Honda dealers had to buy a new heavyweight two post lift, clear another lift’s worth of space next to it, and either buy or get a rental agreement on a heavyweight forklift for the Prologue.
Even if they are a tiny dealer in a rural flyover town and will likely never service the battery.
I'm in this picture and I don't like it. I'm a tech with a massive technology hobby who always ends up with 6 cars out back doing updates because "that guy knows computers"
No the updates aren't bad. It's the random lube pit kid coming up to me every couple hours with his nasty-ass laptop asking why the "wifey" quit working thats annoying.
EDIT:
Holy shit just got this DM. It exists everywhere.
[](https://www.reddit.com/user//)2:01 PMHeyy jimmy how are you doing? Sorry to bother you but I saw your comment on [](https://www.reddit.com/r/justrolledintheshop) saying you handle software stuff in your shop. My father owns an automotive shop in Beirut Lebanon and I want to add this type of service and knowledge to our shop. Could you please tell me what kind of tools and software are you using? Is it brand dependent?
Sorry should have clarified. It's the lube pit computer, not a personal laptop, and I did end up talking my way into 8 hours a week adjustment for all the random IT interruptions when I finally brought it to my foreman. There wasn't (and still isn't) an official IT position at that dealer, and they really could have used one.
I work in IT now and that's one of the key things you learn quick. There's a quick way to end all the questions. If it's job related, make the company pay you for it. If it's personal, make the person pay you for it.
You'll find out what's actually important real quick when people have to spend for it. Giving free advice, especially if it's reasonably correct, is how you end up doing nothing but that all the time.
[If you don't value your time, no one will.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijs0iS3_ZM)
I talked my way into an 8 hour a week adjustment at that dealer for the random IT interruptions. It dropped them to a sane level and I got a bit extra for it. That dealer still doesn't have a dedicated IT position and they really could use one.
I moved on to medium duty now and very much set my own rate. A good mechanical skill set along with electrical/IT skills are turning out to be extremely valuable in the way MD is developing.
Sorry but joke
A doctor is at a party and finds himself talking to an accountant. The doctor mentions to the accountant "It's so hard to be a doctor. Family, friends, any time I go out people come up and ask me what's this? Should I get that looked at."
The accountant tells him "The next time someone asks for advice, send them a bill. Nothing serious, just enough to prove a point."
The doctor thanks him for his advice and leaves. The next day he receives a bill for 1 hour of financial advice.
It's not quite that easy. I do IT for a district, including the bus garage. We have one diagnostic brick made by Bosch that pulls codes for Ford brakes. I have to update the firmware from a german language site, then launch this sketchy app made by a company that Ford bought out 20 years ago. They tried to integrate it into FRS, but it's still the same crappy software they were using in windows 98. Multiple that by Ford, GM, Bosch, Cummins, Caterpillar, etc... We have to use 2 laptops because some of the software doesn't work with other applications.
Make it worth it for you. Bring it up to your foreman/shop manager. You are giving extra value to your company. They need to give some of that back to you.
I jump shops every 4-5 years when that stops working, and I'll say it's the easiest way to get a half decent raise anymore.
Toolboxes have wheels for a reason. Any shop worth their salt will pay for the move. Your manager sounds like a good guy. Maybe sit down with them and the owner and lay it out for them. Have options lined up when you do that, so a move is the worst thing that can happen. If you set it up right, you will have literally no downside to the conversation. It's a bump in pay, reduction in work, both, or new job with better pay.
It took me about 5 years to figure that out, but after I did, it opened up so many more options to me. I'd enthusiastically encourage any tech to jump into being a gamer/computer nerd. Those skills are surprisingly useful in the shop.
It's logical. I NEVER make assumptions and always break things down into tiny chunks and start with the simplest thing and work my way down. The only part of electrical I don't enjoy is tracing through harnesses (and the whole mess that can create), but even that's not too bad. I'm pretty sure the electri-illiterate techs get to the point where they assume they know the problem and end up way over their head by going at it backwards.
You just made me think of something...
My wife's '22 Volvo has been at the dealer twice because everything is controlled via touchscreens, some module shits the bed, and nothing works. It'll sit at the dealership for a month before magically they reload something and it starts working again. Never any explanation on what took them so goddamn long, and they have never said that they replaced anything, so they weren't waiting on parts.
Now I'm curious if the long repair times are because the repair techs there barely know how to turn on a laptop. I think you're on to something that shops are likely going to need to start employing someone that understands computers more than they understand cars.
Car manufacturers are generally shit at making software. Making software isn’t really that hard either but for some reason car manufacturers have always been really shit at it. Tesla is a tech company that is good at making software. Shame they are shit at making cars.
