I just watched that game. Syracuse 3-3-5 was fun to watch, they were aggressive and took risks sometimes putting 6 on the line in obvious running situations. Safeties would often come towards the box to play shallow, corners would play off.
But there’s more to it than rushing stat, they rushed 77 because they only needed 77. Minnesota won 28-20 leading the whole time with great starting field position every drive and good enough defense + pick six. Ibrahim played 1st half, ran chunks downhill when they wanted to behind their 7 OL. Syracuse stopped them running laterally though and short yard obvious run situations.
Minnesota won that game because their defense shut down Syracuse largely in the first half and killed two key drives in the third, giving up only fgs. (Reminded me of our offense with SF)
MN also got a pick six and a huge kickoff return. They were incredibly efficient in getting points. They had barely 200 yds total offense.
Syracuse did not lose that game due to the defense
This video as passed around when Tony White was first hired and these same questions came up. I think it'll answer you questions:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bCB9PIM0a4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bCB9PIM0a4)
Tony White's 3-3-5 is different from Iowa States 3-3-5. Its more run stopping focus and can look at times like a 5-2-5.
I want to say 5-2. I thought I remembered them talking about that in the video, went back to check the video, couldn't find it, and then meant to delete it from the comment altogether but forgot.
But if I'm remembering the video correctly it can shift into essentiallya 5-2 depending on alignment
This is it. ISU runs a variant setup to stop the spread offenses. That’s not what ours will be.
There are some great videos on the 3-3-5 and it’s inception . Highly recommend.
This is a fucking excellent question. I think of it similarly to 8-man football. Your Sam and Will linebackers essentially become interchangeable ends while your safeties are interchangeable linebackers. There's a mix of zone and man depending on matchups, but it does put a bit of a premium on corners who can handle their own
It's a system for smart players who aren't the most physically gifted. You just have to condition and practice like madmen, but that's how you beat teams who can pull talent in their sleep.
This has come up a few times, here's a couple of threads discussing the defense:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Huskers/comments/108l1r6/the_335/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Huskers/comments/108l1r6/the_335/
And a great article talking about it: https://journalstar.com/sports/huskers/football/a-3-3-5-defense-in-the-big-ten-nebraska-dc-tony-white-says-adaptability/article_1988e230-e167-568a-b52d-a4411ad3dee4.html
The TL:DR is:
- The 335 is a structure that isn't that dissimilar from a 3-4. It mostly just has to do with how fronts and coverages are called, not their designs. See [This comment talking about how it can easily get bodies into the box.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Huskers/comments/zgbdj3/tony_whites_syracuse_defense/izgud3p/)
- Busch ran a 335 for ~70% of our snaps that he coached last year and we did fine.
- Not all 335's are the 33 Stack defense that Iowa State Runs. White does not run a 33 Stack.
- From the article: Despite it's reputation, "Every B1G school but one, White said, used “11 personnel” more than any other last season. That’s one running back, one tight end and three receivers."
Also from the article: "Two other Big Ten teams felt the rough bark of that tree in recent weeks. Minnesota beat Syracuse 28-20 in the Pinstripe Bowl despite being outgained 484-215. With Long himself hired to run the defense in place of White, **the Gophers managed just 2.33 yards per carry — their second least efficient outing of the season — while running on two of every three plays**.
Illinois managed just 10 points a few days later in a loss to Mississippi State in the ReliaQuest Bowl. Bulldogs coach Zach Arnett — formerly Long’s longtime D-coordinator at SDSU — guided a unit that generated 10 tackles for loss (seven sacks) while forcing the Illini into uncomfortable passing situations."
EDIT: Mike Tressel, Luke Fickell's DC at Wisconsin also runs a 335.
> Busch ran a 335 for ~70% of our snaps that he coached last year and we did fine
And specifically it was better run defense because our 4 man fronts were absolute trash at stopping the run, partly because we had maybe 2 P5 level dlinemen on the field at any given time.
