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> # [Russian mercenary boss says Moscow's war in Ukraine based on lies](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/Founder of Wagner private mercenary group Yevgeny Prigozhin leaves a cemetery before the funeral of Russian military blogger Maxim Fomin widely known by the name of Vladlen Tatarsky, who was recently killed in a bomb attack in a St Petersburg cafe, in Moscow, Russia, April 8, 2023. REUTERS/Yulia Morozova/File Photo)
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>
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> - Prigozhin takes feud with top brass to new level
> - Accuses it of deceiving Putin over Ukraine war
> - Says war was about army chief's vanity and personal glory
> - Says oligarchic ruling clan wanted to enrich itself
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> LONDON, June 23 (Reuters) - Russian mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin said on Friday that the official Kremlin-backed version of why Moscow invaded Ukraine was based on lies concocted by his perennial adversary - the army's top brass.
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> Prigozhin has for months been accusing Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Russia's top general, Valery Gerasimov, of rank incompetence, but on Friday he for the first time rejected Russia's core justifications for invading Ukraine on Feb. 24 last year in what it calls a "special military operation".
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> "... the Defence Ministry is trying to deceive society and the president and tell us a story about how there was crazy aggression from Ukraine and that they were planning to attack us with the whole of NATO," Prigozhin said in a video clip released on Telegram by his press service, calling the official version "a beautiful story".
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> "The special operation was started for different reasons," he said. "The war was needed ... so that Shoigu could become a marshal ... so that he could get a second 'Hero' [of Russia] medal. The war wasn't needed to demilitarise or denazify Ukraine."
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> He also said the war had been needed to acquire "material assets" to divide among the ruling elite.
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> Prigozhin portrays his Wagner private militia, which spearheaded the capture of the city of Bakhmut last month, as Russia's most effective fighting force, and has enjoyed unusual freedom to publicly criticise Moscow, albeit not President Vladimir Putin, on whose support he ultimately depends.
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> Yet his latest assertion runs directly counter to the rationale for the war espoused by Putin, who said when sending his armed forces into Ukraine that it was to demilitarise and denazify a country that posed a threat to Russia.
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> The Kremlin leader casts the conflict as an existential struggle against a Western alliance that wants to use Ukraine as a platform to destroy Russia.
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> There was no immediate response from the Defence Ministry, which has ignored previous complaints from Prigozhin, in public at least. Nor was there any immediate reaction from the Kremlin, which has declined in the past to comment on Prigozhin's outbursts.
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> Reporting by Andrew Osborn; Editing by Kevin Liffey
>
> Our Standards: [The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.](https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en/about-us/trust-principles.html)
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Tecnhically true, if all weapons come from the west, it means Ukraine would be turned essentially into a client state, so Ukraine itself would be "demilitarised". It's propaganda of course, but the rhetoric is right
Seems like he is playing his cards to try and end up as the future President if Putin is ousted. Playing the role of Julius Caesar trying to get the masses to like him so he has a democratic mandate to rule and foreign leaders to prefer him instead of the ruling class. Walking a thin line if the war ends in Putin staying in though, they can't afford to exile him now, they would crumble, but once the war is over he may find himself on the wrong side of the politics of the Kremlin.
Becomes mysteriously sick after tea with Putin. He wakes in the hospital and falls out a 9th story window in a daze; he lands on his sidearm, which is accidentally discharged nine times to the back of the head. Death ruled accidental.
You have that backwards, Prigozhin is the man who serves Putin tea: https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/01/15/prigozhin4-1-15-19-ap_18255222439605_custom-d3da60fccccbc49157a2b2d182d74ad132e45f81-s900-c85.webp
Prigozhin isn't the man who waits for the knock at the door. Prigozhin is the one who knocks. Thats why Putin is in crisis mode right now.
You're very close. Notice his wording carefully: he accuses the top army brass of deceiving "Russia and the *president*".
This is Putin using him as a mouthpiece, to deflect the fault to the generals and keep Putin clean.
I think it's even simpler and stupider than that. Prigozhin has a personal army and wants to kill the guy who just shelled his guys, so he's going to take that army and go kill him. He doesn't want to fight the army or go depose Putin, he just wants to go kill the Minister of Defence.
Nah. Sounds like it's Prigozhin vs Shoigu as fall guy. Putin could squash the 'uprising' or go the other way and 'find' evidence of Shoigu's corruption. The loser takes the rap for Ukraine.
> Playing the role of Julius Caesar trying to get the masses to like him
I would have used "has a 50,000 man army at his personal control" but that works too.
Prigozhin has been weirdly honest throughout the war, even when he was sending thousands of prison conscripts to their doom to take a city he was constantly complaining about how the Russian military was disorganized, corrupt, and incompetent.
Prigozhin even commended Ukrainian troops for being well led and well motivated, noting that the Ukrainian troops were giving his Wagner Group a very tough fight. According to him, Ukraine is a worthy adversary on the battlefield.
Not the first time he is openly mocking, speaking up against the Russian leadership. What is he trying to achieve here? It’s not like he isn’t replaceable?
He's making power plays and has been for a while, which he can get away with because he has his own military force, funding, and he's far away from Moscow. Recently the Kremlin said they want to integrate Wagner forces with the army, and Prigozhin basically laughed in their face.
I'd say the battle lines for removing/replacing Putin are steadily being drawn.
Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66005256
That would likely be Dmitry Utkin, who is reportedly the actual "Wagner" from where the name derives. Utkin himself is former GRU, and it has been said that he picked the name Wagner because the composer was Hitler's favorite. Utkin supposedly founded the group, though Prigozhin has recently said that he did; it may be that Prigozhin provided the funding while Utkin actually developed the company.
Utkin is highly decorated but not a public face. According to Wikipedia, he hasn't made any public appearances in years.
Thanks. That's what it sounds like. I was wondering who is number 2 not only in terms of big names, but who is the main lieutenant who actually could control people on the ground (e.g., in case Utkin is in Africa or the Levant). Who senior in Wagner was surprised by this, and who knew it was coming.
Oh well, we'll resume this convo the next time he pulls some shit. Hopefully he didn't Gran a warhead or two from Rostov
The whole thing about Wagner getting access to warheads is almost certainly nonsense. First, warheads aren't known to be stored at Rostov. Second, while there is a facility that *can* store warheads in Voronezh, it apparently hasn't been used for that in years and is used only in training, so even if Wagner went there, they would come back empty-handed. Finally, even if they did, Russia locks all the warheads with PAL codes, including tactical warheads. Without the PAL codes, the most they could do is create a dirty bomb, and even that wouldn't do much more than paint about a thousand targets on the back of Prigozhin and everyone else in the leadership.
I'm not sure about replacing Putin. He could be giving Prigozhin his private blessing to call out the top brass. This let's Putin turn around and remove them publicly for "deceiving" him. It creates a story for the public to understand. Then Prigozhin and his inner circle gets to become the new top brass in the Russian military, with Putin appointing them.
This way Putin gets to save face and get rid of his, truthfully, incompetent military leaders.
It addresses one layer. As we've seen throughout the conflict, they have multiple levels of incompetence, as shown by the staggering number of generals who have been killed, ranging from five (Russian claim) to 14 (Ukrainian claim), with several of them shot with small arms fire, which should pretty much never happen in a modern war. A bunch of colonels have met similar fates for making stupid mistakes.
Based on reports on how the military is being deployed to defend Moscow, I don't think this was planned. Putin may want to be seen as a James Bond villain thinking 37 moves in advance, but recent history has shown he's not all that bright. First off, his attempted blitz invasion of Ukraine was disastrous, and now one of Russia's most combat hardened battle groups has turned rogue.
I think Putin has completely lost control of the situation.
Possible, but I doubt it. Trying to remove those who directly control army by siccing PMC on them runs the risk of them using control of army to instead remove you when they figure out that's what you are playing at. In part, because given the chance, wagner will most likely shoot shoigu and rest on sight. They certainly have that kind of reputation and if they were after me I would expect exactly that. There already were changes in ministry of defence in past years, if putin wanted to sideline shoigu, he has options with much lower chance of spectacularly backfiring. Though now that I think of it... who knows? He DID order invasion of Ukraine, after all.
It may all be staged by Putin, or as an option provided by Prigozhin to Putin, as a way of getting out of the Ukraine mess by blaming it on the deceptive, incompetent generals, leaving Putin's position intact.
At the very least, Putin is allowing for it to go unpunished, which says something. If he wanted Prigozhin whacked, he could have him whacked. And he can't whack his generals, unless ... well, see above.
>At the very least, Putin is allowing for it to go unpunished, which says something. If he wanted Prigozhin whacked, he could have him whacked.
Putin isn't all-powerful. A dictator, yes, and himself untouchable within Russia, but that doesn't mean that everyone happily follows his orders to the letter. Prigozhin travels with bodyguards who are likely among the most skilled in the Wagner PMC. He also has his own intelligence apparatus, probably has spies in both the military and the intelligence services (and knows there are spies in his camp), and is widely admired among the Russian military for getting things done. Getting a bullet to him would be difficult, and anything bigger would be extraordinarily obvious.
That doesn't mean that he's safe, but it does mean that most efforts to deal with him could have tremendous consequences. And if officers start to think that maybe they're at risk, too, well, it's important to remember that coups historically aren't usually led by the enlisted.
I don't see Putin as having the ability to assassinate him now. It could just as likley fail and then you have a guy who controls a military force that is about a fifth the size of your conventional army trying to kill you, while you have 97% of your force already committed. Putin isn't giving off strong man vibes anymore. There is a pretty significant chance that he soon finds himself experiencing how Gaddafi felt in that video he is obsessed with watching.
Hard to say that it could work. Pandora's box is now open. Would Ukraine accept peace if they didn't get crimea back? Hard to say. Russia can't give it up without looking weak.
And 100% ukraine isnt going to accept Kherson and zaporizhia as part of Russia, but it's vital to the security of crimea. Would the Kremlin trade it back?
I don't think theres a way out of the war for Russia. The government relies on the perception of power. A peace requires concessions to Ukraine, which destroy the illusion of power. I'd be surprised if Putin is on board with this. I'd say prigozhin is hoping to gain power at the military expense, by paying lip service to Putin. But if prigozhin gains authority over the military z Putin will struggle to control him I think.
Try replacing someone with his own literal private army whose pockets are deep enough to continue funding the force, perhaps he's positioning himself to take the helm of Russia, who knows it's all speculation
He's very carefully keeping criticism away from Putin himself and instead aiming at leadership (meaning the generals and ministers behind Putin). He knows that if this continues to go south then there will be a purge and my guess is that he's aiming to be second in command whenever that happens.
