I can say that I personally have had no issues walking past the encampment or talking to people in the encampment. If you're minding your own business and trying to get from point A to point B, it's pretty much fine. Maybe a little crowded to walk by on Locust/Woodland. I'm a bit of a hermit and don't interact with a lot of people though so š¤·āāļø
I also will say that I do feel slightly stressed by the attention this has drawn to campus - I worry about large numbers of people from outside the university coming to campus for this and I worry about the possibility of violence. There was just a man (counter protester?) who was escorted off campus for bringing knives. This is where most of my worries come from.
I'm certain it wasn't the first time, considering the amount of literal shit I've seen by Irvine Auditorium (I think someone sleeps on the steam vents outside there)
Last I knew, there weren't any places that you can't access because of the encampment besides the green area directly in front of College Hall (it may have changed since I was last over that way, haven't been on campus since the last day of classes). If you needed to get into College Hall, there were barricades lining the walkway up to it that were keeping the encampment out of the walkway. If you needed to get to Van Pelt or Fisher Fine Arts, the walkways were open as well. Penn Police had essentially corralled the encampment to the green space. Like I said - could have changed since I was last around.
Havenāt been around in a while and will take your word for it. Was just curious. Had seen footage from UCLA and itās always a worry that a protest can turn into something else. Iām glad the UPenn one has stayed reasonable
It's impossible to walk down Locust in front of College Green and not be aware of the encampment, but it's very easy to walk past it without becoming part of it, without engaging on one side or the other. It's very quiet for long stretches of time, and then there are chants, or singing, or praying, or dancing. Some of the sounds coming from the camp seem hopeful and celebratory, other sounds seem very angry.
It's really basically just a little island on campus in a very visible location, and most of campus isn't involved in it at all, and I don't think it's been affecting much of what's happening on campus overall. It's certainly an occasional topic of conversation on campus, but unless you're actually walking past it or you're an active supporter/detractor, it's mostly a case of out-of-sight, out-of-mind.
They seem to be very welcoming to people on their side, and very suspicious and even slightly hostile to others. I've been out there quite a bit, and I haven't seen any violence or direct harassment of anyone walking by.
The DP has done an excellent job so far of live blogging what's been going on, with any major developments as they happen, and they've been very good about stating facts without bias.
There are clearly some older and very experienced protesters that are part of the group and likely leading/coordinating the encampment.
It's unclear how many of the people in the encampment are actually Penn students, or even Penn faculty/staff. Maybe most of them? Maybe very few? There's really no way to know.
It's definitely very anti-Israel, but I think it's disingenuous to say it's purely or even mostly antisemitic--especially given the large number of Jews participating in the encampment and related events.
Although I've been a little shocked by a couple of the chants I've heard and slogans I've seen on some signs, such as "Globalize the Intifada" and āAl Qassam make us proud, take another soldier down.ā
> it's disingenuous to say it's purely or even mostly antisemitic
Is it disingenuous to say that a very public encampment in the middle of on Ivy League university should not be even partly antisemitic?
What would you write about the same encampment that was only "partly racist", still splitting hairs in that case? What percentage of racism would be OK with you.
There's always going to be an "element" at every one of these things. Some are false flags, some are just plain imbeciles looking for attention. Don't you think Ben Shapiro and his fans have expressed some anti-Arab sentiment as well?
ur point? or did you just wanna conflate it to nazi germany instead of actually taking time to read literature in which it is used? thought upenn students would be smarter.
The point is that you canāt just take the literal translation in understanding the message of these chants. In a vacuum thereās nothing wrong with saying ārevolutionā in Arabic, but with greater context of what the intifada is, itās clear that itās calling for the global murder of Jews.
While itās true the connotation behind it usually implies violent revolution, I believe itās almost entirely used in the context of a Palestinian uprising against Israel. So not all Jews. Globalize in this context would refer to global support of said revolution against Israel.
They're only talking about 50% of the global Jewish population, which has not yet recovered to pre 1939 levels.
Sheesh. They weren't talking about worldwide revolution.
That's not what the Hamas charter says or the Houthi slogan which says "God Is Great, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam"
Not sure why the slogans of two extremist groups need to be taken as the sole meaning of the wordāneither one even mentions the word. Intifada has historically only referred to Palestineās resistance of Israelās occupation of their land and oppression of their people.
Except for the first two intifadas where heavy into the blow up people on busses and cafes and this ārevolutionā starts with raping women to death and kidnapping grandpa and killing kids at a music festival. You can see why that word is not meant to mean peace. But you knew that. Rape is not resistance.
Huh? Did you reply to the wrong person? Where did I ever say anything about peace? My first sentence literally agrees with the clarification that it implies violent attack.
>Globalize in this context would refer to global support of said revolution against Israel.
Broadly speaking, groups doing this tend to have a *really* hard time telling the difference between Israeli and jewish. Within Our Lifetime put out a map of jewish organizations in NYC, and when you mix that with "Globalize the Intifada" it really sounds like you are asking someone to bomb them.
You cannot use the word "intifada" without being aware that it's going to call to mind the 1st and 2nd intifadas. It is IMPOSSIBLE to overstate the impact of the 2nd intifada in particular on the Israeli consciousness and Israeli society. The 2nd intifada--the era of suicide bombers--is responsible more than anything else for the complete lack of trust Israelis have toward Palestinians. It (by design) destroyed the peace process and undermined any trust Israelis had in Palestinians. You can draw a direct line from the 2nd intifada to what people call the Israeli Occupation of Gaza, and to the Israelis ongoing attacks on Gaza today.
To then say that we should "globalize the intifada," or "There is only one solution, intifada revolution" or "Intifada until victory," knowing that historical context, is tantamount to calling for murder of Jews around the world. Whether that's the intended meaning of those slogans or not by the people who are chanting them, it is a totally reasonable interpretation by anyone--especially Jews and Israelis--who hear it.
It also completely ignores generational trauma that Jews have around historical violence at the hands of Muslims. Any attempts at justifying this is gaslighting Jews about thousands of years of violence against us.
As a Jew. I don't think we get to complain when our people are violating international law and norms in order to kill civilians. If anything our generational trauma means we ought to know better.
We're not complaining about the actions of the Israeli government. We're talking about people who ignore inter-generational trauma of Jews by saying things like "globalize the intifada," which equates to calling for the world-wide violence against Jews, regardless of how those Jews view the actions of the Israeli government.
Unless you understand what intifada actually means as a word. You are jumping to a conclusion that it's somehow antisemitic when it actually translates to uprising. A global uprising against oppressive colonization is what is meant, but people willfully conflate it with violence against Jews to justify a genocide of the Palestinian people.
People know exactly how that word has been used, and it's not just revolution. It's like saying that people shouldn't be offended if someone uses the swastika, because it's a Sanskrit symbol meaning "prosperity." It doesn't matter what the original meaning of the word is, because it's been used by terrorists to mean violence against non-Muslims, frequently Jews - you know, actual genocide. Just as you don't get to tell people if color what is/isn't racist, you don't get to tell Jews what is/isn't anti-Semitic.
It's nothing like a swastika. That's willful ignorance on your part. If Palestinians are hostile to Jews it is because their homes have been stolen and children bombed. Zionists are terrorists.
But I thought anti-Zionism doesn't equal anti-Semitism? Thanks for proving that it sometimes is by generalizing the actions of the Israeli government to all Jews.
I think it was the settlements in the West Bank and the refusal to remove them that killed the peace process, which was by design *as stated by multiple Israeli governments*. Electing the guys who supported killing Rabin probably didnāt help matters either
1st intifada was largely non violent on the Palestinian side. Also nobody cares about Israeli/Zionist feelings anymore. There are more important things (the ongoing genocide)
Cry more pleaseĀ
Lol great comeback loser
Nobody gives a *** about your feelingsĀ
Do you know what they call the Warsaw ghetto uprising in Arabic?
Hint: they use intifada there too :)
Hm letās play this game.
A final solution for Jews literally means finding a final solution to the problem of Jewish lack of statehood. Whatās the problem there. Iām puzzled.
For historical context the word intifada was used to describe systemic blowing up of buses full of civilians (children included ofc as is par for the course when it comes to Hamas and their ilk).
