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Call me a casual or bias or wtv but who in the hell is that other team, since idk who they are
https://preview.redd.it/51217jo7j7ad1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62eda802afed91a0e824bf5bd2000706a6e10f1e
Edit: OP yo account is actually disguting
Yeah, a single attack which required incredible setup. If Goku goes FTL, what can Joker do? If the Z fighters can just casually destroy earth, what is Joker supposed to do in the middle of the empty void of space?
These are spite matches
Joker can move in places where time does not pass, in addition to having Personas that reflect different types of damage, I highly doubt that staying in space is a problem
"Move in places where time does not pass"? Where? The Velvet Room? That's not a power he has, it's a characteristic of the velvet room.
And damage immunity does not mean he can breathe in space. Or act in space.
considering that they can move into the metaverse if the fight takes place IRL (and the metaverse is not a physical space but a conceptual space so goku wouldnt be able to blast it out.) and how out of character it would be for goku to literally destroy the planet and kill his entire team.
blowing up a planet isn't much of an issue since the phantom thieves have more than enough time to act accordingly as breathable does not literally dissapear the moment a planet is blown up and due to outright having more than enough durability to tank it and prevent it unless goku was doing a frieza.
that's also not a wincon for goku because he can't go back to earth either if he does that so at best it's a stalemate with mutual BFR. in a team fight, it's a loss on the Z fighters/ team universe 7 since the phantom thieves have more overall members. and are just as fast if not faster than goku depending on scalings.
and even if the metaverse is gone, the velvet room is still an option they can just go to if that is not an option. otherwise joker can just face tank it.
The point is that ignoring the fact that joker can tank the beam, and out of character is is for goku to literally do that. the phantom thieves have ways to survive a planet blowing up by moving out of the location similar to goku, or just use messiah to grant breathable air due to messiah being a hax based persona, or even better because the phantom thieves were granted a small layer oh yahwehs reality warping and access to the velvet room they can just give themselves an air pocket to breathe in space.
It is not something Goku would do but it is something he could do. It literally takes them a flick of the finger as shown by Frieza, and even if everyone else dies then Team DB won purely by having the last remaining member.
Now, i have no clue how you can scale the PTs to be FTL in any capacity, but assuming they are and assuming they are able to tank the attack, they can't survive the void of space.
Like even if they still have air for a bit, they will just die eventually.
Not really, by freeing himself from his chains, even with the owners of that dimension altering it so that he does not move, he can continue fighting, and not only Joker, the other Phanom Thieves too, not to mention that they are immune to reality alteration. In any case, Joker has Messiah, the Persona of miracles, who is capable of defeating concepts
What? Messiah is never stated or shown to be able to do that, not even in its description or in its movie appearance. Where did you get that wacky idea from?
And even assuming that Joker is immune to reality alteration, it doesn't mean he can move instantly /in stopped time because he can move in the velvet room. The Velvet Room is another dimension, and while Yaldabaoth did gain control over it he did not have uncontested control of it because it is also a reflection of the protagonists' journeys and is tied to them.
Being in the velvet room does not grant you the ability to be FTL
The conditions of the fight allow it, but i still don't know how that helps because of all the "ultimate" personas it doesn't even serve the same purpose as Satanael and Izanagi no okami.
Messiah is manually fused after being unlocked, and you can end the game without it. The other two appear in a crucial story moment and bring a really important feat with their appearance. I don't know where he got the idea that it can kill concepts however.
I mean he didn't literally alter reality easily, yhwach (not the one from bleach) had to grow himself to do so, and it was less actually altering reality and more overriding reality so it's less literal reality manipulation and more manipulating a layer similar to how a palace king can change the structure of their own palace.
but that is a feat that is much lower than say makoto using the universe arcana to seal nyx. or narukami's myriath truth to defeat izanami because they were affecting actual real world and not a pseudo metaverse creeping into the real world.
The god I'm talking about (I won't name names to try not to spoil too much), took control of the Velvet Room and deformed it at will, a feat that no character in the franchise had done so far, and then we have Maruki that there is no need to clarify much about that
it also has more details for palaces and better boss fights. for example madarame's basegame boss fight sucked ass, shido has more secret entrances. there's an extended segment for the 3rd, and 4th boss fight.
basically if you wanna play P5, play royal. it's an upgrade in every way except royal is less cheesable than basegame.
games that took place before royal though (I dont mean in universe chronology I meant in terms of development period) doesnt take into account the cast so if you ask "hey why isn't this character appearing in strikers" don't think too hard about it.
In Royal, 3 new confidants are added (characters with whom you can go on outings to learn more about their lives and provide benefits to the combats), if you complete these three confidants a new story arc is unlocked that is simply cinema
The Phantom Thieves of Persona 5 Royal, their power lies in invoking their Personas, incarnations of the soul that show their true being, I highly recommend playing Persona 5 Royal, it is an experience that you will never forget
Surprisingly, this is a stomp match in both directions. Before you all downvote me to oblivion let me explain.
Dragon Ball stomping is obvious. If they encounter each other in the real world, Team Persona are typical teenagers, one with a gun (Akechi), but that would not change anything against Team Dragon Ball in the real world.
