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It’s a losing battle. The odds of challenging him, (and winning), and then actually winning the election are way too low for anyone who actually would have a chance to win the presidency in a normal election year. It’s political suicide.
That’s why I’m so sick of hearing this narrative. At this point Biden can’t step down. It’s way too late. And anyone saying he should is not a democrat. I think all this is coming from the other side to undermine his campaign.
> anyone saying he should is not a democrat
I have been a democrat my entire life. They just sent me another button thanking me for my recurring monthly donation, which has been going for almost ten years now. So long as he stays in the race, I will continue to support him and give him money and participate in GOTV operations (in a neighboring state where it might make a difference).
But I think his chances of winning are slim-to-none, that his debate performance was a fatal misstep and if he would just take an honest look at himself and step aside gracefully, we would be better off rolling the dice with Kamala or frankly almost anyone else who is able to make the case against Trump in a forceful and cogent way.
Biden looked at Trump during the debate like my elderly grandpa looked at the boat rocking back and forth as he was about to step in. "Oh god, that is scary as shit, idk if I'm gonna make it." That man is not going to be re-elected.
I’ve also been a Democrat my whole life and I don’t see Biden winning. I can still see Trump losing, but in the hypothetical match up between Trump and a ham sandwich polls have it at 50/50.
Even a forceful criminal will win against someone who appears to be an idiot not knowing where he is most of the time. Almost every appearance is embarrassing
>But I think his chances of winning are slim-to-none, that his debate performance was a fatal misstep and if he would just take an honest look at himself and step aside gracefully
I think this is almost a overreaction. I need to see a second debate or some talking event that is thinking on ones feet. If he fails at that then theres simply no room to think he is coherent and you have to vote knowing you're voting for Kamala Harris by proxy.
> I think all this is coming from the other side to undermine his campaign.
I think it's more the media has it's teeth in it (specifically the NYT) and won't let go. Much the same way they hammered the "emails" drum in 2016, we'll be hearing "he's old!" for the next four months.
JESUS, thank you guys!! It is the friggin' media. It started right after the debate on CNN. They came out bashing Joe. EACH Commentator (including van jones) took a turn bashing biden's performance. They did that shit for like 15 minutes at which point I turned it off. And it has been non stop on ALL media outlets. Even though THEY know its literally not going to happen. I am on a media strike until the convention next week.
> And anyone saying he should is not a democrat.
This is silly, there are countless Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters who would love for someone else to pick up the reigns. Unless you think Jon Stewart is a secret Republican trying to undermine his campaign.
I love how hard people in here are trying to tee off on you for bringing up Jon Stewart.
Everything he's said for months now has aged like fine wine and continually gets proven right every time Biden stumbles in some huge way.
Actually Republicans have been saying he should stay in the race because they see him as easy to beat. The people who are not Democrats are thrilled to see him still running.
They are threatening to sue anyone that shows up on the ballot as a replacement. It just further shows how sure they are they will beat Biden and how threatening changing this up will be.
No it isn't. All the best minds like Carville have agreed, whether he stepped down and supported Harris, or just stepped aside for a min primary, whether it would be Harris, Whitmer or Newsom, they'd have instant name recognition in 24 hours, massive within a week because so much attention is revolving around this election. Biden will lose, period. He was losing before the debate disaster and right wing media will play clips of that til the end of time pursuading independents. Reality is reality, Biden is not fit to serve another 4 years. He did a great job, but that man will not be capable within a couple of years with how fast he's degrading, and everyone saw it first hand.
At this point. Nobody can tell me that for these past years they were looking at Biden with stars and stripes in their eyes like "yeah! This is the man to lead us to victory! There is nobody better!"
That is solely on the Democrats. They had all this time to prop up the next person, to build up their public image, to show the people a better, younger and stronger choice. What did they do with all this time?
*"oh, an 80+ year old man who has trouble thinking will be perfect, our job is done!"*
And they wonder why voter apathy is so bad, and they wonder why fewer and fewer people are getting involved.
I fully agree with this sentiment. I absolutely remember Biden saying he would be a transition candidate and in my head that meant one term. I’m pissed he’s our candidate. But at this point what do we even do? I don’t think our country will make it through another trump presidency.
On the contrary, anyone at this point who believes Biden should stay in isn't a Democrat trying to make Democrats win as much a Bidenist trying to make Biden win.
The situation is precarious with or without Biden at the helm. People are very right to be mad at the Democratic party for lying about Joe being some vigorous spunky old timer behind the scenes and then very visibly showing his age anytime he steps into public view.
It's not actually a legal obligation for at least most of them (I think a few states might have laws or state party rules that truly bind them). They've pledged they'll vote for Biden, but they're mostly not bound by that pledge
I voted for Biden in the primary for lack of choice. But, if given a legitimate challenger I would have likely voted otherwise at that time and I most certainly would do that now given the current state of affairs. How should I be represented?
The delegate should represent your VOTE, not your personal feelings.
You had a chance to support a different candidate. You could’ve canvassed, made phone calls, or signed a petition of signatures to get that person on the ballot.
But like most people, at some point you decide it was “too hard” and went with Biden.
You don’t get to invalidate others’ votes bc you never liked the candidate. The matter is closed. Dems are coalescing around Biden.
The DNC rules state
> Delegates elected to the national convention
pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all
good conscience reflect the sentiments of
those who elected them.
I believe that's the wiggle room that makes them not required to honor their pledge. If they in good conscience believe that the sentiments of those that elected them no longer support the candidate they are pledged to, they are allowed to vote accordingly
Regardless though, the odds of pledges getting broken in mass against Biden's will is very low. The Biden campaign had a big part in choosing who his delegates are, so likely at minimum the bulk of them are major Biden supporters
They have to vote for them on the first ballot. Biden has to release them for this opportunity to have any meaning. Even then, they are Biden loyalists.
At my job we call these career limiting moves. You'd be done in the Democratic party if you stepped forward before Joe's stepped back. Joe is truly senile if he doesn't know this. Blaming elites is just the FU at the end.
The game of who would replace him shows how unserious the whole exercise is. It’s Biden *or* Harris. Those are the only options. Pretending like you’d have an open convention is outlandish thinking at best.
That’s what many do not understand. Their favs only “poll well” because they aren’t the nominee. The moment that new person is named, the entire primary will be relitigated and it will be a disaster. Even the people calling for a new nominee won’t let it go smoothly. Stability wins. Chaos loses.
The problem is a lot of the proposed replacements don't have good polling, likely because their profile is a lot lower.
While it might influence which candidate one chooses, it just means they would really have to put their name out there. If they had the same profile as Biden, a lot of them would be better options.
If Biden steps aside, we will see 4 factions break off who all want their particular pick. “Nominate my fave or I’m not voting”. Biden is saving the party from itself at this time.
Even if you put aside the issues of challenging Biden, ballot access rules per state are a thing. Signature gathering takes months, as does setting up campaign offices, staffing, etc. If someone didn’t have their campaign getting set up last November, they don’t have the time to set up now.
The only person with that campaign in place is Biden so for better or worse, he must be the person that runs.
Which is exactly what we've seen in the Republican party over the last few years, anyone who has dared to speak out against Trump has been systematically cut out and is now a pariah.
Of course he knows this. He has been a politician his whole life. This was a reminder to them and when nobody actually steps up to him, he looks stronger.
The problem is as a human he will only become physically and mentally weaker from here. He already appears weaker than Trump. I don't know if Biden has more lucid hours than Trump in any given day, but he is clearly in decline and Trump at least has the appearance of mental stability relative to Biden. I worry that Biden's cognitive decline is influencing his decision to stay in. I have seen my grandmother's faculties decline from dementia. It goes slow then fast, and in the end the stories he tells himself that are completely disconnected with reality will continue to influence his extremely important decisions as president - such as staying in the race instead of urgently building up a successor.
If he is going to be the candidate, I want him to look strong. I want someone but most importantly, I don't want Trump or any MAGA anywhere near the White House.
If he does a bunch of interviews, looks ok, people will think this is something he won. If he wins or steps aside, we should be ready for President Kamala.
While very likely correct, I think it's bigger than this. There are obviously a LOT of democrats, high and low, who don't want Biden to be the nominee.
The bigger issue is that they don't want to turn a bleeding wound into a gushing wound. A lot of them want to see Biden replaced, but the worst possible outcome (for the replace Biden camp) is that they mount enough of a resistance to completely compromise Biden's chances, without actually getting him to withdraw.
We could easily be there already, at which point anything goes. The problem is that if you squint hard enough, Biden still appears to have an uneasy chance of winning. As long as that chance appears to exist, you won't see a lot of democrats go full nuclear.
What we really need is a decisive downfall and a decisive rebirth. Anything short of that has an escape door.
> the worst possible outcome (for the replace Biden camp) is that they mount enough of a resistance to completely compromise Biden's chances, without actually getting him to withdraw.
Unfortunately and as you noted, if we're not there already, that's where we're headed.
And the fact that this is how the party works is exactly why the party has pushed Hillary and Biden for the past 16 years. Seniority and connections matter the most to getting the nod because the party elite don't actually believe they have competition from outside.
They think they can make sure the nomination goes to the person in their group that has earned it through service without consequences. But the chief consequence when the party has an uncompetitive primary where viable contenders are told to wait their turn is that the party puts a predictable bad foot forward and loses the general election.
The only time the party has momentum going into an election in the last 20 years was when a relative outsider, Obama, defied the party pick and had a competitive primary. They need to learn from that.
Voting... Voting is what matters. Seems you're missing that the voting for the primary is already done. Voters picked Obama, voters picked Hillary, voters picked Biden. But no sure tell us how this is all the democratic party's fault.
