I kindof wanted the occasional reference in SG seasons when Jack isn’t part of the team that he’s off on a “check up” with Maybournes planet every now and then, clearly making sure Maybournes not up to any more trouble and enjoying some frenemy time.
That was his only sin though, being annoying, he was right more often than not and everytime he's on screen the main characters look like throbbing assholes. The only reason we're supposed to hate him is because he opposes the main characters who act like they have the God given right to play as fast and loose as they want. He's a guy that's smart enough to act like plot armor isn't a certainty.
Weir's interactions with him made me *despise* her.
>He's a guy that's smart enough to act like plot armor isn't a certainty.
Oh, that's a great way to put it. The only guy in the room that didn't bank on plot armor.
Weir's interactions with him flipped the script for me, too. He's supposed to be the one with the terrible attitude and she puts him in his place, but her actions only justify his attitude. She's absolutely terrible with him.
This.
Mark Twain said, "Tact is the ability to tell a man to go to Hell, and actually have him look forward to the trip."
She could have told him that while his input is valuable, there is a time and place, this ain't *it*, and the chain of command exists for a reason, and we're doing things *this way, here*, and if he feels he's being treated unfairly, he has *options*. All the same things she wanted to impute, but 60% less asshole that creates someone dedicated to undermining you, lessening their stock among peers, and causing them to just "phone it in" from then on to let you twist when you screw up.
What we *don't do* is threaten people with their jobs (without a *whole lot of steps and documentation*), nor threatening to drop them off on a planet, nor do we belittle our people *in front of their fucking peers*.
And we certainly don't torture them, or leave them to believe they're going to be tortured.
Right? A simple "Noted, but we still have to try to save these people" would have done the job. Then he looks like the selfish asshole and she looks good (which is what I think the writers wanted).
Instead, he looks totally justified for hating them the rest of the time he's there.
Lessening a problem employees stock among peers is a valid punitive action. Not only does that dissuade like behavior in the future from all parties, but it requires of the offending employee more effort to regain lost status.
That is a win win from the perspective of one in an a position of authority.
But as a character, she's absolutely shining. I think too many people get caught up in wanting the lead characters in their shows to be perfect every time. Weir is such an interesting character because she's often wrong or over her boots. She's often making flawed decisions as a leader but she puts in the hours and she has the respect of her people.
I still disagree, because the writers, the show, they ignore that she was wrong. They treat her like she was morally right all along and that Kavanaugh deserved it. She wasn't, and he didn't because he was correct in almost every situation.
There was no apology, they don't even acknowledge it at all until they threaten to torture him just because they don't like him (remember, they had the wrong guy!), and even then still no apology.
Maybe they were trying to make a new smarmy unlikable guy like McKay was early on, but they were forcing it and failed.
The truth is, she was terrible, her writing was terrible, and had she been anything other than a main character she would have come across no different than one of the government bad guys.
Huh, that’s not the way I remember it but it’s been a few years since I’ve watched it. I guess I’ll see how I feel, I’m on the last dozen eps of Sg1 before starting an Atlantis watch through.
The real problem with her leadership is that she remains in leadership after they reestablish gate activation. Once they had a way home, someone more fitting to a scientific military outpost should have been installed permanently. The weight of leadership on a diplomat in over her head and was an interesting hook for a short while. I would have really dug Paul Davis taking command of Atlantis as he was readily familiar with every angle of the Stargate program from a US national intelligence perspective, an IOA perspective, scientific, military, and diplomatic concerns. He'd have been a great candidate to have a functional and respectful working relationship with Woolsey on the occasional oversight review while providing enough of a different perspective to keep the show's dramatic tensions afloat.
Sure, Davis would have been an amazing option for base commander. But he was military, and the civilian oversight thing is a separator for Atlantis from sgc. Still that’s what I love about Weir, she’s a realistically flawed leader. You don’t always get leaders who are consistently perfect IRL and she’s a terrifically flawed character. She’s just like so many real world leaders, excelling at one skill while deficient in many others…
Don’t know if you saw the debate the other night…
It was a multinational, multi-agency joint venture. I had initially considered suggesting Davis join on having resigned his post, but Carter was still active duty when she was assigned to Atlantis.
If we're keeping it explicitly non-military, then a post-military career Davis transitions into civilian life working in an advisory capacity with the IOA. He divests himself of his military responsibilities while maintaining a connection to the program. It wouldn't have been hard to transition in his introductory episode by having IOA Davis disregard US military command in favor of something that favors furthering international shared interest. Have a different new leader announced, then screw up in a way that makes it clear they are still loyal to their own nationalistic interests. Davis can foil the intended actions and recover things, currying favor and demonstrating his clear, decisive leadership in alignment with IOA interests.
If you take one action in a vacuum, you can make any argument seem valid. The man had a track record of unacceptable behavior, it is not a leadership flaw to take that into consideration when making decisions.
Weir insulted him, threatened him, and authorized torturing him just because she didn't like him- not because he was wrong or committed a crime.
And you think he should be shot for being in a bad mood after all that?
Your interpretation that she authorized torturing him because she "didn't like him" is nonsense. She authorized actions she deemed necessary to obtain information she believed he had. That was morally problematic, and in the end she was incorrect, but it had nothing to do with her not liking him.
It had everything to do with her not liking him.
She didn't like him, treated him terrible, and then suspected him of crimes when he was unhappy about being treated terrible, because "only the unhappy guy could possibly be a traitor".
That was the exact moment I began to hate her.
He was completely right and she threatens to have him killed by marooning and exposure. She wasn't even enacting bare minimum precautions and acted like he was a coward for wanting them. He was right to call out her bullshit. After contact was reestablished with Earth she should have been removed from command on that alone.