If the two groups encountered each other in person (i.e., the real-world versions of both teams) in the Meta-verse/Meta-verse-like space, then Joker would likely be the only one of Team Persona that can put up a good fight thanks to being able to reflect or null everything besides almighty, but eventually lose unless some weird Meta-verse shenanigans affect either side as all beings in the Meta-verse are affected by how they are perceived and like it or not most if not all of the abilities from Dragon ball would be perceived as physical attacks or Psi attacks and from Team Persona and from an average person's point of view a gun would hurt and hit a cosplayer/strangely dressed individual the members of Team Dragon Ball. So ultimately, the battle of their real selves in the Meta-verse or a place like the Meta-verse would depend on what is happening there as Team Persona's power system works of a perception system, so if the enemy perceives them as a threat, they become a threat, but the opposite is also true to a degree.
Team Persona stomping is more farfetched, but they are technically canon in the Shin Megami Tensei universe, meaning the Personas canonically have equivalent power and scaling to their real-world mythological counterparts under the proper circumstances (being in the Meta-verse in this case). The most important aspect of their stomping, however, isn't the strength or scaling of their personas but instead is the Meta-verse, as even with verse equalization, the Physical and Spiritual world (where Dragon Ball Characters usually function) and the Meta-verse (the mental world where the Persona Group functions and has power) could be separate things meaning they function under very different rules. This means that the Persona team might be able to use their usual tactics of infiltrating the Palaces/Jails/Mementos of their enemy and change their hearts from there or just off the mental version of each (not that this would be easy, just a lot easier than fighting them head-on especially when some of them have figures that severely outclass the Dragon Ball characters, like Sun Wu Kong, Satanael, Izanami-No-Okami, etc.), as Palaces are not exclusive to horrible people (ex., Oracle's Palace) but instead are products of an intense self-conception or mental state and mental versions are just a part of living.
You're also forgetting that if DBZ or a power scaled equivalent exists in the Persona universe, then it's 100% possible that Joker could fuse Goku(or his equivalent) as a persona.
The 5th installment which is where this team comes from, u can basically think of it as they invade a physical representation of the mind of someone and if they beat the final boss (which is the mental embodiment of that person) then they can force the final boss "persona" to change their heart. For example: if they do this to frieza and succeed, then itd result in frieza having a change of heart and not liking fighting anymore and just give up. Also they could just kill the person in this dream world, killing them in the dream world results in real death via some freaky stroke-type brain melting shit.
Persona scaling is messy, if you scale them with SMT they're outerversal and stomp. If you only scale using the persona games and cut all ties with SMT then they're probably planetary.
Even at the *lowest* possible estimation (which is a ridiculous lowball), we see Joker throwing out quasars with Cosmic Flare and the mid-game Phantom Thieves survive the Big Bang Challenge which at least destroys an entire nebula on-screen.
I’m also going out of my way to ignore pretty much everything relating to Mementos, the Collective Unconscious, and basically every bit of lore possible from the Persona/SMT franchise.
https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Big_Bang_Challenge
Yes. Given the name and the entire concept of Cognition it should be universal, but this is intentionally lowballing it.
I mean most things in the metaverse are not literal. They are just perceived that way. The best example is early on when Morgana explains that even a prop gun can act as a real one if the target believes it to be real. It’s also why joker and the p5 gang can’t use their powers in the real world. Every battle in P5 is more of a psychic battle than a physical one. If the DB crew tried to take on the P5 crew in the real world it would just be a bunch of normal teenagers getting their shit stomped in. If it was in the metaverse it would highly depend on how the two teams viewed each other and how they view themselves.
The Phantom Thieves can go and pull people into the Metaverse whenever they want. If they get killed in the real world, they’ll just end up at the Velvet Room (seen when Yaldabaoth erases them from Cognition) where they can walk right out the front door.
It’s also assumed for these debates that the characters are able to use their powers in the first place for the fight.
It's really hard to judge, since everything in P5 is more metaphysical. They have 0 strength in the real world, only in the cognitive realm. If it's a fight only in cognitive, persona has a chance. If it's a merged cognitive and real world like the ending of 5, then they get sweeped since DB still has full strength
Persona cause of my GOAT makoto yuki coming in to save the day (I will wank my goats every chance I get)
https://preview.redd.it/yndbn274h8ad1.png?width=325&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef024aecc6a6840bbf39a9aae20d8e2c14434679
My point it that they aren't random shadows. You don't think the cognition of a Saiyan or alien would be the same as a human? If so you are being incredibly dishonest.
There not shadows at all they don’t have a place or a boss shadow so it would just be mementos I don’t think they have issues that would call for a palace except vegeta who’s would be pride
https://preview.redd.it/2ks29tpl49ad1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48b57f56063c3150b97441cd0c99fe9ddcc3eda8
Last time I checked they aren’t Gokuversal.
Honestly probably gets eales out towards the z fighters there's multiple characters on their that can square up against God's and 2 of them are gods 2 of them are confirmed infinitely powerful and those 2 infinitely powerful can fuse to become a being that accidentally destroyed the universe before recreating it even the weakest member of the team is able to square up with atleast half of the thieves
sealing jar mogs the group, as it dosent actually attack them so repel dosent work it’s much more like a status move, it’s hard and really stupid to scale persona characters since they have a really complicated and dumb scaling
calm down dude
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Insert the Concentrate + Myriad of Truths meme because I cant be fucked grabbing it myself.
Serious answer: DBS overall scales higher. I know there can be arguments for Persona (and if we really wank it, we can compare it to SMT but realistically everyone from Persona is fodder compared to the rest of the SMT cosmology) but I'd give it to the ToP crew more times then the phantom thieves.