Bizarre straw man argument. The criticism of using a word thatās inextricably tied to a terror campaign is that it gives any observer with knowledge of how the word is used in actual fact the unmistakable understanding that you support terror as a means to end the occupation.
Your imagination about what āthose peopleā might otherwise support is entirely your own. But even if it somehow turned out to be true, has nothing to do with the question weāre discussing.
The DP has covered it:
[https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/penn-encampment-protest-college-green-palestine](https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/penn-encampment-protest-college-green-palestine)
[https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/encampment-100-hours-photo-essay](https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/encampment-100-hours-photo-essay)
The Al Qassam chant is relatively new, but we've seen and heard the word "intifada" used frequently during the post-October 7 protests.
> It's definitely very anti-Israel, but I think it's disingenuous to say it's purely or even mostly antisemitic--especially given the large number of Jews participating in the encampment and related events.
>
> Although I've been a little shocked by a couple of the chants I've heard and slogans I've seen on some signs, such as "Globalize the Intifada" and āAl Qassam make us proud, take another soldier down.ā
interesting point and counterpoint... just how much more would it take for you to change your mind on the point?
yes, that's the question, and honestly it's not meant to be an attack. it's just that your first and second paragraph are at odds, so what would tip you over?
and then, again, in curiosity, are you Jewish or Israeli? If not, can you see a Jew or Israeli looking at the same scenes you've observed and deciding differently?
I'm a parent not a student, so I'm just trying to understand more what is going on at Penn...
I am convinced that many--maybe most--of the students chanting about the intifada don't actually understand the implications of what they're saying. At the oldest, those students were in diapers during the 2nd intifada. They have no idea the profound effect it had on Jews and especially Israeli Jews. Just like that poll conducted by the Wall Street Journal that showed that most college students don't even know what river and what sea they're referring to when they chant "from the river to the sea".
There are a LOT of Jewish people participating in the encampment and the related protests on campus, several of whom I know personally, and they are not self-hating Jews. They're very proudly Jewish and very pro-Jewish. But they're also against the deaths of tens of thousands of people, particularly when they see those deaths happening in the name of the Jewish people.
I'm not Israeli or Jewish, and yes I can absolutely understand why Jews or Israelis would perceive the encampment differently. But I think that experience of historical attrocities--like the Holocaust and the Nakba--cause some people on both sides to view everything as black and white, and ignore the shades of gray.
That didn't quite answer your question. But in short, I would need to see more evidence than just some (understandably) emotionally charged college students chanting catchy slogans, following along with the crowd.
I'd say it's overall peaceful. The Al-Qassim stuff was wildly inappropriate.* There feels like an escalation/a desire to get arrested amongst the protestors. It's easy to walk past them without engaging, but you can hear them in the library (they're LOUD) which is annoying.
Some of the rhetoric is eye rolling ("why care about discomfort studying when people are DYING" or "I don't like eating because people are STARVING" which unfortunately people have been dying/starving across the world our whole lives). A lot of the kids aren't sure of what they're calling for, or what the words they are chanting mean.
The University moved U-Night to a different green space. IDK how they're going to handle everything else, like graduation. IDK if it will last that long - flyers got posted about trespassing statutes/ordinances.
A large group of the protestors are not students anywhere. Another chunk are Drexel and Temple students. Which I get, kind of - it's def not safe to protest outside at Temple - but the demands are for PENN to divest, so if they want to make change at their OWN university, they should go there.
The situation with knife guy is being exaggerated. Counter protesting has been minimal, although some of them are big weirdos (there was this evangelical pray for Israel dude today that wasn't great).
There was a moment while the Ben Franklin statute was being power washed (to remove antisemitic graffiti) where one of the organizers asked a police officer how soon they could have access to Ben back (he had been adorned with a keffiyeh/a lot of flag waving stuff was occurring on his base). The policeman said the university decided it was a no go, and the girl said it was sad, because the best "action shots" for TikTok were by the statue (???).
When the graffiti incident occured, the protestors immediately covered it up with a keffiyeh/umbrellas until the power washers came. They also insisted the graffiti was done by a false-flag operation. Idk. They haven't disavowed the Al-Qassim chants, though, or even acknowledged that they happened.
*Edit: I previously said the Al-Qassim chants were "not great" and a commenter below rightly pointed out that calling for death is a lot more than not great. I've updated the language to reflect that.
>A lot of the kids aren't sure of what they're calling for, or what the words they are chanting mean.
This is absolutely true. In particular I find the use of the word "intifada" in their chants and signs to be terrifying. These are not students who lived through the early 00s or who understand the historical context of that word with regard to Israel.
Or even what "Zionism" means. Someone can be against Netanyahu/war crimes while still believing that there should be a Jewish homeland. Idk. I understand that it's an extremely complicated and nuanced discussion that doesn't fit neatly into chants.
But yeah, the number of times I've been told "intifada just means shaking off" has disturbed me. There was also a "we don't want no two state, we want '48" which also seemed to miss some very important historical context.
It's also weird to be told I'm on the "wrong side of history for ignoring genocide" when heading into the library to study. Idk. I feel like I can impact more change by receiving my law degree and using it for something than by standing on some grass chanting about intifada, but what do I know?
But things are definitely chiller, and smaller, than Columbia, for which I am thankful for. There's this one police officer that kind of looks like Santa Claus who seems to really want to keep things from escalating. I really hope that there will be no violence, and respect the First Amendment right to protest. I just wish people knew what they were protesting FOR.
Intifada is a call to murder Jews.
Muslims are 2 billion and the worlds largest religion.
What is on US campuses is a very well funded arm of Muslim Brotherhood.
They cause chaos around the globe, this is their calling.
The money sent for "Aid to Palestine" is going toward this invasion across the world of Muslim Brotherhood.
The term "intifada" has existed for hundreds of years qbd has been used to describe uprisings in well over 10 different countries just in the last 100 years, Including well before israel existed and , in all the above instances, where there has been literally nothing to do with Jews, Israel or antisemitism.
It's terrifyingly self absorbed for israel or Jews to decide how to define an Arabic word rhat existed well before the nation and then ban its use, that's ridiculous
The term "intifada" in the context of an anti-Israel protest has some very heavy baggage and is heavily associated with the suicide bombers and the death and carnage we saw nightly on the news during the 2nd intifada. The protesters are not talking to an Arab audience, for whom the word may have other connotations. They're talking to an American and Israeli audience, and they know what it means to those people.
The fact that the word existed for a long time is a bad argument. The name Adolf is a perfectly fine name and has been around a long time, but you don't see anyone naming their child that anymore for some reason. The swastika (including the inverted swastika) is thousands of years old, but try putting one on your backpack and explaining that it's an ancient Sanskrit symbol when people complain about it.
Oh whew. Turns out we shouldnāt have been bothered by those dozens of suicide bombers during the 2nd intifada after all. It was just a plain old fashioned revolution.
I will say. If you are Israeli or have relatives who are Israeli, hearing people chant not for peace but for IDF soldiers to die is not ānot greatā. Itās bone chilling.
Hard for me to reconcile talk of micro aggression and protecting minorities with such insanely violent rhetoric being tolerated. Seems like misgenrdring someone is a worse offense than wishing for my relatives to die.
Honestly, the biggest issue is that some of the protestors seem to be calling for peace while others are calling for war.
Very confusing. I generally support the cause of a ceasefire but message discipline is... lacking to say the least?
I agree, I'm sorry about how casually I phrased that; that was completely inappropriate on my part. I apologize, and will edit to fix.
There's been apologists for the chant who say things like "all the IDF are evil" and "this is just to stop the genocide" and "that chant wasn't anti-Semetic, just anti-Zionist" while also claiming to be pro-peace.
There's also been weird stuff about "Jewish students don't have a right to be afraid, we aren't doing anything wrong" and "they keep trying to claim everything is anti-semetic!! It's not!!" That's also hard for to reconcile with the rest of the rhetoric. No one gets to tell someone how they are or are not allowed to feel about their own lived experiences. Idk. It's horrifying.
I wish I knew more about how the Holocaust started, how the movement built and spread, how people became so convinced they were on the right side of history that they turned on their own parents for not being fervent enough. I'm afraid, sometimes, of if that is where we are going. Not knowing history means being doomed to repeat it. Idk.
Muslims are 2 billion and the worlds largest religion.