>Making software isn’t really that hard
As someone who's working as QA in software development... I think my brain just did the equivalent of throwing a rod reading that sentence. If only you knew. *The shit I've seen.*
Overall, yes. At some point, your quick lube type oil change places won’t be profitable with the remaining ICE cars on the road tire places will fair better. Aftermarket shops will have to adjust. But these cars will still need suspension work and other basic maintenance. They still have Oil in the drive units coolant and brake fluid. And at the end of the day they still will break, whether it’s issues with the batteries drive units wiring infotainment systems. Someone’s gonna have to fix it those without strong electrical skills will not survive is my prediction. You have to remember we’re still 10+ years before they say they will ban new combustion engines. But I imagine hybrids will still be allowed and that target might get pushed back plus you figure even after that date you’re looking at 10 to 20 years before there’s a huge drop off in combustion powered vehicles.
I personally welcome our new electric overlords. Motors and batteries are expensive as fuck, but the failure rate vs costs compared to engines and fuel seems like it comes out about even.
New ICE cars are just as stupid with the amount of wiring and computer bullshit, so why not go whole hog on electrical. At least the packaging of an EV allows the other wiring to be a little nicer, I would hope?
Basic maintenance? Worse, there’s nothing to do other than changing coolant and brake fluid. Tires need changing more often. There’s not much to repair other than replacing with new. Other than that it’s pretty much the same.
Repair jobs are nice too, just make sure everything is discharged and disconnected before doing anything.
Changing cells on a battery is nerve wrecking and lethal if you fuck around. I put in Ear phones so I don’t get disturbed or distracted when working on them. You’ll only know it’s lethal when it’s too late.
Less mess but less pay. More brain work equals less boredom but also less pay. Less heavy lifting and mess also equals less wear and tear on the body. Heading for 40 after 17 years turning wrenches and happy to be on the electric side of things, I could keep doing this another ten unlike the others still making bank but ruining their bodies. Just my 2c
Ford is using LFP batteries (160Wh/kg) for the Mach E and F-150 lightning (good durability, no risk of uncontrollable battery fire, etc) but they're heavy.
NMC (lithium ion that can go boom): 230Wh/kg
LFP (safe durable): 160Wh/kg
72kWh (standard range) Mach E battery will weigh around 450kg
91kWh (extended range) Mach E battery will weigh 570kg.
fun stuff: ~~CATL just released a brand new generation of LFP that comes in at over 400Wh/kg.~~ there are two 500Wh/kg batteries on the market (one from CATL, one from Amprius) being sold to aviation, and by the end of the year QuantumScape shoudl be shipping a ~500Wh/kg anodeless solid state for the automotive market.
edit: the CATL anouncement was today and i misread a stat. ignore that one, the others are not new.
It'll never happen in an official capacity. Maybe some cell rebuilder will specialize in upgrading old packs, but the manufacturers want you to buy new.
Actually one of the interesting things that GM did with Ultium is that they made it so all the subpacks don't have to be the same chemistry. say you have 400k miles on your GM Ev and one of the submodules goes bad, and they don't make that chemistry anymore? that's ok lets replace it with a $current_chemistry pack and off you go
I was close on NMC, LFP eluded me as is did that ticker symbol. Thank you!
The problem with these new solid state storage technologies is the profound toxicity of these packs. Quite literally, not a single part of there production, maintenance and disposal doesn't require the use of very poisonous chemistry: which only gets more severe the closer you get to initial manufacturing, deep repair or recycling and waste management.
If we don't do this right, the environmental cost could be worse than what we are dealing with now.
When I first saw the pic, I was amazed that the lift was carrying the battery. But holy hell, my dude has the car supported by big ass jack stands. Seems sketchy as fuck. I’m sure it’s safe, but the first time I’ve gotta do something like that my butthole is puckering the whole time.
Personally I would have lowered the car over top of a rolling cart and removed the battery and lifted the car back up, but the lift arms probably interfere with dropping the batteries, hence OPs solution.
At Nissan we have a battery lift/table that we put under the car and lower the battery. The battery lift raises about 5 feet, so you can have the car almost all the way up when you drop or reinstall a battery. We also have a giant lift/table for the new Ariya, but I haven't had to use it yet.
That’s how ford wants you to do it, you can see the table in the back around. The problem with the maches is where you have to place the lift pads is on a adaptor block and it just barely grabs the block, other way I do them is mobile column lifts that grab the wheels and use the table
Despite being remarkably complex (with software etc), it's kinda wild how "simple" EV's actually are. Beats the emissions spaghetti under the hood of a lot of ICE vehicles these days (bronco engine bay pictures come to mind).
Thats the problem, making a realiable software is hard. Not only because its dificulty level, but manpower and making it the less expensive or barely tolerable for obsolence
Yeh. The important software is the battery management, motor drivers and the control systems. The infotainment stuff is what people have issues with though.
It will become way more complex as self-driving becomes more of a thing though.
Software is only expensive in a vacuum. When you spread it over millions of cars it’s actually quite cheap.
Duplication is free.
Manufacturing cars on the other hand.
What is expensive though is fucking up making software. \*cough cough* VW
Most of the software issues with EVs have nothing to do with the EV part of it. Companies all use EVs to try and be like Tesla and overhaul all the electronics. The bones of the actual EV system are not that complicated.
I don't think reliable software is more difficult than other engineering of equivalent complexity; in fact, it's arguably easier due to the far lower development costs, availability of debugging, reliability of silicon, and more.