Considering Goku literally broke a time altering ability by just powering up more, good luck making any argument about the idea of space time altering effects beat them, at this point it's just whether or not we say Goku breaks hax like he always has with just being strong, or if you take that away. Not to mention, Goku has a Zeno button, press and just let the super ultra god erase existence itself since he doesn't follow the same rules that the persona gods follow
Idk a lot about persona but I asked a friend and the phantom thieves probably win he told be they are like hyper/outerversal+ immeasurable speeds but idk
It really depends on what you deem as fair to scale for the PTs. If you scale them with reference to SMT as a whole they unironically neg the verse, but if you scale them with only the Persona games in mind they lose hard. Not only that but their powers only really do anything in specific circumstances (the metaverse) which makes them infuriating to scale. Now throw an actual SMT protagonist like Demi-Fiend and he’ll solo the verse.
They’ll never see it coming
Seriously though. The Phantom Thieves don’t even fight within the space of reality. The Z Fighters literally won’t see it coming.
Joker fought a god conjured from society’s desires, killed said god and saved humanity, has goku killed a god? No he hasn’t, not to mention that said god is like a natural force, people’s twisted desires are a part of the world.
True, I honestly think this post is more complex because i feel these characters universes don’t crossover well, for instance we don’t know if goku would be immune to the dark hour, how would joker get damaged if he decides to use a persona with null elements and physical damage, how would myriad of truths work, and would megidolan deal any damage to Goku. There’s so many factors that make it hard to apply to a fight scenario.
Presuming it takes place in the Metaverse (which, since you're using the Phantom Thieves, I'm comfortable in assuming), the P5 team should very easily take it.
Joker can use Metatron. [Metatron is described here as being equal to Shaddai](https://imgur.com/a/metatron-5ynjrAW), meaning he's just another avatar of YHVH. That means he's comparable to Chokma, the embodiment of the realm beyond dimensions [described here](https://imgur.com/a/megaten-scanslave-05-oIzYrYV).
The cosmology of the persona verse is created by archetypes in the collective unconscious which should lead to infinite potentials in the verse.
This is like easy outer right?
https://preview.redd.it/f065rlkbl8ad1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47ac230db8b75033737bbbdc0c7ece18c702c3bf
Playing the Devil’s Advocate and ignoring all of the evidence that the Phantom Thieves are stronger, let’s assume the Dragon Ball team is stronger. Even with that, they have no way around the PT’s abilities and resistances. They can reflect physical damage, one person can warp reality to become immune to damage with the Omnipotent Orb, the Break spells can negate the damage resistances the DB team has, can revive team members with Samarecarem, they can stack buffs as much as they want when they aren’t limited by gameplay mechanics, and they can will themselves back to existence from conceptual erasure. Even if they die and you want to ignore Samarecarem, they can just come back anyway. BFR won’t work since they can go into the Velvet Room and walk back to the fight.
This is still massively lowballing the Persona franchise and ignoring 90% of the actual lore. This is the equivalent of saying Goku is wall level because Broly hurt him by dragging his head through the ice.
I’m intentionally lowballing the Persona franchise to make a point. I didn’t even touch on the Thieves Den (literally called “My Palace” in Japanese) and the Cognitive versions of every antagonist, including Adam Kadmon and Yaldabaoth.
Goku solos memes aside, the question is more like who is the weakest SMT character who can defeat the entirety of dragon ball. Smt scaling is infamously ridiculous, though kinda more lore based.
Makarakarn or Tetrakarn would solve that by sending it back at full power to Team Dragon Ball. I don't know if it would count as a Magic or Physical attack but one will send it back.
"Megidolaon deals Almighty damage to all enemies.
As it is Almighty, it cannot be resisted or blocked/repelled/drained, and [Makarakarn](https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Makarakarn) has no effect on it despite the attack being a Magic skill."
according to the SMT wiki
The Z Fighters are casual planet busters. Unless we start specifically wanking game mechanics like repel skills, there is not much they can do honestly.
Also, how are you supposed to interpret personas like Messiah and Izanami no okami?
And even with the highest scalings, the PTs just get speedblitzed. If not speedblitzed, the Z fighters can just destroy earth and have them die from lack of oxygen (even if realistically they would never do something like that)
well it does depend on how high you scale them, lowball scalings dragonball stomps, midrange scalings dragonball stomps.
really highball scaling then it's difficult but persona series does edge out a win due to complete immunity outside of allmighty with joker, and having the AP to damage DB characters.
Ignoring how out of character that is for goku.
outside of the fact that leaving the battlefield is BFR so goku loses with that presumption, the phantom thieves can either bank on mona to just get them out, use the metaverse to go to a safe location, or go to the velvet room if the fight takes place in the metaverse already.
the other issue is that joker can just as easily face tank the kamehameha with his immunities or counter the kamehameha with the fact that their AP is about the same.
EDIT: This is assuming you are talking about wanked phantom thieves.
If they have access to all items the phantom thieves stomp and even without it joker takes the dub because of his hacks and abilities since they have no way of bypassing their null/reflect
All these people clutching at straws trying to compare small planet feats , GOKU SHOOK AN INFINITE PLANE BECAUSE HE POWERED UP , he did not attack he just charged his ki, and that was enough to shake INFINITY..
Bruh this fights not fair joker alone solos let alone the whole squad don't believe me look up his stats and or just play the game.( Dragon Ball Stan here by the way).