What is on US campuses is a very well funded arm of Muslim Brotherhood.
They cause chaos around the globe, this is their calling.
The money sent for "Aid to Palestine" is going toward this invasion across the world of Muslim Brotherhood.
You are confused because this is about causing confusion.
It is an arm of a well funded global terrorist group.
as a temple student we also have relationships (at least *published* donors, meaning we have some sort of relationship w them) of companies that actively participate in supporting israel and so does drexel (from my knowledge). temple has not published any of their investments going *to* companies, though.
it's more effective to protest in a larger group where it is harder to identify the students by university, as if you are protesting alone at your own university, the likelihood of disciplinary action is higher-- that's what i get from it at least
as for drexel, even though the encampment is physically on pennās campus, weāve had tiny offshoots on our campus. thereās just a general sense of shared resources (idk if thats the right term lol) but a bunch of shared donors, shared/similar employers along with just how intertwined the daily operations of the two universities are makes it honestly a poor logistical decision to split the efforts/protests with such geographical proximity. When you add to that the fact that a lot of oncampus organizations for both of us are pretty connected in matters like this, it sort of starts to make sense why theres so many drexel students involved.
whether its right or wrong of us to be involved in penn divestment, thats not for me to decide just trying to explain why so many Drexel students are involved and present
Both sides of this issue are critical of the Penn administration, but I give Penn a lot of credit on how they've handled it so far--allowing college students to protest and counter-protest in a very public way, in a very visible part of campus, but also enforcing rules to limit disruption, violence, vandalism, harassment, etc. and trying to walk a very thin line to balance the needs of all sides, within reason. The encampment clearly violates several Penn policies, and IMO the University has actually been incredibly tolerant of its presence so far, particularly when they're under a lot of internal and external pressure to forcibly dismantle it.
I give a lot of credit to protesters on both sides of this issue as well, for not allowing things to devolve into chaos or violence. Considering what an emotional issue this is for people on all sides, it says a lot for our campus that things have stayed as civil as they have.
And it's very clear that the encampment was timed to be as disruptive as possible to some very important events on campus--Penn Relays, Hey Day, Alumni Day, and Graduation. There are a lot of board meetings and trustee-type meetings on campus right now for the various schools and centers, with some very wealthy and powerful donors/board members present. The protesters (and especially the organizers) are very aware of that, and want to disrupt those things in order to force Penn to act. They know that there is a chance Penn could cancel graduation for a class whose college experience at Penn was already adversely affected by the COVID lockdown, and now they're risking ruining their graduation as well.
If any random Penn student or group of Penn students just set up tents without prior permission on College Green, started hanging up banners, and chanting--even if they weren't part of a politically and emotionally fraught protest movement--they'd 100% be asked to leave--particularly when we're about to flood the campus with alumni, donors, parents, and graduating students. Even more so given how many NON-Penn people are involved in the encampment and other protests on campus. Penn has not done that so far, and they've given the encampment plenty of warning and opportunity to withdraw voluntarily to avoid academic or legal consequences.
The encampment is a form of civil disobedience. And I'm totally fine with non-violent civil disobedience. But civil disobedience, by its nature, has consequences. You don't break rules and laws without knowing that there will be an institutional response. Nobody is in that encampment who isn't expecting (or hoping) to get arrested. That's part of their goal. It's disingenuous to say, "We just want to protest."
If they just wanted to protest, to chant, to sing, to hang signs, to fellowship with like-minded protesters, they could have done that anywhere. They could have even said to Penn "We want to protest, but we don't want to be a disruptive presence, where on campus can we go?" And there's space in the west part of campus, or in Penn Park, or near the Penn Farm, etc.
Their GOAL is to disrupt, to be an eyesore. To get news coverage. To make it painful for Penn NOT to give into their demands. That's how you accomplish a political goal these days. That's how the donors did it who withdrew their donations or threatened to do so in response to the Palestine Writes festival and to the pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israel protests after Oct 7.
Letās hope not - totally unfair to the seniors and their families. USC already canceled their May 10th main stage graduation normally attended by 65k people.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/usc-cancels-main-stage-commencement-ceremony/ar-AA1nFz9V
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/usc-cancels-main-graduation-ceremony-amid-pro-palestinian-protests-on-campus/ar-AA1nFJbV
I feel for them and other people who might have cancelled graduations. They were the seniors who graduated at the beginning of COVID, so they didnāt get a high school graduation either.
drexel student but have a decent chunk of penn friends and regularly spend time at houston/huntsman/rodin.
the encampment has almost always felt extremely calm/quiet while Iāve walked by it. penn pd has cordoned off the area in front of van pelt. thereās tents, mats, posters and flag along with a large number of people, but the situation felt pretty calm, and even noticed some penn pd officers and protesters talking pretty normally.
as someone else mentioned, thereās definitely drexel students and faculty along with penn students, faculty and also people from temple, along with some local residents
also definitely appreciate the effort to increase knowledge and awareness about raw anecdotes instead of increasingly biased(understandably so) information from different sources
/u/JiveChicken00 I'm glad you asked, I asked in the megathread last week but no one is reading that anymore (perhaps it's time to delete it and create a new one)
As a Jewish student, I do find some of the chants very concerning. Recently, they have become very pro-Hamas. That being said, most of the protestors are peaceful and well-meaning.
Did anyone else witness this chant? Or is it just being reported? Genuinely not disbelieving it just surprised as vice was very non violent when I was there
Yes I can hear them from my house and they did chant that.
They also did a chant calling Jews āpiggiesā and saying they will āmake our lives shittyā.
Theyāve in general been getting more hostile with their language.
When the counter protest was happening the protestors were yelling about killing idf soldiers over Jews singing hatikvah.
Much more chill, peaceful, and approachable than what the university is trying to lead others to believe. The university is purposefully misleading and mischaracterizing the encampment to get it to disband and to get other students to stay away. Itās wrong.
My roommate has been staying at the encampment for a few days now, they said people can easily pass by or just watch and are obviously not part of it. It seems that the invisible barrier is if youāre on the grass or not. The grass is private property but the bricks are public. Also the more violent chants are from a few select people that to my understanding, most of the people in the encampment donāt agree with. Itās supposed to be a peaceful protest. Thereās a mix of penn students, Drexel students, probably some penn staff/alumni. Ik thereās some newbies and experienced people there. My roommate was talking with this one particular older gay man who had travelled the world participating in protests. Iām not sure if heās staff/alumni. Even he said that this is one of the most organized protests heās ever seen. They have tons of support and resources/donations. Lots of food, water, sunscreen, tents, etc. Most of the time, theyāre all just chilling, educating each other through āmeetingsā or ālecturesā, sending memes in a massive groupchat, but when talk of a counter protest, police, or admin starts, they get in order real fast. Thereās 3 main teams (red, yellow, green). Red is basically ready for the worst of the worst. Ready to be arrested and whatnot, although everyone is saying they wonāt be charged with anything as long as they listen to police. Yellow mostly helps pack up and move supplies if needed. Yellow and green are meant to be a soft barrier between red and police/admin, more so red and yellow have more time to organize and prepare.
"They have tons of support and resources/donations."
Money funneled into protests to create chaos in the US - this is where donations for gazans are going.
You need to take a deep dive into this bizarro world.
Yeah I mean I would definitely describe the encampment as entirely peaceful. I walk past there multiple times a day and study in VP every single day. Individuals that feel intimidated and harassed are usually zionists that equate anti-Israel sentiment as inherently anti-Semitic but as a Jew I canāt say I feel that way. Language like ālong live the intifadaā is chanted and can make Zionists on campus feel marginalized but that does not count as hate speech or violence in my personal opinion as it is a call for revolutionary change in the region, something I can emphasize with after decades of oppression and tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Gaza. If you remember the FFP protests and encampment in 2022 the level of unrest is probably analogous.
>Language like ālong live the intifadaā is chanted and can make Zionists on campus feel marginalized but that does not count as hate speech or violence in my personal opinion
As a Jew as well, I would strongly ask you to reconsider this. I have friends who lost loved ones in the intifadah and I can say with certainty that the violence largely fell on Israeli civilians trying to live their lives, and not the Israeli state that has illegally occupied Palestine for decades. They did nothing to promote peace or stability.