I'm not so worried about long-term "issues" with the scheme, but rather the first year issues defenses always have with new terminology and blown run fits/coverages.
It's actually kind of crazy how much better our defense got compared to where it was just earlier in the year. Obviously, it's not ever going to be a clean, simple comparison. Between playing time, player experience, scheme adjustment, the opponent, and general fatigue & attrition it's impossible to put these numbers up next to each other and call it good.
That said, here's the averages split between our first 4 games and the last 8 (i.e. Chinander's 4-3 vs Busch's 3-3-5);
Rushing yards: 233.5 vs 166.9
Rushing TDs: 3 vs 1.3
Passing yards: 280.5 vs 197.8
Passing TDs: 1.75 vs 1.4
And just keep in mind that those first four were against 3 non-B1G teams and Northwestern.
Don’t see it as a formation. It’s 3 defensive lineman plus any number of the linebackers and defensive backs designated to stop the running game. We won’t know who or how many on any given snap and neither will those 7 OL. I can’t count the number of times over the past few years that we had a play get blown up and had an OL or two not touch anyone because they were confused as to who was coming and who was dropping. I think the chaos it creates gets it done for us this year.
The idea that the big ten is some sort of powerhouse league that is above other conferences in physicality at the line a scrimmage is all media bullshit. Also you do realize that linebackers are the ones who are actually supposed to make the plays in the run game.
Same idea with he fullback being more “powerful” people don’t know what it watch but they see an I formation and think it’s powerful for some reason
From the spring game it seems like Rhule’s “fullback” will be a position used to keep inside linebackers honest. Extra blocker on a delayed blitz, check down route for the QB (also can keep inside linebackers out of the flats), draw plays, or making them honor the fake (to full back) on an outside run, toss, or screen.
I agree that its not for lining up and smashing skulls in some fallacious belief that Big Ten defenses are made up of Old Testament characters like Sampson and Goliath. Lol
It's really not that deep, it's easy to get caught up in personnel labels but it's really all the same in modern football. At least as far as the average fan should concern themselves. We'll be fine.
Edit/sidenote if you really want to know why everyone runs some kind of 3-high D you should read The Perfect Pass. The Air Raid was basically akin to the invention of fire for the sport.
3-3-5 is a multiple defense.
The majority of NFL and good college football teams run multiple defense.
EVERY defense has holes that can be exploited. It’s about minimizing those holes and putting players in the best position to make plays and succeed.
A 3-3-5 can be a 4-3, 3-4, 5-2, 1-5-5, and/or any variation of.
Let's chill on the scrutiny until the boys take the field.
As I understand it, Rhule wants to have a "positionless" secondary so he can bring "safeties" into the box for run support or leave them back in coverage. Linebackers can come up to the line and put their hand on the turf for a "stronger" formation. The 3-3-5 isn't just three down linemen, 3 'backers and 5 skinny fast guys. TCU out-rushed Michigan 263 to 186 in their playoff game running their version of the 3-3-5.
I’m a michigan fan - I have no idea how we had 186 yards rushing. Compared to every other game that year it felt like we got absolutely nothing done on the ground.
Not saying that’s a recipe for success but I mean Michigans offense is one of the Top in the nation and they beat Ohio State with it. If you can beat Michigans offense and pull off a W like that against them. Then I’ll take that any day of the week.
Giving up 45 points and 528 yards is not a good example of defensive dominance. You’ll have to do a better job convincing me that TCU did a good job slowing down Michigan in that game.
Edit: Downvoting me doesn’t change the stats. This game is not the example to use. Someone else used the example of Syracuse v. Minnesota. That would be a good example
I’m not debating who won the game. I’m not saying White’s defense won’t work. My point is that using TCU as an example of how the 3-3-5 will stop the run is not a convincing example.
Using Michigan, who is completely loaded on the oline and in general.. as your measuring stick for a defense isn’t the best.