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Persona and Megami Tensei characters are Outerverse level, way beyond the power levels of the Dragon Ball characters! You can cope all you want, but Goku and the game ain’t winning this thing!😐🫤😑🫥
https://preview.redd.it/zrterxg9icad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ee626046b7e7aa1c3792900461c61f32b400af3
Very cannon statments put Soloku above fiction
https://preview.redd.it/s40ahmgajcad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8957a874b8103888658364fb239669b31976de8
Some more very real statements since you don't believe me
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Black frieza gonna recreate that old dance video advert whilst killing them
Roshi could probably take them all himself
To be fair the Persona Team did already defeat one pervy old dude.
Call me a casual or bias or wtv but who in the hell is that other team, since idk who they are https://preview.redd.it/51217jo7j7ad1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=62eda802afed91a0e824bf5bd2000706a6e10f1e Edit: OP yo account is actually disguting
The only time I agree to this wanking because Idk who tf is the other team and goku wins here anyways.
I will only say that Joker (the leader of the Phantom Thieves) with a single attack can kill gods that alter reality
Yeah, a single attack which required incredible setup. If Goku goes FTL, what can Joker do? If the Z fighters can just casually destroy earth, what is Joker supposed to do in the middle of the empty void of space? These are spite matches
Joker can move in places where time does not pass, in addition to having Personas that reflect different types of damage, I highly doubt that staying in space is a problem
"Move in places where time does not pass"? Where? The Velvet Room? That's not a power he has, it's a characteristic of the velvet room. And damage immunity does not mean he can breathe in space. Or act in space.
considering that they can move into the metaverse if the fight takes place IRL (and the metaverse is not a physical space but a conceptual space so goku wouldnt be able to blast it out.) and how out of character it would be for goku to literally destroy the planet and kill his entire team. blowing up a planet isn't much of an issue since the phantom thieves have more than enough time to act accordingly as breathable does not literally dissapear the moment a planet is blown up and due to outright having more than enough durability to tank it and prevent it unless goku was doing a frieza. that's also not a wincon for goku because he can't go back to earth either if he does that so at best it's a stalemate with mutual BFR. in a team fight, it's a loss on the Z fighters/ team universe 7 since the phantom thieves have more overall members. and are just as fast if not faster than goku depending on scalings.
The Metaverse is part of the collective unconscious, if there's no planet and no people, there's no Metaverse
and even if the metaverse is gone, the velvet room is still an option they can just go to if that is not an option. otherwise joker can just face tank it. The point is that ignoring the fact that joker can tank the beam, and out of character is is for goku to literally do that. the phantom thieves have ways to survive a planet blowing up by moving out of the location similar to goku, or just use messiah to grant breathable air due to messiah being a hax based persona, or even better because the phantom thieves were granted a small layer oh yahwehs reality warping and access to the velvet room they can just give themselves an air pocket to breathe in space.
DLC personas aren't canon Even if they were, Messiah doesn't have any feats Hell, Messiah isn't even the strongest P3 Persona, that's Orpheus Telos
It is not something Goku would do but it is something he could do. It literally takes them a flick of the finger as shown by Frieza, and even if everyone else dies then Team DB won purely by having the last remaining member. Now, i have no clue how you can scale the PTs to be FTL in any capacity, but assuming they are and assuming they are able to tank the attack, they can't survive the void of space. Like even if they still have air for a bit, they will just die eventually.
Not really, by freeing himself from his chains, even with the owners of that dimension altering it so that he does not move, he can continue fighting, and not only Joker, the other Phanom Thieves too, not to mention that they are immune to reality alteration. In any case, Joker has Messiah, the Persona of miracles, who is capable of defeating concepts
What? Messiah is never stated or shown to be able to do that, not even in its description or in its movie appearance. Where did you get that wacky idea from? And even assuming that Joker is immune to reality alteration, it doesn't mean he can move instantly /in stopped time because he can move in the velvet room. The Velvet Room is another dimension, and while Yaldabaoth did gain control over it he did not have uncontested control of it because it is also a reflection of the protagonists' journeys and is tied to them. Being in the velvet room does not grant you the ability to be FTL
DLC isn't canon
The conditions of the fight allow it, but i still don't know how that helps because of all the "ultimate" personas it doesn't even serve the same purpose as Satanael and Izanagi no okami. Messiah is manually fused after being unlocked, and you can end the game without it. The other two appear in a crucial story moment and bring a really important feat with their appearance. I don't know where he got the idea that it can kill concepts however.
time does, in fact, move in palaces. did you even play persona 5?
Altering reality is cool until Goku yells really really loud.
I mean he didn't literally alter reality easily, yhwach (not the one from bleach) had to grow himself to do so, and it was less actually altering reality and more overriding reality so it's less literal reality manipulation and more manipulating a layer similar to how a palace king can change the structure of their own palace. but that is a feat that is much lower than say makoto using the universe arcana to seal nyx. or narukami's myriath truth to defeat izanami because they were affecting actual real world and not a pseudo metaverse creeping into the real world.
The god I'm talking about (I won't name names to try not to spoil too much), took control of the Velvet Room and deformed it at will, a feat that no character in the franchise had done so far, and then we have Maruki that there is no need to clarify much about that
whats the difference between persona 5 and persona 5 royal
it also has more details for palaces and better boss fights. for example madarame's basegame boss fight sucked ass, shido has more secret entrances. there's an extended segment for the 3rd, and 4th boss fight. basically if you wanna play P5, play royal. it's an upgrade in every way except royal is less cheesable than basegame.
ok cool thanks
games that took place before royal though (I dont mean in universe chronology I meant in terms of development period) doesnt take into account the cast so if you ask "hey why isn't this character appearing in strikers" don't think too hard about it.