It's just that software, growing as a zero-cost, easy-to-change, and low-danger field (primarily computers) does not have the pride and quality of other disciplines. Tradesmen and good engineers take pride in their work; software development has a culture where bugs are acceptable.
It's actually not that simple. Traditional engineering involves the laws of physics and well-known, well-tested mechanical limits. Software, on the other hand, is dependent on Boolean logic. It sounds far less complicated, but what you don't see, and what leads to all these very public data breaches and devastating bugs, are unexpected paths taken by software based on various inputs that may or may not be easy to test for. The first launch of the Ariane V rocket was infamously lost when programmers reused the Ariane IV code but failed to account for its different flight path, which resulted in a value for vertical acceleration that the previous code couldn't deal with. The Therac-25 radiation therapy machine had a severe bug that overdosed and killed patients but only happened if a mistake was made and corrected within 8 seconds, so wasn't noticed during testing and for months until the operators got up to speed on using it.
Sometimes it is impossible to test all possible code paths without having real-world data, but at that point, the results can be pretty devastating, especially if it controls something safety critical. Tesla Autopilot is infamous for its crashes because the software "nopes out" at the last possible second and hands back control to the driver when it can't cope with a situation, but that may be one second from impact.
Source: I used to work as a software engineer. Now I work as a sysadmin deploying software other people maintain.
You're only replacing the engine here. The rest of the car (bodywork, interior electronics, suspension) is basically the same.
A lot less maintenance because you don't have to change oil or timing belt, but the consumables in the suspension are all the same.
From a cooling system standpoint they’re more complex than an ICE car. Multiple electric coolant pumps, liquid condensers, chillers, etc. all packed as tight as possible. That aspect can be a nightmare to work on.
But if we're going the same way all other tech has gone, it's so easy/cheap to swap out major systems, there's almost no need to service deeper components. This picture is a perfect example.
My business does the same thing. Have a problem with your screen? I put on a new one right now and you leave happy. Then I can tinker with the screen later and fix it on my own time or recycle it.
Have you seen the spaghetti under that hood or should I say “frunk”? Absolute nightmare of coolant lines and ac lines everywhere. Well this is on the Volvo EVs idk about other brands
The strange part to me is the stands are holding up An Entire Car .. and the lift is needed for the battery.
(I get it - it’s just that it’s a role reversal from before)
Pretty cool seeing that battery tray cover in the background, spent a good amount of time in Mexico programming/installing the system that cuts out all the holes in it
I deal mostly with the robots. I'll poke around in the plc when somethings not working to find out why, but that's the extent of my plc work. We built the system in Michigan then a coworker and I installed it in Mexico. 2 ABB IRB2600, Water Jet system. 50,000psi of water pushed though a 0.010" orifice to cut the parts!
They are just very big jack stands that you carefully position under the car. These stands can support a very large truck. The same as standard jack stands except very large and strong.
We had a full set of 4 stands like that, only bigger when I was at john deere. I believe rated for 10k lbs each (been a decade). Used them to install and uninstall the lift kits for the self propelled sprayers. Once corn got to a certain height, start putting the lift kits on. After season, take em off. Finally got customers convinced to leave em installed. Then they were used mainly as singles for final drive repair, or the local tire shop would come and borrow one when they had to do tire repair or replacements on sprayers. I was afraid to ask what deere made the dealership pay for them. One of those "you have to buy these special tools to sell that equipment" type of thing.
Many modern EVs with the 'skateboard' style batteries are like this. It's primarily for better packaging and cabin design. It's the best place to throw a gob of battery capacity without eating into cabin/cargo space. As a nice bonus the serviceability is great.
It will be really interesting what shapes cars will ultimately take when not designed around an ICE engine and a Transmission bubble up into the passenger space of the car. We have the frunk now just to give some crumple space up front and to still look like a contemporary car. But short of 4 wheels, a car could be configured in a lot of different more unique/functional ways and the batteries can be moved around to fit that shape.
That's what I figured. The Solterra is sadly a really crummy EV. Toyota badge and 3-5 years behind the tech curve.
I'm looking forward to seeing what Subaru does with their first party EVs
Off topic, but can you clear something up for me? I have a Solterra and the reverse beep inside the cab is very annoying. I’ve talked to my local dealership on two occasions because I read online you can disable the interior beeping. They insist they are not allowed to do that. Is this true? If not, how do I convince them to do it?
lol, cool thing is the BMS would say “NOPE!” and nothing would happen. But man, in the extremely unlikely event something does go wrong, you’ll want to be a couple football fields from the fire
We were told 25-30k couple years ago, I haven’t priced one out myself tho. We can service them down to the component level. So for the most part we aren’t replacing whole packs
All electric cars should have the same battery space. And there could be battery swap stations. As batteries improve, you could get a longer range battery if you want and it would still fit. Kind of like propane tanks. Or D cell batteries…
All EVs should have easily removable batteries, like a wireless drill, and all EV charging stations should have battery replacement stations instead of charges, where you pull up and get your drained battery swapped for a fully charged one.