Donald Trump won his 2016 primary against 16 other major candidates. That's what a competitive primary looks like. The same type of interest cannot be generated if younger democrats feel like entering a race against a presumed incumbent is a career ending move.
Voters didn't limit the 2016 primary to just six candidates. They didn't choose the fundraising each candidate had. There is obviously a lot of internal politicking in the party, to its detriment.
If Biden wants the nomination, for all intents and purposes, it is his and he will be the nominee. The only prayer of him not being on the ticket is if he leaves voluntarily.
> Should one of the younger, popular representatives, such as Josh Shapiro from Pennsylvania
I've never heard of this person, and while I'm not a political expert I think that means he has no prayer of challenging Biden successfully.
I live in Pennsylvania. I like Josh Shapiro. But my guess is he has zero interest in challenging Biden for the nomination, rather he is currently focused on governing the state of Pennsylvania.
As are Whitmer, Newsom, Priztger, Moore ,Buttigeg (though I think Pete is aiming for the Michigan governorship after Whitmer term limits out).
Any Dem with true presidential qualifications won't be interested. They all know if they get drafted into a short campaign cycle without the huge benefits of being the incumbent and lose to Trump, their future presidential aspirations are toast.
Despite all the hang wringing, it's going to be Biden/Harris,
The Democratic message has been that this is the most important election of our lifetimes, and that democracy is on the line. If Trump wins, there may not be another election, etc.
How does sitting out this election for a better chance in 2028 mesh with that understanding of what is at stake?
Because they can't beat Biden.
Literally the only person who could replace Biden right now is Harris, because she is first in line. Outside that, there is no succession, no consensus candidate, no unified opposition and mounting a challenge is career suicide with no chance of success.
Because they can’t win. Challenging Biden for the nomination and winning it is a guaranteed way to have their campaign lose. Donors are tapped out and those funds went to Biden, not the new person, they can transfer them. Signature gathering and other ballot requirements have deadlines that need certain staffing levels in states that take months to build up, there’s no time for that. There would need to be a national campaign to raise someone’s profile. This stuff needs to start a year out, not 6 months out.
If someone challenged Biden and won, they would quite literally be a write in candidate in over half the states, they wouldn’t even be on the ballot.
That’s why no one serious is doing it. Biden should have announced he wasn’t running last year. He wouldn’t have passed anything he’s passed in the past year if he did that, but someone else could run now. But it’s too late for that, the next president is Biden or Trump. Any comment at all that is anti Biden is by definition pro trump.
Splitting the party by trying to go with an untested candidate is a recipe for disaster- there's historical examples of this. At most we could see a Harris-Biden ticket.
Also, the media does this every single time there's a debate with a rocky performance. It's essentially tradition to pound the "loser" of the first debate for weeks on end. Yes I concede there's more to the Biden situation, but this kind of reaction from the Media is nothing new, and some of it is actually deplorable this time around.
I always picture the people in those 'man on the street' segments on late night talk shows. They have no trouble finding people who can't even name our current VP. Those are the people you need to convince to vote for a new candidate between now and November.
Now imagine a person who doesn’t visit this sub and name another Democratic challenger politician they’ve ever heard of. That’s why this is such an insane Democratic self-own.
Dude the entire country is paying attention. If Biden were replaced, name ID would skyrocket immediately. The only self-own was believing that Biden was capable of doing this again after 2022.
Not the entire country. Just your bubble. I spoke to my older brother about this issue yesterday and he had no idea that they even debated.
The internet is not real life.
I’m finding the opposite in my end and as I talk to people. No matter which side people land on, Biden is a known quantity. Any new nominee is a mystery door. This close to the election, I’m finding that people don’t want an unknown. They want stability.
Well then I guess there’s mixed opinions out there. Not everyone who disagrees with you is in a bubble. I’ve found that what people want is someone clearly competent, which neither candidate appears to be.
I agree that feelings may be mixed out there. I also agree that not everyone who disagrees with me is in a bubble However, there is a bubble of weak-kneed people. This entire conversation is showing who the real leaders in the party are. I’ll tell you definitively, moving forward, it won’t be the people who tucked tail and ran at the first side of trouble. Every word out of their mouths will be used in ads for the general.
Joe Biden had a bad debate and a bad night 11 days ago. He has admitted that he had a bad night and a bad debate. Since then he has sounded much more clear and much more open about what’s going on with the party. That is leadership. There are people within the party showing that they can take a hit and there are people in the party showing that they will dump you the moment things aren’t perfect. That is gonna hurt a lot of peoples careers.
It’s my opinion that Biden’s staff has known he’s been declining, so they have sheltered him from public exposure. He doesn’t take open press conferences. He can’t speak to 40 people without a teleprompter. He had a bad debate. Then a bad (pre taped) interview. He’s going to have more bad nights because he’s upwards of 80.
His solution is to sleep more and not have public events after 8pm. IMO that’s unacceptable for the leader of the free world.
Real leadership here would be recognizing his limitations and stepping aside to let the bench he built take over. He said he would be a bridge to the next generation. Leadership is following through with that promise, not stubbornly ignoring the polls.
> Real leadership here would be recognizing his limitations and stepping aside to let the bench he built take over.
That was an option, potentially, in 2022 or 2023 at the latest. It's not a viable option 4 months out from the election. *At best* you can get the cabinet to 25th Amendment him out in favor of Harris, but that would be an epic meltdown of a shitshow as well.
Meanwhile, you have him running against a convicted felon who owes hundreds of millions of dollars for defamation suits alone, of similar age, who has been spewing incoherent word-salad for a decade, and it's been entirely normalized.
That's the point though. For the people that aren't paying attention but will wind up voting will either start paying a little attention the month or two before the election or just vote for the party. How does changing the candidate now meaningfully make it so they're less likely to vote Democrat? There will still be 3 straight months of attack ads on every single video you'll watch anywhere. Why would that not be enough time?
People don’t like instability in their lives. Biden has caused them none and the economy is not terrible. Brining in another candidate, if it’s not Harris, would be a nail in the coffin. Harris backs him. That’s where we are and this whole debate is just people spinning their wheels.
He went Bernie - Trump in 16 and Biden in 20. He says he learned his lesson and knows Trump is too dangerous. He also thinks swapping Biden out right now is stupid unless the guy is on his deathbed.
Doesn't matter. The average person has known of Biden for, at the very least, 16 years. Trump has always been known. Name recognition is everything and even if a new candidate were shoved down everyone's throat every day for the next few months, they'd still be less known than Biden and Trump.
that he's the old guy whos president right now. they think maybe there was a debate or something that annoying political people keep mentioning, but jimmy has soccer practice and mom is having trouble in hospice, and they need to figure out the paperwork to keep the home health nurse that helps dad in the shower...
You're delusional if you think random soccer mom doesn't know how bad that debate was. If anything, this woman wants the pre-covid Trump economy back where inflation was low.
She's not voting for a corpse to "save democracy".
These people are voting for trump. 100% at least in the south. Every SINGLE person I know that didn’t follow politics… That’s going through it…. They’re all voting for trump. ? Life wasn’t as hard in 2018. Life’s hard now.
That’s it. Nothing else matters
My point exactly. Trump gives them hope through manufactured fear. What’s the DNC doing? It feels like the gold paints melting off a garbage bag and they’re just hoping people don’t notice.
It does. Not. Matter. A brand new face will not fare better. If they're going to swap somebody in then it needs to be somebody everyone knows. Especially when it's this late in the game.
> It does. Not. Matter.
I couldn’t disagree more. What if the chances for Biden to lose were 60%? 70%? 80%? Would it matter then?
Yes. It would.
Id rather gamble on an unknown than go with a very likely loss.
Yeah. Biden may well lose but I don't see a realistic way to have a candidate whose chance to lose is less.
In abstract a lot of people want it to be someone different. As soon as you try to get them to agree on who the someone different is and how that works to get them in place that preserves fundraising, doesn't have ballot problems, doesn't look like Democrat insiders threw out the results of a primary that lots of people voted in and anointed someone else, etc. it gets messy fast and doesn't look like such a sure thing.
Both Nate Silver and the Economist's election models are showing Biden's odds to lose at over 70%
The only model not showing that is 538, which is using a new model built by a guy who gave Biden an 80% chance to win Florida last cycle
Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed? It absolutely matters.
England and France just held snap elections with campaigns only a few weeks long. There is zero impediment to an abbreviated campaign schedule. Back in the day, campaigns didn’t really start till Labor Day. We’ve got plenty of time.
>Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed?
So... Kamala Harris? Which is exactly who we'll get if the worst comes to pass. She's not terribly charismatic. Won't win a popularity contest. But she's smart, competent, has democratic values. If Biden gets elected and then keels over, I'm okay with the country being in her hands.
I'm NOT okay with the country being in Trump's or his designated toady's hands. Trump's VP pick will have only his obsequiousness to recommend him. Pass.
For one Biden has raised hundreds of millions of campaign cash that could not be transferred to a new candidate. He has fundraising connections that would be difficult for a new candidate to build up to the same level in a timely matter if he dropped out.
The $250M is a bummer if the replacement isn’t Kamala. But I have zero doubt that Biden would leverage his fundraising connections on behalf of the new candidate. I don’t think it would take long for all these mega donors to open their pocketbooks again.
Almost half of Biden's money comes from [small donors](https://www.opensecrets.org/2024-presidential-race/small-donors). There's no "connections" to leverage to make those people suddenly switch.
American examples of what, shorter campaign seasons? Absolutely. The way we do it now is a modern trend. Ike remained NATO commander until June of 1952.
