Assuming the mikvah is kosher, it comes down to whether you think the witnesses are valid and whether the individual is accepting the yoke of the commandments. (kabbalat mitzvot)
In terms of policy, Orthodox institutions operate on the assumption that non-O beit din don't have valid witnesses and that the converts don't accept the commandments, because the movements aren't exacting on them expectation to be shomer mitzvot.
its as simple as:
Part of the conversion process is taking on the "yoke of the commandments" and conversion candidates can't reject any commandments.
If reform don't believe halacha is binding, how can they certify reliably that the people they're converting are taking on 'yoke of commandments" that judaism requires? The entire movement has literally said they don't have to take them on. There's no way they can reliably convert anyone, from an orthodox perspective.
Thus they don't meet the the basic requirements for conversion, and orthodox dont consider the conversions valid.
Saying halacha isn't binding and doesn't matter has consequences to how people who take halacha seriously consider the movement, and this is one of them.
Being welcomed at a modern orthodox synagogue is great, but if they knew your conversion details they wont count you for a minyan, won't bring you up for an aliyah, etc. You'd essentially be there as an observer from their perspective. I feel, btw, that morally you should let them know about your conversion because if they assume you're orthodox kosher jewish you will cause them to violate jewish law from their perspective if they involve you unknowingly, or rely on your for a minyan, etc.
That makes sense, so it's the larger movement's approach that dictates how others will see it, rather than just the circumstances of any one synagogue's conversion practices. Very clarifying, thank you!
I brought up the various shuls just to show that I wasn't out here with a bone to pick - I'm always very upfront about my conversion.
>Being welcomed at a modern orthodox synagogue is great, but if they knew your conversion details they wont count you for a minyan, won't bring you up for an aliyah, etc. You'd essentially be there as an observer from their perspective. I feel, btw, that morally you should let them know about your conversion because if they assume you're orthodox kosher jewish you will cause them to violate jewish law from their perspective if they involve you unknowingly, or rely on your for a minyan, etc.
Good that you made that clear.
Two things, Even if you did mikvah and hatafas dam bris, Reform doesn't feel this obligatory part of conversion it is a choice.
Also according to the Orthodox understanding of halacacha of conversions, you can't convert to be a non-observant Jew. Someone born Jewish is always Jewish regardless of observance, but one can't become Jewish unless it is their intention to observe the Torah. This doesn't mean you can't mess up ever but if you convert without the intention of keeping halacha or if you know going into it that you are not going to do it then your conversion is not valid. This also applies if you plan to observe halacha but you are doing it for cultural reasons and don't believe that G-d actually commanded it in the Torah.
Another reason would be that from the Orthodox point of view, a non-Orthodox beis din is not valid because the Rabbis either don't observe the Torah or if they do they don't believe in it's divine origin.
Something as simple as having a non-Shomer Shabbos witness would invalidate a beis din.
A lof of these things are discussed by the Rambam in his works on Hilchos Gerus.
Assuming the mikvah is kosher, it comes down to whether you think the witnesses are valid and whether the individual is accepting the yoke of the commandments. (kabbalat mitzvot) In terms of policy, Orthodox institutions operate on the assumption that non-O beit din don't have valid witnesses and that the converts don't accept the commandments, because the movements aren't exacting on them expectation to be shomer mitzvot.
Makes sense, thanks!
its as simple as: Part of the conversion process is taking on the "yoke of the commandments" and conversion candidates can't reject any commandments. If reform don't believe halacha is binding, how can they certify reliably that the people they're converting are taking on 'yoke of commandments" that judaism requires? The entire movement has literally said they don't have to take them on. There's no way they can reliably convert anyone, from an orthodox perspective. Thus they don't meet the the basic requirements for conversion, and orthodox dont consider the conversions valid. Saying halacha isn't binding and doesn't matter has consequences to how people who take halacha seriously consider the movement, and this is one of them. Being welcomed at a modern orthodox synagogue is great, but if they knew your conversion details they wont count you for a minyan, won't bring you up for an aliyah, etc. You'd essentially be there as an observer from their perspective. I feel, btw, that morally you should let them know about your conversion because if they assume you're orthodox kosher jewish you will cause them to violate jewish law from their perspective if they involve you unknowingly, or rely on your for a minyan, etc.
That makes sense, so it's the larger movement's approach that dictates how others will see it, rather than just the circumstances of any one synagogue's conversion practices. Very clarifying, thank you! I brought up the various shuls just to show that I wasn't out here with a bone to pick - I'm always very upfront about my conversion.
>Being welcomed at a modern orthodox synagogue is great, but if they knew your conversion details they wont count you for a minyan, won't bring you up for an aliyah, etc. You'd essentially be there as an observer from their perspective. I feel, btw, that morally you should let them know about your conversion because if they assume you're orthodox kosher jewish you will cause them to violate jewish law from their perspective if they involve you unknowingly, or rely on your for a minyan, etc. Good that you made that clear.
Two things, Even if you did mikvah and hatafas dam bris, Reform doesn't feel this obligatory part of conversion it is a choice. Also according to the Orthodox understanding of halacacha of conversions, you can't convert to be a non-observant Jew. Someone born Jewish is always Jewish regardless of observance, but one can't become Jewish unless it is their intention to observe the Torah. This doesn't mean you can't mess up ever but if you convert without the intention of keeping halacha or if you know going into it that you are not going to do it then your conversion is not valid. This also applies if you plan to observe halacha but you are doing it for cultural reasons and don't believe that G-d actually commanded it in the Torah. Another reason would be that from the Orthodox point of view, a non-Orthodox beis din is not valid because the Rabbis either don't observe the Torah or if they do they don't believe in it's divine origin. Something as simple as having a non-Shomer Shabbos witness would invalidate a beis din. A lof of these things are discussed by the Rambam in his works on Hilchos Gerus.
All very clarifying points, thank you