Not using the Ford required battery lift I see. Interesting way of doing this. I didn’t think you were supposed to lift the bodies like this on a Mach E. Looks like some body flex with that front door seam. I wonder if it loses rigidity with the battery removed.
Dumb question but what happens to all these batteries packed with toxic heavy metals when we don’t have the ability to recycle them right now due to how costly it is to recycle vs getting new materials?
Pretty wild seeing the whole assembly dropped
Dumb dumb me was like "Wait if that's on the lift then what's holding the car up??? I figured it out but took a moment...
I had the same reaction
I had a different reaction
I had the same came reaction
I lost the game reaction
its been so long.
Why did you have to go do that. It had been a good run
I hate you
I also had the same thought at first.
I've never seen Jack stands that tall before.
Wait till you see them holding up a bus on those stands.
Can confirm, looking at 60ft of bus sitting on 6 stands, or 3 posts for that matter, never ceases to freak me out. I've been doing it for 8 years now.
What the fuck the thought alone gives me anxiety
Low floor buses have very little ground clearance. It's either center post hoists or wheel lifts.
Check out some pictures of yachts in dry dock. Especially with masts they look so precarious.
USS New Jersey
It’s in philly for repairs now isn’t it?
Yessir
Yup and I still hate it, start torqueing shit on and it sways...
Light rail service center has entered the chat...
I was having that reaction until you mentioned the jack stands thanks! Thought I was going crazy
Nah it's OK most people don't know electric cars are full of helium to offset the very heavy battery.
The future is now - flying cars
Where we're going we don't need... *roads*.
Without the weight of the lithium batteries EVs tend to float.
Like a boat? When do we go fishing?
Bluetooth lift
Imagine the first tech reading the how-too on this? “We’re going to balance it on long-ass jackstands?”
I was hoping it was a new lift design that was designed to lift the body off the chassis in the air.
Chevy dealers had to buy a motorcycle lift for battery swaps to get qualified to sell Volts.
Honda dealers had to buy a new heavyweight two post lift, clear another lift’s worth of space next to it, and either buy or get a rental agreement on a heavyweight forklift for the Prologue. Even if they are a tiny dealer in a rural flyover town and will likely never service the battery.
I thought this was a ev special double scissor lift.
Magnetic levitation Tall stands are soo 2023
You see, this lift runs on FM. Fuckin' Magic.
Drywall lifts?
Why is that guy storing all those rigid tool boxes under his car?! I kind of said that to myself for a half second
Same lol. I was like how to is the car floating? A pole jack ?!?!lol
I didn't even think about that until your comment and then went, "Oh shit, how are they?"
Holding a wingardium leviosahhhh until my nose bleeds
It takes 20 minutes to drop it out, not a big deal tbh
Shows how light the car is with the batteries out! 😉
On the Model Y the front seats and center console are also attached to the battery pack: https://youtu.be/FXpfU6I_T3w
Question from a non-mechanic... How is working on EV's versus gas vehicles? Is it better? Worse?
Less moving parts. Half the time software updates are fixing drivetrain problems.
Ah, fun. Never really considered the software angle.
I feel like shops should just employ 1 IT guy to do all the software stuff.
I'm in this picture and I don't like it. I'm a tech with a massive technology hobby who always ends up with 6 cars out back doing updates because "that guy knows computers"
that doesn't sound that bad though. Everybody else is dealing with stuck bolts and dirty engines, and you're sitting there watching progress bars?
No the updates aren't bad. It's the random lube pit kid coming up to me every couple hours with his nasty-ass laptop asking why the "wifey" quit working thats annoying. EDIT: Holy shit just got this DM. It exists everywhere. [](https://www.reddit.com/user//)2:01 PMHeyy jimmy how are you doing? Sorry to bother you but I saw your comment on [](https://www.reddit.com/r/justrolledintheshop) saying you handle software stuff in your shop. My father owns an automotive shop in Beirut Lebanon and I want to add this type of service and knowledge to our shop. Could you please tell me what kind of tools and software are you using? Is it brand dependent?
Tell him you'll charge him shop rate if he keeps asking.
Sorry should have clarified. It's the lube pit computer, not a personal laptop, and I did end up talking my way into 8 hours a week adjustment for all the random IT interruptions when I finally brought it to my foreman. There wasn't (and still isn't) an official IT position at that dealer, and they really could have used one.
Thanks for your insight, looking to focus my auto knowledge on the software side, would be nice to see a hybrid IT guy at more shops
I work in IT now and that's one of the key things you learn quick. There's a quick way to end all the questions. If it's job related, make the company pay you for it. If it's personal, make the person pay you for it. You'll find out what's actually important real quick when people have to spend for it. Giving free advice, especially if it's reasonably correct, is how you end up doing nothing but that all the time. [If you don't value your time, no one will.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iijs0iS3_ZM)
I talked my way into an 8 hour a week adjustment at that dealer for the random IT interruptions. It dropped them to a sane level and I got a bit extra for it. That dealer still doesn't have a dedicated IT position and they really could use one. I moved on to medium duty now and very much set my own rate. A good mechanical skill set along with electrical/IT skills are turning out to be extremely valuable in the way MD is developing.
