#####
######
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> # [Putin accuses Wagner chief of ‘treason’ and vows to ‘neutralise’ uprising](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/24/720)
>
>
>
> The Russian president has accused Yevgeny Prigozhin of “treason” after the warlord launched an uprising against Russia’s army, taking over at least one major Russian city.
>
> In an emergency televised address on Saturday morning, [Vladimir Putin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/vladimir-putin) said “the fate of our people is being decided”, accusing the Wagner group headed by Prigozhin of “armed mutiny” and vowing to “neutralise” the uprising.
>
> “It’s an attempt to subvert us from inside. This is treason in the face of those who are fighting on the front,” a visibly angry Putin told the Russian public.
>
> “This is a stab in the back of our troops and the people of Russia.”
>
> In videos posted on social media early on Saturday, [Prigozhin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/yevgeny-prigozhin-the-hotdog-seller-who-rose-to-the-top-of-putin-war-machine-wagner-group) said he was at the headquarters of the Southern Military District (SMD) in Rostov-on-Don and demanded the defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, and Russia’s top general, Valery Gerasimov, come to the city, 1,000km (620 miles) south of Moscow.
>
> “We have arrived here, we want to receive the chief of the general staff and Shoigu,” Prigozhin said in one video, seated between two senior Russian generals. “Unless they come, we’ll be here, we’ll blockade the city of Rostov and head for Moscow.”
>
> Images circulating widely online showed what appeared to be Wagner troops with tanks and armoured vehicles surrounding government buildings in Rostov, where Prigozhin appears to have taken over a Russian army base.
>
> Several Russian media outlets also reported on Saturday that Wagner fighters had taken control of all military facilities in the city of Voronezh, about 310 miles south of Moscow.
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> Late on Friday, Prigozhin claimed a Russian rocket attack had killed scores of his fighters, vowing to take “revenge” and “stop the evil brought by the military leadership of the country”.
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> In a virtual declaration of war against his rivals in the Russian military, Prigozhin said he controlled 25,000 fighters and that together “we are going to figure out why the chaos is happening in the country”.
>
> “Anyone who wants should join. We need to end this mess,” he said.
>
> Russian security services have [moved swiftly against the Wagner boss](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/23/wagner-chief-accuses-russias-military-of-attack-and-says-evil-leadership-must-be-stopped), denouncing Prigozhin for “treachery” and ordering the mercenary group’s fighters to detain their commander.
>
> The defence ministry also published videos with several senior military generals who urged Prigozhin to stop what one commander described as a “coup”.
>
> “This is a stab in the back of the country and the president,” Gen Vladimir Alekseyev, the deputy head of Russia’s military intelligence agency, said in a video appeal to Wagner fighters. “This is a coup,” Alekseyev added.
>
> On Saturday morning, Prigozhin was seen meeting Russia’s deputy defence minister and the deputy head of the GRU, Russia’s main intelligence directorate. In the clip, Pirgozhin said he planned to march on to Moscow, adding that he had shot down three Russian helicopters that tried to resist him.
>
> Britain’s defence ministry said on Saturday that the Russian state was facing its greatest security challenge of recent times, following what it said appeared to be a move by Wagner group mercenary forces towards Moscow.
>
> “Over the coming hours, the loyalty of Russia’s security forces, and especially the Russian National Guard, will be key to how this crisis plays out,” Britain’s defence ministry said in a regular intelligence update.
- - - - - -
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> Russians are stubborn that way.
Win that way. Politics and current situation aside; 75%+ of German Soldiers that fell in WW2 fell on the Russian front and from the Russian invasion at the end of the war.
The Russians killed more than the other Allies combined, by over 25%.
We can mock their strategy today, but to portray it historically as them just being 'stubborn' isn't giving credit to the tactic, however brutal it is for their own people.
They beat the Nazis and Napoleon back with this strategy, using their primary advantage when on defense, they have a very wide swath of land; keep your enemy struggling to even supply themselves and watch them rot in the open field.
It's funny to me that their strategy of making their enemies struggle with supplies showed them it's brutal, yet they failed to supply their own troops and expected things to go different.