Truman wasn’t going to be nominee until his speech at the convention… in July.
https://theconversation.com/how-did-the-us-presidential-campaign-get-to-be-so-long-119571
We are all humans capable of learning about our political candidates and making a decision about it in a short amount of time. And in all of my political news consumption, invariably, pundits discuss the late breaking voters that didn’t make up their mind until the week of the election, every election, because people aren’t usually paying attention this whole time anyway. For them, it’d make no difference if we started in July or September.
Because it’s literally a year too late to organize a campaign.
In Europe, all candidates ran on the same timeline. Trump has been running for over a year at this point.
> Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed? It absolutely matters.
The problem is in abstract this unnamed person might do better but as soon as you settle on a specific person you find problems as to why that wouldn't necessarily be the case.
>Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed?
They would. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
The average person still prefers Biden over trump. They're both old guys, but one is old and the other is old AND a convicted felon who has repeatedly shown himself to be entirely without honor.
The average person thinks an old guy who has fought to stop obvious scams like Ticketmaster and other hidden fees, enacted the biggest effort to fight climate change in American history, and guided America to the best pandemic economic recovery of any nation on Earth is better than an old guy who put tax money in his own pocket, used the powers of government like they were meant to serve him personally and not the people, and actively committed crimes to worsen the corruption of government. The difference is stark.
Trump has a hard limit at about 46-47%. Biden is getting lower than that, but there are about 10% of undecided voters.
Saying Biden is irrevocably behind isn't accurate. Things aren't going to be understood until you can figure out how these voters will go.
This unfortunately just isn’t true.
Polls consistently now show Biden outside the margin of error now.
Someone like Josh would quickly win people over in a media frenzy
Problem is that this is a chicken-egg problem because there isn't one person who just gets to "choose" the nominee/*. So in order to be chosen, the person has to be overwhelmingly supported by the party. This seems unrealistic. More likely there would have to be a ton of party infighting about who should be chosen and it's unlikely to stay out of the public eye.
* I guess technically biden could try to pick a president by choosing them as vp and then stepping down, but I think he's unlikely to do that unless he just kept Harris. But it's hard to call that scenario a "challenger" to biden.
>Once a nominee is chosen they will be a house hold name faster than that Hawk-tuh girl.
I'm not sure it's her *name* that's well-known. Kind of like people know "governor of Pennsylvania" is a thing but not the man's name.
The media is going to do everything they can to turn a new democratic candidate into the equivalent of Hillary undermining Bernie Sanders via 2016.
That's the risk. If the party cannot unite behind the new candidate, they aren't above spite voting them. Is that worth the risk?
I’ve never heard of this person either but that last name would be a rough sell for dems. Especially uninformed dems who think this person might be related to Ben Shapiro.
I was going to say the same thing. I'm absolutely on the upper end of "keeping up with politics" in my bubble of friends and family and I don't think I know this guy. Maybe I've heard of him in passing, but going from one of the most known men in the world to someone niche would be a non-starter, no matter how desirable they might be as president.
I understand some people wants to replace Biden, but it seems like they cannot agree on a single candidate.
I'd be more willing to entertain the idea of replacing Biden, if somebody actually stand up for the role.
What's the point of speculating potential candidates when none of them actually signal they are up for it.
Correct. I reckon the Trump campaign was poised to announce a VP pick, but hit the pause button on that while this Dem fiasco dominates the news cycle. Sit back and watch dem v. dem + Biden v. media play out for another week or two.
Fuck off, the only person who likes Joe Biden more than me is named Jill and I absolutely think he should step down. The right is hoping to Christ he stays in because it will be a bloodbath.
It's darkly amusing to watch from Britain. So many Democrats getting into a car being driven by a man who just nodded off on his last journey. But don't change the driver - it's his car!
The people who now want out of that car spent four+ years telling their political adversaries to shut up whenever they suggested taking grandpa's license from him.
The polls came back and biden is doing worse: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/
He also now has the lowest approval rating of his entire presidency:
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/
That matters in a race that has been evenly matched the whole time. The polls don't have to move much to ensure biden losses the election because it's that close of an election.
He’s doing worse than trump but the difference before and after is only a few points.
He was up briefly by 0.5%, now he’s down by a bit over 2%
Their core voters have not changed their minds significantly.
We are still fighting for the unmotivated/undecided.
Edit/added
The graph titled “Who’s ahead in the national polls?” is a 4 month time frame. The difference between the two candidates have never been more than 2-3 points. It’s still less than 3 points.
There is no significant change.
Second link “how (un)popular is Biden?” shows a 7 month time frame. Narrow that down to just before and after the debate and the line doesn’t change significantly.
According to their own methodology the core groups are not swayed.
“Right now, that interval shows that Biden's support could be anywhere between 39.4 and 42.2 percent, while Trump’s range is from 40.3 to 42.8 percent.”
This whole thing is greatly complicated by the timing of the convention (19 - 22 August) being two weeks AFTER the deadline (7 August) to appear on the general election ballot in Ohio. A similar situation exists with Alabama, Montana, and South Dakota.
It is an absolute certainty that efforts can be made to make last minute exceptions if Biden is replaced, but it's also an absolute certainty that those exceptions would be subject to significant litigation. The laws of those states are pretty clear on this, so convincing a judge the Democrats should be given a special exception is not an open and shut case..... and anyone trying to make that case would have to explain why Democrats scheduled their convention, with full knowledge of what the laws were, in late August. The Republican convention was time a month earlier, in mid July, precisely to meet the state requirements & deadlines for candidate nomination.
So it isn't anywhere near certain that Biden's replacement would even appear on the ballot in all 50 states. Good luck winning 270 electoral college votes if you don't even make the ballot in one or more states that *aren't* safely Republican *or* winner take all states.
I feel insane about this! Not even the NY Times is pointing this out in articles I've seen! Plus, the donations that went to the Biden/Harris campaign aren't free-for-all nominee funds, they can only be used by Biden or Harris.
On the second part, I was reading the FEC rules and it looks like they could donate all their funds to the DNC if they suspended their campaign. The DNC has a lot of flexibility on how it distributes those funds, including to a potential new presidential candidate's campaign.
Biden challenging "the elites" to run against him *at the convention* is hilarious. He's **the incumbent president of the United States** and ran unopposed with the backing of his party leadership. This is like challenging someone to beat you in a marathon but you get to start at the 41 kilometer mark
No.
Or, they can try, but they won't for the same reason they didn't run against him in the primary: they would get absolutely slaughtered in the vote, even if Biden released his delegates
Go look and see who won the delegate spots in your primary. They're going to be local office holders or members of your county's dem organization. So, hardly the elite, but not just random people either
There is no credible candidate that is going to convince those people to knife the sitting President, no matter how many concerns they might have
If I am correct the elected delegates are bound on the first ballot to vote for the candidate they were selected to represent. It’s possible to free them to ‘vote their conscience’ on the first ballot via rule change but A. It’s unlikely unless the President calls for it and B. They’re Biden delegates, the chances enough of them change their mind to make it actually competitive is somewhere between zero and one.
Thus to answer your question it would be political suicide and a guaranteed loss to challenge Biden at the moment.
Again, the whole thing is "Who?"
While there are concerns about Biden's age and (possible) cognitive problems, the flip side is *no one else* in the Democrat party has been seen as a viable alternative. The primaries showed Biden dominating all challengers. Even the most likely scenario of Kamala Harris being an option has been met with raised eyebrows.
Whoever would challenge Biden at convention would have to 1) convince the party establishment that they're the better alternative, and 2) show they had the capability to beat Trump. And it isn't going to be some unknown House rep that barely registers on anyone's radar.
>the flip side is *no one else* in the Democrat party has been seen as a viable alternative. The primaries showed Biden dominating all challengers. Even the most likely scenario of Kamala Harris being an option has been met with raised eyebrows.
You do realise that is all political theatre right?? Biden is far from the best leader/politician the US has to offer at the moment, he's not even the best politician in his administration.
Its all a just a Wizard of Oz style narrative that has been created to help Bidens re-election. Now they just need to spin a new one for this new guy. Because while politicians spend most of their time wheeling and dealing playing each other, they also spend a lot of energy playing us.
If we can not decide who should replace him we should have had this discussion 6 months ago and had an actual competitive primary. If Dems lose in November this is on Joe Biden's unwillingness to step down and be a one term President. The fact that the "elites" are now realizing this shows how out of the loop they really are.
People should listen to the Morning Joe interview referenced by OP:
[https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-i-am-not-going-anywhere-biden-confirms-he-s-staying-in-2024-race-214393925734](https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-i-am-not-going-anywhere-biden-confirms-he-s-staying-in-2024-race-214393925734)
There are definitely moments where it feels like we have the old fiery Joe Biden back. Then there are moments where he starts stumbling, loses his train of thought, and can't finish the sentence.
God, this is so frustrating.
We can't wait until the Convention. Either he needs to definitely show he is capable right now or we need a replacement right now. The election is less than 4 months away.
He's only going to get worse, not better. That's why this sucks so much. He's clearly lost a step or twenty in the last year and we have no idea how many more he'll lose from now until November.
It's utterly insane that we're going to hitch our wagon to him.
If his campaign and the WH don't pull their collective heads out of their asses and start an actual effective campaign, his poll numbers will be so bad - they'll have no choice but to challenge him.
It's bad enough he doesn't believe his approval ratings or the battleground state polls. Or the forecast models that show he has to win the popular vote by +2 to have a 66% chance to win the EC.
They have to actually start campaigning and taking this seriously. That far more than his age and debate performance is what has driven the rebellion over the past 2 weeks.