Sorry but joke A doctor is at a party and finds himself talking to an accountant. The doctor mentions to the accountant "It's so hard to be a doctor. Family, friends, any time I go out people come up and ask me what's this? Should I get that looked at." The accountant tells him "The next time someone asks for advice, send them a bill. Nothing serious, just enough to prove a point." The doctor thanks him for his advice and leaves. The next day he receives a bill for 1 hour of financial advice.
HELLO MY WIFI IS SLOW PLS HELP THE WIFI NAME IS SPECTRUMCONNECT41892049577T6O30 AND THE PASSWORD IS LINKSYS738819203592844052$8930
and there are 47 devices on one poor little AP that hasn't been updated since Bush was president. And it runs the guest network too. Gotta love it.
Come now, Bush-era APs don't even have the concept of a guest network
It's not quite that easy. I do IT for a district, including the bus garage. We have one diagnostic brick made by Bosch that pulls codes for Ford brakes. I have to update the firmware from a german language site, then launch this sketchy app made by a company that Ford bought out 20 years ago. They tried to integrate it into FRS, but it's still the same crappy software they were using in windows 98. Multiple that by Ford, GM, Bosch, Cummins, Caterpillar, etc... We have to use 2 laptops because some of the software doesn't work with other applications.
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Make it worth it for you. Bring it up to your foreman/shop manager. You are giving extra value to your company. They need to give some of that back to you. I jump shops every 4-5 years when that stops working, and I'll say it's the easiest way to get a half decent raise anymore.
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Toolboxes have wheels for a reason. Any shop worth their salt will pay for the move. Your manager sounds like a good guy. Maybe sit down with them and the owner and lay it out for them. Have options lined up when you do that, so a move is the worst thing that can happen. If you set it up right, you will have literally no downside to the conversation. It's a bump in pay, reduction in work, both, or new job with better pay.
Hey, it makes you more valuable than a lot of other techs. Embrace it and let it make you more money.
It took me about 5 years to figure that out, but after I did, it opened up so many more options to me. I'd enthusiastically encourage any tech to jump into being a gamer/computer nerd. Those skills are surprisingly useful in the shop.
Dude, I hardly know shit at 4 years, and I one other guy get all the electric shit cause everyone punks out on it and over complicates it.
It's logical. I NEVER make assumptions and always break things down into tiny chunks and start with the simplest thing and work my way down. The only part of electrical I don't enjoy is tracing through harnesses (and the whole mess that can create), but even that's not too bad. I'm pretty sure the electri-illiterate techs get to the point where they assume they know the problem and end up way over their head by going at it backwards.
You just made me think of something... My wife's '22 Volvo has been at the dealer twice because everything is controlled via touchscreens, some module shits the bed, and nothing works. It'll sit at the dealership for a month before magically they reload something and it starts working again. Never any explanation on what took them so goddamn long, and they have never said that they replaced anything, so they weren't waiting on parts. Now I'm curious if the long repair times are because the repair techs there barely know how to turn on a laptop. I think you're on to something that shops are likely going to need to start employing someone that understands computers more than they understand cars.
I'm a IT contractor for a dealership, they also have a AG shop. I've helped run updates on cars and tractors when they couldn't get them to work.
Car manufacturers are generally shit at making software. Making software isn’t really that hard either but for some reason car manufacturers have always been really shit at it. Tesla is a tech company that is good at making software. Shame they are shit at making cars.
>Making software isn’t really that hard As someone who's working as QA in software development... I think my brain just did the equivalent of throwing a rod reading that sentence. If only you knew. *The shit I've seen.*
I’ve had two Acuras need software updates to fix their transmissions slipping.
With the rise of EVs, do you see a future where there are less mechanics due to the relative simplicity of EV vs ICE?
Overall, yes. At some point, your quick lube type oil change places won’t be profitable with the remaining ICE cars on the road tire places will fair better. Aftermarket shops will have to adjust. But these cars will still need suspension work and other basic maintenance. They still have Oil in the drive units coolant and brake fluid. And at the end of the day they still will break, whether it’s issues with the batteries drive units wiring infotainment systems. Someone’s gonna have to fix it those without strong electrical skills will not survive is my prediction. You have to remember we’re still 10+ years before they say they will ban new combustion engines. But I imagine hybrids will still be allowed and that target might get pushed back plus you figure even after that date you’re looking at 10 to 20 years before there’s a huge drop off in combustion powered vehicles.
I personally welcome our new electric overlords. Motors and batteries are expensive as fuck, but the failure rate vs costs compared to engines and fuel seems like it comes out about even. New ICE cars are just as stupid with the amount of wiring and computer bullshit, so why not go whole hog on electrical. At least the packaging of an EV allows the other wiring to be a little nicer, I would hope?
Still took the poor guy at MG 2 hours to update my car because they don’t trust owners enough to do OTA updates.