You can argue one way or the other whether the intifadahs were valid expressions of revolutionary sentiment despite a large amount of civilian deaths. But considering there is not currently an intifadah happening I would strongly consider calls for intifadah as calling for more violence against Jewish people, which is an escalation at this point.
Being Jewish doesn't equal being a Zionist, which you seem to agree with. But if all Jewish people who live in Israel, have family in Israel, or have been to Israel are valid targets of intifadah violence, I'd argue we've really just imported anti-Jewish violence back into the discourse with a linguistic trick. Especially since the groups waging intifadah often consider Jewish people anywhere in the world a valid target and "Globalize the Intifadah" has been a reoccurring theme.
Do some research on what the intifadas actually were. Saying Long live the intifada may not itself be violence as it is speech, but its certainly calling for and supporting violence.
And strapping on the one Palestinian invention that has been globalized-
the suicide bomb vest.
Let's not forget that Arafat encouraged his little girls to be part of the intifada and put bombing vests on, event though they were not strong men, the little girls were able to help kill the jews.
Edit: By his little girls - I don't mean his literal daughters. Arafat had one daughter much later in life with a woman 30 years his junior - she lives the life of a 100x millionaire in Malta with the palestinian's money. Her college graduation was not interrupted by the Muslim Brotherhood.
Completely separating it from all politics: itās mildly annoying right now but threatens the experiences of other students. Itās entirely peaceful as it is, but itās just kinda ugly and a bit disruptive to the vast majority of people trying to get through to class, but mostly non problematic. However, the real concern for me (totally ignoring the politics and messaging) is how it will affect end of year activities like graduation. Hey day is on Wednesday and typically occupies that spaceāI really doubt thatāll be gone for that. The graduation that the encampment is threatening is for the class that didnāt get a graduation because of Covid. This small group of people are messing with quintessential college experiences for a large number of others
I walk past the encampment every day. Nobody has spat on me or heckled me in any way. As long as nobody is engaging them l, they appear to be docile and passive.
I have seen a mostly quiet encampment. For the most part they've been not disrupting campus life. It feels like a lot of the reporting is overblowing the situation significantly, such that I wonder how myself and the reporters could be observing the same thing.
It's one of the most beautiful and uplifting things I've seen happen on this campus. Purely positive vibes emanating when I walk by. People relaxing, chatting, some workshop or programming going on. I've spent a good amount of time there and they're deeply committed to safety and community (this includes protecting each other from agitators/people intending to incite or cause disruption). Frequent reiteration of the importance of boundaries and safe conduct. A lot of the coverage is misleading asf. And the claims of antisemitism are only made by people who equate opposition to Zionism/Israel with opposition to Judaism at large (which is antisemitic in and of itself).
Either Palestine is a melting pot (your words) or it is a specific ethnicity that is being 'genocided???' which one is it?
The british were only there for 30 years after the muslim colonizers fell.
another 'useful idiot'
you are not really sure what you are protesting.
It looks like a bunch of ppl camping and having a party on campus instead of a state park. with boxes of pizzas being delivered.I wonder if they have classes. Someone commented that they look older than students. Maybe they're grads. The ptotest overload makes me care less. So i didn't really look. At some point, all this becomes a constant noise. What will happen when the semester ends?
Re intifada:
The term "intifada" has existed for hundreds of years qbd has been used to describe uprisings in well over 10 different countries just in the last 100 years, Including well before israel existed and , in all the above instances, where there has been literally nothing to do with Jews, Israel or antisemitism.
It's terrifyingly self absorbed for israel or Jews to decide how to define an Arabic word rhat existed well before the nation and then ban its use, that's ridiculous
I had a positive experience at the encampment. It was joyful in many ways and peaceful. The people seemed caring and openminded. The songs and speeches were powerful and made me emotional, in a hopeful way.
Unfortunately though a group of pro israeli counter protestors were not as nice to be around. I heard them calling the brown people terrorists and saying that they wanted to āsick the dogs on themā. Very very sad to see that. But the other parts of the encampment seem great and highly recommend you go listen to the programming if you can.
My husband is a student at Wharton and says it is safe as long as you are not visibly Jewish. Most of the campers are there as a social event and donāt care or know about I/P.
His summer employer (Wharton alum) told my husband that if the stuff that is anti jew doesnāt stop he wonāt be able to hire from there anymore.
This is misinformation. A large proportion of the encampment are Jews. They have had numerous rabbis and Jewish orgs come and speak, held antisemitism info sessions by prominent Jewish professors, and a Seder led by Jews in the encampment. Please don't comment without verifying what you're saying.
It's interesting that ppl down voted these. As a hiring manager, ivys no longer have that shiny name for me anymore. If there are hints of entitlement personalities, that's enough for me to not move forward. No one wants to bring a headache to work. That's the truth.
I recommend listening to something like It Could Happen Here (specifically the episodes about stopping Cop City) or Uprising; A Guide From Portland if you want to get a decent idea of what mass protests in general tend to be like. I wouldn't trust reddit for accurate information on these kinds of situations, but surprisingly most of the responses here have read as true to reality.
Yes! Bringing positivity and snacks is what i hear they need. Bring friends to show solidarity and maybe help by doing a clean up trash sweep is helpful. But most of all supporting w good vibes is a way to help.
If you were from "San Fran", you wouldn't call it "San Fran"
+ San Francisco
+ SF
+ And yes, even "Frisco" https://archive.ph/OR128 (lots of longtime natives, especially those from low income neighborhoods call it Frisco. Even Herb Caen eventually relented)
But never San Fran.
> Considering you are writing in British English
that's interesting, genuinely curious, why do you say so?
anything you're reading that into is probably my own idiosyncrasies
As an American, I have to disagree. I myself put the comma inside the quote. As far as Iām aware, thatās the proper way to do it, correct? That said, have you read a text or a comment here from your average American these days? The education system has absolutely failed when it comes to speaking/writing proper English.
i cant stand getting a text like this if I do I just generally donāt respond because it hurts my brain figuring out what the fuck there trying to say
3v3n w4rs3 wh3n u s33 th1s sh1t (although I havenāt seen this since the early 00s, save for tags for online gaming)
You mean as a person with dyslexia you disagree. You are correct that Commas always go before quotation marks in American English. Which is what I said. And it's actually one of the rare things in American English that doesn't have an exception
You've correctly identified why I refer to it as San Fran now. SF/San Francisco/Frisco = gone.
Encampments are a normal part of university life and getting groceries there.
I can say that I personally have had no issues walking past the encampment or talking to people in the encampment. If you're minding your own business and trying to get from point A to point B, it's pretty much fine. Maybe a little crowded to walk by on Locust/Woodland. I'm a bit of a hermit and don't interact with a lot of people though so š¤·āāļø
I also will say that I do feel slightly stressed by the attention this has drawn to campus - I worry about large numbers of people from outside the university coming to campus for this and I worry about the possibility of violence. There was just a man (counter protester?) who was escorted off campus for bringing knives. This is where most of my worries come from.
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I'm certain it wasn't the first time, considering the amount of literal shit I've seen by Irvine Auditorium (I think someone sleeps on the steam vents outside there)
What if you need to get to one of the areas that the encampment have blocked off?
Last I knew, there weren't any places that you can't access because of the encampment besides the green area directly in front of College Hall (it may have changed since I was last over that way, haven't been on campus since the last day of classes). If you needed to get into College Hall, there were barricades lining the walkway up to it that were keeping the encampment out of the walkway. If you needed to get to Van Pelt or Fisher Fine Arts, the walkways were open as well. Penn Police had essentially corralled the encampment to the green space. Like I said - could have changed since I was last around.