He's called Putin a stupid old grandpa before and a dumb fuck grandpa on video. He has an army strong enough that the FSB would be shit out of luck if he turned around and attacked internally while 97% of the standing army is deployed at the front. He is pretty good at propaganda too and has a lot of support with young military aged men.
The first of July is a deadline for his troops to directly sign contract with russian mod.
After that, he's largely obsolete.
Clearly he isn't going quietly.
> Putin has, however, backed a Defence Ministry order, which Prigozhin opposes, that mercenary groups like Wagner must sign contracts putting themselves under ministry control by July 1.
Same day reddit starts charging for API calls, coincidence ? I think not.
Trying to negotiate his influence. He doesn't want to come under defence ministry and maintain independence while at the same time want ministry to have endless supply of weapons and ammunitions for his group.
I also hear Putin doesn't like his Shoigu (Russia defence minister)
Maybe they do plan to pin the whole military operation on him and the army general.
I would like to see the video though, too much bullshit flowing from both sides
>I also hear Putin doesn't like his Shoigu (Russia defence minister)
Putin is simultaneously a dictator and also a head of state who can't even change his defence minister. I smell bullshit.
>I would like to see the video though, too much bullshit flowing from both sides
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672177488535977984
https://twitter.com/JamesPorrazzo/status/1670021737432457216 - prigozhin demanding a separate contract and unlimited support.
> I smell bullshit
I'm sure he has the power to but one of the toughest jobs a dictator has is deciding who to put in charge of the army because if you fuck it up you don't stay dictator for long.
Putin doesn't need out tbh. To stay in Putin's good graces would have meant that he accepts the new law and do his "duty" like a good "soldier". This is just him flailing because either he is shut down and his influence is gone or he is brought under the ministry and his influence is gone. There are two extra ways this goes down, Putin "listens" to his reasoning and allow him the contract he wants, i.e., he wins. Or Putin just doesn't pay any attention to him and he keeps on saying these things which lands him a gig at some media house, his "army" is gone but he saves some of his influence.
Btw I feel so bad for the fiction writers hired by American mainstream media. Just a few months back they were pitting Prighozin, kadyrov and some other dude as three guys trying to coup and divide power 3 way in Moscow.
Not when you have 50,000 dudes protecting you that are better trained than the shitty conventional Russian army. They even kidnapped a Russian officer on video.
The man is the head of his own private army, and is surrounded by highly trained bodyguards personally loyal to him, not to Putin.
This is like the problem Rome had, where its legions sometimes were more loyal to their commanding general than they were to Rome's emperor.
How so? It hasn't changed at all lol.
He knows it's do or die. The status hasn't changed. This is a last stand. Refusing to comply means he's now a dead man walking.
He's on his way out one way or another. It's a question of whether it's with a bang or a whisper. He chose bang.
I was talking about the people predicting that he would be thrown out of a window. He ain’t dying that way and it seems that he has chosen the do or die path.
Yeah because he knows it's over for him. It's "how" not "if" he's killed. Which is why I said he's on his way out.
Sorry that's American slang idk if that's familiar to you.
He's taken control of a major city in Russia already, and apparently Russian military regulars are either not trying to stop him, or they're outright joining him. The Kremlin is in panic mode.
At this rate, by July 1st, Prigozhin may very well be the man in charge of Russia's military, and Russia.
> Says war was about army chief's vanity and personal glory
I so hope this is Putin's preparations for withdrawing.
Getting the court jester to throw this out there, and see how it goes down.
[video of strike aftermath ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/14h5nlh/claimed_russian_missile_attack_on_one_of_wagner/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
If you wanted the speech sorry, I'm looking for it as well
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> LONDON, June 23 - Russia accused mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin of calling for an armed mutiny on Friday after he alleged, without providing evidence, that the military leadership had killed 2,000 of his fighters and vowed to stop what he called its "Evil".
> Wagner spearheaded Russia's capture of the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut last month, and Prigozhin has used its battlefield success, achieved at enormous human cost, to publicly criticise Moscow with seeming impunity - until now.
> Marat Gabidullin, a former Wagner commander who moved to France when Russia invaded Ukraine, told Reuters that Wagner's fighters were likely to stand with Prigozhin.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14h9r6j/russian_mercenary_boss_says_moscows_war_in/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689189 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Prigozhin**^#1 **Russia**^#2 **Wagner**^#3 **military**^#4 **calls**^#5
Here's my 1c conjecture: Many themes in Prig's social media rants are reality-based.
* Russian MoD really was trying/planning to starve Wagner and shutter or diminish them. Cut off recruitment/arms/funding/supplies etc. Maybe there are bank freezes or asset seizures we haven't heard of happening in the background.
* This is partly/largely because of competing PMCs owned by other Siloviki.
* MoD is bureaucratic and slow.
* Prigozin decided to act fast.
* The "Marching on Moscow," coup narrative is a diversion/screen for their current operation... with some propaganda thrown in for future use.
* Wagner has realistic goals they are trying to achieve right now.... Military supply facilities. Supply routes, maybe even a small area of territorial control.
* If they manage to take physical control of the norther borderlands.... they'll be very hard to dislodge. MoD will have to negotiate.
On the meta/political/narrative front...
* Major military actions against Wagner would be extremely destabilizing and risky.
* MoD has lost much credibility in the border areas, after their weak resistance to partisan incursions. Locals, maybe even local government might *prefer* to have 25k in Rostov.
Midgame:
* If successful, Wagner gain a physical base of operations, near the border, with territorial control. Probably ammo/supplies. Probably some strategic assets like like rail.