Basic maintenance? Worse, there’s nothing to do other than changing coolant and brake fluid. Tires need changing more often. There’s not much to repair other than replacing with new. Other than that it’s pretty much the same. Repair jobs are nice too, just make sure everything is discharged and disconnected before doing anything. Changing cells on a battery is nerve wrecking and lethal if you fuck around. I put in Ear phones so I don’t get disturbed or distracted when working on them. You’ll only know it’s lethal when it’s too late.
Less mess but less pay. More brain work equals less boredom but also less pay. Less heavy lifting and mess also equals less wear and tear on the body. Heading for 40 after 17 years turning wrenches and happy to be on the electric side of things, I could keep doing this another ten unlike the others still making bank but ruining their bodies. Just my 2c
Damn Ford out here with that battery less hover car technology (/S)
The battery holds it down, otherwise it floats off😂
What does that assembly weigh in at?
1k ish
kilos?
Bald eagles (pounds)
Actually about 95 bald eagles, assuming an average weight of 10.5 lbs per Wikipedia
I was waiting for someone to do that math lol
Merica
I'm from the us, Bald Eagles is certified s tier.
Freedom Fractions
Ford is using LFP batteries (160Wh/kg) for the Mach E and F-150 lightning (good durability, no risk of uncontrollable battery fire, etc) but they're heavy. NMC (lithium ion that can go boom): 230Wh/kg LFP (safe durable): 160Wh/kg 72kWh (standard range) Mach E battery will weigh around 450kg 91kWh (extended range) Mach E battery will weigh 570kg. fun stuff: ~~CATL just released a brand new generation of LFP that comes in at over 400Wh/kg.~~ there are two 500Wh/kg batteries on the market (one from CATL, one from Amprius) being sold to aviation, and by the end of the year QuantumScape shoudl be shipping a ~500Wh/kg anodeless solid state for the automotive market. edit: the CATL anouncement was today and i misread a stat. ignore that one, the others are not new.
Now all I need is an upgrade for my existing EV with one of those fancy new batteries. I'd love to see a 2.5x range boost just with a battery swap
It'll never happen in an official capacity. Maybe some cell rebuilder will specialize in upgrading old packs, but the manufacturers want you to buy new.
Actually one of the interesting things that GM did with Ultium is that they made it so all the subpacks don't have to be the same chemistry. say you have 400k miles on your GM Ev and one of the submodules goes bad, and they don't make that chemistry anymore? that's ok lets replace it with a $current_chemistry pack and off you go
sounds like the future is still getting here
Really awesome information here, I do appreciate it! Can you please clarify some of those acronyms?
CATL = [Contemporary Amperex Technology Co., Limited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CATL) NMC = Nickel manganese cobalt LFP = Lithium Iron Phosphate
I was close on NMC, LFP eluded me as is did that ticker symbol. Thank you! The problem with these new solid state storage technologies is the profound toxicity of these packs. Quite literally, not a single part of there production, maintenance and disposal doesn't require the use of very poisonous chemistry: which only gets more severe the closer you get to initial manufacturing, deep repair or recycling and waste management. If we don't do this right, the environmental cost could be worse than what we are dealing with now.
5 standard washing machines.
15% carbon fiber, 85% Flubber!
When I first saw the pic, I was amazed that the lift was carrying the battery. But holy hell, my dude has the car supported by big ass jack stands. Seems sketchy as fuck. I’m sure it’s safe, but the first time I’ve gotta do something like that my butthole is puckering the whole time.
Personally I would have lowered the car over top of a rolling cart and removed the battery and lifted the car back up, but the lift arms probably interfere with dropping the batteries, hence OPs solution.
At Nissan we have a battery lift/table that we put under the car and lower the battery. The battery lift raises about 5 feet, so you can have the car almost all the way up when you drop or reinstall a battery. We also have a giant lift/table for the new Ariya, but I haven't had to use it yet.
That’s how ford wants you to do it, you can see the table in the back around. The problem with the maches is where you have to place the lift pads is on a adaptor block and it just barely grabs the block, other way I do them is mobile column lifts that grab the wheels and use the table
It’s more how much of a pain in the ass putting the lifting blocks in place is verse this
Put the battery assembly on jackstands and the car on the lift (i.e. reverse of this).
Despite being remarkably complex (with software etc), it's kinda wild how "simple" EV's actually are. Beats the emissions spaghetti under the hood of a lot of ICE vehicles these days (bronco engine bay pictures come to mind).
If the software is done correctly EVs are quite trouble free.
Thats the problem, making a realiable software is hard. Not only because its dificulty level, but manpower and making it the less expensive or barely tolerable for obsolence
Agreed. But it is possible as an engineering discipline to make rock-solid reliable systems, if it's a priority and focus of the enterprise.
Yeh. The important software is the battery management, motor drivers and the control systems. The infotainment stuff is what people have issues with though. It will become way more complex as self-driving becomes more of a thing though.