Then we have the episode where she decides to have him tortured (when he wasn't even the spy) and everyone waves it off because they hate him. The only saving grace to her credit out of all of it is that she fesses up that it was an incredibly fucked up thing she ok'd.
She's a horrible leader operating off of emotion not rational thought and her interactions with him showcase that completely. But it supposed to be ok because we're meant to hate Kavanaugh.
I feel like what they did with weir
they did again with young.
only the point with young is we see how out of his depth he is
but with weir the show acts like she is in the right
Plus thats all she is, the civilain leader of SGA, in the episode when the ancients came back and they had to leave Atlantis. All she did was mope around her apartment, "writing" her memoirs. She is litrally a one dimenensional character with nothing in the end to show for it. I'd be pissed at the time if I was Torri Higginson.
> I'd be pissed at the time if I was Torri Higginson.
Absolutely. I don't blame her for leaving the show and not coming back when they had the replicators show up.
Well there is the fact that he started the self destruct sequence on the midway station because he didn’t think things through despite being told to wait. So I don’t really agree that his only sin was annoyance. Passing out in the face of danger is another in this line of work.
>Passing out in the face of danger is another in this line of work.
He's a civilian scientist, not a soldier. Even Daniel and McKay were almost that bad early on. Can't blame him for that one, only the self destruct- which by the way was a trap. We've seen other characters do worse and not blame them for their mistakes.
The fact of the matter is, the very first time we see him we see Weir treating him like dirt. It really should be no surprise that he's confrontational from that point forward.
Truly annoying, and a horse's ass--but he was *right*, especially when dealing with Weir (one of the weaker leaders in the Stargate ecosphere).
A prime example that could be used in a class on how *not* to motivate your people.
I think that's what redeems Kavanaugh. As much as he is a dick, he is a dick who is right much of the time. He may say stuff no one wants to hear, but it's truth.
Ben Cotton is awesome.
100%. He just has zero tact.
He reminds me of my brother, in a way. One of those "people hate me because I just say it how it is" types. Nah man, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
I think Weir would’ve worked best as joint-commander for the Atlantis mission with a more authoritative and forthright military leader alongside her.
Sheppard is meant to be that role (though a station just beneath) but often came off as “she’s the boss I do what she says”. Great team leader but a bit too irreverent and friendly/silly to be the man in charge imo.
I actually thought Caldwell and Weir working together at times was a good insight into how the show maybe should’ve been. They can have friction with each other but Caldwell putting forward his view strongly usually led to Weir being more assertive and giving better answers to why she thought her plan was better suited.
There was never a good reason to hate him. He perfectly exemplifies (including your comment) how people just like to put all blame and hate on the 'oddball', because he's a bit different and annoying in personal interaction.
The rest of the team was continuously dismissing him and being a dick to him, and you fell for the peer pressure.
> people just like to put all blame and hate on the 'oddball', because he's a bit different and annoying in personal interaction.
He was an oddball and a bit different in the way that he was a scientist geek, as someone like Sheppard or O'Neill would see him. Except that he was surrounded by other oddball, scientist geeks that also didn't like him.
"I have no friends here, my work is not respected..."
―Peter Kavanagh
We're supposed to not like Kavanagh, and it's to the credit of Ben Cotton that we do indeed hate him. He created a great character. It's not dissimilar to McKay, except McKay was given the redemption arc of the entire Atlantis series.
This is the correct answer because all the others were intentionally written to have their flaws while Pete was supposed to be a good guy and was written as a creepy stalker on accident.
This exactly. I’m convinced at least one person in the writers room had either a stalker or power dynamics kink, given how often Carter had guys after her who gave off stalker vibes or had some kind of power dynamics thing going on with her.
I don't consider him a creep for buying the house, I consider him an idiot for completely misreading the situation. His first red flag was when Carter's face completely dropped when she saw the ring and didn't say yes for something like two weeks.
On the date, I saw it as a bit of roleplay but when he's pushing into her private affairs and her work, that was a dangerous lack of respect for boundaries. Plus it nearly got him killed.
Senator Kinsey. Just because he point out a few things didn’t make him right. Being a politician doesn’t help.
Peter Kavanagh. He embodies failed his way upward.
Personally I don’t like Varro on SGU. Useless and felt like he was hiding something.
I agree. Maybe in real life I’d have more sympathy for his situation and why he continually runs away and fears for himself but in a tv show? Over and over again? Just obnoxious
I'll go to my grave that they did Ford (and the actor Rainbow Sun Francks) dirty. Could have developed him instead of making him disappear.
But, without that, we wouldn't have had "Chewie", would we?
True. It seems there were whole writers-actor debate on his character but most people(including myself) didn't know and (honestly care) the fiasco. Glad that he got *disappeared* by Wraith-hybrid sh\*t.
None. There is not a single character in Stargate that is worthless.
Even Pete was perfectly written so that decades later us fans would still be coming together to shit all over him, bonding in the process.
It's beautiful.
I like that actor whats-his-name who plays Lucius too much to "despise the character" per se but he's certainly no harmless villain. He's (Richard Kind) in the original Stargate film as well as you may or may not recall.
Kinsey (>!barely got his comeuppance!<), Pete (creepy stalker), Kavanagh (smarmy jackass who deserves to be pushed off a cliff), Lucius (for the reasons you mentioned), Urgo (he drives me NUTS), and Harlan (he drives me almost as nutty as Urgo).
gonna go for worthless here, but, i always felt like Apophis was just the most lame, cowardly and ineffective villain of the whole series who only lasted as long as he did because they hadnt created any better long term villains yet.
Wild to me that Ra, long considered one of the most powerful goauld who kept the galaxy and other goauld in check for millenia, gets killed inside of a week by some earth randos who have no idea what theyre doing, but apophis, who for sure, among many who didnt want that smoke from Ra, steps in and causes problems for earth for literal years, unchecked while also appearing to be more less totally incompetent the entire time.