I honestly don’t care about how the defense looks next year against elite talent teams. I want the damn thing to look solid against teams we match evenly.
The talent gap problem fixes over time with winning. You are not going to find a magic formation that will shutdown Michigan next year with our talent.
All I’m saying is don’t use that game as an example of how the 3-3-5 can stop a B1G rushing game. TCU barely slowed them down. I think our defense will be fine this year… might even be the strength of the team this season. If the Huskers can win the turnover ratio and limit the drive killing penalties that has plagued this team under Frost, they should come out +.500
By putting bodies in gaps. It's pretty simple when every player is responsible for their gap and executes. You can stop the run with 4 DL or 3 or even 2
One thing the 3-3-5 makes tough for opponents, is knowing where the threats come from. It's so flexible which makes it so confusing for an offense to attack
I can’t say anything that hasn’t been said already in this thread but I really think it’ll kinda end up looking like a 4 or 5 man front more often than not. Don’t get too lost in the numbers.
Bruh understand that in football , no matter the scheme, you can filter in different people and line up to make it basically another scheme. 3 3 5 is our base. Doesn’t mean you see a 4 3 with maybe a guy standing in 2 tech vs a 3
Geat question, we we're just discussing the yesterday.. Many defenses, with the right personnel and coaching can adapt to most offensive schemes. It's likely why we seem to have so many DB's and receivers in this class Get the sound, lighting fast athlete and then plug and play. Think of a larger version of our 4-3 base defense in the early to mid 90's. Seemed like we switched effectively from the 4-3 to versions of the nickel, dime, and some five on the line. I would love to see a mix of Trev Alberts ( athleticism, size) and Terrell Farley (speed kills) type linebackers or the ultimate blend LaVante David.
Most defenses are pretty multiple with their fronts nowadays. A lot was made about Chinander’s 3-4, but especially later in his tenure, he utilized even fronts pretty often. With the Big 10 being pretty varied in its offensive philosophies, I think it helps to have hybrid players, which Tony White’s defense aims to have plenty of.
WI hasn’t been a power run offense for like 5 years now and will only be straying further away from it under Fickell… Big10 is evolving, teams are starting to get away from that identity/culture (good for us cause we clearly CANNOT beat it)
A lot of versatility with the 3-3-5. Really can view it as a 3-5-3… can use a variety of different looks and if D-Lineman can eat up blocks that frees up backers to fly around and make plays.
Really depends on how well the D-Line can hold their ground.
Syracuse held Minnesota to 77 rushing yards in their bowl game last year.
This comment should be Pinned
I just watched that game. Syracuse 3-3-5 was fun to watch, they were aggressive and took risks sometimes putting 6 on the line in obvious running situations. Safeties would often come towards the box to play shallow, corners would play off. But there’s more to it than rushing stat, they rushed 77 because they only needed 77. Minnesota won 28-20 leading the whole time with great starting field position every drive and good enough defense + pick six. Ibrahim played 1st half, ran chunks downhill when they wanted to behind their 7 OL. Syracuse stopped them running laterally though and short yard obvious run situations.
Minnesota won that game because their defense shut down Syracuse largely in the first half and killed two key drives in the third, giving up only fgs. (Reminded me of our offense with SF) MN also got a pick six and a huge kickoff return. They were incredibly efficient in getting points. They had barely 200 yds total offense. Syracuse did not lose that game due to the defense
This video as passed around when Tony White was first hired and these same questions came up. I think it'll answer you questions: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bCB9PIM0a4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bCB9PIM0a4) Tony White's 3-3-5 is different from Iowa States 3-3-5. Its more run stopping focus and can look at times like a 5-2-5.
Wow with a 12th man, the 5-2-5 is very effective!
Thats the secret Frost never figured out!
Coaches hate this one simple trick!
Thinking outside the box. I like it.
Did he mean to say 4-2-5 or 5-1-5?
He meant a 5-2. We ran that back until the early 90s I believe.