Software is only expensive in a vacuum. When you spread it over millions of cars it’s actually quite cheap. Duplication is free. Manufacturing cars on the other hand. What is expensive though is fucking up making software. \*cough cough* VW
[удалено]
Most of the software issues with EVs have nothing to do with the EV part of it. Companies all use EVs to try and be like Tesla and overhaul all the electronics. The bones of the actual EV system are not that complicated.
I don't think reliable software is more difficult than other engineering of equivalent complexity; in fact, it's arguably easier due to the far lower development costs, availability of debugging, reliability of silicon, and more. It's just that software, growing as a zero-cost, easy-to-change, and low-danger field (primarily computers) does not have the pride and quality of other disciplines. Tradesmen and good engineers take pride in their work; software development has a culture where bugs are acceptable.
It's actually not that simple. Traditional engineering involves the laws of physics and well-known, well-tested mechanical limits. Software, on the other hand, is dependent on Boolean logic. It sounds far less complicated, but what you don't see, and what leads to all these very public data breaches and devastating bugs, are unexpected paths taken by software based on various inputs that may or may not be easy to test for. The first launch of the Ariane V rocket was infamously lost when programmers reused the Ariane IV code but failed to account for its different flight path, which resulted in a value for vertical acceleration that the previous code couldn't deal with. The Therac-25 radiation therapy machine had a severe bug that overdosed and killed patients but only happened if a mistake was made and corrected within 8 seconds, so wasn't noticed during testing and for months until the operators got up to speed on using it. Sometimes it is impossible to test all possible code paths without having real-world data, but at that point, the results can be pretty devastating, especially if it controls something safety critical. Tesla Autopilot is infamous for its crashes because the software "nopes out" at the last possible second and hands back control to the driver when it can't cope with a situation, but that may be one second from impact. Source: I used to work as a software engineer. Now I work as a sysadmin deploying software other people maintain.
You're only replacing the engine here. The rest of the car (bodywork, interior electronics, suspension) is basically the same. A lot less maintenance because you don't have to change oil or timing belt, but the consumables in the suspension are all the same.
Sure but how often do you need to get work done on your suspension? Most cars can go 200k without any work other than maybe an alignment.
Yeah I mean, in essense its batteries, charger/inverter, motors, and thats the whole drivetrain
The amount of emissions stuff in my car is wild. I think the intake timing can be changed up to 80°
From a cooling system standpoint they’re more complex than an ICE car. Multiple electric coolant pumps, liquid condensers, chillers, etc. all packed as tight as possible. That aspect can be a nightmare to work on.
But if we're going the same way all other tech has gone, it's so easy/cheap to swap out major systems, there's almost no need to service deeper components. This picture is a perfect example. My business does the same thing. Have a problem with your screen? I put on a new one right now and you leave happy. Then I can tinker with the screen later and fix it on my own time or recycle it.
Have you seen the spaghetti under that hood or should I say “frunk”? Absolute nightmare of coolant lines and ac lines everywhere. Well this is on the Volvo EVs idk about other brands
I bet it was easier than pulling an engine. Dropping the pack in a Tesla takes about an hour
Loads easier
Used to work for NIO, could take the whole battery out and swap it in 4 minutes
Pays 2.3
5.7 plus .6 for programming
Not too bad. Difficulty level?
low, just a lot of bolts
It looks intimidating asf but it’s not that bad at all you just need high voltage certs so you know how not to kill urself
You can do it with a socket wrench but an ugga dugga will do it faster. Leaf owners have been doing it in their backyards for years.
So what’s holding the car up? I see one brace in the back
4 stands, 2 in the front just out of frame and 2 in the rear
The strange part to me is the stands are holding up An Entire Car .. and the lift is needed for the battery. (I get it - it’s just that it’s a role reversal from before)
>2 in the front .. and 2 in the rear Nice!
The Spocker lol
Got a good nasal rinse from that one
Pretty cool seeing that battery tray cover in the background, spent a good amount of time in Mexico programming/installing the system that cuts out all the holes in it
PLC?
I deal mostly with the robots. I'll poke around in the plc when somethings not working to find out why, but that's the extent of my plc work. We built the system in Michigan then a coworker and I installed it in Mexico. 2 ABB IRB2600, Water Jet system. 50,000psi of water pushed though a 0.010" orifice to cut the parts!
All right, don’t tell me that whole car is held up by four tranny jacks
Not tranny jacks, each one of those stands is rated for 20000 lbs. meant to used with mobile column lifts
And how do they mount to the floor. Lidna curioys how it deals with stabilizing the load.
They are just very big jack stands that you carefully position under the car. These stands can support a very large truck. The same as standard jack stands except very large and strong.
We had a full set of 4 stands like that, only bigger when I was at john deere. I believe rated for 10k lbs each (been a decade). Used them to install and uninstall the lift kits for the self propelled sprayers. Once corn got to a certain height, start putting the lift kits on. After season, take em off. Finally got customers convinced to leave em installed. Then they were used mainly as singles for final drive repair, or the local tire shop would come and borrow one when they had to do tire repair or replacements on sprayers. I was afraid to ask what deere made the dealership pay for them. One of those "you have to buy these special tools to sell that equipment" type of thing.
