://www.supplyhouse.com/Takagi-T-H3S-OS-N-T-H3S-OS-N-Outdoor-Tankless-High-Efficiency-Condensing-Water-Heater-NG](https://www.supplyhouse.com/Takagi-T-H3S-OS-N-T-H3S-OS-N-Outdoor-Tankless-High-Efficiency-Condensing-Water-Heater-NG) See the thing is light enough one person can carry it, there are literally just 3 hoses on the bottom and an electrical connection, though you would want to mount to brick or cement board outside for a safety precaution. Would cost you about $1300 and a few hours work. Just keep that in mind when you get bids from plumbers in Bay Area lol. You can't run out of hot water with tankless, albeit depending on how you size it, it is possible to draw more hot water than the unit can heat.
Super helpful. Thanks.
Mine only uses about 60 kWh per month, which costs me about $10. That's about the same as the old gas one cost to run, but there was also a fixed price of close to $40 per month just to have the gas service.
That's not it. Heat pump with Coefficient of Performance = 3 generates 3 BTU of hot water for every 1 BTU of electrical energy. It's an absolute number, not a comparison.
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But it's not "disingenuous". It's thermodynamics.
> That's where you get the "300% efficient!" claim from, which I find disingenuous. It's not disingenuous, it's literally physics. A watt is a watt is a watt. 1 watt of electricity produces 1 watt of heat in the desired area when used for resistance heating - it's 100% efficient transformation of energy, or close enough to be effectively 100%. Effectively all of the energy you spend becomes heat in the area. 1 watt of electricity can produce more than 1 watt of heat in the desired area when used to transfer heat from one place to another, especially when exploiting phase transition and a thermal battery of external heat. You get more energy as heat in the area than energy you used to get the heat there. It's not at all disingenuous to represent that as what it is, using 1 watt of electricity to give you 3 watts of heat in the desired area is 300% efficiency.
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Except you're not defining it relative to another device type, you're defining it relative to a given application. In this case, you're defining it relative to *how many watts can I put in XYZ area per watt I spend*. That's the literal definition of *thermal efficiency*. Which is why the three statements below are all true. >If I spend one watt of electricity, a resistance heater gives me exactly one watt of heat. >If I spend one watt of electricity, a heat pump gives me greater than one watt of heat. >If I take away the first line, the second line is still true with nothing to compare it to.
Why would a plumber charge extra? Isn't it the same hookups?
>I can't find where it says what these regulations will raise the price of the water heater to. That's never mentioned, of course. Plus there's the added complexity, which means more service calls, and your energy savings go down the drain.
Welcome to 'green' industries. They are less efficient, more expensive, and they are soon to be required. It is all a grift.
I paid $1100 for mine on sale this past November, normal price was $1500. They are more expensive for a heat pump water heater but they will get cheaper over the next few years as more brands start to make them. As for savings, mine replaced an electric one that used over $500 of electricity each year to now using about $100 a year. While the initial cost is higher over its life time they save thousands and you notice the lower energy bill from day one. Over a 10 year life in my case, I will save over $4000 in operating cost. Heat pump water heaters are totally worth it.
When I looked into them, I was told I would need to add a water softener to my whole system because of the hard water in the area. That meant that the price to install was a few hundred to thousand higher and also a few hundred extra a year. Making it so I might 'save' over 10 years only something closer to $500-$1500. After the initial cost of the water softener installation (requiring a pipe out and all) meant it would take something like 15-20 years before it was paid for (accounting for replacements of the heater at time and all).
You should have had a water softening system regardless.
Yup, I'm paying $8/mo for hot water now, at $0.10/kwh.
I'm paying about $10 a month now, vs \~$35 before and it's great. I never run out of hot water and my garage gets a little bit of AC and dehumidification.
That is amazing, thanks for the details.
So this wouldn't affect gas water heaters at all, right?
Texas would here unto the end of days of the planet earth respectfully decline anything that saves its citizens any kind of money or put any undo hardships on CEO pay or executive bonuses. Give us more of that. Mmm. Yes.
I would love to see a comparison on solar panels with a heat pump water heater vs a couple of extra panels and a cheap electric water heater. A simple timer and you only use solar energy for your hot water needs.