That didn’t help me at all. Do you mean a 5-2-4?
I think the last number is usually inferred, like when people take about a 3-4 or 4-3.
This is correct. But why isn’t it 3-3?
Haha, you're so right
I want to say 5-2. I thought I remembered them talking about that in the video, went back to check the video, couldn't find it, and then meant to delete it from the comment altogether but forgot. But if I'm remembering the video correctly it can shift into essentiallya 5-2 depending on alignment
A 5-2-4?
Yes 4 DBs
This is it. ISU runs a variant setup to stop the spread offenses. That’s not what ours will be. There are some great videos on the 3-3-5 and it’s inception . Highly recommend.
Well Wisconsin isn’t doing power anymore with Fickell for one.
They’re also running a 3-3-5
Copy cats
What kind of offense does Fickell run? I didn't watch Cincinnati when he was there.
With the new offensive coordinator they hired they most likely will be running the air raid offense I believe.
Dairy raid
Underrated comment right here. 😂
milk cheese milk cheese
It’s just flat out not gonna work imo
His new OC in an Air Raid disciple.
Watch Wisconsin fans complain about not running the ball enough.
They will. They are taking a historically power run team and are going to do air raid. Shits gonna be wild. Hope it blows up in their face.
I just want to see Wisconsin not make a Bowl Game for a couple years and suffer for a bit. Then I’ll be satisfied.
3 4-5 win years. Eh, maybe 4-5...
Heck I’ll be fine if they go 4-8 and 5-7 for 2 years in a row. And that’s all they suffer with.
This is a fucking excellent question. I think of it similarly to 8-man football. Your Sam and Will linebackers essentially become interchangeable ends while your safeties are interchangeable linebackers. There's a mix of zone and man depending on matchups, but it does put a bit of a premium on corners who can handle their own
A player like Nate Gerry could be useful in this system imo.
Yup. And his name is Rex Guthrie
Nate Gerry was so damn good. I just remember every time I saw an excellent tackle I’d look who it is and it was always Nate Gerry.
Getting ejected for form tackling too. He had some BS calls against him.
He got fucked by refs on a couple of textbook tackles, too..
It's a system for smart players who aren't the most physically gifted. You just have to condition and practice like madmen, but that's how you beat teams who can pull talent in their sleep.
This has come up a few times, here's a couple of threads discussing the defense: https://www.reddit.com/r/Huskers/comments/108l1r6/the_335/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Huskers/comments/108l1r6/the_335/ And a great article talking about it: https://journalstar.com/sports/huskers/football/a-3-3-5-defense-in-the-big-ten-nebraska-dc-tony-white-says-adaptability/article_1988e230-e167-568a-b52d-a4411ad3dee4.html The TL:DR is: - The 335 is a structure that isn't that dissimilar from a 3-4. It mostly just has to do with how fronts and coverages are called, not their designs. See [This comment talking about how it can easily get bodies into the box.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Huskers/comments/zgbdj3/tony_whites_syracuse_defense/izgud3p/) - Busch ran a 335 for ~70% of our snaps that he coached last year and we did fine. - Not all 335's are the 33 Stack defense that Iowa State Runs. White does not run a 33 Stack. - From the article: Despite it's reputation, "Every B1G school but one, White said, used “11 personnel” more than any other last season. That’s one running back, one tight end and three receivers." Also from the article: "Two other Big Ten teams felt the rough bark of that tree in recent weeks. Minnesota beat Syracuse 28-20 in the Pinstripe Bowl despite being outgained 484-215. With Long himself hired to run the defense in place of White, **the Gophers managed just 2.33 yards per carry — their second least efficient outing of the season — while running on two of every three plays**. Illinois managed just 10 points a few days later in a loss to Mississippi State in the ReliaQuest Bowl. Bulldogs coach Zach Arnett — formerly Long’s longtime D-coordinator at SDSU — guided a unit that generated 10 tackles for loss (seven sacks) while forcing the Illini into uncomfortable passing situations." EDIT: Mike Tressel, Luke Fickell's DC at Wisconsin also runs a 335.