At least half the weight is in that battery pack Edit: 20-25%
No. The battery pack in a Mach E is 1,000 (see OP's response to a question) The curb weight is 4400 to 4900 lbs.
I don't think so, after all there are only two in the picture
it looks like ford actually made it relatively easy to access that battery array for servicing.
Many modern EVs with the 'skateboard' style batteries are like this. It's primarily for better packaging and cabin design. It's the best place to throw a gob of battery capacity without eating into cabin/cargo space. As a nice bonus the serviceability is great.
And the center of gravity is low too.
It will be really interesting what shapes cars will ultimately take when not designed around an ICE engine and a Transmission bubble up into the passenger space of the car. We have the frunk now just to give some crumple space up front and to still look like a contemporary car. But short of 4 wheels, a car could be configured in a lot of different more unique/functional ways and the batteries can be moved around to fit that shape.
Most EVs are designed this way.
How much training did you need get to work on EVs? Was training a Ford program or a technical college program? Thanks!
All my EV training has been thru either ford or Subaru as I’m dual certified
Did Subaru train you for the Solterra, or are they already training people for their upcoming first party EV platform?
Just the solterra, I pretty much only work in fords but they wanted two ppl certified and since I do pretty all the ford Ev work they sent me
That's what I figured. The Solterra is sadly a really crummy EV. Toyota badge and 3-5 years behind the tech curve. I'm looking forward to seeing what Subaru does with their first party EVs
Off topic, but can you clear something up for me? I have a Solterra and the reverse beep inside the cab is very annoying. I’ve talked to my local dealership on two occasions because I read online you can disable the interior beeping. They insist they are not allowed to do that. Is this true? If not, how do I convince them to do it?
Wait is that serviceable on a per Bank basis? If so, that's actually amazing
We service in pairs, so in the picture there are 6 pairs of modules that can be serviced. They are bounded to a shared cooling plate(left to right)
Technically you can break down each module into individual cells too no? Just more complex and risky?
Now connect the red and the black wires and run
lol, cool thing is the BMS would say “NOPE!” and nothing would happen. But man, in the extremely unlikely event something does go wrong, you’ll want to be a couple football fields from the fire
I didn’t know Rigid made the Mach E Batteries
I can’t get over the fact the car is just sitting on pole jacks lol
Each stand is rated for 20000lbs, one of them would hold the car if you could balance it.
I see your table lift in the back, why are you not using that for the hv battery?
A lot quicker, don’t have to pull the rockers and install the special lifting blocks which are a pain to get lined up perfect
Interesting, I like it. 70% of this job is pulling all the trim off just to install those mounting blocks. Awesome job!
Yep, if I have to do modules I’ll use the mobile column lifts and the table, but for junction box’s this is the best
Just your daily reminder that this is NOT a Mustang
Out of curiosity what's the price tag on that battery pack?
We were told 25-30k couple years ago, I haven’t priced one out myself tho. We can service them down to the component level. So for the most part we aren’t replacing whole packs
“Will I dream, Dave?”
That looks like a ton of fun not.
Someone likes curbs it seems
All electric cars should have the same battery space. And there could be battery swap stations. As batteries improve, you could get a longer range battery if you want and it would still fit. Kind of like propane tanks. Or D cell batteries…
Until you give them your new battery and get the shitty one that doesn’t hold a charge
Everyone is talking about what’s holding the car up, but missing the extremely technical equipment holding the power cables.
That's one of those HV bungee cords
Thatll be 15k
As a proud owner of a 2000 shitbox that usually fixes herself if you approach with a hammer menacingly enough, this gives me anxiety.
bruh is the vehicle levitating?
Sitting on 20k jack stands
Always had anxiety pulling out the big stands. Be safe brotha
Car is so light without batteries it levitates
Now can you imagine a charging place with pits like Jiffy Lube? Roll up, tech drop battery, install new one and you're off.
All EVs should have easily removable batteries, like a wireless drill, and all EV charging stations should have battery replacement stations instead of charges, where you pull up and get your drained battery swapped for a fully charged one.
[Like this? ](https://youtu.be/Xzk6acQO-KQ?si=74JLkVo_-pay7hkx)
But that's a high performance mustang
Sketchy way of getting the battery out... they make roll under lifts for this.
Until you realize the battery costs more than the body.
Not using the Ford required battery lift I see. Interesting way of doing this. I didn’t think you were supposed to lift the bodies like this on a Mach E. Looks like some body flex with that front door seam. I wonder if it loses rigidity with the battery removed.
Too bad when regular folk have to replace one out of pocket they're going to find it costs at least as much as a decent used car
Good old 23S56 or 24-2017
Dumb question but what happens to all these batteries packed with toxic heavy metals when we don’t have the ability to recycle them right now due to how costly it is to recycle vs getting new materials?
Our dealer has a 4 post mobile lift that makes this recall cake. Haven't done one yet personally but seeing lots run through the shop
Hell, lots of trucks need to have the cab lifted off to work on the engines now. This is becoming standard.