Havenāt been around in a while and will take your word for it. Was just curious. Had seen footage from UCLA and itās always a worry that a protest can turn into something else. Iām glad the UPenn one has stayed reasonable
It's impossible to walk down Locust in front of College Green and not be aware of the encampment, but it's very easy to walk past it without becoming part of it, without engaging on one side or the other. It's very quiet for long stretches of time, and then there are chants, or singing, or praying, or dancing. Some of the sounds coming from the camp seem hopeful and celebratory, other sounds seem very angry. It's really basically just a little island on campus in a very visible location, and most of campus isn't involved in it at all, and I don't think it's been affecting much of what's happening on campus overall. It's certainly an occasional topic of conversation on campus, but unless you're actually walking past it or you're an active supporter/detractor, it's mostly a case of out-of-sight, out-of-mind. They seem to be very welcoming to people on their side, and very suspicious and even slightly hostile to others. I've been out there quite a bit, and I haven't seen any violence or direct harassment of anyone walking by. The DP has done an excellent job so far of live blogging what's been going on, with any major developments as they happen, and they've been very good about stating facts without bias. There are clearly some older and very experienced protesters that are part of the group and likely leading/coordinating the encampment. It's unclear how many of the people in the encampment are actually Penn students, or even Penn faculty/staff. Maybe most of them? Maybe very few? There's really no way to know. It's definitely very anti-Israel, but I think it's disingenuous to say it's purely or even mostly antisemitic--especially given the large number of Jews participating in the encampment and related events. Although I've been a little shocked by a couple of the chants I've heard and slogans I've seen on some signs, such as "Globalize the Intifada" and āAl Qassam make us proud, take another soldier down.ā
> it's disingenuous to say it's purely or even mostly antisemitic Is it disingenuous to say that a very public encampment in the middle of on Ivy League university should not be even partly antisemitic? What would you write about the same encampment that was only "partly racist", still splitting hairs in that case? What percentage of racism would be OK with you.
There's always going to be an "element" at every one of these things. Some are false flags, some are just plain imbeciles looking for attention. Don't you think Ben Shapiro and his fans have expressed some anti-Arab sentiment as well?
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And Kristallnacht translates to Crystal Night in GermanĀ
ur point? or did you just wanna conflate it to nazi germany instead of actually taking time to read literature in which it is used? thought upenn students would be smarter.
The point is pretty obvious. I suspect you already understand it though.Ā
The point is that you canāt just take the literal translation in understanding the message of these chants. In a vacuum thereās nothing wrong with saying ārevolutionā in Arabic, but with greater context of what the intifada is, itās clear that itās calling for the global murder of Jews.
Ok, so Israeli Jews should deal with that. With their own money and weapons. Leave the United States out of it.
While itās true the connotation behind it usually implies violent revolution, I believe itās almost entirely used in the context of a Palestinian uprising against Israel. So not all Jews. Globalize in this context would refer to global support of said revolution against Israel.
so.... just murder SOME jews then?
They're only talking about 50% of the global Jewish population, which has not yet recovered to pre 1939 levels. Sheesh. They weren't talking about worldwide revolution.
That's not what the Hamas charter says or the Houthi slogan which says "God Is Great, Death to America, Death to Israel, Curse on the Jews, Victory to Islam"
Not sure why the slogans of two extremist groups need to be taken as the sole meaning of the wordāneither one even mentions the word. Intifada has historically only referred to Palestineās resistance of Israelās occupation of their land and oppression of their people.
And what form of resistance did that take? What constitutes an extremist group?
It took the form of violent resistance against Israel, the occupier, and not Jews across the globe, just like my original comment says.
Except for the first two intifadas where heavy into the blow up people on busses and cafes and this ārevolutionā starts with raping women to death and kidnapping grandpa and killing kids at a music festival. You can see why that word is not meant to mean peace. But you knew that. Rape is not resistance.
Huh? Did you reply to the wrong person? Where did I ever say anything about peace? My first sentence literally agrees with the clarification that it implies violent attack.
>Globalize in this context would refer to global support of said revolution against Israel. Broadly speaking, groups doing this tend to have a *really* hard time telling the difference between Israeli and jewish. Within Our Lifetime put out a map of jewish organizations in NYC, and when you mix that with "Globalize the Intifada" it really sounds like you are asking someone to bomb them.
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You cannot use the word "intifada" without being aware that it's going to call to mind the 1st and 2nd intifadas. It is IMPOSSIBLE to overstate the impact of the 2nd intifada in particular on the Israeli consciousness and Israeli society. The 2nd intifada--the era of suicide bombers--is responsible more than anything else for the complete lack of trust Israelis have toward Palestinians. It (by design) destroyed the peace process and undermined any trust Israelis had in Palestinians. You can draw a direct line from the 2nd intifada to what people call the Israeli Occupation of Gaza, and to the Israelis ongoing attacks on Gaza today. To then say that we should "globalize the intifada," or "There is only one solution, intifada revolution" or "Intifada until victory," knowing that historical context, is tantamount to calling for murder of Jews around the world. Whether that's the intended meaning of those slogans or not by the people who are chanting them, it is a totally reasonable interpretation by anyone--especially Jews and Israelis--who hear it.
It also completely ignores generational trauma that Jews have around historical violence at the hands of Muslims. Any attempts at justifying this is gaslighting Jews about thousands of years of violence against us.
As a Jew. I don't think we get to complain when our people are violating international law and norms in order to kill civilians. If anything our generational trauma means we ought to know better.
We're not complaining about the actions of the Israeli government. We're talking about people who ignore inter-generational trauma of Jews by saying things like "globalize the intifada," which equates to calling for the world-wide violence against Jews, regardless of how those Jews view the actions of the Israeli government.
Unless you understand what intifada actually means as a word. You are jumping to a conclusion that it's somehow antisemitic when it actually translates to uprising. A global uprising against oppressive colonization is what is meant, but people willfully conflate it with violence against Jews to justify a genocide of the Palestinian people.
People know exactly how that word has been used, and it's not just revolution. It's like saying that people shouldn't be offended if someone uses the swastika, because it's a Sanskrit symbol meaning "prosperity." It doesn't matter what the original meaning of the word is, because it's been used by terrorists to mean violence against non-Muslims, frequently Jews - you know, actual genocide. Just as you don't get to tell people if color what is/isn't racist, you don't get to tell Jews what is/isn't anti-Semitic.
It's nothing like a swastika. That's willful ignorance on your part. If Palestinians are hostile to Jews it is because their homes have been stolen and children bombed. Zionists are terrorists.
But I thought anti-Zionism doesn't equal anti-Semitism? Thanks for proving that it sometimes is by generalizing the actions of the Israeli government to all Jews.
Ty
No it is not
Cry more
I think it was the settlements in the West Bank and the refusal to remove them that killed the peace process, which was by design *as stated by multiple Israeli governments*. Electing the guys who supported killing Rabin probably didnāt help matters either
Oh thereās no question that there were people on both sides who wanted to stop the peace process.
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No thatās not ok to even say.
1st intifada was largely non violent on the Palestinian side. Also nobody cares about Israeli/Zionist feelings anymore. There are more important things (the ongoing genocide) Cry more pleaseĀ
Don't you have a Proud Boys meeting you need to leave your mother's basement to get to?
Lol great comeback loser Nobody gives a *** about your feelingsĀ Do you know what they call the Warsaw ghetto uprising in Arabic? Hint: they use intifada there too :)
Hm letās play this game. A final solution for Jews literally means finding a final solution to the problem of Jewish lack of statehood. Whatās the problem there. Iām puzzled.
No the final solution for the Jews refers to Hitlers Final Solution and which is the extermination of the Jewish people
Woosh
WOOSH is right. But the scary thing is the number of people who donāt know what the final solution originally refers to.
For historical context the word intifada was used to describe systemic blowing up of buses full of civilians (children included ofc as is par for the course when it comes to Hamas and their ilk).
same folks who are angry about the word intifada are also angry at ACAB or defund the police.
Bizarre straw man argument. The criticism of using a word thatās inextricably tied to a terror campaign is that it gives any observer with knowledge of how the word is used in actual fact the unmistakable understanding that you support terror as a means to end the occupation. Your imagination about what āthose peopleā might otherwise support is entirely your own. But even if it somehow turned out to be true, has nothing to do with the question weāre discussing.
ExactlyĀ
the al qassam chant was definitely shocking tho
I haven't heard those slogans actually! What day was this?
The DP has covered it: [https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/penn-encampment-protest-college-green-palestine](https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/penn-encampment-protest-college-green-palestine) [https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/encampment-100-hours-photo-essay](https://www.thedp.com/article/2024/04/encampment-100-hours-photo-essay) The Al Qassam chant is relatively new, but we've seen and heard the word "intifada" used frequently during the post-October 7 protests.