"Oooh, i guess we can raise the price again!" - Utility companies
Pipe dreams by bureaucrats who pull numbers out of the air. No one is going to save that much. They don’t tell you the new efficiency units will cost 4-7 times as much so your paying a lot upfront to save a little over the course of the life of the unit. Plus having just outlawed most types of more efficient Freon you’ll save even less and have to have it serviced just like your AC.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-Platinum-50-Gal-10-Year-Hybrid-High-Efficiency-Tank-Electric-Heat-Pump-Water-Heater-XE50T10H45U0/312742081 https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rheem-Performance-50-Gal-4500-Watt-Elements-Medium-Electric-Water-Heater-with-6-Year-Tank-Warranty-and-240-Volt-XE50M06ST45U1/326434092 Not quite 4x, in the same brand that's well regarded, with a 10 year vs 6 year warranty. I didn't price hunt at all, literally the first thing that comes up. If I tried I could probably find a more favorable comparison for either one, but that seemed dishonest so I didn't. Of course it'll still depend on your electricity prices. I only pay 11.5¢ Kwh here, so it'd be a pretty hard thing to beat. Maintenance costs hardly matter with a 10 year parts and tank warranty, which is all the longer you can usually get out of a regular tank anyways. Rheem itself says it saves an average of $3150 over those ten years. Even if we cut that by more than half and say it's $1500, you still come out ahead. The one thing not factored here is install cost. For those who have it in an open area like a basement, it's a drop in replacement. Same cost as a regular one. Don't even have to run new electric! If it's in a closet you need to duct it somewhere, but the cost of that is insanely variable. If we trust Rheem's estimates (or you live somewhere with higher electricity costs) the install would be easy to cover too. If someone's going to charge you $1500+ to run a duct... Ask someone else lol.
The problem is the refrig3rant used in heat pump water heaters, and the main problem is they are being manufactured without reclamation ports for refrigerant. I am all for more efficient uses of energy, but you have to be able to safely recycle the products
Most modern appliances use propane as the refrigerant which doesn’t need to be recaptured and can be safely vented if needed. It’s the most eco-friendly refrigerant.
But you know how this will go? Government will put a financial incentive for householders to upgrade their water heaters to the new standard, and water heaters at the new standard will go up in price by almost exactly the amount of the incentive.
Notice that the Biden Administration places tariffs on solar water heaters to keep them out of the US market. See: solar water heaters incorporating glass tube heat collectors and including glass tubes and stands with tanks (described in HTSUS 8419.19.0040) These tariffs were in fact created by the Trump Administration and mysteriously kept by the Biden Administration despite articles like this one touting the administration's commitmemnt to efficiency. If the Biden Administration was seriously concerned about efficiency, they would back off on the Trump tariffs and focus on products that really hurt the Chinese economy like electronics but the real goal is not to hurt China obviously but to hamper the transition away from fossil fuels.
Heat Pumps on water heaters are great IN WARM CLIMATES. It's a massive waste of energy in cold climates. I'm heating my house 9 months of the year. Unless there's a heat recapture system on the waste plumbing, I'm just unnecessarily cooling off my house. Plus heat pump water heaters require a larger room. This is a really stupid efficiency rule. Heat pump water heaters are great if you have a ton of space and are in a warm climate that uses a lot of AC. But if you have your water heater stored in a small closet or you are in a cold climate, it's a massive waste of money.
I'm already efficient with my house. 2 years ago I installed a tankless ( gas ) water heater. It's the best choice I have ever made with upgrades to my house.
Model and or brand?
Richmond encore series
Don't let the utilities companies know, otherwise the rates will go up...
Water heaters used to have a thermocouple which cost about 7 bucks to replace and you lit the pilot by hand . Now it’s a sealed combustion chamber and it’s been replaced by a thermopile which is the whole pilot assembly for 75 bucks . The gas valve is more complicated now . On some of them you have to turn the dial back and forth in a certain sequence to reset the valve if you have problems. Some of the water heaters have a vapor sensor that will shut down the water heater . They keep changing the thickness of the insulation for more efficiency which changes the length of the relief valve. Long story short , every time they do this the water heater cost more money and gets more complicated because . It’s out of control
I'm fine with efficiency standards, but if this would truly save consumers money, why haven't these more efficient heaters been sold without government intervention?
They have been. I've had two for a number of years. I wouldn't want to go back to non-hybrid heaters. I have zero complaints so far.
Some of them are also loud. So if you have your water heater indoors near a living space be prepared for noise. Also they require more airflow so if it's in a closet inside you need a louvered door. Again, more noise. And you need to do something with the condensate. So if you have an older home it's possible you now would need to plumb in a condensate drain which can add to the cost. They're great for new construction where these factors can be mitigated by locating the water heater in a garage and putting in a condensate drain is trivial.