Why does it take a week to get a 20 minute interview done and then you record it in the afternoon instead of doing it live? He's the president. Surely, the network will accommodate his schedule. Or did they? That's the problem.
Why did it take a week to get the WH doctor to kill the Parkinson story? That letter could have been released a week ago.
Why are you sending scripted questions for interviews? Why hasn't there been a live townhall with questions from the audience held in prime time?
The campaign is it's own worst enemy and they can't figure out why the story isn't going away and why he's losing, yet they aren't running the campaign a typical candidate would. Where are the ads? Why aren't you in 5 different battleground states a day? Why aren't you out there every day stumping with the party favorites?
Where is the fuckin urgency? Yeah if things don't change, the party will have to step in because he'll continue to slip. It's not about his age, it's about his inability to run an effective campaign that can win.
> Why aren't you in 5 different battleground states a day? Why aren't you out there every day stumping with the party favorites?
I for one actually like the president doing president things like helping policy and managing global crisis as they come.
Agree with the rest of the points.
Due to the US's unusually long campaigning season, sitting president around re-election time do indeed need to be actively campaigning. It's part of the job duties. Joe hardly does that. Most likely because he is 81 years old and simply does not have the energy.
Block of wood could be more active and public facing than current Biden. Still don't want him going to the other extreme with Trump who spent the vast majority of time out of the office and getting jack done.
Especially with the current conflicts, a middle ground is better to balance both needs.
No thanks.
People have such wild political fantasies as if real life is like some kind of TV drama. It's not.
If (insert person here) wanted to challenge Biden for the Democratic nomination, they should have beat him in the primary. But they didn't.
In my primary you could choose Biden or no one if you’re a Dem, Trump or no one if you’re a Rep, only “uncommitted” if you’re a green, and the libertarians didn’t even have a primary.
The primary was rigged. Biden refused debates. Some states didn't hold a primary. The campaign used their influence with liberal media institutions to limit access of alternative candidates. Democratic leadership threatened potential candidates and punished actual candidates. The 2024 Democratic Primary was the sort of election that Mubarak or Saddam Hussein regularly won. We don't consider those valid for good reason.
Now you can argue that wasn't so bad because it was the primary, Biden was the incumbent and there wasn't widespread dissent. But then of course there appears to have been organized fraud regarding his mental condition. And yes the analogy is fine. What Biden is doing now by trying to organize yet another fake election at the convention using a fake primary as a justification is precisely what dictators do. He just hasn't corrupted the general election yet. Jan 6th is now off the table as a difference between the candidates.
Also, his point about running against 3 other people in the primaries was disingenuous. Of those 3 candidates, 2 of them dropped out during the primaries, and they weren't even on all states' ballots. Dean Phillips (the only one of them to have ever held elected office) dropped out March 6. Jason Palmer (a venture capitalist with no prior political experience) dropped out May 15. Marianne Williamson (a perennial nutcase and founder of her own religion, look her up) dropped out after the primaries.
There is nothing that says they are 'legally bound to him'.
https://apnews.com/article/replacing-biden-nomination-options-dnc-democratic-convention-d23c02047b6a2c991737915972a2fa4c
>In 2024, Biden swept all but one primary or caucus and the vast majority of delegates at stake in those contests. Those delegates are considered to be “pledged” to Biden, which means they were selected to fill delegate slots that Biden won as a result of his vote performances in various primaries and caucuses. However, under party rules, that pledge is more of a strong expectation rather than an iron-clad, legal obligation.
Wow, that’s interesting.
I swear I read the sentence “this isn’t the sixties and we can’t just duke it out on the convention floor, those delegates are legally bound to Joe Biden” somewhere in the past week.
Guess it was incorrect, or maybe I’ve misunderstood the context.
I am kind of convinced that it's something being pushed by the DNC to make people think it's useless to even try and get Biden to step aside. I have no proof of this of course but the reason I looked it up is because I heard the same as you, as in 'don't even bother, they HAVE to back him'.
So I guess the more important question is if Biden refuses to step down, and these delegates unite to put the good of the country over an 81yr olds ego, nominating someone of sound mind. Are these 4EVA Biden voters going tank the election?
Give it up. Biden didn't suddenly turn old last week because of his debate performance and he's not going anywhere despite the best efforts of the trolls.
But sure, keep on doing the MAGA's work for them and keep this whole thing alive. I swear the dichotomy that is American Presidential politics now is just plain stupid. Trump can bumble and stumble, promote fascism, and lie his ass off all day every day but the news, and apparently several folks who are either trolls or disillusioned liberals, seem dead set on helping the white nationalists win with this stupid "Biden's too old" bullshit.
Did I hallucinate the Democratic primaries this year? You know, the whole voice of the people thing? If these people were up to challenging Biden, they should have stepped up to the plate when the game was on, over a year ago.
It's not a torch to be passed.
Ask voters if they even know who Josh Shapiro is.
Joe's ego is annoying me. He needs to be selfless in this decision and he needs to be realistic about his polling and popularity numbers instead of denying them.
If he's showing us hard data where he looks like the best candidate to beat the anti-Christ himself, then convince us because that's what should matter here.
Who can beat the anti-Christ in November should be the only thing that matters.
With american voters, familiarity beats policy. Fame is important. I hate to say it but that's how it works here.
Now in this case, Trump's abortion policy has become tied to him like an anchor, so that won't help him. His fame won't overcome it.
But with the dems, right now everyone knows Biden. Many doubt him, but everyone knows him.
The only person who has a chance to usurp Biden right now and beat Trump is someone who may be even more famous than him.
Michelle Obama.
But I seriously doubt she wants the job. She's seen what it does to people up close.
AOC might work, but she isn't ready yet. But she also has a lot of time on her side. She's only 34. She can wait till both Biden and Trump are long dead before she even puts her hat in the ring.
The DNC - and various characters on this sub - should probably be aware that if they do things like forcing an unpopular/incapable/senile nominee on the country again, people won't fucking like it.
I said at the time, there should be a proper Primary. Biden should at least make an appearance, any challenger should make their case to his face and he should respond. People on this and similar subs melted down over this suggestion. Well, we all know how that worked out.
Fear of Trump has made the Dems stupid(er). They claim not to want a King and then treat Biden like one. Out of fear of Trump. Pathetic.
The way that half these comments are on his side too is driving me insane… How can you believe that democracy will literally be over if Trump wins then rally this hard behind the candidate who we all know for an absolute fact will lose to Trump. At this point I hate the DNC and these complacent liberals even more than republicans for so flagrantly and willingly handing power to them
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Everyone who would have a chance challenging him is declining to do so. Including the delegates of the Democratic party.
It’s a losing battle. The odds of challenging him, (and winning), and then actually winning the election are way too low for anyone who actually would have a chance to win the presidency in a normal election year. It’s political suicide.
That’s why I’m so sick of hearing this narrative. At this point Biden can’t step down. It’s way too late. And anyone saying he should is not a democrat. I think all this is coming from the other side to undermine his campaign.
> And anyone saying he should is not a democrat. Some of us just don't want a second Trump term.
> anyone saying he should is not a democrat I have been a democrat my entire life. They just sent me another button thanking me for my recurring monthly donation, which has been going for almost ten years now. So long as he stays in the race, I will continue to support him and give him money and participate in GOTV operations (in a neighboring state where it might make a difference). But I think his chances of winning are slim-to-none, that his debate performance was a fatal misstep and if he would just take an honest look at himself and step aside gracefully, we would be better off rolling the dice with Kamala or frankly almost anyone else who is able to make the case against Trump in a forceful and cogent way. Biden looked at Trump during the debate like my elderly grandpa looked at the boat rocking back and forth as he was about to step in. "Oh god, that is scary as shit, idk if I'm gonna make it." That man is not going to be re-elected.
I’ve also been a Democrat my whole life and I don’t see Biden winning. I can still see Trump losing, but in the hypothetical match up between Trump and a ham sandwich polls have it at 50/50.
Even a forceful criminal will win against someone who appears to be an idiot not knowing where he is most of the time. Almost every appearance is embarrassing
>But I think his chances of winning are slim-to-none, that his debate performance was a fatal misstep and if he would just take an honest look at himself and step aside gracefully I think this is almost a overreaction. I need to see a second debate or some talking event that is thinking on ones feet. If he fails at that then theres simply no room to think he is coherent and you have to vote knowing you're voting for Kamala Harris by proxy.
There were plenty of times biden was just looking into space.
> I think all this is coming from the other side to undermine his campaign. I think it's more the media has it's teeth in it (specifically the NYT) and won't let go. Much the same way they hammered the "emails" drum in 2016, we'll be hearing "he's old!" for the next four months.
*"New analysis reveals that Biden continues to age at an average rate of 365 days per year. How long can he sustain this?"*
If he's anything like the average American he's got a good -4 years left in him
[7.43, actually :P.](https://www.ssa.gov/oact/STATS/table4c6.html)
JESUS, thank you guys!! It is the friggin' media. It started right after the debate on CNN. They came out bashing Joe. EACH Commentator (including van jones) took a turn bashing biden's performance. They did that shit for like 15 minutes at which point I turned it off. And it has been non stop on ALL media outlets. Even though THEY know its literally not going to happen. I am on a media strike until the convention next week.
> And anyone saying he should is not a democrat. This is silly, there are countless Democrats and Democratic-leaning voters who would love for someone else to pick up the reigns. Unless you think Jon Stewart is a secret Republican trying to undermine his campaign.
I love how hard people in here are trying to tee off on you for bringing up Jon Stewart. Everything he's said for months now has aged like fine wine and continually gets proven right every time Biden stumbles in some huge way.
