Ochiba’s father was manic. Neutralizing him was not simply a self serving act. Ochiba had an illegitimate son she has used to falsify her way into power. If she really cared about the child’s wellbeing, she wouldn’t have had him in the first place… these aren’t good guys vs bad guys, these are ambitious politicians cutting through obstacles. The real question is, under whose rule would Japan be better off under?
She chose to marry him in order to get power and status. On the pretense of giving him a heir.
Then she had an illegitimate child.
She had all of this planned.
>! She didn't plan to marry him (and she didn't actually marry him, she was one of his many concubines). She was basically given no choice. It was either become his concubine or die. Then, when she also couldn't conceive like his many other concubines, she resorted to deception as a way to achieve what she was meant to do. I think she realized that the problem was the Taiko, but in that day and age, failure to conceive was always pinned on the woman. She was again left with a tough choice, and chose the one that wouldn't lead to her being executed or sold off to a brothel. !<
>! If I recall correctly from the book, it was a random farmer she met while taking a walk. She chose someone of lower rank because he wasn't likely to come forward and claim to have slept with her - he'd have been executed whether they believed him or not. He got his rocks off for an afternoon, and she bore a son and was thus free of the drugging and other methods they used to try to get her to conceive. !<
Toranaga's territory doubled in one year with six sets of marriage, so it is not surprising that she recognized him as a threat for the heir.
Assuming Ochiba is correct, there is an interesting similarity.
Toranaga instigated Jinsai, and Jinsai killed Kuroda. The doer was ordered to Seppuku. The instigator survived.
Omi instigated Nagakado, and Nagakado killed Jozen. The doer was ordered to Seppuku. The instigator survived.
It's also very suspicious that of the Taiko's hundreds of concubines and consorts that only Lady Ochiba was able to produce an heir.
So she has personal stake in acting against Tororanga.
I assumed it was someone else's. How could they even do basic paternity check back then? All she had to do was have sex with him once and say oh wow, look, it's his!
I hadn't read the book when I saw the 1st episode...
When the taiko was dying, Ochiba and Toranaga exchanged glances several times. My 1st thought was that Toranaga was the actual father of the heir.
Perhaps the 2nd episode where Toranaga is still in Osaka, he was with the heir and again it felt to me like he could have been the father.
Once I realized Tora had Ochibas dad killed, my theory fell to pieces.
In the book it is revealed at the end that she had sex with a peasant in the fields and then realized that Toranaga was in the vicinity and most likely saw her.
that's right, I forgot about the territory issue. I imagined that was normal behavior at the time to just keep marrying but I can see how it might not be.
All you have to do is change the focus from Toranaga to Ochiba and you have an incredibly sympathetic protagonist who is also just trying to do her duty to the best of her ability.
We would like Toranaga more if it's true, because her father is presented in the show as a kind of GoT "Mad King". We get a montage of him murdering people for fun.
Wasn’t Toranaga tasked with eliminating the council because his son will be killed by them? Nobody knows that Toranaga is simply following the secret last wish of his Lord.
It changes nothing because it's been said many times in the show that her father was a brute. I mean I guess becoming a Shogun is a threat to the heir.
Ochiba’s father was manic. Neutralizing him was not simply a self serving act. Ochiba had an illegitimate son she has used to falsify her way into power. If she really cared about the child’s wellbeing, she wouldn’t have had him in the first place… these aren’t good guys vs bad guys, these are ambitious politicians cutting through obstacles. The real question is, under whose rule would Japan be better off under?
yes you're right, that is the real question
If she didnt have a son she would at best be discarded by Hideyoshi and at worst killed.
She chose to marry him in order to get power and status. On the pretense of giving him a heir. Then she had an illegitimate child. She had all of this planned.
>! She didn't plan to marry him (and she didn't actually marry him, she was one of his many concubines). She was basically given no choice. It was either become his concubine or die. Then, when she also couldn't conceive like his many other concubines, she resorted to deception as a way to achieve what she was meant to do. I think she realized that the problem was the Taiko, but in that day and age, failure to conceive was always pinned on the woman. She was again left with a tough choice, and chose the one that wouldn't lead to her being executed or sold off to a brothel. !<
Whos the father of the heir tho?
>! If I recall correctly from the book, it was a random farmer she met while taking a walk. She chose someone of lower rank because he wasn't likely to come forward and claim to have slept with her - he'd have been executed whether they believed him or not. He got his rocks off for an afternoon, and she bore a son and was thus free of the drugging and other methods they used to try to get her to conceive. !<
Oh ok thanks for this.
Oh my god that’s not actually the taiko’s son???
I'm not sure if the same thing is addressed much in the show, but yes, in the books, it's a subplot.
Toranaga's territory doubled in one year with six sets of marriage, so it is not surprising that she recognized him as a threat for the heir. Assuming Ochiba is correct, there is an interesting similarity. Toranaga instigated Jinsai, and Jinsai killed Kuroda. The doer was ordered to Seppuku. The instigator survived. Omi instigated Nagakado, and Nagakado killed Jozen. The doer was ordered to Seppuku. The instigator survived.
It's also very suspicious that of the Taiko's hundreds of concubines and consorts that only Lady Ochiba was able to produce an heir. So she has personal stake in acting against Tororanga.
yes it is a bit odd, they haven't approached the issue yet, but perhaps the child was someone else's...?
I assumed it was someone else's. How could they even do basic paternity check back then? All she had to do was have sex with him once and say oh wow, look, it's his!
I hadn't read the book when I saw the 1st episode... When the taiko was dying, Ochiba and Toranaga exchanged glances several times. My 1st thought was that Toranaga was the actual father of the heir. Perhaps the 2nd episode where Toranaga is still in Osaka, he was with the heir and again it felt to me like he could have been the father. Once I realized Tora had Ochibas dad killed, my theory fell to pieces.
yes I noticed the glances too and thought perhaps the same. But maybe they will tie back to it later
The taiko also mentioned how Ochiba could’ve Toranaga’s wife at some point, he answers something along the lines of not liking beautiful women
I think they hinted at that.
In the book it is revealed at the end that she had sex with a peasant in the fields and then realized that Toranaga was in the vicinity and most likely saw her.
that's right, I forgot about the territory issue. I imagined that was normal behavior at the time to just keep marrying but I can see how it might not be.
All you have to do is change the focus from Toranaga to Ochiba and you have an incredibly sympathetic protagonist who is also just trying to do her duty to the best of her ability.
We would like Toranaga more if it's true, because her father is presented in the show as a kind of GoT "Mad King". We get a montage of him murdering people for fun.
Wasn’t Toranaga tasked with eliminating the council because his son will be killed by them? Nobody knows that Toranaga is simply following the secret last wish of his Lord.
It changes nothing because it's been said many times in the show that her father was a brute. I mean I guess becoming a Shogun is a threat to the heir.