I would have said that about Sokar. Bro decided to be the devil and he's only around for half a season before Apophis just shanks him and takes his shit like it was a hold up in Detroit.
For some reason, Ra's fate reminds me of Gustavo Fring's fate from Breaking Bad: both were at their top for a long time in their territory, had a large operation that ran like clockwork, but everything they worked for their entire life gets destroyed in very short time by essentially a pair of nobodies, and both Ra and Gus die from a bomb to the face.
actually i totally agree with this. im rewatching better call saul right now and was thinking about how crazy it is that a nobody like walter took out both gus and mike.
Being new to a system makes you have a different perspective and may cause you to act in a way that others that have been playing the game for years would never expect. Kind of like how someone brand new to poker might have better luck because they’re making idiotic decisions (statistically) which throws off the other players’ strategies.
Lucius is the worst on SGA. I really hate that character why on earth did that bring him back!? 😫
Stalker Pete is probably tops for the worst though. Dude stalked his own girlfriend, nearly blew their operation, almost got himself killed in the process and bought a house for him and Sam without her even seeing it.
Man, I'm the opposite with Kolya, he just makes me mad at Sheppard. After the first betrayal, it was his duty to execute him and he failed at this task repeatedly.
He grew on me by the end of the show but Ben Browder wasn’t a good follow up act to RDA. He mostly just came off as kind of annoying and a try hard imo.
Guy had an impossible act to follow-up on. He did nit replace Jack, he was a new addition of the team (like my beloved Vala). In the end Mitchell got integrated, but Jack was obv never replaced.
The only thing that still irks me to this day tho is the fact that there is no chemistry between him and Daniel, whereas Jack<->Daniel interactions were always SOLID GOLD. Cam doesn't even adress him as "Daniel", even tho he calls Sam and Teal'c by their names, instead he (almost) always calls him "Jackson" to the point of it being jarring.
I think they wanted to make lightning strike twice with the ‘funny colonel’ shtick that RDA nailed. The O’Neill character worked because RDA has great range and a rather wonderful sense of comic timing. And yeah just a little bit of 80s action hero cheese.
Ben Browder doesn’t have that, and the Mitchell character was written too often in the early days like he did. He comes across - to me, ymmv - as embarrassingly miscast and occasionally unwatcjable.
And where Jack was given ballast because we saw that he was a profoundly kind and decent man, we were just *told* that Mitchell was and that he was somehow the real hero of the Antarctic battle etc. So he looked like playing to a trope more than a layered character.
I think his best moments were when he was opposite Vala, and there was potential for her to be an excellent foil for his character in the same way Daniel was for Jack - and we saw how that relationship benefitted and grew both characters. Of course we didn’t get a lot of that because a lot of episodes split the team into Vala+Daniel and Cam+Sam scenes which was a terrible missed opportunity imo. This still grates on me when I watch seasons 9 and 10.
Say it ain’t so, not Cam! Them’s fightin’ words, consider my pearls clutched. Cam is the new step dad who does everything right but still gets shut down by the fandom because nobody was ready to welcome some new dude. He never tried to replace Jack, he just tried to be himself. And all he got was guff for showing up to every baseball game, getting excited for birthdays, making Christmas special, and always being ready with a kind word. And he never got a complex about it either. God he was spectacular.
Probably Kavanagh. They wrote him to be way worse in later episodes but in his first episode he just shows cowardice, something Rodney does all the time. I just think Rodney gets a pass because he's written as the genius character of the show. More than anything I think cowards would have had no business being on that mission and the people back home should have had a better vetting program.
Rodney especially isn't shown as a capable character until he becomes a main cast member in Atlantis, every interaction he has with Sam in previous SG-1 episodes his ideas are the wrong ones. When Kavanagh later gets reassigned to the midway station I felt like that was just an excuse to show this character was still shitty, it would have been much more interesting if he had some growth, because staying a coward makes me question why they would reassign him in the first place when they should have just sent him back home.
Nah he wouldn't quit. In his mind they made such terrible decisions that he felt he'd be required to stay to prevent the end of humanity at our own hands even if they didn't usually listen to him. He also probably felt like eventually there would be more "reasonable" leadership that would see the light and put him in charge of everything
You guys hate Kolya AND Michael? They are fleshed out characters, flawed but real.
Michael was betrayed time and time again, and it shows, Kolya was on a power-trip with a nationalist twist.
Lucious? Lucious is a straight-up asshole and a comic relief, so worthless/despised all right.
My choice tho would be Pete and/or Kinsey. Truly irredeemable characters, at least Kinsey's actor did one hell of a job of acting as punchable a man as one can be (like Joffrey in GoT).
Ok I need some details, she’s far from perfect but I wouldn’t have pegged her as deserving this sort of hate. I really disliked how whiny she could be in the beginning but I saw it more as a crappy writing thing than truly a canon reflection of her character. What was it for you, what’d she do? Or not do?
Well, my favourite character was bumped off for her, so she was doomed from the start. Then she was given a spot on the main cast even though she'd done nothing to earn it with the viewers, the producers just thought they could shove a new doctor in our faces and we'd be okay with it. They didn't do that with Janet, so why did Carson get that treatment?
She was whiny, flat, uninteresting, uninspiring. She had no chemistry or interesting dynamic with the other characters. She was there to fulfil the writer's self-insert romantic fantasy. She went to another galaxy and didn't even do boot camp, so a heavily pregnant Teyla had to save her butt for an entire episode. She was just so useless.
Most people would say kavanaugh, but imo its too easy to hate on him as he was pushed so far into that hole by writers.
Personally i cant stand Hank laundry.