Actually Republicans have been saying he should stay in the race because they see him as easy to beat. The people who are not Democrats are thrilled to see him still running.
They are threatening to sue anyone that shows up on the ballot as a replacement. It just further shows how sure they are they will beat Biden and how threatening changing this up will be.
No it isn't. All the best minds like Carville have agreed, whether he stepped down and supported Harris, or just stepped aside for a min primary, whether it would be Harris, Whitmer or Newsom, they'd have instant name recognition in 24 hours, massive within a week because so much attention is revolving around this election. Biden will lose, period. He was losing before the debate disaster and right wing media will play clips of that til the end of time pursuading independents. Reality is reality, Biden is not fit to serve another 4 years. He did a great job, but that man will not be capable within a couple of years with how fast he's degrading, and everyone saw it first hand.
At this point. Nobody can tell me that for these past years they were looking at Biden with stars and stripes in their eyes like "yeah! This is the man to lead us to victory! There is nobody better!" That is solely on the Democrats. They had all this time to prop up the next person, to build up their public image, to show the people a better, younger and stronger choice. What did they do with all this time? *"oh, an 80+ year old man who has trouble thinking will be perfect, our job is done!"* And they wonder why voter apathy is so bad, and they wonder why fewer and fewer people are getting involved.
I fully agree with this sentiment. I absolutely remember Biden saying he would be a transition candidate and in my head that meant one term. I’m pissed he’s our candidate. But at this point what do we even do? I don’t think our country will make it through another trump presidency.
I'm politically neutral. I have no affiliation with either party but in order for chance to save our democracy the best thing to do is replace Biden.
On the contrary, anyone at this point who believes Biden should stay in isn't a Democrat trying to make Democrats win as much a Bidenist trying to make Biden win.
The situation is precarious with or without Biden at the helm. People are very right to be mad at the Democratic party for lying about Joe being some vigorous spunky old timer behind the scenes and then very visibly showing his age anytime he steps into public view.
That's just not true.
Nobody would have a chance of challenging him. The vast majority of the delegates are legally obligated to vote for Joe Biden at the convention.
It's not actually a legal obligation for at least most of them (I think a few states might have laws or state party rules that truly bind them). They've pledged they'll vote for Biden, but they're mostly not bound by that pledge
A delegate’s role is to represent the voters who voted for the primary winner—not impose their will on the process.
I voted for Biden in the primary for lack of choice. But, if given a legitimate challenger I would have likely voted otherwise at that time and I most certainly would do that now given the current state of affairs. How should I be represented?
The delegate should represent your VOTE, not your personal feelings. You had a chance to support a different candidate. You could’ve canvassed, made phone calls, or signed a petition of signatures to get that person on the ballot. But like most people, at some point you decide it was “too hard” and went with Biden. You don’t get to invalidate others’ votes bc you never liked the candidate. The matter is closed. Dems are coalescing around Biden.
The DNC rules state > Delegates elected to the national convention pledged to a presidential candidate shall in all good conscience reflect the sentiments of those who elected them. I believe that's the wiggle room that makes them not required to honor their pledge. If they in good conscience believe that the sentiments of those that elected them no longer support the candidate they are pledged to, they are allowed to vote accordingly Regardless though, the odds of pledges getting broken in mass against Biden's will is very low. The Biden campaign had a big part in choosing who his delegates are, so likely at minimum the bulk of them are major Biden supporters
They have to vote for them on the first ballot. Biden has to release them for this opportunity to have any meaning. Even then, they are Biden loyalists.
At my job we call these career limiting moves. You'd be done in the Democratic party if you stepped forward before Joe's stepped back. Joe is truly senile if he doesn't know this. Blaming elites is just the FU at the end.
> Joe is truly senile if he doesn't know this or, he *does* know this, and therefore felt safe in making the statement
So is great political play is to serve his own ego at the expense of the Democratic party, and possibly American democracy itself?
The game of who would replace him shows how unserious the whole exercise is. It’s Biden *or* Harris. Those are the only options. Pretending like you’d have an open convention is outlandish thinking at best.
It is funny that as soon as a replacement gets named, there is a whole host of reasons that person shouldn't be the nominee.
That’s what many do not understand. Their favs only “poll well” because they aren’t the nominee. The moment that new person is named, the entire primary will be relitigated and it will be a disaster. Even the people calling for a new nominee won’t let it go smoothly. Stability wins. Chaos loses.
The problem is a lot of the proposed replacements don't have good polling, likely because their profile is a lot lower. While it might influence which candidate one chooses, it just means they would really have to put their name out there. If they had the same profile as Biden, a lot of them would be better options.
If Biden steps aside, we will see 4 factions break off who all want their particular pick. “Nominate my fave or I’m not voting”. Biden is saving the party from itself at this time.
Even if you put aside the issues of challenging Biden, ballot access rules per state are a thing. Signature gathering takes months, as does setting up campaign offices, staffing, etc. If someone didn’t have their campaign getting set up last November, they don’t have the time to set up now. The only person with that campaign in place is Biden so for better or worse, he must be the person that runs.
Which is exactly what we've seen in the Republican party over the last few years, anyone who has dared to speak out against Trump has been systematically cut out and is now a pariah.
Of course he knows this. He has been a politician his whole life. This was a reminder to them and when nobody actually steps up to him, he looks stronger.
The problem is as a human he will only become physically and mentally weaker from here. He already appears weaker than Trump. I don't know if Biden has more lucid hours than Trump in any given day, but he is clearly in decline and Trump at least has the appearance of mental stability relative to Biden. I worry that Biden's cognitive decline is influencing his decision to stay in. I have seen my grandmother's faculties decline from dementia. It goes slow then fast, and in the end the stories he tells himself that are completely disconnected with reality will continue to influence his extremely important decisions as president - such as staying in the race instead of urgently building up a successor.
If he is going to be the candidate, I want him to look strong. I want someone but most importantly, I don't want Trump or any MAGA anywhere near the White House. If he does a bunch of interviews, looks ok, people will think this is something he won. If he wins or steps aside, we should be ready for President Kamala.
While very likely correct, I think it's bigger than this. There are obviously a LOT of democrats, high and low, who don't want Biden to be the nominee. The bigger issue is that they don't want to turn a bleeding wound into a gushing wound. A lot of them want to see Biden replaced, but the worst possible outcome (for the replace Biden camp) is that they mount enough of a resistance to completely compromise Biden's chances, without actually getting him to withdraw. We could easily be there already, at which point anything goes. The problem is that if you squint hard enough, Biden still appears to have an uneasy chance of winning. As long as that chance appears to exist, you won't see a lot of democrats go full nuclear. What we really need is a decisive downfall and a decisive rebirth. Anything short of that has an escape door.
> the worst possible outcome (for the replace Biden camp) is that they mount enough of a resistance to completely compromise Biden's chances, without actually getting him to withdraw. Unfortunately and as you noted, if we're not there already, that's where we're headed.
Only if you lose. And if Biden is as old and decrypted as everyone keeps claiming then it should be easy to push him off the throne.
Someone's really gotta put encryption on Biden
That's the problem, you cannot push him off, he needs to volunteer.
And the fact that this is how the party works is exactly why the party has pushed Hillary and Biden for the past 16 years. Seniority and connections matter the most to getting the nod because the party elite don't actually believe they have competition from outside. They think they can make sure the nomination goes to the person in their group that has earned it through service without consequences. But the chief consequence when the party has an uncompetitive primary where viable contenders are told to wait their turn is that the party puts a predictable bad foot forward and loses the general election. The only time the party has momentum going into an election in the last 20 years was when a relative outsider, Obama, defied the party pick and had a competitive primary. They need to learn from that.
Voting... Voting is what matters. Seems you're missing that the voting for the primary is already done. Voters picked Obama, voters picked Hillary, voters picked Biden. But no sure tell us how this is all the democratic party's fault.
Donald Trump won his 2016 primary against 16 other major candidates. That's what a competitive primary looks like. The same type of interest cannot be generated if younger democrats feel like entering a race against a presumed incumbent is a career ending move. Voters didn't limit the 2016 primary to just six candidates. They didn't choose the fundraising each candidate had. There is obviously a lot of internal politicking in the party, to its detriment.
How many primary opponents did Trump have in 2020, when he was the incumbent? Seems like that would be the more appropriate comparison.
Joe Biden is not "a presumed incumbent" he is the literal incumbent.
If Biden wants the nomination, for all intents and purposes, it is his and he will be the nominee. The only prayer of him not being on the ticket is if he leaves voluntarily.
> Should one of the younger, popular representatives, such as Josh Shapiro from Pennsylvania I've never heard of this person, and while I'm not a political expert I think that means he has no prayer of challenging Biden successfully.
I live in Pennsylvania. I like Josh Shapiro. But my guess is he has zero interest in challenging Biden for the nomination, rather he is currently focused on governing the state of Pennsylvania.
Realistically, he's probably more focused on 2028.
As are Whitmer, Newsom, Priztger, Moore ,Buttigeg (though I think Pete is aiming for the Michigan governorship after Whitmer term limits out). Any Dem with true presidential qualifications won't be interested. They all know if they get drafted into a short campaign cycle without the huge benefits of being the incumbent and lose to Trump, their future presidential aspirations are toast. Despite all the hang wringing, it's going to be Biden/Harris,
The Democratic message has been that this is the most important election of our lifetimes, and that democracy is on the line. If Trump wins, there may not be another election, etc. How does sitting out this election for a better chance in 2028 mesh with that understanding of what is at stake?