> It's definitely very anti-Israel, but I think it's disingenuous to say it's purely or even mostly antisemitic--especially given the large number of Jews participating in the encampment and related events. > > Although I've been a little shocked by a couple of the chants I've heard and slogans I've seen on some signs, such as "Globalize the Intifada" and āAl Qassam make us proud, take another soldier down.ā interesting point and counterpoint... just how much more would it take for you to change your mind on the point?
I'm not sure I understand the question. You're asking how much evidence I would need to be convinced that the encampment is, in fact, antisemitic?
yes, that's the question, and honestly it's not meant to be an attack. it's just that your first and second paragraph are at odds, so what would tip you over? and then, again, in curiosity, are you Jewish or Israeli? If not, can you see a Jew or Israeli looking at the same scenes you've observed and deciding differently? I'm a parent not a student, so I'm just trying to understand more what is going on at Penn...
I am convinced that many--maybe most--of the students chanting about the intifada don't actually understand the implications of what they're saying. At the oldest, those students were in diapers during the 2nd intifada. They have no idea the profound effect it had on Jews and especially Israeli Jews. Just like that poll conducted by the Wall Street Journal that showed that most college students don't even know what river and what sea they're referring to when they chant "from the river to the sea". There are a LOT of Jewish people participating in the encampment and the related protests on campus, several of whom I know personally, and they are not self-hating Jews. They're very proudly Jewish and very pro-Jewish. But they're also against the deaths of tens of thousands of people, particularly when they see those deaths happening in the name of the Jewish people. I'm not Israeli or Jewish, and yes I can absolutely understand why Jews or Israelis would perceive the encampment differently. But I think that experience of historical attrocities--like the Holocaust and the Nakba--cause some people on both sides to view everything as black and white, and ignore the shades of gray.
That didn't quite answer your question. But in short, I would need to see more evidence than just some (understandably) emotionally charged college students chanting catchy slogans, following along with the crowd.
I'd say it's overall peaceful. The Al-Qassim stuff was wildly inappropriate.* There feels like an escalation/a desire to get arrested amongst the protestors. It's easy to walk past them without engaging, but you can hear them in the library (they're LOUD) which is annoying. Some of the rhetoric is eye rolling ("why care about discomfort studying when people are DYING" or "I don't like eating because people are STARVING" which unfortunately people have been dying/starving across the world our whole lives). A lot of the kids aren't sure of what they're calling for, or what the words they are chanting mean. The University moved U-Night to a different green space. IDK how they're going to handle everything else, like graduation. IDK if it will last that long - flyers got posted about trespassing statutes/ordinances. A large group of the protestors are not students anywhere. Another chunk are Drexel and Temple students. Which I get, kind of - it's def not safe to protest outside at Temple - but the demands are for PENN to divest, so if they want to make change at their OWN university, they should go there. The situation with knife guy is being exaggerated. Counter protesting has been minimal, although some of them are big weirdos (there was this evangelical pray for Israel dude today that wasn't great). There was a moment while the Ben Franklin statute was being power washed (to remove antisemitic graffiti) where one of the organizers asked a police officer how soon they could have access to Ben back (he had been adorned with a keffiyeh/a lot of flag waving stuff was occurring on his base). The policeman said the university decided it was a no go, and the girl said it was sad, because the best "action shots" for TikTok were by the statue (???). When the graffiti incident occured, the protestors immediately covered it up with a keffiyeh/umbrellas until the power washers came. They also insisted the graffiti was done by a false-flag operation. Idk. They haven't disavowed the Al-Qassim chants, though, or even acknowledged that they happened. *Edit: I previously said the Al-Qassim chants were "not great" and a commenter below rightly pointed out that calling for death is a lot more than not great. I've updated the language to reflect that.
>A lot of the kids aren't sure of what they're calling for, or what the words they are chanting mean. This is absolutely true. In particular I find the use of the word "intifada" in their chants and signs to be terrifying. These are not students who lived through the early 00s or who understand the historical context of that word with regard to Israel.
Or even what "Zionism" means. Someone can be against Netanyahu/war crimes while still believing that there should be a Jewish homeland. Idk. I understand that it's an extremely complicated and nuanced discussion that doesn't fit neatly into chants. But yeah, the number of times I've been told "intifada just means shaking off" has disturbed me. There was also a "we don't want no two state, we want '48" which also seemed to miss some very important historical context. It's also weird to be told I'm on the "wrong side of history for ignoring genocide" when heading into the library to study. Idk. I feel like I can impact more change by receiving my law degree and using it for something than by standing on some grass chanting about intifada, but what do I know? But things are definitely chiller, and smaller, than Columbia, for which I am thankful for. There's this one police officer that kind of looks like Santa Claus who seems to really want to keep things from escalating. I really hope that there will be no violence, and respect the First Amendment right to protest. I just wish people knew what they were protesting FOR.
Intifada is a call to murder Jews. Muslims are 2 billion and the worlds largest religion. What is on US campuses is a very well funded arm of Muslim Brotherhood. They cause chaos around the globe, this is their calling. The money sent for "Aid to Palestine" is going toward this invasion across the world of Muslim Brotherhood.
The term "intifada" has existed for hundreds of years qbd has been used to describe uprisings in well over 10 different countries just in the last 100 years, Including well before israel existed and , in all the above instances, where there has been literally nothing to do with Jews, Israel or antisemitism. It's terrifyingly self absorbed for israel or Jews to decide how to define an Arabic word rhat existed well before the nation and then ban its use, that's ridiculous
The term "intifada" in the context of an anti-Israel protest has some very heavy baggage and is heavily associated with the suicide bombers and the death and carnage we saw nightly on the news during the 2nd intifada. The protesters are not talking to an Arab audience, for whom the word may have other connotations. They're talking to an American and Israeli audience, and they know what it means to those people. The fact that the word existed for a long time is a bad argument. The name Adolf is a perfectly fine name and has been around a long time, but you don't see anyone naming their child that anymore for some reason. The swastika (including the inverted swastika) is thousands of years old, but try putting one on your backpack and explaining that it's an ancient Sanskrit symbol when people complain about it.
Intifada just means revolution doesn't it?
Oh whew. Turns out we shouldnāt have been bothered by those dozens of suicide bombers during the 2nd intifada after all. It was just a plain old fashioned revolution.
I will say. If you are Israeli or have relatives who are Israeli, hearing people chant not for peace but for IDF soldiers to die is not ānot greatā. Itās bone chilling. Hard for me to reconcile talk of micro aggression and protecting minorities with such insanely violent rhetoric being tolerated. Seems like misgenrdring someone is a worse offense than wishing for my relatives to die.
Honestly, the biggest issue is that some of the protestors seem to be calling for peace while others are calling for war. Very confusing. I generally support the cause of a ceasefire but message discipline is... lacking to say the least?
They seem to support duality to the extent in which they support a dual state solution
I agree, I'm sorry about how casually I phrased that; that was completely inappropriate on my part. I apologize, and will edit to fix. There's been apologists for the chant who say things like "all the IDF are evil" and "this is just to stop the genocide" and "that chant wasn't anti-Semetic, just anti-Zionist" while also claiming to be pro-peace. There's also been weird stuff about "Jewish students don't have a right to be afraid, we aren't doing anything wrong" and "they keep trying to claim everything is anti-semetic!! It's not!!" That's also hard for to reconcile with the rest of the rhetoric. No one gets to tell someone how they are or are not allowed to feel about their own lived experiences. Idk. It's horrifying. I wish I knew more about how the Holocaust started, how the movement built and spread, how people became so convinced they were on the right side of history that they turned on their own parents for not being fervent enough. I'm afraid, sometimes, of if that is where we are going. Not knowing history means being doomed to repeat it. Idk.