Another video shows it was damaged with an anti-aircraft rocket that got misdirected due to heat traps released. That's why on video with explosion it happens after the heli releases traps and moves to the side.
Only reason I made the post above. Because of the rules I couldn't say a war with Wagner but they are close and he is trying to show power. He might even be taken over during this telecast.
[Popcorn at the ready](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/comments/14hotlq/magyar_jaggajagga_trolling_hard_right_now/)
Edit: [Meanwhile Zelensky be like...](https://old.reddit.com/user/Albert_Poopdecker/comments/14hugch/zelensky_be_like/)
At least a side note. Nobody is gonna give this guy the nuclear codes as the people in the bunker are most likely going to be loyal to Putin. As long as he maneuvers right and stops the Ukraine stuff he’ll be ok.
Damn, i can't tell if i should support Wagner, who before this were litteral terrorists, or if i should support Putin, cuz, yknow, its fucjing putin. still kinda a lose-lose scenario here
Hey guys, i'm in crimea rn and i kinda witnessed at least 4 military passenger airplanes passing by (they can't be civil as there is a non-flight zone). I wonder if it may be some kind of politics evacuation? Cos for the past year it was mostly just jets and almost no passenger flights
Well as far as i can tell the wagners are marching on east from crimea, so i'm lucky again. There's videos of full-armed wagner forces in the middle of huge cities like Rostov, pretty fucked up if you ask me
Reuters are reporting that they are already past Voronezh too. [Link. ](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/wagner-head-suggests-his-mercenaries-headed-moscow-take-army-leadership-2023-06-24/) Apparently a helicopter opened fire on the convoy.
Yeah, thanks. My concern now is that they'll probably need to move forces from crimea to protect moscow from wagner, leaving it free for ukrainian army. Wether they're threatening civils well or not - there shall be conflicts with remaining russian troops, so in that case i'm fucked. It doesn't get better considering you can't leave crimea now cos i heard the highway leading from it is now sealed
>[landed on the Turkish Mediterranean coast in Bodrum at 05:15](https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/lukashenkos-business-jet-lands-turkey-102100919.html)
They are here for a fucking holiday.
What a wild situation. 25k troops is nothing to scoff at. Especially when you're in the middle of a war not only against another country but against the money of a lot of major powers like the US and UK. Obviously being from the west really limits my knowledge of the situation aside from propagandas and a few news articles here and there. So i'm curious as to what the actual current sentiment is amongst the average Russian citizen.
Either way, things are trending massively downward for those in Russia that hold political power right now. Will be a really interesting week.
hell, if prigo decides to raid prisons to recruit more mercenaries and end up freeing navalny and all the other political dissidents jailed for protests.
their numbers are gonna bloat.
Don't have to fight Wagners? Like, the army doesn't exactly have great morale, and they will probably not defect unless forced to fight by superiors, buuuut Prigo is playing the 'stab in the back of common man by corrupt elites surrounding good king Putin', so he's reasonably popular.
And why would he risk freeing opposition and dissidents? Putin already set him up for success by jailing them.
At least that's my read. I am literally noone.
Well right now a lot of soldiers are being used as cannon fodder. If his message is that Putin and his goons are corrupt, soldiers might rather die to end that than invading a country for a made up cause.
Idk if prigo is still committed to the war in Ukraine, but if his message becomes fuck that war, people might switch sides in mass to avoid being sent to the meat grinder.
Maybe not just soldiers. I heard reports of Russians cheering when the drone struck that rich neighborhood. Russians really hate their own elites and might be onboard with joining a coup if they think that the Wagner group will make things better.
Which is fucking ridiculous because Prigozhin used to be a restaurant owner.
A *literal* military hobbyist has built a force that is currently a serious hazard to the Russian government, and that's the guy that they decided to throw under the bus and then get mad when he objected?
This doesn't seem like anyone had a moment of serious reflection about their desired "win" condition
Wagner doesn't really seem popular enough or strong enough to take on the rest of Russia, but what I wonder is if they need to or if they only need the strength and support to capture one of the thousands of nukes. Even if they wouldn't use it in any scenario it would still get them a strong position in negotiations.