Because they can't beat Biden. Literally the only person who could replace Biden right now is Harris, because she is first in line. Outside that, there is no succession, no consensus candidate, no unified opposition and mounting a challenge is career suicide with no chance of success.
Because they can’t win. Challenging Biden for the nomination and winning it is a guaranteed way to have their campaign lose. Donors are tapped out and those funds went to Biden, not the new person, they can transfer them. Signature gathering and other ballot requirements have deadlines that need certain staffing levels in states that take months to build up, there’s no time for that. There would need to be a national campaign to raise someone’s profile. This stuff needs to start a year out, not 6 months out. If someone challenged Biden and won, they would quite literally be a write in candidate in over half the states, they wouldn’t even be on the ballot. That’s why no one serious is doing it. Biden should have announced he wasn’t running last year. He wouldn’t have passed anything he’s passed in the past year if he did that, but someone else could run now. But it’s too late for that, the next president is Biden or Trump. Any comment at all that is anti Biden is by definition pro trump.
"I hope Trump loses to Biden’s replacement!" Explain how that comment is pro-Trump.
Splitting the party by trying to go with an untested candidate is a recipe for disaster- there's historical examples of this. At most we could see a Harris-Biden ticket. Also, the media does this every single time there's a debate with a rocky performance. It's essentially tradition to pound the "loser" of the first debate for weeks on end. Yes I concede there's more to the Biden situation, but this kind of reaction from the Media is nothing new, and some of it is actually deplorable this time around.
I always picture the people in those 'man on the street' segments on late night talk shows. They have no trouble finding people who can't even name our current VP. Those are the people you need to convince to vote for a new candidate between now and November.
Those people just want the pre-covid Trump economy when eggs were cheap. Not sure they really care about names or "saving democracy".
There’s like 5 states that matter and he’s the governor of one of them. Respectfully, those 5 states are the only audience here
Considering the race is close in traditionally blue states that should be a lock, it actually matters everywhere.
Turns out I live in one of those 5 states, so, yeah. Whatever he does it does not make the news here.
Now imagine a person who doesn’t visit this sub and name another Democratic challenger politician they’ve ever heard of. That’s why this is such an insane Democratic self-own.
Dude the entire country is paying attention. If Biden were replaced, name ID would skyrocket immediately. The only self-own was believing that Biden was capable of doing this again after 2022.
Not the entire country. Just your bubble. I spoke to my older brother about this issue yesterday and he had no idea that they even debated. The internet is not real life.
I mean I’m talking to my friends out here in the world. I’m actually finding people on the internet to be more pro-Biden than my friends.
I’m finding the opposite in my end and as I talk to people. No matter which side people land on, Biden is a known quantity. Any new nominee is a mystery door. This close to the election, I’m finding that people don’t want an unknown. They want stability.
Well then I guess there’s mixed opinions out there. Not everyone who disagrees with you is in a bubble. I’ve found that what people want is someone clearly competent, which neither candidate appears to be.
I agree that feelings may be mixed out there. I also agree that not everyone who disagrees with me is in a bubble However, there is a bubble of weak-kneed people. This entire conversation is showing who the real leaders in the party are. I’ll tell you definitively, moving forward, it won’t be the people who tucked tail and ran at the first side of trouble. Every word out of their mouths will be used in ads for the general. Joe Biden had a bad debate and a bad night 11 days ago. He has admitted that he had a bad night and a bad debate. Since then he has sounded much more clear and much more open about what’s going on with the party. That is leadership. There are people within the party showing that they can take a hit and there are people in the party showing that they will dump you the moment things aren’t perfect. That is gonna hurt a lot of peoples careers.
It’s my opinion that Biden’s staff has known he’s been declining, so they have sheltered him from public exposure. He doesn’t take open press conferences. He can’t speak to 40 people without a teleprompter. He had a bad debate. Then a bad (pre taped) interview. He’s going to have more bad nights because he’s upwards of 80. His solution is to sleep more and not have public events after 8pm. IMO that’s unacceptable for the leader of the free world. Real leadership here would be recognizing his limitations and stepping aside to let the bench he built take over. He said he would be a bridge to the next generation. Leadership is following through with that promise, not stubbornly ignoring the polls.
> Real leadership here would be recognizing his limitations and stepping aside to let the bench he built take over. That was an option, potentially, in 2022 or 2023 at the latest. It's not a viable option 4 months out from the election. *At best* you can get the cabinet to 25th Amendment him out in favor of Harris, but that would be an epic meltdown of a shitshow as well. Meanwhile, you have him running against a convicted felon who owes hundreds of millions of dollars for defamation suits alone, of similar age, who has been spewing incoherent word-salad for a decade, and it's been entirely normalized.
That's the point though. For the people that aren't paying attention but will wind up voting will either start paying a little attention the month or two before the election or just vote for the party. How does changing the candidate now meaningfully make it so they're less likely to vote Democrat? There will still be 3 straight months of attack ads on every single video you'll watch anywhere. Why would that not be enough time?
People don’t like instability in their lives. Biden has caused them none and the economy is not terrible. Brining in another candidate, if it’s not Harris, would be a nail in the coffin. Harris backs him. That’s where we are and this whole debate is just people spinning their wheels.
Ok, but what was the likelihood of him even voting?
100% for Biden or whoever the nominee is, unless it’s a woman. His words, exactly.
Does he vote?
He went Bernie - Trump in 16 and Biden in 20. He says he learned his lesson and knows Trump is too dangerous. He also thinks swapping Biden out right now is stupid unless the guy is on his deathbed.
Wow, the coveted independent voter.
You do realise the media exists right? Once a nominee is chosen they will be a house hold name faster than that Hawk-tuh girl.
Doesn't matter. The average person has known of Biden for, at the very least, 16 years. Trump has always been known. Name recognition is everything and even if a new candidate were shoved down everyone's throat every day for the next few months, they'd still be less known than Biden and Trump.
Hmm. And what does the average person think of Biden right now?
that he's the old guy whos president right now. they think maybe there was a debate or something that annoying political people keep mentioning, but jimmy has soccer practice and mom is having trouble in hospice, and they need to figure out the paperwork to keep the home health nurse that helps dad in the shower...
Will they vote for the “old guy”?
they are both old, but one keeps ending up at trial and everyone agrees is super shady.
You're delusional if you think random soccer mom doesn't know how bad that debate was. If anything, this woman wants the pre-covid Trump economy back where inflation was low. She's not voting for a corpse to "save democracy".
No. https://www.realclearpolling.com/elections/president/2024/battleground-states
These people are voting for trump. 100% at least in the south. Every SINGLE person I know that didn’t follow politics… That’s going through it…. They’re all voting for trump. ? Life wasn’t as hard in 2018. Life’s hard now. That’s it. Nothing else matters
Well, a lot has happened since 2018, like a pandemic, but the unegaged voter will vote on that even if they don't know what's causing it
My point exactly. Trump gives them hope through manufactured fear. What’s the DNC doing? It feels like the gold paints melting off a garbage bag and they’re just hoping people don’t notice.
It does. Not. Matter. A brand new face will not fare better. If they're going to swap somebody in then it needs to be somebody everyone knows. Especially when it's this late in the game.
> It does. Not. Matter. I couldn’t disagree more. What if the chances for Biden to lose were 60%? 70%? 80%? Would it matter then? Yes. It would. Id rather gamble on an unknown than go with a very likely loss.
not if the new person's chance to lose was 90%
Yeah. Biden may well lose but I don't see a realistic way to have a candidate whose chance to lose is less. In abstract a lot of people want it to be someone different. As soon as you try to get them to agree on who the someone different is and how that works to get them in place that preserves fundraising, doesn't have ballot problems, doesn't look like Democrat insiders threw out the results of a primary that lots of people voted in and anointed someone else, etc. it gets messy fast and doesn't look like such a sure thing.
But they aren’t so it doesn’t.
Both Nate Silver and the Economist's election models are showing Biden's odds to lose at over 70% The only model not showing that is 538, which is using a new model built by a guy who gave Biden an 80% chance to win Florida last cycle
> It does. Not. Matter. Then there’s no harm in trying.
Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed? It absolutely matters. England and France just held snap elections with campaigns only a few weeks long. There is zero impediment to an abbreviated campaign schedule. Back in the day, campaigns didn’t really start till Labor Day. We’ve got plenty of time.
>Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed? So... Kamala Harris? Which is exactly who we'll get if the worst comes to pass. She's not terribly charismatic. Won't win a popularity contest. But she's smart, competent, has democratic values. If Biden gets elected and then keels over, I'm okay with the country being in her hands. I'm NOT okay with the country being in Trump's or his designated toady's hands. Trump's VP pick will have only his obsequiousness to recommend him. Pass.
For one Biden has raised hundreds of millions of campaign cash that could not be transferred to a new candidate. He has fundraising connections that would be difficult for a new candidate to build up to the same level in a timely matter if he dropped out.
The $250M is a bummer if the replacement isn’t Kamala. But I have zero doubt that Biden would leverage his fundraising connections on behalf of the new candidate. I don’t think it would take long for all these mega donors to open their pocketbooks again.
Almost half of Biden's money comes from [small donors](https://www.opensecrets.org/2024-presidential-race/small-donors). There's no "connections" to leverage to make those people suddenly switch.
Do you have any American examples or are you basing your thoughts on countries and systems that are not this one?
American examples of what, shorter campaign seasons? Absolutely. The way we do it now is a modern trend. Ike remained NATO commander until June of 1952. Truman wasn’t going to be nominee until his speech at the convention… in July. https://theconversation.com/how-did-the-us-presidential-campaign-get-to-be-so-long-119571 We are all humans capable of learning about our political candidates and making a decision about it in a short amount of time. And in all of my political news consumption, invariably, pundits discuss the late breaking voters that didn’t make up their mind until the week of the election, every election, because people aren’t usually paying attention this whole time anyway. For them, it’d make no difference if we started in July or September.