> Busch ran a 335 for ~70% of our snaps that he coached last year and we did fine And specifically it was better run defense because our 4 man fronts were absolute trash at stopping the run, partly because we had maybe 2 P5 level dlinemen on the field at any given time. I'm not so worried about long-term "issues" with the scheme, but rather the first year issues defenses always have with new terminology and blown run fits/coverages.
It's actually kind of crazy how much better our defense got compared to where it was just earlier in the year. Obviously, it's not ever going to be a clean, simple comparison. Between playing time, player experience, scheme adjustment, the opponent, and general fatigue & attrition it's impossible to put these numbers up next to each other and call it good. That said, here's the averages split between our first 4 games and the last 8 (i.e. Chinander's 4-3 vs Busch's 3-3-5); Rushing yards: 233.5 vs 166.9 Rushing TDs: 3 vs 1.3 Passing yards: 280.5 vs 197.8 Passing TDs: 1.75 vs 1.4 And just keep in mind that those first four were against 3 non-B1G teams and Northwestern.
Don’t see it as a formation. It’s 3 defensive lineman plus any number of the linebackers and defensive backs designated to stop the running game. We won’t know who or how many on any given snap and neither will those 7 OL. I can’t count the number of times over the past few years that we had a play get blown up and had an OL or two not touch anyone because they were confused as to who was coming and who was dropping. I think the chaos it creates gets it done for us this year.
By tackling the ball carrier
Ya, if the running back doesn’t get tackled, they usually get yards. Common mistake! Sad! (Lol)
The idea that the big ten is some sort of powerhouse league that is above other conferences in physicality at the line a scrimmage is all media bullshit. Also you do realize that linebackers are the ones who are actually supposed to make the plays in the run game. Same idea with he fullback being more “powerful” people don’t know what it watch but they see an I formation and think it’s powerful for some reason
From the spring game it seems like Rhule’s “fullback” will be a position used to keep inside linebackers honest. Extra blocker on a delayed blitz, check down route for the QB (also can keep inside linebackers out of the flats), draw plays, or making them honor the fake (to full back) on an outside run, toss, or screen. I agree that its not for lining up and smashing skulls in some fallacious belief that Big Ten defenses are made up of Old Testament characters like Sampson and Goliath. Lol
Goodness knows we will need an extra blocker. Dom about to earn that check.
It's really not that deep, it's easy to get caught up in personnel labels but it's really all the same in modern football. At least as far as the average fan should concern themselves. We'll be fine. Edit/sidenote if you really want to know why everyone runs some kind of 3-high D you should read The Perfect Pass. The Air Raid was basically akin to the invention of fire for the sport.
I’m honestly super excited for the 3-3-5.
We're hoping the league adjusts to us. /s
Don’t know why you got a down vote cuz I just lmao
Imagine Rhule said this to the press not knowing
3-3-5 is a multiple defense. The majority of NFL and good college football teams run multiple defense. EVERY defense has holes that can be exploited. It’s about minimizing those holes and putting players in the best position to make plays and succeed. A 3-3-5 can be a 4-3, 3-4, 5-2, 1-5-5, and/or any variation of. Let's chill on the scrutiny until the boys take the field.
As I understand it, Rhule wants to have a "positionless" secondary so he can bring "safeties" into the box for run support or leave them back in coverage. Linebackers can come up to the line and put their hand on the turf for a "stronger" formation. The 3-3-5 isn't just three down linemen, 3 'backers and 5 skinny fast guys. TCU out-rushed Michigan 263 to 186 in their playoff game running their version of the 3-3-5.
Watch michigan vs TCU and you’ll see
TCU gave up 45 points and 186 yards rushing. This isn’t the best example.