In Royal, 3 new confidants are added (characters with whom you can go on outings to learn more about their lives and provide benefits to the combats), if you complete these three confidants a new story arc is unlocked that is simply cinema
ok cool thanks
In other words, imaginary enemies
 Didn't this mf lose to a bat
Goku with a single attack can wipe out the creator of the 13 universes? As could most of the dbz crew
so you’re saying you made a spite match?
I checked his account. I am also disgusted.
The Phantom Thieves of Persona 5 Royal, their power lies in invoking their Personas, incarnations of the soul that show their true being, I highly recommend playing Persona 5 Royal, it is an experience that you will never forget
So someone being a furry gives them power? Checks out Goku goes ssj4 and solos
Closer to JoJo stands than furries.
...would gokus oozaru punch work then? Its not really standish but the imaging of it def reminds me of stands
I relish any excuse for a good ora ora
Oraoraora Kamekamekame Lol
Biased*
No
Yes
https://preview.redd.it/5fwjldcb58ad1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=82ca34c8ab92572247ec2f4c06a20977b192c562
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Surprisingly, this is a stomp match in both directions. Before you all downvote me to oblivion let me explain. Dragon Ball stomping is obvious. If they encounter each other in the real world, Team Persona are typical teenagers, one with a gun (Akechi), but that would not change anything against Team Dragon Ball in the real world. If the two groups encountered each other in person (i.e., the real-world versions of both teams) in the Meta-verse/Meta-verse-like space, then Joker would likely be the only one of Team Persona that can put up a good fight thanks to being able to reflect or null everything besides almighty, but eventually lose unless some weird Meta-verse shenanigans affect either side as all beings in the Meta-verse are affected by how they are perceived and like it or not most if not all of the abilities from Dragon ball would be perceived as physical attacks or Psi attacks and from Team Persona and from an average person's point of view a gun would hurt and hit a cosplayer/strangely dressed individual the members of Team Dragon Ball. So ultimately, the battle of their real selves in the Meta-verse or a place like the Meta-verse would depend on what is happening there as Team Persona's power system works of a perception system, so if the enemy perceives them as a threat, they become a threat, but the opposite is also true to a degree. Team Persona stomping is more farfetched, but they are technically canon in the Shin Megami Tensei universe, meaning the Personas canonically have equivalent power and scaling to their real-world mythological counterparts under the proper circumstances (being in the Meta-verse in this case). The most important aspect of their stomping, however, isn't the strength or scaling of their personas but instead is the Meta-verse, as even with verse equalization, the Physical and Spiritual world (where Dragon Ball Characters usually function) and the Meta-verse (the mental world where the Persona Group functions and has power) could be separate things meaning they function under very different rules. This means that the Persona team might be able to use their usual tactics of infiltrating the Palaces/Jails/Mementos of their enemy and change their hearts from there or just off the mental version of each (not that this would be easy, just a lot easier than fighting them head-on especially when some of them have figures that severely outclass the Dragon Ball characters, like Sun Wu Kong, Satanael, Izanami-No-Okami, etc.), as Palaces are not exclusive to horrible people (ex., Oracle's Palace) but instead are products of an intense self-conception or mental state and mental versions are just a part of living.
You're also forgetting that if DBZ or a power scaled equivalent exists in the Persona universe, then it's 100% possible that Joker could fuse Goku(or his equivalent) as a persona.
I can't tell if any of this makes sense but you get an upvote for effort (I've never played Personal)
The 5th installment which is where this team comes from, u can basically think of it as they invade a physical representation of the mind of someone and if they beat the final boss (which is the mental embodiment of that person) then they can force the final boss "persona" to change their heart. For example: if they do this to frieza and succeed, then itd result in frieza having a change of heart and not liking fighting anymore and just give up. Also they could just kill the person in this dream world, killing them in the dream world results in real death via some freaky stroke-type brain melting shit.
Yeah. Unfortunately, (I mean really unfortunate. I fucking love Goku.) the SMT demons have some insane feats.
Interesting
DB team Win and it's not even close.🤷♂️
Persona scaling is messy, if you scale them with SMT they're outerversal and stomp. If you only scale using the persona games and cut all ties with SMT then they're probably planetary.
https://preview.redd.it/dm20xs280bad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e257db661ceab159b45f66f0d3ee83a96ce1cb83
The phantom thieves slam in every possible category But they aren’t gokuversal so they die
https://preview.redd.it/2rvpzoj11bad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=610567c943801b818af50d29232ff7448178d212 Real
Another day another spite match
more important question https://preview.redd.it/3t12q6azu8ad1.jpeg?width=536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c502a0ec8ae2821488220952f3290bd10c6a0910
It's always funny when someone spite matches their own favourite characters because they wank them so hard
Honestly I’m not going to say who because I’ll piss off someone
Persona franchise, honestly really good jrpg games highly recommend checking them out all of them still hold up really well (and 3 just got a remake)
I know played all of persona 5 and 4 it’s just that I don’t want to piss someone off for showing my personal opinion
Ah, fair, lmao, have a good day (ngl I misread the comment, so I was recommending the series my fault)
OPs post history ☹️
It can’t be that ba- https://preview.redd.it/hedj2th3l9ad1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=be85006971ec4733d71c083cfae2aa933509b32c
average persona fan
No idea how he is not embarrassed over himself for liking that stuff and not even hiding it.