Oneill, Weir were both fine in my book, it was definitely a downgrade from Hammond but they were still good, and weir proved that she was leadership material on Atlantis, pretty impressive.
But nobody made me miss Hammond as much as Hank
Weir? Leadership material? Did we watch a different show? :D I would agree she's a good leader in SG-1 (although I'd prefer the previous, more believable actress) but in SGA she's laughable as a commander and only good as a negotiator further down the line, when the writers remembered that she was actually a MASTER NEGOTIATOR.
I dont agree, she was a good leader S1-S2.
People looked up to her and respected her, and for a civilian, she did pretty well with the cards she was dealt and all the crisis atlantis went through.
There are entire threads with all the blunders she did when in command. S01 mid-season finale (Genii incursion) is the result of her not establishing proper stargate force-field enabling/disabling procedures.
Literally two episodes later she's incoompetent yet again at maintaining proper quarantine procedures (oh, right, transporters are on the same circuit as doors kek).
The list goes on, and on, and on.
The whole Michael incident? I'm sorry, MULTIPLE incidents, resulting in making a formidable enemy? Yeah, totally not idiotic decisions made by Dr. Weir xD
"Let's try to wipe his memory again, because it worked so well in the past. What do you mean he got his memories back?! **pikachuface**"
Most of the "crisis Atlantis went through" were caused by Dr. Weir's lack of leadership skills. She was the commanding (civilian) officer, so final say was hers.
Felgar was fanservice--he was *us*, buddy!! :)
And the more I watch Gerak, the more I like it (I loved Louis Gossett, Jr. anyways--*Enemy Mine* was *awesome*--).
The old warrior, trying to hold on to glory, and pursuing eternity - you feel for him, which I think was the intention, and to showcase how dangerous the Ori are, beyond their ships, weapons, and fanaticism.
But that's just me. :)
They completely blew the opportunity to develop him with the writing, or maybe Jason completely blew the opportunity to develop and grow his character. The episode *Sateda* was an incredible chance that wasn't maximized nearly as much as it should have. The episode *The Shrine* I think came the closest to showing some depth to the Ronin Dex character, but it was of course a very excellent Rodney McKay episode.
Mayborne is uncool but resoruceful at the same time, like a cockroach. To be honest after all the things he goes through he ended up growing on me.
King Arkhan I had the 2nd best redemption arc of the franchise.
I kindof wanted the occasional reference in SG seasons when Jack isn’t part of the team that he’s off on a “check up” with Maybournes planet every now and then, clearly making sure Maybournes not up to any more trouble and enjoying some frenemy time.
Who had the first? And don't say Teal'c because he's literally a good guy from day 1.
Woolsey.
Acceptable answer.
Maybourne is one of my favorites character, even when he was pure antagonist
He definitely had a redemption arc of sorts, not for his moral character but for his entertainment value lol
“Mayborne, you are an idiot every day of the week, couldn’t you have just taken one day off?!” -Carter, Foothold
Jaaaaaack.
I wish they could’ve brought Maybourne back in later episodes.
To me Mayborne ended being like Supernatural's Crowley.
Peter Kavanagh. Ben Cotton was awesome at creating a thoroughly annoying character.
That was his only sin though, being annoying, he was right more often than not and everytime he's on screen the main characters look like throbbing assholes. The only reason we're supposed to hate him is because he opposes the main characters who act like they have the God given right to play as fast and loose as they want. He's a guy that's smart enough to act like plot armor isn't a certainty. Weir's interactions with him made me *despise* her.
>He's a guy that's smart enough to act like plot armor isn't a certainty. Oh, that's a great way to put it. The only guy in the room that didn't bank on plot armor. Weir's interactions with him flipped the script for me, too. He's supposed to be the one with the terrible attitude and she puts him in his place, but her actions only justify his attitude. She's absolutely terrible with him.
I've posted on that line of thinking before, Weir was terrible.
Her telling him off are some of the scenes where she is the best!
Just the opposite. As a leader, she's at her absolute worst in those scenes.
This. Mark Twain said, "Tact is the ability to tell a man to go to Hell, and actually have him look forward to the trip." She could have told him that while his input is valuable, there is a time and place, this ain't *it*, and the chain of command exists for a reason, and we're doing things *this way, here*, and if he feels he's being treated unfairly, he has *options*. All the same things she wanted to impute, but 60% less asshole that creates someone dedicated to undermining you, lessening their stock among peers, and causing them to just "phone it in" from then on to let you twist when you screw up. What we *don't do* is threaten people with their jobs (without a *whole lot of steps and documentation*), nor threatening to drop them off on a planet, nor do we belittle our people *in front of their fucking peers*. And we certainly don't torture them, or leave them to believe they're going to be tortured.
Right? A simple "Noted, but we still have to try to save these people" would have done the job. Then he looks like the selfish asshole and she looks good (which is what I think the writers wanted). Instead, he looks totally justified for hating them the rest of the time he's there.
Lessening a problem employees stock among peers is a valid punitive action. Not only does that dissuade like behavior in the future from all parties, but it requires of the offending employee more effort to regain lost status. That is a win win from the perspective of one in an a position of authority.
But as a character, she's absolutely shining. I think too many people get caught up in wanting the lead characters in their shows to be perfect every time. Weir is such an interesting character because she's often wrong or over her boots. She's often making flawed decisions as a leader but she puts in the hours and she has the respect of her people.
I still disagree, because the writers, the show, they ignore that she was wrong. They treat her like she was morally right all along and that Kavanaugh deserved it. She wasn't, and he didn't because he was correct in almost every situation. There was no apology, they don't even acknowledge it at all until they threaten to torture him just because they don't like him (remember, they had the wrong guy!), and even then still no apology. Maybe they were trying to make a new smarmy unlikable guy like McKay was early on, but they were forcing it and failed. The truth is, she was terrible, her writing was terrible, and had she been anything other than a main character she would have come across no different than one of the government bad guys.