Youāre a good man (or woman)
Muslims are 2 billion and the worlds largest religion. What is on US campuses is a very well funded arm of Muslim Brotherhood. They cause chaos around the globe, this is their calling. The money sent for "Aid to Palestine" is going toward this invasion across the world of Muslim Brotherhood. You are confused because this is about causing confusion. It is an arm of a well funded global terrorist group.
as a temple student we also have relationships (at least *published* donors, meaning we have some sort of relationship w them) of companies that actively participate in supporting israel and so does drexel (from my knowledge). temple has not published any of their investments going *to* companies, though. it's more effective to protest in a larger group where it is harder to identify the students by university, as if you are protesting alone at your own university, the likelihood of disciplinary action is higher-- that's what i get from it at least
as for drexel, even though the encampment is physically on pennās campus, weāve had tiny offshoots on our campus. thereās just a general sense of shared resources (idk if thats the right term lol) but a bunch of shared donors, shared/similar employers along with just how intertwined the daily operations of the two universities are makes it honestly a poor logistical decision to split the efforts/protests with such geographical proximity. When you add to that the fact that a lot of oncampus organizations for both of us are pretty connected in matters like this, it sort of starts to make sense why theres so many drexel students involved. whether its right or wrong of us to be involved in penn divestment, thats not for me to decide just trying to explain why so many Drexel students are involved and present
Both sides of this issue are critical of the Penn administration, but I give Penn a lot of credit on how they've handled it so far--allowing college students to protest and counter-protest in a very public way, in a very visible part of campus, but also enforcing rules to limit disruption, violence, vandalism, harassment, etc. and trying to walk a very thin line to balance the needs of all sides, within reason. The encampment clearly violates several Penn policies, and IMO the University has actually been incredibly tolerant of its presence so far, particularly when they're under a lot of internal and external pressure to forcibly dismantle it. I give a lot of credit to protesters on both sides of this issue as well, for not allowing things to devolve into chaos or violence. Considering what an emotional issue this is for people on all sides, it says a lot for our campus that things have stayed as civil as they have. And it's very clear that the encampment was timed to be as disruptive as possible to some very important events on campus--Penn Relays, Hey Day, Alumni Day, and Graduation. There are a lot of board meetings and trustee-type meetings on campus right now for the various schools and centers, with some very wealthy and powerful donors/board members present. The protesters (and especially the organizers) are very aware of that, and want to disrupt those things in order to force Penn to act. They know that there is a chance Penn could cancel graduation for a class whose college experience at Penn was already adversely affected by the COVID lockdown, and now they're risking ruining their graduation as well. If any random Penn student or group of Penn students just set up tents without prior permission on College Green, started hanging up banners, and chanting--even if they weren't part of a politically and emotionally fraught protest movement--they'd 100% be asked to leave--particularly when we're about to flood the campus with alumni, donors, parents, and graduating students. Even more so given how many NON-Penn people are involved in the encampment and other protests on campus. Penn has not done that so far, and they've given the encampment plenty of warning and opportunity to withdraw voluntarily to avoid academic or legal consequences. The encampment is a form of civil disobedience. And I'm totally fine with non-violent civil disobedience. But civil disobedience, by its nature, has consequences. You don't break rules and laws without knowing that there will be an institutional response. Nobody is in that encampment who isn't expecting (or hoping) to get arrested. That's part of their goal. It's disingenuous to say, "We just want to protest." If they just wanted to protest, to chant, to sing, to hang signs, to fellowship with like-minded protesters, they could have done that anywhere. They could have even said to Penn "We want to protest, but we don't want to be a disruptive presence, where on campus can we go?" And there's space in the west part of campus, or in Penn Park, or near the Penn Farm, etc. Their GOAL is to disrupt, to be an eyesore. To get news coverage. To make it painful for Penn NOT to give into their demands. That's how you accomplish a political goal these days. That's how the donors did it who withdrew their donations or threatened to do so in response to the Palestine Writes festival and to the pro-Palestinian/Anti-Israel protests after Oct 7.
This is very well written, kudos
Insanly level headed take. Thank you
Issue is it may cancel graduation.
Letās hope not - totally unfair to the seniors and their families. USC already canceled their May 10th main stage graduation normally attended by 65k people. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/usc-cancels-main-stage-commencement-ceremony/ar-AA1nFz9V https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/usc-cancels-main-graduation-ceremony-amid-pro-palestinian-protests-on-campus/ar-AA1nFJbV
I feel for them and other people who might have cancelled graduations. They were the seniors who graduated at the beginning of COVID, so they didnāt get a high school graduation either.
drexel student but have a decent chunk of penn friends and regularly spend time at houston/huntsman/rodin. the encampment has almost always felt extremely calm/quiet while Iāve walked by it. penn pd has cordoned off the area in front of van pelt. thereās tents, mats, posters and flag along with a large number of people, but the situation felt pretty calm, and even noticed some penn pd officers and protesters talking pretty normally. as someone else mentioned, thereās definitely drexel students and faculty along with penn students, faculty and also people from temple, along with some local residents
also definitely appreciate the effort to increase knowledge and awareness about raw anecdotes instead of increasingly biased(understandably so) information from different sources
/u/JiveChicken00 I'm glad you asked, I asked in the megathread last week but no one is reading that anymore (perhaps it's time to delete it and create a new one)
Well, not DELETE it, please.
As a Jewish student, I do find some of the chants very concerning. Recently, they have become very pro-Hamas. That being said, most of the protestors are peaceful and well-meaning.
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Did anyone else witness this chant? Or is it just being reported? Genuinely not disbelieving it just surprised as vice was very non violent when I was there
Yes I can hear them from my house and they did chant that. They also did a chant calling Jews āpiggiesā and saying they will āmake our lives shittyā. Theyāve in general been getting more hostile with their language. When the counter protest was happening the protestors were yelling about killing idf soldiers over Jews singing hatikvah.
you are genuinely gaslighting - that is not a question.
what kind of chants do you consider pro-hamas? genuinely curious as iām not sure what theyāve been chanting
āAl-Qassam, make us proud, take another soldier down.ā (Al-Qassam is a military wing of Hamas)
Insane. Classic peace demonstration content
So peaceful. Bigly peaceful.
Its quiet often and hasn't disrupted anything when I walk by it. There are legal observers and police standing by.
Much more chill, peaceful, and approachable than what the university is trying to lead others to believe. The university is purposefully misleading and mischaracterizing the encampment to get it to disband and to get other students to stay away. Itās wrong.
My roommate has been staying at the encampment for a few days now, they said people can easily pass by or just watch and are obviously not part of it. It seems that the invisible barrier is if youāre on the grass or not. The grass is private property but the bricks are public. Also the more violent chants are from a few select people that to my understanding, most of the people in the encampment donāt agree with. Itās supposed to be a peaceful protest. Thereās a mix of penn students, Drexel students, probably some penn staff/alumni. Ik thereās some newbies and experienced people there. My roommate was talking with this one particular older gay man who had travelled the world participating in protests. Iām not sure if heās staff/alumni. Even he said that this is one of the most organized protests heās ever seen. They have tons of support and resources/donations. Lots of food, water, sunscreen, tents, etc. Most of the time, theyāre all just chilling, educating each other through āmeetingsā or ālecturesā, sending memes in a massive groupchat, but when talk of a counter protest, police, or admin starts, they get in order real fast. Thereās 3 main teams (red, yellow, green). Red is basically ready for the worst of the worst. Ready to be arrested and whatnot, although everyone is saying they wonāt be charged with anything as long as they listen to police. Yellow mostly helps pack up and move supplies if needed. Yellow and green are meant to be a soft barrier between red and police/admin, more so red and yellow have more time to organize and prepare.
"They have tons of support and resources/donations." Money funneled into protests to create chaos in the US - this is where donations for gazans are going. You need to take a deep dive into this bizarro world.
Yeah I mean I would definitely describe the encampment as entirely peaceful. I walk past there multiple times a day and study in VP every single day. Individuals that feel intimidated and harassed are usually zionists that equate anti-Israel sentiment as inherently anti-Semitic but as a Jew I canāt say I feel that way. Language like ālong live the intifadaā is chanted and can make Zionists on campus feel marginalized but that does not count as hate speech or violence in my personal opinion as it is a call for revolutionary change in the region, something I can emphasize with after decades of oppression and tens of thousands of civilian deaths in Gaza. If you remember the FFP protests and encampment in 2022 the level of unrest is probably analogous.