No man. Someone running in 3 months against someone who has been running for a year and a half.
Because it’s literally a year too late to organize a campaign. In Europe, all candidates ran on the same timeline. Trump has been running for over a year at this point.
> Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed? It absolutely matters. The problem is in abstract this unnamed person might do better but as soon as you settle on a specific person you find problems as to why that wouldn't necessarily be the case.
>Why would a younger, energetic, and more articulate democrat not fare better than someone half the country thinks is pretty much on their deathbed? They would. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.
The average person still prefers Biden over trump. They're both old guys, but one is old and the other is old AND a convicted felon who has repeatedly shown himself to be entirely without honor. The average person thinks an old guy who has fought to stop obvious scams like Ticketmaster and other hidden fees, enacted the biggest effort to fight climate change in American history, and guided America to the best pandemic economic recovery of any nation on Earth is better than an old guy who put tax money in his own pocket, used the powers of government like they were meant to serve him personally and not the people, and actively committed crimes to worsen the corruption of government. The difference is stark.
I really want this to be true. But are there evidences of this? Trump polls still being high.
Trump has a hard limit at about 46-47%. Biden is getting lower than that, but there are about 10% of undecided voters. Saying Biden is irrevocably behind isn't accurate. Things aren't going to be understood until you can figure out how these voters will go.
Then Why does Trump have a higher approval rating than Biden?
This unfortunately just isn’t true. Polls consistently now show Biden outside the margin of error now. Someone like Josh would quickly win people over in a media frenzy
Problem is that this is a chicken-egg problem because there isn't one person who just gets to "choose" the nominee/*. So in order to be chosen, the person has to be overwhelmingly supported by the party. This seems unrealistic. More likely there would have to be a ton of party infighting about who should be chosen and it's unlikely to stay out of the public eye. * I guess technically biden could try to pick a president by choosing them as vp and then stepping down, but I think he's unlikely to do that unless he just kept Harris. But it's hard to call that scenario a "challenger" to biden.
>Once a nominee is chosen they will be a house hold name faster than that Hawk-tuh girl. I'm not sure it's her *name* that's well-known. Kind of like people know "governor of Pennsylvania" is a thing but not the man's name.
The media is going to do everything they can to turn a new democratic candidate into the equivalent of Hillary undermining Bernie Sanders via 2016. That's the risk. If the party cannot unite behind the new candidate, they aren't above spite voting them. Is that worth the risk?
I’ve never heard of this person either but that last name would be a rough sell for dems. Especially uninformed dems who think this person might be related to Ben Shapiro.
I was going to say the same thing. I'm absolutely on the upper end of "keeping up with politics" in my bubble of friends and family and I don't think I know this guy. Maybe I've heard of him in passing, but going from one of the most known men in the world to someone niche would be a non-starter, no matter how desirable they might be as president.
That's because he isn't a representative he is the Governor of Pennsylvania.
I understand some people wants to replace Biden, but it seems like they cannot agree on a single candidate. I'd be more willing to entertain the idea of replacing Biden, if somebody actually stand up for the role. What's the point of speculating potential candidates when none of them actually signal they are up for it.
Biden could name his own replacement instead of daring someone to challenge him or "stand up".
A lot of the voices calling for Biden's replacement seem to be from the right. The more chaos you can sow in your enemy's camp, the better.
Actually it’s quite the opposite. The online right is generally agitating against him being replaced because they want to run against him.
Yeah, it’s not right wing agitation. A ton of ppl on the left don’t like the matchup considering what’s at stake
Or they are at least remaining silent. Don't interrupt your enemy in the midst of a mistake.
Correct. I reckon the Trump campaign was poised to announce a VP pick, but hit the pause button on that while this Dem fiasco dominates the news cycle. Sit back and watch dem v. dem + Biden v. media play out for another week or two.
This is BS. Krugman, Friedman, Carville, Ezra Klein are from the right? Are *you* from the right?
Fuck off, the only person who likes Joe Biden more than me is named Jill and I absolutely think he should step down. The right is hoping to Christ he stays in because it will be a bloodbath.
It's darkly amusing to watch from Britain. So many Democrats getting into a car being driven by a man who just nodded off on his last journey. But don't change the driver - it's his car!
He didn't nod off on his last journey. He's "driving the car" at this exact moment and we're doing fine
The people who now want out of that car spent four+ years telling their political adversaries to shut up whenever they suggested taking grandpa's license from him.
You think the right wants Biden replaced? Maybe the never trumpers
And the rest of the voices are people who were admittedly undecided, unmotivated, or ill informed. The polls came back and the numbers barely moved.
The polls came back and biden is doing worse: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/2024/national/ He also now has the lowest approval rating of his entire presidency: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/biden-approval-rating/ That matters in a race that has been evenly matched the whole time. The polls don't have to move much to ensure biden losses the election because it's that close of an election.
He’s doing worse than trump but the difference before and after is only a few points. He was up briefly by 0.5%, now he’s down by a bit over 2% Their core voters have not changed their minds significantly. We are still fighting for the unmotivated/undecided. Edit/added The graph titled “Who’s ahead in the national polls?” is a 4 month time frame. The difference between the two candidates have never been more than 2-3 points. It’s still less than 3 points. There is no significant change. Second link “how (un)popular is Biden?” shows a 7 month time frame. Narrow that down to just before and after the debate and the line doesn’t change significantly. According to their own methodology the core groups are not swayed. “Right now, that interval shows that Biden's support could be anywhere between 39.4 and 42.2 percent, while Trump’s range is from 40.3 to 42.8 percent.”
None of this counters my point that 1) he is down and 2) it only takes a tiny difference to guarantee a loss in such a close race.
This whole thing is greatly complicated by the timing of the convention (19 - 22 August) being two weeks AFTER the deadline (7 August) to appear on the general election ballot in Ohio. A similar situation exists with Alabama, Montana, and South Dakota. It is an absolute certainty that efforts can be made to make last minute exceptions if Biden is replaced, but it's also an absolute certainty that those exceptions would be subject to significant litigation. The laws of those states are pretty clear on this, so convincing a judge the Democrats should be given a special exception is not an open and shut case..... and anyone trying to make that case would have to explain why Democrats scheduled their convention, with full knowledge of what the laws were, in late August. The Republican convention was time a month earlier, in mid July, precisely to meet the state requirements & deadlines for candidate nomination. So it isn't anywhere near certain that Biden's replacement would even appear on the ballot in all 50 states. Good luck winning 270 electoral college votes if you don't even make the ballot in one or more states that *aren't* safely Republican *or* winner take all states.
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I feel insane about this! Not even the NY Times is pointing this out in articles I've seen! Plus, the donations that went to the Biden/Harris campaign aren't free-for-all nominee funds, they can only be used by Biden or Harris.
On the second part, I was reading the FEC rules and it looks like they could donate all their funds to the DNC if they suspended their campaign. The DNC has a lot of flexibility on how it distributes those funds, including to a potential new presidential candidate's campaign.
Biden challenging "the elites" to run against him *at the convention* is hilarious. He's **the incumbent president of the United States** and ran unopposed with the backing of his party leadership. This is like challenging someone to beat you in a marathon but you get to start at the 41 kilometer mark
Also a guy who spent 36 years in the senate 8 yrs as vp and 4 yrs as president isn't an elite? Give me a fucking break.
If you take his own word for it he's not since he's not as rich as other similarly pedigreed politicians
Yeah that's politician bullshittery. You aren't in federal office for almost 50 years without being an elite insider.
Well if he tells the delegates to vote their conscience, it's more like starting at the 21km mark.
The delegates aren't going to break from him in any meaningful number. Let's be serious
I agree. Either a large group will demand he steps down or almost no one will. Nobody wants to Liz Cheney themselves.
No. Or, they can try, but they won't for the same reason they didn't run against him in the primary: they would get absolutely slaughtered in the vote, even if Biden released his delegates Go look and see who won the delegate spots in your primary. They're going to be local office holders or members of your county's dem organization. So, hardly the elite, but not just random people either There is no credible candidate that is going to convince those people to knife the sitting President, no matter how many concerns they might have
i didnt realize the Democrat president of the USA wasnt an elite in his own party!
If I am correct the elected delegates are bound on the first ballot to vote for the candidate they were selected to represent. It’s possible to free them to ‘vote their conscience’ on the first ballot via rule change but A. It’s unlikely unless the President calls for it and B. They’re Biden delegates, the chances enough of them change their mind to make it actually competitive is somewhere between zero and one. Thus to answer your question it would be political suicide and a guaranteed loss to challenge Biden at the moment.
Again, the whole thing is "Who?" While there are concerns about Biden's age and (possible) cognitive problems, the flip side is *no one else* in the Democrat party has been seen as a viable alternative. The primaries showed Biden dominating all challengers. Even the most likely scenario of Kamala Harris being an option has been met with raised eyebrows. Whoever would challenge Biden at convention would have to 1) convince the party establishment that they're the better alternative, and 2) show they had the capability to beat Trump. And it isn't going to be some unknown House rep that barely registers on anyone's radar.
>the flip side is *no one else* in the Democrat party has been seen as a viable alternative. The primaries showed Biden dominating all challengers. Even the most likely scenario of Kamala Harris being an option has been met with raised eyebrows. You do realise that is all political theatre right?? Biden is far from the best leader/politician the US has to offer at the moment, he's not even the best politician in his administration. Its all a just a Wizard of Oz style narrative that has been created to help Bidens re-election. Now they just need to spin a new one for this new guy. Because while politicians spend most of their time wheeling and dealing playing each other, they also spend a lot of energy playing us.