I’m a michigan fan - I have no idea how we had 186 yards rushing. Compared to every other game that year it felt like we got absolutely nothing done on the ground.
Michigan’s top two rushers both averaged 5.6 yards a carry
Boy you will never guess what kind of defense TCU ran against Michigan!!!
The one that gave up 45 points and 186 yards rushing?
Still got the W did they not?
Well, that’s a dumb response. Would you be happy giving up 200 yards rushing and 45 points a game? Do you think that’s the recipe for success?
Not saying that’s a recipe for success but I mean Michigans offense is one of the Top in the nation and they beat Ohio State with it. If you can beat Michigans offense and pull off a W like that against them. Then I’ll take that any day of the week.
Giving up 45 points and 528 yards is not a good example of defensive dominance. You’ll have to do a better job convincing me that TCU did a good job slowing down Michigan in that game. Edit: Downvoting me doesn’t change the stats. This game is not the example to use. Someone else used the example of Syracuse v. Minnesota. That would be a good example
I’m not debating who won the game. I’m not saying White’s defense won’t work. My point is that using TCU as an example of how the 3-3-5 will stop the run is not a convincing example.
Using Michigan, who is completely loaded on the oline and in general.. as your measuring stick for a defense isn’t the best. I honestly don’t care about how the defense looks next year against elite talent teams. I want the damn thing to look solid against teams we match evenly. The talent gap problem fixes over time with winning. You are not going to find a magic formation that will shutdown Michigan next year with our talent.
All I’m saying is don’t use that game as an example of how the 3-3-5 can stop a B1G rushing game. TCU barely slowed them down. I think our defense will be fine this year… might even be the strength of the team this season. If the Huskers can win the turnover ratio and limit the drive killing penalties that has plagued this team under Frost, they should come out +.500
TCU used it against Michigan, and did fairly well!
I have visions of massive, seasoned B1G OL’s overwhelming the Husker 3-3-5. I think the Husker’s hope is disruption, early and often.
By putting bodies in gaps. It's pretty simple when every player is responsible for their gap and executes. You can stop the run with 4 DL or 3 or even 2 One thing the 3-3-5 makes tough for opponents, is knowing where the threats come from. It's so flexible which makes it so confusing for an offense to attack
I can’t say anything that hasn’t been said already in this thread but I really think it’ll kinda end up looking like a 4 or 5 man front more often than not. Don’t get too lost in the numbers.
Bruh understand that in football , no matter the scheme, you can filter in different people and line up to make it basically another scheme. 3 3 5 is our base. Doesn’t mean you see a 4 3 with maybe a guy standing in 2 tech vs a 3
Geat question, we we're just discussing the yesterday.. Many defenses, with the right personnel and coaching can adapt to most offensive schemes. It's likely why we seem to have so many DB's and receivers in this class Get the sound, lighting fast athlete and then plug and play. Think of a larger version of our 4-3 base defense in the early to mid 90's. Seemed like we switched effectively from the 4-3 to versions of the nickel, dime, and some five on the line. I would love to see a mix of Trev Alberts ( athleticism, size) and Terrell Farley (speed kills) type linebackers or the ultimate blend LaVante David.
Most defenses are pretty multiple with their fronts nowadays. A lot was made about Chinander’s 3-4, but especially later in his tenure, he utilized even fronts pretty often. With the Big 10 being pretty varied in its offensive philosophies, I think it helps to have hybrid players, which Tony White’s defense aims to have plenty of.
All these schemes are hybrids. You still put in the proper personnel to match the offense.
WI hasn’t been a power run offense for like 5 years now and will only be straying further away from it under Fickell… Big10 is evolving, teams are starting to get away from that identity/culture (good for us cause we clearly CANNOT beat it)
A lot of versatility with the 3-3-5. Really can view it as a 3-5-3… can use a variety of different looks and if D-Lineman can eat up blocks that frees up backers to fly around and make plays. Really depends on how well the D-Line can hold their ground.