* MoD will have to live with it, supply Wagner, etc.
Endgame
* Prigozin is a much bigger risk taker and he's much faster than his opponents.
* "Political Aspirations" is basically a certainty at this point.
* Having "gone to war" with Shoigu and survived with gains... Who knows what support he might gain. If a handful of senior officers support him, he might be able to go full coup.
sidenote: I think Russia has crossed the "coup" point regardless. Besides Putin, who hasn't been very active, civilian control of the military is nonexistent anyway.
d
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He seems to wish for an unalive attemp on himself by defenestration while shooting himself 15 times at his back while drinking polonium tea.
This man seems highly depressed.
Thats a dumb, worn out, overused meme.
Prigozhin is the leader of his own personal army which is loyal to him, not to Putin, and the Wagner Group has shown to be more combat effective than Russia's actual, real army. He's not some rival politician who can be arrested on whim.
This is an existential threat to Putin. I imagine things are very tense in the Kremlin right now.
But doesn't he still support the war for other reasons right? I've heard Wagner claim that they were being oppressed as Russians living in Ukraine for a long time
He was fine with it as long as Putin's checks cleared.
Now he wants to tell the truth after the gig has dried up.
Prigozhin can have a nice warm glass of shut the fuck up and die.
Why won’t everyone just admit that this is a war over resources specifically water and oil? Russia keeping its monopoly over providing energy to Europe and Ukraine denying water to Sevastopol to deny Russia its only year round port as leverage to regain the oil reserves taken over by Russia in 2014. Arguably both countries are extremely logical, acting in their own self interest and US instigated by lighting fire under the pot in 2014 installing anti-Russia regime with Zelensky in Ukraine as payback for Russia effectively stopping US middle eastern policy in Syria/Iran/Iraq.
Unpopular opinion: Ukraine has made any kind of negotiations impossible in blowing up kakhovka dam, nordstream pipeline and Crimean bridge. Not saying Russia is clean by any means but Ukraine is consistently putting Russia in position that they cannot accept. Russia strategically cannot lose Sevastopol, militarily or economically and they will never “give it back” as it is their only year round port. They’d quickly go from arguably 2nd world country to 3rd world very fast especially considering their depopulation problem with below replacement birth rates. I don’t see any pragmatic off ramp that Russia can accept as long as Ukraine “sees” a tenable victory position keeping them from any realistic negotiations.
>US instigated by lighting fire under the pot in 2014 installing anti-Russia regime with Zelensky in Ukraine as payback for Russia effectively stopping US middle eastern policy in Syria/Iran/Iraq.
Zelensky wasn't elected until 2019... I don't think your timeline quite works out.
##### ###### #### > # [Russian mercenary boss says Moscow's war in Ukraine based on lies](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/Founder of Wagner private mercenary group Yevgeny Prigozhin leaves a cemetery before the funeral of Russian military blogger Maxim Fomin widely known by the name of Vladlen Tatarsky, who was recently killed in a bomb attack in a St Petersburg cafe, in Moscow, Russia, April 8, 2023. REUTERS/Yulia Morozova/File Photo) > > > > - Prigozhin takes feud with top brass to new level > - Accuses it of deceiving Putin over Ukraine war > - Says war was about army chief's vanity and personal glory > - Says oligarchic ruling clan wanted to enrich itself > > > > > > LONDON, June 23 (Reuters) - Russian mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin said on Friday that the official Kremlin-backed version of why Moscow invaded Ukraine was based on lies concocted by his perennial adversary - the army's top brass. > > Prigozhin has for months been accusing Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Russia's top general, Valery Gerasimov, of rank incompetence, but on Friday he for the first time rejected Russia's core justifications for invading Ukraine on Feb. 24 last year in what it calls a "special military operation". > > "... the Defence Ministry is trying to deceive society and the president and tell us a story about how there was crazy aggression from Ukraine and that they were planning to attack us with the whole of NATO," Prigozhin said in a video clip released on Telegram by his press service, calling the official version "a beautiful story". > > "The special operation was started for different reasons," he said. "The war was needed ... so that Shoigu could become a marshal ... so that he could get a second 'Hero' [of Russia] medal. The war wasn't needed to demilitarise or denazify Ukraine." > > He also said the war had been needed to acquire "material assets" to divide among the ruling elite. > > Prigozhin portrays his Wagner private militia, which spearheaded the capture of the city of Bakhmut last month, as Russia's most effective fighting force, and has enjoyed unusual freedom to publicly criticise Moscow, albeit not President Vladimir Putin, on whose support he ultimately depends. > > Yet his latest assertion runs directly counter to the rationale for the war espoused by Putin, who said when sending his armed forces into Ukraine that it was to demilitarise and denazify a country that posed a threat to Russia. > > The Kremlin leader casts the conflict as an existential struggle against a Western alliance that wants to use Ukraine as a platform to destroy Russia. > > There was no immediate response from the Defence Ministry, which has ignored previous complaints from Prigozhin, in public at least. Nor was there any immediate reaction from the Kremlin, which has declined in the past to comment on Prigozhin's outbursts. > > Reporting by Andrew Osborn; Editing by Kevin Liffey > > Our Standards: [The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.](https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en/about-us/trust-principles.html) - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
>The war wasn't needed to demilitarise or denazify Ukraine You know, I think that's the first truthful thing he's ever said.
He had earlier said that the war has achieved the massive militarisation of Ukraine.