Huh, that’s not the way I remember it but it’s been a few years since I’ve watched it. I guess I’ll see how I feel, I’m on the last dozen eps of Sg1 before starting an Atlantis watch through.
Took me a few re-watches after I got older before I noticed it. But once you see it, it's hard not to be a little blown away.
The real problem with her leadership is that she remains in leadership after they reestablish gate activation. Once they had a way home, someone more fitting to a scientific military outpost should have been installed permanently. The weight of leadership on a diplomat in over her head and was an interesting hook for a short while. I would have really dug Paul Davis taking command of Atlantis as he was readily familiar with every angle of the Stargate program from a US national intelligence perspective, an IOA perspective, scientific, military, and diplomatic concerns. He'd have been a great candidate to have a functional and respectful working relationship with Woolsey on the occasional oversight review while providing enough of a different perspective to keep the show's dramatic tensions afloat.
God Davis being in command of davis would be amazing
Sure, Davis would have been an amazing option for base commander. But he was military, and the civilian oversight thing is a separator for Atlantis from sgc. Still that’s what I love about Weir, she’s a realistically flawed leader. You don’t always get leaders who are consistently perfect IRL and she’s a terrifically flawed character. She’s just like so many real world leaders, excelling at one skill while deficient in many others… Don’t know if you saw the debate the other night…
the problem was the show treats her actions as fucked they present it in a look at weir kicking ass
Atlantis was explicitly NOT a military outpost. It had some military stationed at it, but it was specifically a civilian venture.
It was a multinational, multi-agency joint venture. I had initially considered suggesting Davis join on having resigned his post, but Carter was still active duty when she was assigned to Atlantis. If we're keeping it explicitly non-military, then a post-military career Davis transitions into civilian life working in an advisory capacity with the IOA. He divests himself of his military responsibilities while maintaining a connection to the program. It wouldn't have been hard to transition in his introductory episode by having IOA Davis disregard US military command in favor of something that favors furthering international shared interest. Have a different new leader announced, then screw up in a way that makes it clear they are still loyal to their own nationalistic interests. Davis can foil the intended actions and recover things, currying favor and demonstrating his clear, decisive leadership in alignment with IOA interests.
The man is lucky he wasn't drug out back and shot for some of the shit he did...
he pointed out a reasonable concern about an explosion. and you want him shot
If you take one action in a vacuum, you can make any argument seem valid. The man had a track record of unacceptable behavior, it is not a leadership flaw to take that into consideration when making decisions.
it is a leadership flaw to attack someone publically after they express a valid concern
Weir insulted him, threatened him, and authorized torturing him just because she didn't like him- not because he was wrong or committed a crime. And you think he should be shot for being in a bad mood after all that?
Your interpretation that she authorized torturing him because she "didn't like him" is nonsense. She authorized actions she deemed necessary to obtain information she believed he had. That was morally problematic, and in the end she was incorrect, but it had nothing to do with her not liking him.
It had everything to do with her not liking him. She didn't like him, treated him terrible, and then suspected him of crimes when he was unhappy about being treated terrible, because "only the unhappy guy could possibly be a traitor".
That was the exact moment I began to hate her. He was completely right and she threatens to have him killed by marooning and exposure. She wasn't even enacting bare minimum precautions and acted like he was a coward for wanting them. He was right to call out her bullshit. After contact was reestablished with Earth she should have been removed from command on that alone. Then we have the episode where she decides to have him tortured (when he wasn't even the spy) and everyone waves it off because they hate him. The only saving grace to her credit out of all of it is that she fesses up that it was an incredibly fucked up thing she ok'd. She's a horrible leader operating off of emotion not rational thought and her interactions with him showcase that completely. But it supposed to be ok because we're meant to hate Kavanaugh.
I feel like what they did with weir they did again with young. only the point with young is we see how out of his depth he is but with weir the show acts like she is in the right
Plus thats all she is, the civilain leader of SGA, in the episode when the ancients came back and they had to leave Atlantis. All she did was mope around her apartment, "writing" her memoirs. She is litrally a one dimenensional character with nothing in the end to show for it. I'd be pissed at the time if I was Torri Higginson.
> I'd be pissed at the time if I was Torri Higginson. Absolutely. I don't blame her for leaving the show and not coming back when they had the replicators show up.
Well there is the fact that he started the self destruct sequence on the midway station because he didn’t think things through despite being told to wait. So I don’t really agree that his only sin was annoyance. Passing out in the face of danger is another in this line of work.
>Passing out in the face of danger is another in this line of work. He's a civilian scientist, not a soldier. Even Daniel and McKay were almost that bad early on. Can't blame him for that one, only the self destruct- which by the way was a trap. We've seen other characters do worse and not blame them for their mistakes. The fact of the matter is, the very first time we see him we see Weir treating him like dirt. It really should be no surprise that he's confrontational from that point forward.
Truly annoying, and a horse's ass--but he was *right*, especially when dealing with Weir (one of the weaker leaders in the Stargate ecosphere). A prime example that could be used in a class on how *not* to motivate your people.
I think that's what redeems Kavanaugh. As much as he is a dick, he is a dick who is right much of the time. He may say stuff no one wants to hear, but it's truth. Ben Cotton is awesome.
When I see him on other shows I'm always impressed by his range. He really is a great character actor.
He definitely wasn't right when he disabled the critical systems override on Midway, but other than that he is competent.
Hi, Rodney! :)
100%. He just has zero tact. He reminds me of my brother, in a way. One of those "people hate me because I just say it how it is" types. Nah man, it's not what you say, it's how you say it.
Was it with a welsh accent?
Nah but that probably would have made it more palpable.