Or what would happen if Putin randomly dies?
They don’t need to “take on the rest of russia” they just need to cut the head off the snake.
They’re not aiming to conquer, they’re aiming to overthrow
True, if they go that route. Military juntas and dictatorships like that are often short-lived though. I'm curious what their goal is in the long run. They said they were going after corrupt officials and the military leaders who had "misled Putin" so I wonder if they are trying to play themselves off as something else than a new government.
Step one a coupe is purges in this case it would be almost everyone in senior leadership. The reason I think this doesn't have a chance is that the MOD leadership lives are at stake they will gladly fuck over the war effort to go from 95 percent safe to being 99 percent saf
Yeah, could be. Since Putin is calling them traitors [apparently the Wagner group is saying they will aim for a new president now.](https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672510543247155202) I don't know how credible the source is but it looks more like a traditional coup if it's true at least.
It's Russia, they don't need to be popular, they just need to be scary enough that no one wants to risk overthrowing them. (Like Putin was until recently.)
They wouldn't be able to use the nukes as designed. Threat to hand one over(or it's relative bits) to the west or reconstructing into a dirty bomb maybe.
From what I am seeing on different TG channels (English, Russian and Armenian speaking) it seems they also have some support in the regular military as well. 217 Guards Airborne Division has joined them. Will others follow? How much support is there actually?
That's the real question. It pretty wild that Wagner rank and file are ready and willing to turn on Russian leadership. And if things are so bad that they are willing maybe other Russian regulars are too. It seems like Wagner boss is directing his ire at MoD rather than head of government l. Probably telling the boys they are why you don't have ammo food and pay
Well, I think that maybe 20% are actual trained soldiers vs conscripted prisoners. Still, they have much more experience on the battlefield than the Russian national guard.
This can turn very ugly really fast.
Russia has no independent judiciary. The Duma exists to rubber stamp Putin's decrees. There are no real functioning state institutions. There is no real rule of law. Putin is the state and everything else are just accessories around him. Meanwhile you have a collapsing population, an economy being run into the ground and lots of resentment within the general population being brutally bottled up. Within that context, Putin could be very well toppled by this revolt. What does the succession looks like? Can the different power groups that now exist under Putin trust the institutions as power brokers during the succession? If not, violent internal conflicts might break out, and just like that, you have a civil war and a nuclear failed state.
Is this really true? I have read that Putin outsources a lot of his power and more plays referee between factions. He's the bull rider and Russian politics is the bull. He must be careful not to get bucked or he may be gored.
Honestly? I’m hoping they both weaken each other enough for the Federation to truly fracture, which would remove it from the geopolitical stage and allow the possibility that some parts of it might emerge with a true representative government.
Of course the problem in ANY of these scenarios is civilian casualties and Rogue Nuclear Weapons, both of which scare the crap out of quite a few people.
>I really hope someone secures the nukes before Wagner and or any **fridge** group gets them.
I know what you mean and agree, but thank you for the chuckle as I contemplated Whirlpool, Frigidaire, Samsung or KitchenAid becoming Nuclear Powers.
That's not until 2057 after the Disney-Exxon-Sysco Subscription-based Forces invade the Economically Democratic People's Republic of Pfizer-IBM-YumBrands.
I guess that's fine, as long as that new dude can respect international sovereignty. The world clearly doesn't care if you fuck up your own country, but when you start fucking up other countries is where the problem is.
Will he? Surely he would know that would draw far more foreign interference and unite people against them even more, not a good position to be in when your country has just burned so much of its military power/lives/funds
At the moment the only thing that could get NATO directly involved is nuclear involvement. Guess they could step up the supply of weapons and such even further though.
It is the 485th day of the 3-day special operation. For the second time this month, Russia invades Russia to free Russia from those who have occupied Russia. The Russian army is thus the third strongest army in the conflict over Russia, behind the Russian army but still ahead of the Russian army. Meanwhile, influencers are panickingly proclaiming: "Don't panic."