Meanwhile the Kremlin says Ukraine has been demilitarised, because most of its equipment now comes from the west. Wait, what?
It's like saying that I have no beers in my fridge because I bought all the beers at the store rather than brewing it myself.
"I have no beers in my fridge. Instead, I have breweries constantly supplying me with beer to keep throwing at the grizzly that somehow broke into my kitchen, in the hopes that it'll eventually get so hammered it leaves or passes out."
It’s a vodka bear, gonna need something a little stronger
*Cartels and the terrorist groups enter the chat.*
Tecnhically true, if all weapons come from the west, it means Ukraine would be turned essentially into a client state, so Ukraine itself would be "demilitarised". It's propaganda of course, but the rhetoric is right
Seems like he is playing his cards to try and end up as the future President if Putin is ousted. Playing the role of Julius Caesar trying to get the masses to like him so he has a democratic mandate to rule and foreign leaders to prefer him instead of the ruling class. Walking a thin line if the war ends in Putin staying in though, they can't afford to exile him now, they would crumble, but once the war is over he may find himself on the wrong side of the politics of the Kremlin.
He'll shoot himself in the head twice after overcoming a mysterious illness
while falling out of a window
He'd have to surround himself with an army or something to stay safe. Even then, he hasn't been in the sunlight in a month
And touching a defective doorknob
Becomes mysteriously sick after tea with Putin. He wakes in the hospital and falls out a 9th story window in a daze; he lands on his sidearm, which is accidentally discharged nine times to the back of the head. Death ruled accidental.
You have that backwards, Prigozhin is the man who serves Putin tea: https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2019/01/15/prigozhin4-1-15-19-ap_18255222439605_custom-d3da60fccccbc49157a2b2d182d74ad132e45f81-s900-c85.webp Prigozhin isn't the man who waits for the knock at the door. Prigozhin is the one who knocks. Thats why Putin is in crisis mode right now.
Nah, that's a text book Russian suicide. No accidents here.
You're very close. Notice his wording carefully: he accuses the top army brass of deceiving "Russia and the *president*". This is Putin using him as a mouthpiece, to deflect the fault to the generals and keep Putin clean.
Gives Putin an out
I think it's even simpler and stupider than that. Prigozhin has a personal army and wants to kill the guy who just shelled his guys, so he's going to take that army and go kill him. He doesn't want to fight the army or go depose Putin, he just wants to go kill the Minister of Defence.
To quote Vanilla Ice - Yep Yep
More a Brutus... or maybe an Anthony. Either way he is an *honourable man* I'm sure.
What do you reckon if he became leader? Worse than Putin, or better than Putin?
Hard to be worse than Putin. Firing off a bunch of nukes would do it.
Prigozhin is saying that Putin was deceived by Shoigu. He protecting Putin from the criticism.
Nah. Sounds like it's Prigozhin vs Shoigu as fall guy. Putin could squash the 'uprising' or go the other way and 'find' evidence of Shoigu's corruption. The loser takes the rap for Ukraine.
> Playing the role of Julius Caesar trying to get the masses to like him I would have used "has a 50,000 man army at his personal control" but that works too.
Prigozhin has been weirdly honest throughout the war, even when he was sending thousands of prison conscripts to their doom to take a city he was constantly complaining about how the Russian military was disorganized, corrupt, and incompetent. Prigozhin even commended Ukrainian troops for being well led and well motivated, noting that the Ukrainian troops were giving his Wagner Group a very tough fight. According to him, Ukraine is a worthy adversary on the battlefield.
Yesok but his retreat is kinda denazifying the Ukraine...
Not the first time he is openly mocking, speaking up against the Russian leadership. What is he trying to achieve here? It’s not like he isn’t replaceable?
He's making power plays and has been for a while, which he can get away with because he has his own military force, funding, and he's far away from Moscow. Recently the Kremlin said they want to integrate Wagner forces with the army, and Prigozhin basically laughed in their face. I'd say the battle lines for removing/replacing Putin are steadily being drawn. Edit: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66005256
It reminds me so much of like Ancient Rome. Got the better army? Cool, you’re the emperor now!
There's a great cpg grey video and he refers to this as "bigger army diplomacy"
Who is number 2 in Wagner, and how does Putin feel about that guy? Does anyone know his successor?
That would likely be Dmitry Utkin, who is reportedly the actual "Wagner" from where the name derives. Utkin himself is former GRU, and it has been said that he picked the name Wagner because the composer was Hitler's favorite. Utkin supposedly founded the group, though Prigozhin has recently said that he did; it may be that Prigozhin provided the funding while Utkin actually developed the company. Utkin is highly decorated but not a public face. According to Wikipedia, he hasn't made any public appearances in years.
Thanks. That's what it sounds like. I was wondering who is number 2 not only in terms of big names, but who is the main lieutenant who actually could control people on the ground (e.g., in case Utkin is in Africa or the Levant). Who senior in Wagner was surprised by this, and who knew it was coming. Oh well, we'll resume this convo the next time he pulls some shit. Hopefully he didn't Gran a warhead or two from Rostov
The whole thing about Wagner getting access to warheads is almost certainly nonsense. First, warheads aren't known to be stored at Rostov. Second, while there is a facility that *can* store warheads in Voronezh, it apparently hasn't been used for that in years and is used only in training, so even if Wagner went there, they would come back empty-handed. Finally, even if they did, Russia locks all the warheads with PAL codes, including tactical warheads. Without the PAL codes, the most they could do is create a dirty bomb, and even that wouldn't do much more than paint about a thousand targets on the back of Prigozhin and everyone else in the leadership.