I think Weir would’ve worked best as joint-commander for the Atlantis mission with a more authoritative and forthright military leader alongside her. Sheppard is meant to be that role (though a station just beneath) but often came off as “she’s the boss I do what she says”. Great team leader but a bit too irreverent and friendly/silly to be the man in charge imo. I actually thought Caldwell and Weir working together at times was a good insight into how the show maybe should’ve been. They can have friction with each other but Caldwell putting forward his view strongly usually led to Weir being more assertive and giving better answers to why she thought her plan was better suited.
There was never a good reason to hate him. He perfectly exemplifies (including your comment) how people just like to put all blame and hate on the 'oddball', because he's a bit different and annoying in personal interaction. The rest of the team was continuously dismissing him and being a dick to him, and you fell for the peer pressure.
> people just like to put all blame and hate on the 'oddball', because he's a bit different and annoying in personal interaction. He was an oddball and a bit different in the way that he was a scientist geek, as someone like Sheppard or O'Neill would see him. Except that he was surrounded by other oddball, scientist geeks that also didn't like him. "I have no friends here, my work is not respected..." ―Peter Kavanagh We're supposed to not like Kavanagh, and it's to the credit of Ben Cotton that we do indeed hate him. He created a great character. It's not dissimilar to McKay, except McKay was given the redemption arc of the entire Atlantis series.
Pete Shanahan. End of thread
This is the correct answer because all the others were intentionally written to have their flaws while Pete was supposed to be a good guy and was written as a creepy stalker on accident.
This exactly. I’m convinced at least one person in the writers room had either a stalker or power dynamics kink, given how often Carter had guys after her who gave off stalker vibes or had some kind of power dynamics thing going on with her.
The Tolan guy making his household ai her voice, definitely at the very least toes the creepy stalker line.
Ugh I forgot about that.
What kind of creep buys a house without consulting their partner?
Jim Halpert
At least Jim Halpert knew that was bad and the show called him out on it too.
I don't consider him a creep for buying the house, I consider him an idiot for completely misreading the situation. His first red flag was when Carter's face completely dropped when she saw the ring and didn't say yes for something like two weeks.
I didn’t see him as a creep for buying the house. He was a creep for stalking her.
On the date, I saw it as a bit of roleplay but when he's pushing into her private affairs and her work, that was a dangerous lack of respect for boundaries. Plus it nearly got him killed.
IRL he would have ended up in a world of shit.
A stalker apparently.
Exactly! Lucius is just a loser. Pete is a dick on purpose.
I actually enjoyed Lucius.
Everyone loves Lucius, how could they not? He’s so wise and strong and brave and ***dashing***. We would be lost without him.
Honey, this is the \*beginning\* of the thread. Come back in 3 days to find out where it ends.
I don't get addressed as "Honey" very often, thanks!
I, for one, would like a running commentary
Joe Faxon - I think. That guy Sam married who made a deal to sterilize most of the women of earth - or something like that
In his defence they told him 30% and he wasn’t the one who made the deal, the world leaders did, he was just an ambassador so he knew about it.
Yeah, and in the past/ alternate timeline he sorta had a redemption. But future him was a dick
He kind of made up for it in the corrected timeline by sacrificing himself to prevent it.
True!
Frank Simmons for me. Love John de Lancie, but boy do I hate Simmons.
Guy has talent to impersonate villains tbh 😁 How he played Alarak (Tal'Darim Highlord in Starcraft II: Legacy of the Void) is just anthologic 😉
That is my vote too.
Senator Kinsey. Just because he point out a few things didn’t make him right. Being a politician doesn’t help. Peter Kavanagh. He embodies failed his way upward. Personally I don’t like Varro on SGU. Useless and felt like he was hiding something.
> Varro on SGU Thanks for reminding me of the Lucian Alliance. Now, I'm regenerating my hate hard-on for Simeon. We *still* love you, Ginn!!
>Personally I don’t like Varro on SGU. That's the magic of Mike Dopud.
Kinsey. The character I loved to hate.
Kavanagh was an ass, but he was right.
For me, it's Ford. He's just annoying.
I agree. Maybe in real life I’d have more sympathy for his situation and why he continually runs away and fears for himself but in a tv show? Over and over again? Just obnoxious
It's like they couldn't decide whether he's the exuberant newbie or badass airman. I wanted them to just pick a lane.
I'll go to my grave that they did Ford (and the actor Rainbow Sun Francks) dirty. Could have developed him instead of making him disappear. But, without that, we wouldn't have had "Chewie", would we?
Yeah... Ford's only redeeming factor is, that he made room for Ronan.
True. It seems there were whole writers-actor debate on his character but most people(including myself) didn't know and (honestly care) the fiasco. Glad that he got *disappeared* by Wraith-hybrid sh\*t.
> He's just annoying. I didn't know we were naming things.
None. There is not a single character in Stargate that is worthless. Even Pete was perfectly written so that decades later us fans would still be coming together to shit all over him, bonding in the process. It's beautiful.
(I'm high and this is an epiphany)
I'm not high and I agree.
I like that actor whats-his-name who plays Lucius too much to "despise the character" per se but he's certainly no harmless villain. He's (Richard Kind) in the original Stargate film as well as you may or may not recall.
Kinsey (>!barely got his comeuppance!<), Pete (creepy stalker), Kavanagh (smarmy jackass who deserves to be pushed off a cliff), Lucius (for the reasons you mentioned), Urgo (he drives me NUTS), and Harlan (he drives me almost as nutty as Urgo).
COMTRAYA!
Harlan has a good heart
It's probably pneumatic
No it's *better*
From the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh it disgusted me. I craved the strength and certainty of steel.
Kinsey was a key character. Ronny played it to perfection.
He really did! And yes, definitely key, but maaaaaaaan was he hateful. Though seeing SG1 Weir find her spine with him was pretty delightful.