I wouldn’t be surprise if western governments ran simulations of this scenario. In fact some news programs predicted this over a year ago as a possible outcome of the stalemate thus far. However, I wonder why it happened now, when the Ukrainian counteroffensive didn’t quite wow people as had hoped.
That's entirely not true. Yes, their vanguard was small (kind of Lenin's whole thing), but they had already been working with the factory workers for many years at that point and acutal support showed up in the form of not supporting the whites. Certainly there was no shortage of factory workers beating whites to death.
I want Putin to get taken out of power for sure. I never could’ve imagined this. It always just seemed like prigozhin would try to get rid of Shoigu. Makes me wonder if he has the support of some or all of the oligarchs. I can’t imagine him trying this otherwise.
May not need widespread support of the oligarchs if he has support of the CIA and/or other intelligence agencies, and if he has support of Russian people disenchanted with Putin.
A possible scenario is him sending out a message to Russian troops in Ukraine, and other people who want to join, asking for their support in taking over Moscow.
- CIA
Lmao. Bro let’s be serious here. He likely has the support of the oligarchs or it’s a way for Russia to get out of the war that he arranged with Putin. If the oligarchs don’t want the war or Putin thinks it’s bad for business, they’re gonna end the war. Obviously they want to incur the least shame possible.
I'm actually amazed that the propaganda apparatus is not full flinging this crap out there full throttle. It is never my fault, look the CIA is doing this!
This is where my thoughts are. I think Prigozhin just wanted the Ministry of Defense and he thought his successes in Ukraine and relationships would convince Putin to give him what he wanted as soon as he made a swipe for it. I think he expected to make a night of long knives style internal coup with Putin's blessing and remove the current military high command. Why else would he say he had no problem with Putin? Instead, Putin forced him to go full military coup when he declared them traitors. Whether or not that was a good move, when they were already preparing to go against your military's defensive units will remain to be seen.
But the offensive is in progress, Prig knows Russian forces are as tied down and spread out right now as they ever will be. He can defeat divisions individually, but not a concentrated attack.
By all reports, the MoD has been screwing Wagner since the beginning of the invasion. Using them as front line cannon fodder and denying needed supplies. Now they have tried to force Wagner to come under the control of the MoD as regular army. I do not know the truth as to whether Russia actually bombed Wagner troops; that might be a fabricated excuse for this coup. Certainly they are more militarily competent than their regular army counterparts; they have been the arm of Russia how many years?
To be clear, Wagner are war criminals and pieces of shit; I hope this ends with all the fuckers killing one another with minimum civilian casualties.
I almost wonder if this is Wagner going for a warcrimes avoidance move. Obviously he's gonna be the one tossed under the bus. Even if warcrimes were ordered,he's still responsible.
But if he takes Putin down, ends the war, and doesn't take power, he might avoid getting reamed criminally. Fuck off to spend his I'll got gains.
Good take. If anyone could see how this is all going to shake out, it would be Prigo. Instead of surrender or refusal to fight, he pivots and blames the MoD leadership and brings this whole conflict to a halt.
I believe he has not actually blamed Putin directly for this fuck up of an invasion- he's giving everyone an out except the higher ups at the MoD who were originally responsible for blowing smoke up Putin's ass.
Do you think he may have had a point? I can kinda believe that Putin was lied to regarding the military preparedness or Russia, seeing as how if he knew it's actual state he'd know it was crazy to start a war in Ukraine.
I bet it’s gonna be less Russian Revolution and more Decemberist Revolt. I don’t see Wagner successfully overthrowing the Kremlin, despite their early successes.
The only reason why Decemberists failed quite like they did was that they didn't want the revolution to go the French way. They deliberately decided to not start mass peasant revolts, cause that would have ended in utter bloodshed all over the country.
Yeah this'll fail I reckon. However, it's gonna play havoc on Russian defensive lines and logistics. This might be the opportunity Ukraine needs to finally make a breakthrough.