https://preview.redd.it/hs6y45kgfaad1.jpeg?width=739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=27046b3ba0c199e311b9c190bf40e44b66c97252
play a real shin megami tensei game
Are their stats evened out???? Are you fucking stuipd
https://preview.redd.it/pgyoezert9ad1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=271e6d1219ec1247b24b8371a7fd165a4b40d402
Goku solos as per usual
Persona verse is planetary at best so DB stomps
That is huge downplay, Persona does have arguments to be scaled up to multiversal, it may be the weakest SMT verse, but it's still a SMT verse.
So you're telling me soul hackers is stronger than persona? (Now I must play soul hackers)
Even at the *lowest* possible estimation (which is a ridiculous lowball), we see Joker throwing out quasars with Cosmic Flare and the mid-game Phantom Thieves survive the Big Bang Challenge which at least destroys an entire nebula on-screen. I’m also going out of my way to ignore pretty much everything relating to Mementos, the Collective Unconscious, and basically every bit of lore possible from the Persona/SMT franchise.
The big ass burguer destroyed a nebula on screen?
https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Big_Bang_Challenge Yes. Given the name and the entire concept of Cognition it should be universal, but this is intentionally lowballing it.
I mean most things in the metaverse are not literal. They are just perceived that way. The best example is early on when Morgana explains that even a prop gun can act as a real one if the target believes it to be real. It’s also why joker and the p5 gang can’t use their powers in the real world. Every battle in P5 is more of a psychic battle than a physical one. If the DB crew tried to take on the P5 crew in the real world it would just be a bunch of normal teenagers getting their shit stomped in. If it was in the metaverse it would highly depend on how the two teams viewed each other and how they view themselves.
The Phantom Thieves can go and pull people into the Metaverse whenever they want. If they get killed in the real world, they’ll just end up at the Velvet Room (seen when Yaldabaoth erases them from Cognition) where they can walk right out the front door. It’s also assumed for these debates that the characters are able to use their powers in the first place for the fight.
Black frieza: "cute"
It's really hard to judge, since everything in P5 is more metaphysical. They have 0 strength in the real world, only in the cognitive realm. If it's a fight only in cognitive, persona has a chance. If it's a merged cognitive and real world like the ending of 5, then they get sweeped since DB still has full strength
I think you fell too short with planetary level
Most of the cast tops at mountain but the top tiers might be planetary
Persona cause of my GOAT makoto yuki coming in to save the day (I will wank my goats every chance I get) https://preview.redd.it/yndbn274h8ad1.png?width=325&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ef024aecc6a6840bbf39a9aae20d8e2c14434679
Why you post a picture of a door?
https://preview.redd.it/iwse4fme0bad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=737c9fe7ea7a14dcf043ec4938e887070f628b89
Phantom thieves just have to land a instant kill move a couple times
https://preview.redd.it/55ftcafb0bad1.jpeg?width=618&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f7a9039b7f143ee0f1df6ad3f16074a381a3599d
Instakill moves don't work on bosses, which is what any person that has a palace is.
Nah they ain’t bosses
Yes they are. Every human character is a boss. You can only instakill random shadows.
Piccolo the androids and Freiza all human yes am I missing anyone oh yeah vegeta and goku sayains not human all there strongest aren’t human
My point it that they aren't random shadows. You don't think the cognition of a Saiyan or alien would be the same as a human? If so you are being incredibly dishonest.
There not shadows at all they don’t have a place or a boss shadow so it would just be mementos I don’t think they have issues that would call for a palace except vegeta who’s would be pride
Me
The Phantom Theives are Krillin victims
https://preview.redd.it/2ks29tpl49ad1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=48b57f56063c3150b97441cd0c99fe9ddcc3eda8 Last time I checked they aren’t Gokuversal.
Goku negs the opposing team source: who the fuck are they?
https://preview.redd.it/hf80c53w0bad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=03d70bc02f62d5ca1a2433c21a6cd0760ca19a00 Real
Honestly probably gets eales out towards the z fighters there's multiple characters on their that can square up against God's and 2 of them are gods 2 of them are confirmed infinitely powerful and those 2 infinitely powerful can fuse to become a being that accidentally destroyed the universe before recreating it even the weakest member of the team is able to square up with atleast half of the thieves
Is this a mental fight or physical fight?
sealing jar mogs the group, as it dosent actually attack them so repel dosent work it’s much more like a status move, it’s hard and really stupid to scale persona characters since they have a really complicated and dumb scaling
https://preview.redd.it/a365fu9n0bad1.jpeg?width=621&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3bcc6bc1a8e7c2692dec71b77bd07eeb13d66053
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I mean technically cant the thieves just spam healing items and moves
https://preview.redd.it/60hxvbnp0bad1.jpeg?width=718&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c7aa9260edbd02dd2759b82f3f8ff296d0b5c116
Bro Krillin could easily take them all.
Insert the Concentrate + Myriad of Truths meme because I cant be fucked grabbing it myself. Serious answer: DBS overall scales higher. I know there can be arguments for Persona (and if we really wank it, we can compare it to SMT but realistically everyone from Persona is fodder compared to the rest of the SMT cosmology) but I'd give it to the ToP crew more times then the phantom thieves.