Because they're a new technology, and people are slow to adopt new technologies when what they have is already working fine.
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If it costs the companies $100/heater to do this and it saves the consumer $150 in costs, they could raise the price by $101 and everyone wins. If it costs the companies $175/heater to do this, it doesn't make sense to change things (unless we're talking about the externalities of energy use).
Because they're not worth the money, therefore the political left has to mandate them.
The financial savings are pretty easy to calculate, and they definitely pay for themselves over the life of the heater, when compared to standard electric.
>and they definitely pay for themselves over the life of the heater, Ok, post the numbers and show me. If you can't, then "definitely" isn't a word you want to use.
https://www.google.com/search?q=heat+pump+water+heater+cost+calculations Why don't you post your numbers? You made the initial assertion that they aren't worthwhile. How did you reach that conclusion?
>How did you reach that conclusion? Because if the numbers made sense, then the idiot government wouldn't have to mandate them.
It's a matter of upfront cost vs total cost of ownership. By your logic we should keep relying on coal power because of lower upfront costs.
>It's a matter of upfront cost vs total cost of ownership. Which should be decided by each person, and not by the idiot government.
Can you provide evidence for your initial assertion, that the numbers don't add up?
OK, one month old account.
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Ever notice how all the press releases specifically state the "The Biden-Harris Administration" I don't remember them doing that with the Obama-Biden admin, it was just the "Obama Admin"
What a pathetic way to word this, we all know electricity costs will go up to keep the profit margins the same for the electric providers, the end consumer will never experience any savings, ever
The cost of electricity is going to go up regardless of whether you change your water heater or not.
This is just fundamentally wrong. If you are replacing something like an electric resistive water heater with a heat pump one, the cost of electricity would have to go up 500% for you to not see a savings. The majority of the rise in electricity price is from the cost of fuel. If you put millions of kWh of solar and wind on the grid that have no fuel cost while at the same time people are replacing stupid high use items like electric water heaters you reduce the increase in fuel use and reduce the increase in the price of electricity over time. Removing the majority of resistive electric water heaters and dryers from the US will save massive amounts of electricity.
It will save energy, it will not save money for the end consumer in the long run because utility cost will go up to adjust for any sort of lost revenue. It’s all a scam
Wrong. Just look at the energy guide, you're taking a traditional electric tank that uses over $500 a year to heat water and are replacing it with one that uses about $100 a year to heat water. The cost of electricity is not going to go up to that much to eat away that reduction in cost. Thats not how it's sold or priced. Take off your tinfoil hat and look at the actual numbers.
You’re wrong, has your electricity bill gone up over the last 10 years? I’m sure in that time you’ve switched all your bulbs to led, your tv and computer have become more efficient, what else has in that time? Yet we’re all paying more. Take the propaganda Johnson out from your lips and look around
Nope, try again you are 1000% wrong. You have your head so far up your ass it's not even funny. Learn to do math. The cost of electricity has gone up about 2% per year over the last decade. Electric utilities are regulated they can't just decide tomorrow to raise their rates 500%. My power company actually just lowered their rate on May 1st and that is the second price reduction this year. At the insanity you're talking about, it would take an entire life time of electricity price rises to eat the savings of going from a traditional tank to a heat pump tank. Take off the tinfoil hat.
Stating a percentage as 1000 and then questioning someone else’s ability to do math. Ok You’re wrong btw, keep slurping
Says the guy who does not have one in his house, knows nothing about them and keeps spewing conspiracy BS that has no basis in reality. Keep going for it. So again, you are 1000% wrong.
Sure, the efficiency goes up. But you’ll only get any savings if the heater lasts for 20-25 years. Otherwise it’s cheaper in the short term to own a gas heater.
Hey that’s cool’s DoE, now tell us where all that uap money is going 🧐
What’s uap?
This is it. This is the comment. Thank you.
Heat pumps add a lot more to the cost of construction thought. A business I know was forced to use one, and it added 20% more to their buildout costs. So new home costs will go up.
Maybe if they use the inefficient ducted ones. Ductless are cheap and easy to install, less than a day of work for an average sized building.
Heat pumps do not have to add much cost, we build them into sub $200 window AC units and mini refrigerators. The tech is nothing new. With in a few years a heat pump water heater will only be a 10 - 20% so premium on a traditional tank with the savings paying for itself in user a year.
It cost about 40k to add the required heat pumps. They would not allow ones that small.