Wagner may not overthrow the Kremlin but this will take them off the battlefield and require reallocation of Russian troops from the Frontline to defend Moscow or at least replace Wagner troops that have turned. Russia is barely holding this war together as is. 25k of your own troops marching on your capital while trying to wage war against an opponent that appears to be better equipped than you is not going to go well.
Even so, it’s going to take *a lot* of manpower and resources to put this down. Which aren’t able to go to Ukraine, perhaps permanently. Regardless who wins, the Russian war effort loses.
I can’t see Wagner making this move without either pledges of support, or nothing left to lose.
Keep in mind, even if they do fail, they will possibly weaken Putin’s support and base enough for someone else to try (unless they fail utterly and spectacularly).
To blow up the nuclear facilities and blame it on Wagner? To use as a cover for retreating out of Ukraine without saying they lost the war? That's all I can think of.
**In Slavic mythology, Perun (Cyrillic: Перýн) is the highest god of the pantheon and the god of sky, thunder, lightning, storms, rain, law, war, fertility and oak trees. His other attributes were fire, mountains, wind, iris, eagle, firmament (in Indo-European languages, this was joined with the notion of the sky of stone), horses and carts, and weapons (hammer, axe (Axe of Perun), and arrow).**
More details here:
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Perun Is a YouTuber who does weekly hour-long lectures about military logistics and the war in Ukraine. He started doing these shortly after war broke out, and they have been extremely popular. I suspect that either this week or next he will talk about the events that led up to this whole situation with Wagner group.
Absolutely. While he does tend to focus on Russian incompetence and corruption, that is because there is a lot more to talk about there than with, say, American military incompetence and corruption.
In mother country we don’t end war in ukraine, war come to us!
On a side note I predict Putin pulls troops out of Ukraine so they can deal with “domestic” terrorist
This can't be treason for the same reason he liked to use the services of the Wagner group so much. They don't officially respond to Russian interests.
What a crybaby.
From a Ukrainian Telegram channel:
Latest news is that they've negotiated some kind of arrangement and Wagner group is standing down and turning around.
Wonder what Putin had to offer to get Prigo to agree
https://t.co/LgYl2sQjdt
Putin has compared prighozen to Lenin and Wagner to the bolsheviks staffing against wwi.
Boys, history is not over
Edit: history is over again my b
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No and no. NATO would much rather deal with a weakened Putin rather than a militant nationalist. NATO has also been cautious about what weapon systems to give to Ukraine because they fear military strikes into Russia might cause nuclear escalation. Openly supporting a potential militarized opposition to the regime might trip some of the same red lines for Russia.
I hate Putin, but the group that started the war in Sudan taking over does not really seem like an upgrade. I'm not surprised parts of the military are not in favor of the Ukraine war, though.
##### ###### #### > # [Putin accuses Wagner chief of ‘treason’ and vows to ‘neutralise’ uprising](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/24/720) > > > > The Russian president has accused Yevgeny Prigozhin of “treason” after the warlord launched an uprising against Russia’s army, taking over at least one major Russian city. > > In an emergency televised address on Saturday morning, [Vladimir Putin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/vladimir-putin) said “the fate of our people is being decided”, accusing the Wagner group headed by Prigozhin of “armed mutiny” and vowing to “neutralise” the uprising. > > “It’s an attempt to subvert us from inside. This is treason in the face of those who are fighting on the front,” a visibly angry Putin told the Russian public. > > “This is a stab in the back of our troops and the people of Russia.” > > In videos posted on social media early on Saturday, [Prigozhin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/yevgeny-prigozhin-the-hotdog-seller-who-rose-to-the-top-of-putin-war-machine-wagner-group) said he was at the headquarters of the Southern Military District (SMD) in Rostov-on-Don and demanded the defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, and Russia’s top general, Valery Gerasimov, come to the city, 1,000km (620 miles) south of Moscow. > > “We have arrived here, we want to receive the chief of the general staff and