Considering Goku literally broke a time altering ability by just powering up more, good luck making any argument about the idea of space time altering effects beat them, at this point it's just whether or not we say Goku breaks hax like he always has with just being strong, or if you take that away. Not to mention, Goku has a Zeno button, press and just let the super ultra god erase existence itself since he doesn't follow the same rules that the persona gods follow
Idk a lot about persona but I asked a friend and the phantom thieves probably win he told be they are like hyper/outerversal+ immeasurable speeds but idk
https://preview.redd.it/5cf8yycy0bad1.png?width=449&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0ae641e4d1be94ac7cac3d2c165f229b4fef2b9b
Again bro I have never played persona so I'm not sure but thanks for the meme😭
https://preview.redd.it/e3rydxx9niad1.jpeg?width=950&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a715f2968ca6a1cfd472533dd07ca0e2f079ded3 Np💯
Dragon ball
izanagi no okami solos lol. D
who wins, goku or stand users that only work when they’re in their own fucking metaverse lmao
you gotta specify where they're fighting at
It really depends on what you deem as fair to scale for the PTs. If you scale them with reference to SMT as a whole they unironically neg the verse, but if you scale them with only the Persona games in mind they lose hard. Not only that but their powers only really do anything in specific circumstances (the metaverse) which makes them infuriating to scale. Now throw an actual SMT protagonist like Demi-Fiend and he’ll solo the verse.
Dragon ball solos cause I hate joker mains in smash
Joker gets beaten up by normal ass riot cops. But persona wins this if we go by SMT scaling.
TUI Goku, UE Vegeta, Black Frieza, Orange Piccolo, Beast Gohan, and Roshi with the evil containment wave? Tf are the Phantom Thieves gonna do?
Me
Krillin stomps
U joking?
Goku solo's
goku solos
 Nuh uh
Yeaaaaa nah even if they tried their usual strategy their ducked because ain’t no way half those mfs got palaces
They’ll never see it coming Seriously though. The Phantom Thieves don’t even fight within the space of reality. The Z Fighters literally won’t see it coming.
https://preview.redd.it/chvq7cwbqcad1.png?width=270&format=png&auto=webp&s=4d8a7c3f74f5503e21ac68865e2b97658074f8ea
Joker fought a god conjured from society’s desires, killed said god and saved humanity, has goku killed a god? No he hasn’t, not to mention that said god is like a natural force, people’s twisted desires are a part of the world.
He fought and fights them in a regular basis tho. He just isn't a fan of killing unless necessary.
True, I honestly think this post is more complex because i feel these characters universes don’t crossover well, for instance we don’t know if goku would be immune to the dark hour, how would joker get damaged if he decides to use a persona with null elements and physical damage, how would myriad of truths work, and would megidolan deal any damage to Goku. There’s so many factors that make it hard to apply to a fight scenario.
Lol ren is literally outerversal. Phantom thieves stomp. (Which is stupid)
You sent 10 tactical nukes against a couple of teenagers and a cat
ren alone beats everybody with ease😭
Presuming it takes place in the Metaverse (which, since you're using the Phantom Thieves, I'm comfortable in assuming), the P5 team should very easily take it. Joker can use Metatron. [Metatron is described here as being equal to Shaddai](https://imgur.com/a/metatron-5ynjrAW), meaning he's just another avatar of YHVH. That means he's comparable to Chokma, the embodiment of the realm beyond dimensions [described here](https://imgur.com/a/megaten-scanslave-05-oIzYrYV).
Frieza is going to blend those twinks into gory red drinks
The cosmology of the persona verse is created by archetypes in the collective unconscious which should lead to infinite potentials in the verse. This is like easy outer right? https://preview.redd.it/f065rlkbl8ad1.jpeg?width=4096&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47ac230db8b75033737bbbdc0c7ece18c702c3bf
https://preview.redd.it/lsxssjo81bad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2eee8a78313b7ff20dc07fb33d5664daa46e7627
Joker alone is overkill
https://preview.redd.it/2i7wbwnq0bad1.jpeg?width=1119&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7385c0e7f49d11f94406546c39e968a8abc693ff
Team persona shitstomps 💀
https://preview.redd.it/sedvdrr21bad1.png?width=588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9eac3deb97bc5c455552d2f6f84e88fca90b5601
Never played Persona but Z fighters solo
Even if you don't buy Outerversal Persona they still outhax Team Universe 7 by a large margin so I think the Phantom Thieves take this
Playing the Devil’s Advocate and ignoring all of the evidence that the Phantom Thieves are stronger, let’s assume the Dragon Ball team is stronger. Even with that, they have no way around the PT’s abilities and resistances. They can reflect physical damage, one person can warp reality to become immune to damage with the Omnipotent Orb, the Break spells can negate the damage resistances the DB team has, can revive team members with Samarecarem, they can stack buffs as much as they want when they aren’t limited by gameplay mechanics, and they can will themselves back to existence from conceptual erasure. Even if they die and you want to ignore Samarecarem, they can just come back anyway. BFR won’t work since they can go into the Velvet Room and walk back to the fight. This is still massively lowballing the Persona franchise and ignoring 90% of the actual lore. This is the equivalent of saying Goku is wall level because Broly hurt him by dragging his head through the ice.
https://preview.redd.it/nltjhlt41bad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b404d805094e14f06c50a4cf92a3dfd67b185867
Glazing persona like crazy. DB scales way higher dude lmfao
I’m intentionally lowballing the Persona franchise to make a point. I didn’t even touch on the Thieves Den (literally called “My Palace” in Japanese) and the Cognitive versions of every antagonist, including Adam Kadmon and Yaldabaoth.