To date, I’ve never seen an actor play a politician so well.
It's like he was born for that role. Hell, a lot of his roles are quite similar.
Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
Telford To this day I have an unhealthy and irrational dislike for Lou Diamond Philips because of Telford. I guess that means he played the part well.
gonna go for worthless here, but, i always felt like Apophis was just the most lame, cowardly and ineffective villain of the whole series who only lasted as long as he did because they hadnt created any better long term villains yet. Wild to me that Ra, long considered one of the most powerful goauld who kept the galaxy and other goauld in check for millenia, gets killed inside of a week by some earth randos who have no idea what theyre doing, but apophis, who for sure, among many who didnt want that smoke from Ra, steps in and causes problems for earth for literal years, unchecked while also appearing to be more less totally incompetent the entire time.
I would have said that about Sokar. Bro decided to be the devil and he's only around for half a season before Apophis just shanks him and takes his shit like it was a hold up in Detroit.
you right, tho.
For some reason, Ra's fate reminds me of Gustavo Fring's fate from Breaking Bad: both were at their top for a long time in their territory, had a large operation that ran like clockwork, but everything they worked for their entire life gets destroyed in very short time by essentially a pair of nobodies, and both Ra and Gus die from a bomb to the face.
actually i totally agree with this. im rewatching better call saul right now and was thinking about how crazy it is that a nobody like walter took out both gus and mike.
Being new to a system makes you have a different perspective and may cause you to act in a way that others that have been playing the game for years would never expect. Kind of like how someone brand new to poker might have better luck because they’re making idiotic decisions (statistically) which throws off the other players’ strategies.
Lucius is the worst on SGA. I really hate that character why on earth did that bring him back!? 😫 Stalker Pete is probably tops for the worst though. Dude stalked his own girlfriend, nearly blew their operation, almost got himself killed in the process and bought a house for him and Sam without her even seeing it.
Man, I'm the opposite with Kolya, he just makes me mad at Sheppard. After the first betrayal, it was his duty to execute him and he failed at this task repeatedly.
Yeah the only reason I dislike Kolya is because everytime he shows up Sheppard has to yell: KOLYYYYAAAAAAAAA stfu sheppard
Cam Mitchell. He’s just Aldi Jack O’Neill
"Aldi Jack O'Neill". I'm going to have to remember that one 😂
r/murderedbywords
lol Diet Jack O’Neill!
I get the sentiment, even though Cameron was such a good guy it was difficult to hate on him by the end of the show
He grew on me by the end of the show but Ben Browder wasn’t a good follow up act to RDA. He mostly just came off as kind of annoying and a try hard imo.
Nobody could give a good follow up to RDA.
Guy had an impossible act to follow-up on. He did nit replace Jack, he was a new addition of the team (like my beloved Vala). In the end Mitchell got integrated, but Jack was obv never replaced. The only thing that still irks me to this day tho is the fact that there is no chemistry between him and Daniel, whereas Jack<->Daniel interactions were always SOLID GOLD. Cam doesn't even adress him as "Daniel", even tho he calls Sam and Teal'c by their names, instead he (almost) always calls him "Jackson" to the point of it being jarring.
I think they wanted to make lightning strike twice with the ‘funny colonel’ shtick that RDA nailed. The O’Neill character worked because RDA has great range and a rather wonderful sense of comic timing. And yeah just a little bit of 80s action hero cheese. Ben Browder doesn’t have that, and the Mitchell character was written too often in the early days like he did. He comes across - to me, ymmv - as embarrassingly miscast and occasionally unwatcjable. And where Jack was given ballast because we saw that he was a profoundly kind and decent man, we were just *told* that Mitchell was and that he was somehow the real hero of the Antarctic battle etc. So he looked like playing to a trope more than a layered character. I think his best moments were when he was opposite Vala, and there was potential for her to be an excellent foil for his character in the same way Daniel was for Jack - and we saw how that relationship benefitted and grew both characters. Of course we didn’t get a lot of that because a lot of episodes split the team into Vala+Daniel and Cam+Sam scenes which was a terrible missed opportunity imo. This still grates on me when I watch seasons 9 and 10.
I suspect they shied away from Vala+Cam because *Farscape* had already done that.
Yeah fair. I still haven’t seen Farscape so that never occurred to me.
It’s definitely worth a watch.
That's a bit harsh and personally don't think him as *O'Neill replacement* but I get people's sentiment.
Say it ain’t so, not Cam! Them’s fightin’ words, consider my pearls clutched. Cam is the new step dad who does everything right but still gets shut down by the fandom because nobody was ready to welcome some new dude. He never tried to replace Jack, he just tried to be himself. And all he got was guff for showing up to every baseball game, getting excited for birthdays, making Christmas special, and always being ready with a kind word. And he never got a complex about it either. God he was spectacular.
Kinsey. Smarmy asshole.
Smarmy with nothing to back it up. Dude's an idiot.
Comet TV has SG-1 on an infinite loop. Anytime Robert Kinsey shows up I hope Jack would just Zat him twice.
so does freevee. it's on ssn4 of atlantis now, i forgot that there huge sections of seasons 2 - 4 i didn't see.
Three times for me. Just erase his existence.
Kavanaugh (if I even spelled that right)
Probably Kavanagh. They wrote him to be way worse in later episodes but in his first episode he just shows cowardice, something Rodney does all the time. I just think Rodney gets a pass because he's written as the genius character of the show. More than anything I think cowards would have had no business being on that mission and the people back home should have had a better vetting program. Rodney especially isn't shown as a capable character until he becomes a main cast member in Atlantis, every interaction he has with Sam in previous SG-1 episodes his ideas are the wrong ones. When Kavanagh later gets reassigned to the midway station I felt like that was just an excuse to show this character was still shitty, it would have been much more interesting if he had some growth, because staying a coward makes me question why they would reassign him in the first place when they should have just sent him back home.