>Language like ālong live the intifadaā is chanted and can make Zionists on campus feel marginalized but that does not count as hate speech or violence in my personal opinion As a Jew as well, I would strongly ask you to reconsider this. I have friends who lost loved ones in the intifadah and I can say with certainty that the violence largely fell on Israeli civilians trying to live their lives, and not the Israeli state that has illegally occupied Palestine for decades. They did nothing to promote peace or stability. You can argue one way or the other whether the intifadahs were valid expressions of revolutionary sentiment despite a large amount of civilian deaths. But considering there is not currently an intifadah happening I would strongly consider calls for intifadah as calling for more violence against Jewish people, which is an escalation at this point. Being Jewish doesn't equal being a Zionist, which you seem to agree with. But if all Jewish people who live in Israel, have family in Israel, or have been to Israel are valid targets of intifadah violence, I'd argue we've really just imported anti-Jewish violence back into the discourse with a linguistic trick. Especially since the groups waging intifadah often consider Jewish people anywhere in the world a valid target and "Globalize the Intifadah" has been a reoccurring theme.
Do some research on what the intifadas actually were. Saying Long live the intifada may not itself be violence as it is speech, but its certainly calling for and supporting violence.
Basically means blowing up buses and stabbing unsuspecting bystanders.
And strapping on the one Palestinian invention that has been globalized- the suicide bomb vest. Let's not forget that Arafat encouraged his little girls to be part of the intifada and put bombing vests on, event though they were not strong men, the little girls were able to help kill the jews. Edit: By his little girls - I don't mean his literal daughters. Arafat had one daughter much later in life with a woman 30 years his junior - she lives the life of a 100x millionaire in Malta with the palestinian's money. Her college graduation was not interrupted by the Muslim Brotherhood.
And people think Arafat was a Palestinian
So as a Jew, marginalizing Jews is OK with you? Check yourself. The same thing happened in Nazi Germany. Check yourself again.
Completely separating it from all politics: itās mildly annoying right now but threatens the experiences of other students. Itās entirely peaceful as it is, but itās just kinda ugly and a bit disruptive to the vast majority of people trying to get through to class, but mostly non problematic. However, the real concern for me (totally ignoring the politics and messaging) is how it will affect end of year activities like graduation. Hey day is on Wednesday and typically occupies that spaceāI really doubt thatāll be gone for that. The graduation that the encampment is threatening is for the class that didnāt get a graduation because of Covid. This small group of people are messing with quintessential college experiences for a large number of others
Most donāt appear to be Penn students
If you say this because they look old, there are lots of grad students there too
Why do you think so?
Because itās near finals week.
Fair point :)
I walk past the encampment every day. Nobody has spat on me or heckled me in any way. As long as nobody is engaging them l, they appear to be docile and passive.
I have seen a mostly quiet encampment. For the most part they've been not disrupting campus life. It feels like a lot of the reporting is overblowing the situation significantly, such that I wonder how myself and the reporters could be observing the same thing.
I thought they were going to close down the encampment??
It's one of the most beautiful and uplifting things I've seen happen on this campus. Purely positive vibes emanating when I walk by. People relaxing, chatting, some workshop or programming going on. I've spent a good amount of time there and they're deeply committed to safety and community (this includes protecting each other from agitators/people intending to incite or cause disruption). Frequent reiteration of the importance of boundaries and safe conduct. A lot of the coverage is misleading asf. And the claims of antisemitism are only made by people who equate opposition to Zionism/Israel with opposition to Judaism at large (which is antisemitic in and of itself).
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Itās statements like this one that give Jews a bad name and exacerbate antisemitism. Israelās crimes has nothing to do with Judaism or Jews
The lands of Palestine had been a religious melting pot until the creation of Israel in 1948.
sure, but depending on who was ruling, Christians and Jews did not have equal rights (i.e., during the Ottoman Empire).
BS. It was the ottoman muslim empire prior to the establishment of Israel. Israel is multiethnic, multireligious, multicolored country.
I see you have never heard of the UK
Either Palestine is a melting pot (your words) or it is a specific ethnicity that is being 'genocided???' which one is it? The british were only there for 30 years after the muslim colonizers fell. another 'useful idiot' you are not really sure what you are protesting.
How do you feel about this statement, āAmerica is a Christian nationā
It looks like a bunch of ppl camping and having a party on campus instead of a state park. with boxes of pizzas being delivered.I wonder if they have classes. Someone commented that they look older than students. Maybe they're grads. The ptotest overload makes me care less. So i didn't really look. At some point, all this becomes a constant noise. What will happen when the semester ends?
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My understanding is that it's on College Green in front of College Hall, around and near the sitting statue of Ben Franklin.
The button was damaged, not painted, or had signs hung on it but had words carved into it.
That is unfortunate, if so.
Re intifada: The term "intifada" has existed for hundreds of years qbd has been used to describe uprisings in well over 10 different countries just in the last 100 years, Including well before israel existed and , in all the above instances, where there has been literally nothing to do with Jews, Israel or antisemitism. It's terrifyingly self absorbed for israel or Jews to decide how to define an Arabic word rhat existed well before the nation and then ban its use, that's ridiculous
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Bass Pro Shop is a nice touch :)
I had a positive experience at the encampment. It was joyful in many ways and peaceful. The people seemed caring and openminded. The songs and speeches were powerful and made me emotional, in a hopeful way. Unfortunately though a group of pro israeli counter protestors were not as nice to be around. I heard them calling the brown people terrorists and saying that they wanted to āsick the dogs on themā. Very very sad to see that. But the other parts of the encampment seem great and highly recommend you go listen to the programming if you can.
My husband is a student at Wharton and says it is safe as long as you are not visibly Jewish. Most of the campers are there as a social event and donāt care or know about I/P. His summer employer (Wharton alum) told my husband that if the stuff that is anti jew doesnāt stop he wonāt be able to hire from there anymore.
This is misinformation. A large proportion of the encampment are Jews. They have had numerous rabbis and Jewish orgs come and speak, held antisemitism info sessions by prominent Jewish professors, and a Seder led by Jews in the encampment. Please don't comment without verifying what you're saying.
getting gaslit by jew haters
so, not safe for Jews. Got it.
Iāve also heard that a lot of companies wonāt be hiring from Penn, Columbia, etc
It's interesting that ppl down voted these. As a hiring manager, ivys no longer have that shiny name for me anymore. If there are hints of entitlement personalities, that's enough for me to not move forward. No one wants to bring a headache to work. That's the truth.
Thatās what Iāve heard too. I didnāt realize the truth would be so offensive to people lol
I recommend listening to something like It Could Happen Here (specifically the episodes about stopping Cop City) or Uprising; A Guide From Portland if you want to get a decent idea of what mass protests in general tend to be like. I wouldn't trust reddit for accurate information on these kinds of situations, but surprisingly most of the responses here have read as true to reality.
Gonna expand on this post and ask a question, but is there anyway to help out? I'm a Drexel student, and I would love to help in any way that I can :)
Yes! Bringing positivity and snacks is what i hear they need. Bring friends to show solidarity and maybe help by doing a clean up trash sweep is helpful. But most of all supporting w good vibes is a way to help.
Thank you so much! Heading over there rn to drop off some snacks. Appreciate your help!
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Bro you donāt even go here lmao
Bro it comes up on my feed.
In San Fran... walking by encampments is a normal day.
If you were from "San Fran", you wouldn't call it "San Fran" + San Francisco + SF + And yes, even "Frisco" https://archive.ph/OR128 (lots of longtime natives, especially those from low income neighborhoods call it Frisco. Even Herb Caen eventually relented) But never San Fran.
Considering you are writing in British English, I find it pretty interesting that you are spitting insight about American colloquolisms.
> Considering you are writing in British English that's interesting, genuinely curious, why do you say so? anything you're reading that into is probably my own idiosyncrasies
Pretty rare for Americans to put commas after quotes.
As an American, I have to disagree. I myself put the comma inside the quote. As far as Iām aware, thatās the proper way to do it, correct? That said, have you read a text or a comment here from your average American these days? The education system has absolutely failed when it comes to speaking/writing proper English. i cant stand getting a text like this if I do I just generally donāt respond because it hurts my brain figuring out what the fuck there trying to say 3v3n w4rs3 wh3n u s33 th1s sh1t (although I havenāt seen this since the early 00s, save for tags for online gaming)
You mean as a person with dyslexia you disagree. You are correct that Commas always go before quotation marks in American English. Which is what I said. And it's actually one of the rare things in American English that doesn't have an exception
oh, that's true, well what you're seeing is probably just a typo or my being lazy
You've correctly identified why I refer to it as San Fran now. SF/San Francisco/Frisco = gone. Encampments are a normal part of university life and getting groceries there.