Which video? Rules for rulers?
No it's the [royal family tree](https://youtu.be/jNgP6d9HraI) I believe
It turns out, Russia was the true successor to Rome after all
All of the political dysfunction and none of the durable public works!
Well there's a cupola in Chernobyl that looks like it's built for eternity.
Third Rome!!!
I'm not sure about replacing Putin. He could be giving Prigozhin his private blessing to call out the top brass. This let's Putin turn around and remove them publicly for "deceiving" him. It creates a story for the public to understand. Then Prigozhin and his inner circle gets to become the new top brass in the Russian military, with Putin appointing them. This way Putin gets to save face and get rid of his, truthfully, incompetent military leaders.
It addresses one layer. As we've seen throughout the conflict, they have multiple levels of incompetence, as shown by the staggering number of generals who have been killed, ranging from five (Russian claim) to 14 (Ukrainian claim), with several of them shot with small arms fire, which should pretty much never happen in a modern war. A bunch of colonels have met similar fates for making stupid mistakes.
Based on reports on how the military is being deployed to defend Moscow, I don't think this was planned. Putin may want to be seen as a James Bond villain thinking 37 moves in advance, but recent history has shown he's not all that bright. First off, his attempted blitz invasion of Ukraine was disastrous, and now one of Russia's most combat hardened battle groups has turned rogue. I think Putin has completely lost control of the situation.
I really hope he lost control
Possible, but I doubt it. Trying to remove those who directly control army by siccing PMC on them runs the risk of them using control of army to instead remove you when they figure out that's what you are playing at. In part, because given the chance, wagner will most likely shoot shoigu and rest on sight. They certainly have that kind of reputation and if they were after me I would expect exactly that. There already were changes in ministry of defence in past years, if putin wanted to sideline shoigu, he has options with much lower chance of spectacularly backfiring. Though now that I think of it... who knows? He DID order invasion of Ukraine, after all.
Funny now because it seems like Wagner is integrating the army.
It may all be staged by Putin, or as an option provided by Prigozhin to Putin, as a way of getting out of the Ukraine mess by blaming it on the deceptive, incompetent generals, leaving Putin's position intact. At the very least, Putin is allowing for it to go unpunished, which says something. If he wanted Prigozhin whacked, he could have him whacked. And he can't whack his generals, unless ... well, see above.
>At the very least, Putin is allowing for it to go unpunished, which says something. If he wanted Prigozhin whacked, he could have him whacked. Putin isn't all-powerful. A dictator, yes, and himself untouchable within Russia, but that doesn't mean that everyone happily follows his orders to the letter. Prigozhin travels with bodyguards who are likely among the most skilled in the Wagner PMC. He also has his own intelligence apparatus, probably has spies in both the military and the intelligence services (and knows there are spies in his camp), and is widely admired among the Russian military for getting things done. Getting a bullet to him would be difficult, and anything bigger would be extraordinarily obvious. That doesn't mean that he's safe, but it does mean that most efforts to deal with him could have tremendous consequences. And if officers start to think that maybe they're at risk, too, well, it's important to remember that coups historically aren't usually led by the enlisted.
I don't see Putin as having the ability to assassinate him now. It could just as likley fail and then you have a guy who controls a military force that is about a fifth the size of your conventional army trying to kill you, while you have 97% of your force already committed. Putin isn't giving off strong man vibes anymore. There is a pretty significant chance that he soon finds himself experiencing how Gaddafi felt in that video he is obsessed with watching.
Hard to say that it could work. Pandora's box is now open. Would Ukraine accept peace if they didn't get crimea back? Hard to say. Russia can't give it up without looking weak. And 100% ukraine isnt going to accept Kherson and zaporizhia as part of Russia, but it's vital to the security of crimea. Would the Kremlin trade it back? I don't think theres a way out of the war for Russia. The government relies on the perception of power. A peace requires concessions to Ukraine, which destroy the illusion of power. I'd be surprised if Putin is on board with this. I'd say prigozhin is hoping to gain power at the military expense, by paying lip service to Putin. But if prigozhin gains authority over the military z Putin will struggle to control him I think.
Try replacing someone with his own literal private army whose pockets are deep enough to continue funding the force, perhaps he's positioning himself to take the helm of Russia, who knows it's all speculation
How would you replace him? He literally has the de facto real Russian army under his command. He's a warlord, not a CEO.
He can't be easily replaced because he has a private army under his command.
He's very carefully keeping criticism away from Putin himself and instead aiming at leadership (meaning the generals and ministers behind Putin). He knows that if this continues to go south then there will be a purge and my guess is that he's aiming to be second in command whenever that happens.
He's called Putin a stupid old grandpa before and a dumb fuck grandpa on video. He has an army strong enough that the FSB would be shit out of luck if he turned around and attacked internally while 97% of the standing army is deployed at the front. He is pretty good at propaganda too and has a lot of support with young military aged men.
The first of July is a deadline for his troops to directly sign contract with russian mod. After that, he's largely obsolete. Clearly he isn't going quietly.
> What is he trying to achieve here? duh, is better for Putin to have Russian that disagree with him to agree with this pawn vs agree with NATO
My guess, Putin needs a scapegoat to save face and this guy is helping him out. Now Putin has an excuse to throw a couple underlings under the bus
I'm suprised hes still alive after what hes said recently. I guess he also has a growing backing within Moscow and maybe can be confident of a coup.