Shoigu,” Prigozhin said in one video, seated between two senior Russian generals. “Unless they come, we’ll be here, we’ll blockade the city of Rostov and head for Moscow.” > > Images circulating widely online showed what appeared to be Wagner troops with tanks and armoured vehicles surrounding government buildings in Rostov, where Prigozhin appears to have taken over a Russian army base. > > Several Russian media outlets also reported on Saturday that Wagner fighters had taken control of all military facilities in the city of Voronezh, about 310 miles south of Moscow. > > Late on Friday, Prigozhin claimed a Russian rocket attack had killed scores of his fighters, vowing to take “revenge” and “stop the evil brought by the military leadership of the country”. > > In a virtual declaration of war against his rivals in the Russian military, Prigozhin said he controlled 25,000 fighters and that together “we are going to figure out why the chaos is happening in the country”. > > “Anyone who wants should join. We need to end this mess,” he said. > > Russian security services have [moved swiftly against the Wagner boss](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/23/wagner-chief-accuses-russias-military-of-attack-and-says-evil-leadership-must-be-stopped), denouncing Prigozhin for “treachery” and ordering the mercenary group’s fighters to detain their commander. > > The defence ministry also published videos with several senior military generals who urged Prigozhin to stop what one commander described as a “coup”. > > “This is a stab in the back of the country and the president,” Gen Vladimir Alekseyev, the deputy head of Russia’s military intelligence agency, said in a video appeal to Wagner fighters. “This is a coup,” Alekseyev added. > > On Saturday morning, Prigozhin was seen meeting Russia’s deputy defence minister and the deputy head of the GRU, Russia’s main intelligence directorate. In the clip, Pirgozhin said he planned to march on to Moscow, adding that he had shot down three Russian helicopters that tried to resist him. > > Britain’s defence ministry said on Saturday that the Russian state was facing its greatest security challenge of recent times, following what it said appeared to be a move by Wagner group mercenary forces towards Moscow. > > “Over the coming hours, the loyalty of Russia’s security forces, and especially the Russian National Guard, will be key to how this crisis plays out,” Britain’s defence ministry said in a regular intelligence update. - - - - - - [Maintainer](https://www.reddit.com/user/urielsalis) | [Creator](https://www.reddit.com/user/subtepass) | [Source Code](https://github.com/urielsalis/empleadoEstatalBot) Summoning /u/CoverageAnalysisBot
We are watching history unfold before our eyes.
Just saw a video of Russian military bombing their own fuel depot so Wagner doesn't get it... crazy stuff.
*it hurt itself in its confusion*
They went to a scorched earth strategy really quick
It's what they know.
It’s all they know.
They took defensive ideas, what do you expect?
Ayyy eu4 gang unite
Shoot your own troops in the back, go scorched Earth
[удалено]
> Russians are stubborn that way. Win that way. Politics and current situation aside; 75%+ of German Soldiers that fell in WW2 fell on the Russian front and from the Russian invasion at the end of the war. The Russians killed more than the other Allies combined, by over 25%. We can mock their strategy today, but to portray it historically as them just being 'stubborn' isn't giving credit to the tactic, however brutal it is for their own people. They beat the Nazis and Napoleon back with this strategy, using their primary advantage when on defense, they have a very wide swath of land; keep your enemy struggling to even supply themselves and watch them rot in the open field.
"We'll ... choke their rivers with our dead!" - *Bart Simpson*
It's funny to me that their strategy of making their enemies struggle with supplies showed them it's brutal, yet they failed to supply their own troops and expected things to go different.
Another video shows it was damaged with an anti-aircraft rocket that got misdirected due to heat traps released. That's why on video with explosion it happens after the heli releases traps and moves to the side.
I'll get us some chips and sweets!
Caramel butter popcorn anyone?
i will take that ambrosia of the gods that you all call twizzlers
🥱 im good, thanks 🍿
I'll get the pop and drinks, Fanta ok?
Did you know Fanta was developed by the nazis in Germany during wwii because they couldn’t get Coke?
Don't forget the dip
Only reason I made the post above. Because of the rules I couldn't say a war with Wagner but they are close and he is trying to show power. He might even be taken over during this telecast.