It's kind of funny that Kavanagh appeared at the series finale of Atlantis. I thought he would quit the program long time ago. 😂
Nah he wouldn't quit. In his mind they made such terrible decisions that he felt he'd be required to stay to prevent the end of humanity at our own hands even if they didn't usually listen to him. He also probably felt like eventually there would be more "reasonable" leadership that would see the light and put him in charge of everything
Melon
*Mollem*. Don't diss our favorite space accountant.
Not to be confused with Borren, our least favorite space accountant.
The dude they go on manhunt for in SGU
Simeon.
You guys hate Kolya AND Michael? They are fleshed out characters, flawed but real. Michael was betrayed time and time again, and it shows, Kolya was on a power-trip with a nationalist twist. Lucious? Lucious is a straight-up asshole and a comic relief, so worthless/despised all right. My choice tho would be Pete and/or Kinsey. Truly irredeemable characters, at least Kinsey's actor did one hell of a job of acting as punchable a man as one can be (like Joffrey in GoT).
NERUS [https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Nerus](https://stargate.fandom.com/wiki/Nerus)
Fucking Ryak how is this up for debate?
I think he's in the league of *searing hate of a thousand suns* level per OP.
I agree
For me it's Jennifer Keller, LOL! What a useless character.
You *monster*.
I 'a thousand suns' hate her lol
Ok I need some details, she’s far from perfect but I wouldn’t have pegged her as deserving this sort of hate. I really disliked how whiny she could be in the beginning but I saw it more as a crappy writing thing than truly a canon reflection of her character. What was it for you, what’d she do? Or not do?
Well, my favourite character was bumped off for her, so she was doomed from the start. Then she was given a spot on the main cast even though she'd done nothing to earn it with the viewers, the producers just thought they could shove a new doctor in our faces and we'd be okay with it. They didn't do that with Janet, so why did Carson get that treatment? She was whiny, flat, uninteresting, uninspiring. She had no chemistry or interesting dynamic with the other characters. She was there to fulfil the writer's self-insert romantic fantasy. She went to another galaxy and didn't even do boot camp, so a heavily pregnant Teyla had to save her butt for an entire episode. She was just so useless.
![gif](giphy|ggu8E0UeH7bINjvacc|downsized)
I loved her!
Most people would say kavanaugh, but imo its too easy to hate on him as he was pushed so far into that hole by writers. Personally i cant stand Hank laundry. Oneill, Weir were both fine in my book, it was definitely a downgrade from Hammond but they were still good, and weir proved that she was leadership material on Atlantis, pretty impressive. But nobody made me miss Hammond as much as Hank
Weir? Leadership material? Did we watch a different show? :D I would agree she's a good leader in SG-1 (although I'd prefer the previous, more believable actress) but in SGA she's laughable as a commander and only good as a negotiator further down the line, when the writers remembered that she was actually a MASTER NEGOTIATOR.
I dont agree, she was a good leader S1-S2. People looked up to her and respected her, and for a civilian, she did pretty well with the cards she was dealt and all the crisis atlantis went through.
There are entire threads with all the blunders she did when in command. S01 mid-season finale (Genii incursion) is the result of her not establishing proper stargate force-field enabling/disabling procedures. Literally two episodes later she's incoompetent yet again at maintaining proper quarantine procedures (oh, right, transporters are on the same circuit as doors kek). The list goes on, and on, and on. The whole Michael incident? I'm sorry, MULTIPLE incidents, resulting in making a formidable enemy? Yeah, totally not idiotic decisions made by Dr. Weir xD "Let's try to wipe his memory again, because it worked so well in the past. What do you mean he got his memories back?! **pikachuface**" Most of the "crisis Atlantis went through" were caused by Dr. Weir's lack of leadership skills. She was the commanding (civilian) officer, so final say was hers.
Chloe Armstrong
“EEEELLLIIIIII!” *wet kissing noises* *Crying.* I give you the entire character of Chloe Armstrong.
A thousand suns are not enough for her
Pete. Pete all the way.
Lt. Scott
Kinsey
Pete
Felger. Gerak is also up there.
Felgar was fanservice--he was *us*, buddy!! :) And the more I watch Gerak, the more I like it (I loved Louis Gossett, Jr. anyways--*Enemy Mine* was *awesome*--). The old warrior, trying to hold on to glory, and pursuing eternity - you feel for him, which I think was the intention, and to showcase how dangerous the Ori are, beyond their ships, weapons, and fanaticism. But that's just me. :)
I'd second Lucius. Dude was annoying and had zero redeeming qualities. After him, maybe Kinsey? Kavanaugh? Harlan? Vala's dad Jacek?
That actor has been with the franchise since The Beginning.
Pete.
Urgo.
I loved Urgo!
Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me
Lucius Lavin is just a more likeable Vala.
Oof I hate this but you’re so right
Since she was allowed to join SG-1, it would be only fair for Lucius to lead Sheppard's team.
![gif](giphy|3ohhwqB1XtvYJ8jwUE|downsized)
The gif isn't loading for me
Jason Momoa. He can't act, can barely speak, and his character made me cheer for the Wraith.
They completely blew the opportunity to develop him with the writing, or maybe Jason completely blew the opportunity to develop and grow his character. The episode *Sateda* was an incredible chance that wasn't maximized nearly as much as it should have. The episode *The Shrine* I think came the closest to showing some depth to the Ronin Dex character, but it was of course a very excellent Rodney McKay episode.
I agree with all the Pete comments. I have another one, but I know I'll get downvoted to the pits if I list them.
Bro you can’t just say that and then not reveal it.
Well, say it. :)
Coward.