Biden has a decades-long track record. That’s not theater.
Past performance is not an indicator of future performance when.. THE PRESIDENT HAS AGE RELATED COGNITIVE DECLINE.
If we can not decide who should replace him we should have had this discussion 6 months ago and had an actual competitive primary. If Dems lose in November this is on Joe Biden's unwillingness to step down and be a one term President. The fact that the "elites" are now realizing this shows how out of the loop they really are.
People should listen to the Morning Joe interview referenced by OP: [https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-i-am-not-going-anywhere-biden-confirms-he-s-staying-in-2024-race-214393925734](https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-i-am-not-going-anywhere-biden-confirms-he-s-staying-in-2024-race-214393925734) There are definitely moments where it feels like we have the old fiery Joe Biden back. Then there are moments where he starts stumbling, loses his train of thought, and can't finish the sentence. God, this is so frustrating. We can't wait until the Convention. Either he needs to definitely show he is capable right now or we need a replacement right now. The election is less than 4 months away.
He's only going to get worse, not better. That's why this sucks so much. He's clearly lost a step or twenty in the last year and we have no idea how many more he'll lose from now until November. It's utterly insane that we're going to hitch our wagon to him.
Is this the one where he’s on the phone?
Who the Fuck is Josh Shapiro? The fact that I had ask should answer your question.
If his campaign and the WH don't pull their collective heads out of their asses and start an actual effective campaign, his poll numbers will be so bad - they'll have no choice but to challenge him. It's bad enough he doesn't believe his approval ratings or the battleground state polls. Or the forecast models that show he has to win the popular vote by +2 to have a 66% chance to win the EC. They have to actually start campaigning and taking this seriously. That far more than his age and debate performance is what has driven the rebellion over the past 2 weeks. Why does it take a week to get a 20 minute interview done and then you record it in the afternoon instead of doing it live? He's the president. Surely, the network will accommodate his schedule. Or did they? That's the problem. Why did it take a week to get the WH doctor to kill the Parkinson story? That letter could have been released a week ago. Why are you sending scripted questions for interviews? Why hasn't there been a live townhall with questions from the audience held in prime time? The campaign is it's own worst enemy and they can't figure out why the story isn't going away and why he's losing, yet they aren't running the campaign a typical candidate would. Where are the ads? Why aren't you in 5 different battleground states a day? Why aren't you out there every day stumping with the party favorites? Where is the fuckin urgency? Yeah if things don't change, the party will have to step in because he'll continue to slip. It's not about his age, it's about his inability to run an effective campaign that can win.
> Why aren't you in 5 different battleground states a day? Why aren't you out there every day stumping with the party favorites? I for one actually like the president doing president things like helping policy and managing global crisis as they come. Agree with the rest of the points.
Due to the US's unusually long campaigning season, sitting president around re-election time do indeed need to be actively campaigning. It's part of the job duties. Joe hardly does that. Most likely because he is 81 years old and simply does not have the energy.
Obama, Clinton, both Bushes, and Reagan all had very rigorous campaigns despite being president.
Block of wood could be more active and public facing than current Biden. Still don't want him going to the other extreme with Trump who spent the vast majority of time out of the office and getting jack done. Especially with the current conflicts, a middle ground is better to balance both needs.
No. A contested election won’t work. The most viable candidates won’t participate.
I guess the democrats have the history book issue that the republicans have, except the dems only have to look at 1968 instead of the 1930’s.
No thanks. People have such wild political fantasies as if real life is like some kind of TV drama. It's not. If (insert person here) wanted to challenge Biden for the Democratic nomination, they should have beat him in the primary. But they didn't.
In my primary you could choose Biden or no one if you’re a Dem, Trump or no one if you’re a Rep, only “uncommitted” if you’re a green, and the libertarians didn’t even have a primary.
The primary was rigged. Biden refused debates. Some states didn't hold a primary. The campaign used their influence with liberal media institutions to limit access of alternative candidates. Democratic leadership threatened potential candidates and punished actual candidates. The 2024 Democratic Primary was the sort of election that Mubarak or Saddam Hussein regularly won. We don't consider those valid for good reason. Now you can argue that wasn't so bad because it was the primary, Biden was the incumbent and there wasn't widespread dissent. But then of course there appears to have been organized fraud regarding his mental condition. And yes the analogy is fine. What Biden is doing now by trying to organize yet another fake election at the convention using a fake primary as a justification is precisely what dictators do. He just hasn't corrupted the general election yet. Jan 6th is now off the table as a difference between the candidates.
Also, his point about running against 3 other people in the primaries was disingenuous. Of those 3 candidates, 2 of them dropped out during the primaries, and they weren't even on all states' ballots. Dean Phillips (the only one of them to have ever held elected office) dropped out March 6. Jason Palmer (a venture capitalist with no prior political experience) dropped out May 15. Marianne Williamson (a perennial nutcase and founder of her own religion, look her up) dropped out after the primaries.
Yes. He chased off legitimate candidates. Phillips was punished incidentally.
Nobody wants this to be their one shot at a presidency, not realising that if Trump gets in it could be their *last* chance at a presidency.
what they need is something like American Idol... open audition for everyone, and let the Democrats choose the best man or woman
Well that seem like the appropriate way to resolve it, that is the mechanism. If they try and fail that's a message.
They can’t, the delegates are legally bound to him so it’s all bluster.
There is nothing that says they are 'legally bound to him'. https://apnews.com/article/replacing-biden-nomination-options-dnc-democratic-convention-d23c02047b6a2c991737915972a2fa4c >In 2024, Biden swept all but one primary or caucus and the vast majority of delegates at stake in those contests. Those delegates are considered to be “pledged” to Biden, which means they were selected to fill delegate slots that Biden won as a result of his vote performances in various primaries and caucuses. However, under party rules, that pledge is more of a strong expectation rather than an iron-clad, legal obligation.
Wow, that’s interesting. I swear I read the sentence “this isn’t the sixties and we can’t just duke it out on the convention floor, those delegates are legally bound to Joe Biden” somewhere in the past week. Guess it was incorrect, or maybe I’ve misunderstood the context.
I am kind of convinced that it's something being pushed by the DNC to make people think it's useless to even try and get Biden to step aside. I have no proof of this of course but the reason I looked it up is because I heard the same as you, as in 'don't even bother, they HAVE to back him'.
So I guess the more important question is if Biden refuses to step down, and these delegates unite to put the good of the country over an 81yr olds ego, nominating someone of sound mind. Are these 4EVA Biden voters going tank the election?
Give it up. Biden didn't suddenly turn old last week because of his debate performance and he's not going anywhere despite the best efforts of the trolls. But sure, keep on doing the MAGA's work for them and keep this whole thing alive. I swear the dichotomy that is American Presidential politics now is just plain stupid. Trump can bumble and stumble, promote fascism, and lie his ass off all day every day but the news, and apparently several folks who are either trolls or disillusioned liberals, seem dead set on helping the white nationalists win with this stupid "Biden's too old" bullshit.
Did I hallucinate the Democratic primaries this year? You know, the whole voice of the people thing? If these people were up to challenging Biden, they should have stepped up to the plate when the game was on, over a year ago. It's not a torch to be passed. Ask voters if they even know who Josh Shapiro is.
I just did, and they do.
Joe's ego is annoying me. He needs to be selfless in this decision and he needs to be realistic about his polling and popularity numbers instead of denying them. If he's showing us hard data where he looks like the best candidate to beat the anti-Christ himself, then convince us because that's what should matter here. Who can beat the anti-Christ in November should be the only thing that matters.
With american voters, familiarity beats policy. Fame is important. I hate to say it but that's how it works here. Now in this case, Trump's abortion policy has become tied to him like an anchor, so that won't help him. His fame won't overcome it. But with the dems, right now everyone knows Biden. Many doubt him, but everyone knows him. The only person who has a chance to usurp Biden right now and beat Trump is someone who may be even more famous than him. Michelle Obama. But I seriously doubt she wants the job. She's seen what it does to people up close. AOC might work, but she isn't ready yet. But she also has a lot of time on her side. She's only 34. She can wait till both Biden and Trump are long dead before she even puts her hat in the ring.
The DNC - and various characters on this sub - should probably be aware that if they do things like forcing an unpopular/incapable/senile nominee on the country again, people won't fucking like it. I said at the time, there should be a proper Primary. Biden should at least make an appearance, any challenger should make their case to his face and he should respond. People on this and similar subs melted down over this suggestion. Well, we all know how that worked out. Fear of Trump has made the Dems stupid(er). They claim not to want a King and then treat Biden like one. Out of fear of Trump. Pathetic.
There was already a chance for them to challenge him and they either didn’t try or lost. He’s the nominee
This is getting more infuriating by the day. How can he and the DNC be so blind and arrogant ?
The way that half these comments are on his side too is driving me insane… How can you believe that democracy will literally be over if Trump wins then rally this hard behind the candidate who we all know for an absolute fact will lose to Trump. At this point I hate the DNC and these complacent liberals even more than republicans for so flagrantly and willingly handing power to them
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Absolutely preposterous for this man to try and portray himself as anything other than “the elite”. This election cycle is wild.
Dude has been a Senator since the Cretaceous Period, Vice-President, and now President. It doesn't get more elite than that.
There's also this other guy born with a silver spoon in his mouth, who went to prep school and wharton and rails against the elites.