> Putin has, however, backed a Defence Ministry order, which Prigozhin opposes, that mercenary groups like Wagner must sign contracts putting themselves under ministry control by July 1. Same day reddit starts charging for API calls, coincidence ? I think not.
Tbh at a glance Spez looks more "Hitlerjugend" than "Komsomol" you kn ow?
We're still in the Molotov-Ribbentrop era, he'll reveal his true face later in the game.
No shit... ?
"Boooo hoooo hoooo, we just wanted a good time and they started fighting back"
Doesn't have the balls to blame Putin, or is he trying to pin the (edit: defence ministry and army general) as scapegoats
Trying to negotiate his influence. He doesn't want to come under defence ministry and maintain independence while at the same time want ministry to have endless supply of weapons and ammunitions for his group.
I also hear Putin doesn't like his Shoigu (Russia defence minister) Maybe they do plan to pin the whole military operation on him and the army general. I would like to see the video though, too much bullshit flowing from both sides
>I also hear Putin doesn't like his Shoigu (Russia defence minister) Putin is simultaneously a dictator and also a head of state who can't even change his defence minister. I smell bullshit. >I would like to see the video though, too much bullshit flowing from both sides https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672177488535977984 https://twitter.com/JamesPorrazzo/status/1670021737432457216 - prigozhin demanding a separate contract and unlimited support.
> I smell bullshit I'm sure he has the power to but one of the toughest jobs a dictator has is deciding who to put in charge of the army because if you fuck it up you don't stay dictator for long.
Almost as if him liking or not liking Shoigu doesn't matter and even he understands it.
Thanks
Yeah he's kind of giving putin an out as well. Maybe to stay in his good graces, or to trick him?
Putin doesn't need out tbh. To stay in Putin's good graces would have meant that he accepts the new law and do his "duty" like a good "soldier". This is just him flailing because either he is shut down and his influence is gone or he is brought under the ministry and his influence is gone. There are two extra ways this goes down, Putin "listens" to his reasoning and allow him the contract he wants, i.e., he wins. Or Putin just doesn't pay any attention to him and he keeps on saying these things which lands him a gig at some media house, his "army" is gone but he saves some of his influence. Btw I feel so bad for the fiction writers hired by American mainstream media. Just a few months back they were pitting Prighozin, kadyrov and some other dude as three guys trying to coup and divide power 3 way in Moscow.
Good king bad advisors. Criticizing the man on top is a bad idea. He's not stupid if he directly attacks Putin he gets shot.
Not when you have 50,000 dudes protecting you that are better trained than the shitty conventional Russian army. They even kidnapped a Russian officer on video.
All Putin has to do is get one officer bribed.
This dude is going to fly out of a window soon, isn't he?
Thanks for the spoiler.
The man is the head of his own private army, and is surrounded by highly trained bodyguards personally loyal to him, not to Putin. This is like the problem Rome had, where its legions sometimes were more loyal to their commanding general than they were to Rome's emperor.
He has to sign away control of his army to the Russian military ministry by July 1st. He knows he's on his way out.
Welp, that aged poorly.
How so? It hasn't changed at all lol. He knows it's do or die. The status hasn't changed. This is a last stand. Refusing to comply means he's now a dead man walking. He's on his way out one way or another. It's a question of whether it's with a bang or a whisper. He chose bang.
I was talking about the people predicting that he would be thrown out of a window. He ain’t dying that way and it seems that he has chosen the do or die path.
Yeah because he knows it's over for him. It's "how" not "if" he's killed. Which is why I said he's on his way out. Sorry that's American slang idk if that's familiar to you.
He's taken control of a major city in Russia already, and apparently Russian military regulars are either not trying to stop him, or they're outright joining him. The Kremlin is in panic mode. At this rate, by July 1st, Prigozhin may very well be the man in charge of Russia's military, and Russia.
Nah he's a dead man walking. It is just a question of how he goes out, not if. He chose the "Blaze of Glory" path.
Who knows, he might shoot himself in the back of the head a couple of times.
Hey now, wild and naturally occurring Novichok is everywhere these days. You gotta be careful.
This dude has a literal army at his command, so it will be a real window falling contest
> Says war was about army chief's vanity and personal glory I so hope this is Putin's preparations for withdrawing. Getting the court jester to throw this out there, and see how it goes down.
Ahhh everyone really believed they were liberating Ukraine from Nazis but the truth is finally out. Changed all our lives. Sigh.
Extremely rare Prigozhin W
Russia? Lies? https://i.imgur.com/RKRkRGQ.png
Mawp
What war isn’t
Ok sure but are their any windows near this guy?
He carefully didn't attack Putin. Classic good king bad advisors move.