Poor glazer.. he doesnt even realize how hard his verse gets solo'd...
Goku when the literal christian god and the personification of death pull up
Any persona character when goku scales past multiversal and they cant touch him because of ui
Honestly multiversal probably doesnt help much against the stronger SMT characters
Hakai + UI are enough, he doesn't even need to scale that high (even tho he DOES outscale the whole persona verse)
Goku solos memes aside, the question is more like who is the weakest SMT character who can defeat the entirety of dragon ball. Smt scaling is infamously ridiculous, though kinda more lore based.
Its not a meme. Your verse gets solo'd, dude.
Kamehameha is almighty damage lol
It’s not almighty, almighty damage is existence erasure which the kamehameha does not do
Makarakarn or Tetrakarn would solve that by sending it back at full power to Team Dragon Ball. I don't know if it would count as a Magic or Physical attack but one will send it back.
Dragon Fist should count as a strength based almighty attack Also iirc Tetrakarn/Makarakarn doesn't reflect almighty attacks
Makarakarn and Tetrakarn do reflect the Almighty element, at least according to the SMT wiki.
"Megidolaon deals Almighty damage to all enemies. As it is Almighty, it cannot be resisted or blocked/repelled/drained, and [Makarakarn](https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Makarakarn) has no effect on it despite the attack being a Magic skill." according to the SMT wiki
Sorry read the one below Persona 5 on the description.
I've been playing so much SMT VV I don't really remember if it happened in Persona too
The Z Fighters are casual planet busters. Unless we start specifically wanking game mechanics like repel skills, there is not much they can do honestly. Also, how are you supposed to interpret personas like Messiah and Izanami no okami? And even with the highest scalings, the PTs just get speedblitzed. If not speedblitzed, the Z fighters can just destroy earth and have them die from lack of oxygen (even if realistically they would never do something like that)
well it does depend on how high you scale them, lowball scalings dragonball stomps, midrange scalings dragonball stomps. really highball scaling then it's difficult but persona series does edge out a win due to complete immunity outside of allmighty with joker, and having the AP to damage DB characters.
Goku destroys Earth and instant transmissions to King Kai's. What can they do?
Even Freeza can do that and he can live in outer space
Ignoring how out of character that is for goku. outside of the fact that leaving the battlefield is BFR so goku loses with that presumption, the phantom thieves can either bank on mona to just get them out, use the metaverse to go to a safe location, or go to the velvet room if the fight takes place in the metaverse already. the other issue is that joker can just as easily face tank the kamehameha with his immunities or counter the kamehameha with the fact that their AP is about the same. EDIT: This is assuming you are talking about wanked phantom thieves.
Freeza can destroy Earth from outer space
https://preview.redd.it/7imom18d1bad1.jpeg?width=618&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d489d14fe98a8503dd183621b135a10ff9b3eb43
Russian army vs daycare basically
Db team wins everytime personas cant even win against nightmares their best wepon is like a pistol… they have to shoot themself to get a powerup
If they have access to all items the phantom thieves stomp and even without it joker takes the dub because of his hacks and abilities since they have no way of bypassing their null/reflect
https://preview.redd.it/005v1k3g1bad1.jpeg?width=718&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b7a78432e587e5b1e433426b202e5db7842db2b7
The phantom thieves (I'm "totally" not biast)
https://preview.redd.it/5138vj0t0bad1.jpeg?width=588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d5b91f3b8e5bc9fbdf2c8e63911d17932a73a90
All these people clutching at straws trying to compare small planet feats , GOKU SHOOK AN INFINITE PLANE BECAUSE HE POWERED UP , he did not attack he just charged his ki, and that was enough to shake INFINITY..
Bruh this fights not fair joker alone solos let alone the whole squad don't believe me look up his stats and or just play the game.( Dragon Ball Stan here by the way).
Is this a joke? Any individual member of u7 would solo the entirety of the persona verse.
Unless Persona verse also includes SMT
Oh dear, oof to the Dragon Team!😂😖😣😬
https://preview.redd.it/4ei5htce1bad1.png?width=588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f01df57aa154995056538a5d0e199a0325d3d14a
Sorry to burst your bubble, but Persona and Megami Tensei characters are Outerverse level, way beyond the power levels of the Dragon Ball characters! You can cope all you want, but Goku and the game ain’t winning this thing!😐🫤😑🫥 
https://preview.redd.it/n6y9u8ashcad1.jpeg?width=588&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=608733e01663c7af52f73fed37d5265932691ee8 Rule 377 says otherwise
Too bad that rule isn’t canon!😆🤣😂😏😎 
https://preview.redd.it/zrterxg9icad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9ee626046b7e7aa1c3792900461c61f32b400af3 Very cannon statments put Soloku above fiction
Nice edited comic!😆🤣😂😏😎 
https://preview.redd.it/s40ahmgajcad1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a8957a874b8103888658364fb239669b31976de8 Some more very real statements since you don't believe me
All I see is more fake non-canon edits!😆🤣😂 Man, you coping really hard!😏😎
Idk why you’re getting downvoted you’re right