Deceived PUTIN. Clever. Giving him an excuse, an out, and scapegoats.
r/NoShitSherlock
Can anyone find the video
[video of strike aftermath ](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/14h5nlh/claimed_russian_missile_attack_on_one_of_wagner/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) If you wanted the speech sorry, I'm looking for it as well
Stock up on 🍿 and buckle up everyone.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/) reduced by 84%. (I'm a bot) ***** > LONDON, June 23 - Russia accused mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin of calling for an armed mutiny on Friday after he alleged, without providing evidence, that the military leadership had killed 2,000 of his fighters and vowed to stop what he called its "Evil". > Wagner spearheaded Russia's capture of the Ukrainian city of Bakhmut last month, and Prigozhin has used its battlefield success, achieved at enormous human cost, to publicly criticise Moscow with seeming impunity - until now. > Marat Gabidullin, a former Wagner commander who moved to France when Russia invaded Ukraine, told Reuters that Wagner's fighters were likely to stand with Prigozhin. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14h9r6j/russian_mercenary_boss_says_moscows_war_in/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689189 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Prigozhin**^#1 **Russia**^#2 **Wagner**^#3 **military**^#4 **calls**^#5
Here's my 1c conjecture: Many themes in Prig's social media rants are reality-based. * Russian MoD really was trying/planning to starve Wagner and shutter or diminish them. Cut off recruitment/arms/funding/supplies etc. Maybe there are bank freezes or asset seizures we haven't heard of happening in the background. * This is partly/largely because of competing PMCs owned by other Siloviki. * MoD is bureaucratic and slow. * Prigozin decided to act fast. * The "Marching on Moscow," coup narrative is a diversion/screen for their current operation... with some propaganda thrown in for future use. * Wagner has realistic goals they are trying to achieve right now.... Military supply facilities. Supply routes, maybe even a small area of territorial control. * If they manage to take physical control of the norther borderlands.... they'll be very hard to dislodge. MoD will have to negotiate. On the meta/political/narrative front... * Major military actions against Wagner would be extremely destabilizing and risky. * MoD has lost much credibility in the border areas, after their weak resistance to partisan incursions. Locals, maybe even local government might *prefer* to have 25k in Rostov. Midgame: * If successful, Wagner gain a physical base of operations, near the border, with territorial control. Probably ammo/supplies. Probably some strategic assets like like rail. * MoD will have to live with it, supply Wagner, etc. Endgame * Prigozin is a much bigger risk taker and he's much faster than his opponents. * "Political Aspirations" is basically a certainty at this point. * Having "gone to war" with Shoigu and survived with gains... Who knows what support he might gain. If a handful of senior officers support him, he might be able to go full coup. sidenote: I think Russia has crossed the "coup" point regardless. Besides Putin, who hasn't been very active, civilian control of the military is nonexistent anyway. d
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Absolutely floored by this. I am shocked, I am astonished, I don’t know how to process this information.
He's a merc, with shifting loyalties. Same as he was before this
Thanks for catching up with the rest of us. Are you going to do something about it?
He seems to wish for an unalive attemp on himself by defenestration while shooting himself 15 times at his back while drinking polonium tea. This man seems highly depressed.
Thats a dumb, worn out, overused meme. Prigozhin is the leader of his own personal army which is loyal to him, not to Putin, and the Wagner Group has shown to be more combat effective than Russia's actual, real army. He's not some rival politician who can be arrested on whim. This is an existential threat to Putin. I imagine things are very tense in the Kremlin right now.
It's not a meme when almost every oligarch related to Putin got exactly that treatment last year.
No shit, you don’t fuckin say.
Tens of thousands dead so a dude who sees no action could get another medal
But doesn't he still support the war for other reasons right? I've heard Wagner claim that they were being oppressed as Russians living in Ukraine for a long time
We know.
Rats leaving the ship?
He was fine with it as long as Putin's checks cleared. Now he wants to tell the truth after the gig has dried up. Prigozhin can have a nice warm glass of shut the fuck up and die.
Next thing you’ll say is that this Putin fellow isn’t as nice as we’d have liked
Come on Prigozhin, stage a cue
No? Really? Russia's unjustifiable assault and attempted annexation of a sovereign country was based on bullshit and ego? Never would have guessed it.
You do know that he does this for giggles right?
A broken clock is right twice a day
Worth noting that even when he’s telling the truth he’s lying. Ukraine had definitely launched grads into the territory.
Targeting military, not civilians as the Russians accused them of doing
That’s generally what one should do against traitors and invaders.
It doesn’t matter to me, it’s just worth mentioning that he’s still playing with the truth. He’s untrustworthy in this regard.
Why won’t everyone just admit that this is a war over resources specifically water and oil? Russia keeping its monopoly over providing energy to Europe and Ukraine denying water to Sevastopol to deny Russia its only year round port as leverage to regain the oil reserves taken over by Russia in 2014. Arguably both countries are extremely logical, acting in their own self interest and US instigated by lighting fire under the pot in 2014 installing anti-Russia regime with Zelensky in Ukraine as payback for Russia effectively stopping US middle eastern policy in Syria/Iran/Iraq. Unpopular opinion: Ukraine has made any kind of negotiations impossible in blowing up kakhovka dam, nordstream pipeline and Crimean bridge. Not saying Russia is clean by any means but Ukraine is consistently putting Russia in position that they cannot accept. Russia strategically cannot lose Sevastopol, militarily or economically and they will never “give it back” as it is their only year round port. They’d quickly go from arguably 2nd world country to 3rd world very fast especially considering their depopulation problem with below replacement birth rates. I don’t see any pragmatic off ramp that Russia can accept as long as Ukraine “sees” a tenable victory position keeping them from any realistic negotiations.
>US instigated by lighting fire under the pot in 2014 installing anti-Russia regime with Zelensky in Ukraine as payback for Russia effectively stopping US middle eastern policy in Syria/Iran/Iraq. Zelensky wasn't elected until 2019... I don't think your timeline quite works out.
Well it is a proxy war. And the US did blow up the nordstream pipeline
For the US iand general west its a proxy war, for Russia and Ukraine its a straight war.