[Popcorn at the ready](https://old.reddit.com/r/UkraineConflict/comments/14hotlq/magyar_jaggajagga_trolling_hard_right_now/) Edit: [Meanwhile Zelensky be like...](https://old.reddit.com/user/Albert_Poopdecker/comments/14hugch/zelensky_be_like/)
[удалено]
It's just a speedrun of the early 20th Century... Pandemic Rise of Fascism Titanic disaster Russian Revolution
Pretty impressive considering we can't buy cocaine soda like they could.
Lots of fent though
Perfect edit
At least a side note. Nobody is gonna give this guy the nuclear codes as the people in the bunker are most likely going to be loyal to Putin. As long as he maneuvers right and stops the Ukraine stuff he’ll be ok.
Yes. Every day of our lives, in fact.
Isn't this true all the time no matter what?
Damn, i can't tell if i should support Wagner, who before this were litteral terrorists, or if i should support Putin, cuz, yknow, its fucjing putin. still kinda a lose-lose scenario here
You can always cheer for a double radioactive poisoning.
True, i hope somehow both sides lose
but not with radioactivity, because wind and non combatants and other stuff.
"heartwarming: worst people you know are fighting"
Putin told Wagner to launch a fake "uprising". It's all for show; and to root out disloyal troops/agents. This is classic kgb misinformation.
Come to r/NonCredibleDefense if you want to shitpost about it.
What a sad commentary on how people engage with major world events as content. No one cares about your shitposting.
I can’t handle anymore popcorn, I’m stuffed
History happens every day.
Something, something, technically the truth....
I do that basically every day!
And some, like me, can just look out of the window and see it
Hey guys, i'm in crimea rn and i kinda witnessed at least 4 military passenger airplanes passing by (they can't be civil as there is a non-flight zone). I wonder if it may be some kind of politics evacuation? Cos for the past year it was mostly just jets and almost no passenger flights
That's a solid assumption. VIP evacuations might get very real in the next day or two. Stay safe, amigo!
Take care of yourself
Well as far as i can tell the wagners are marching on east from crimea, so i'm lucky again. There's videos of full-armed wagner forces in the middle of huge cities like Rostov, pretty fucked up if you ask me
There is even a video of civilians in Rostov shaking hands and hugging the Wagners.
I like the videos of people sweeping the streets with tanks in the background
Reuters are reporting that they are already past Voronezh too. [Link. ](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/wagner-head-suggests-his-mercenaries-headed-moscow-take-army-leadership-2023-06-24/) Apparently a helicopter opened fire on the convoy.
You're in crimea? Damn dude good luck out there
Yeah, thanks. My concern now is that they'll probably need to move forces from crimea to protect moscow from wagner, leaving it free for ukrainian army. Wether they're threatening civils well or not - there shall be conflicts with remaining russian troops, so in that case i'm fucked. It doesn't get better considering you can't leave crimea now cos i heard the highway leading from it is now sealed
Saw a tweet that Lukashenko and his family ~~fled Belarus~~ are conveniently on holiday in Turkey
Who's gonna rule Belarus now, the BNR?
>[landed on the Turkish Mediterranean coast in Bodrum at 05:15](https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/lukashenkos-business-jet-lands-turkey-102100919.html) They are here for a fucking holiday.
A good time to rise up against the war, good luck (:
What a wild situation. 25k troops is nothing to scoff at. Especially when you're in the middle of a war not only against another country but against the money of a lot of major powers like the US and UK. Obviously being from the west really limits my knowledge of the situation aside from propagandas and a few news articles here and there. So i'm curious as to what the actual current sentiment is amongst the average Russian citizen. Either way, things are trending massively downward for those in Russia that hold political power right now. Will be a really interesting week.
25k troops from arguably your most effective fighting force. Responsible for most of your gains.
It also appears that number might grow as soldiers join them.
hell, if prigo decides to raid prisons to recruit more mercenaries and end up freeing navalny and all the other political dissidents jailed for protests. their numbers are gonna bloat.
Lol, that's not he's going to grow, he'll just absorb regular army.
Why would the regular army be switching sides? As in how does it benefit them?
Don't have to fight Wagners? Like, the army doesn't exactly have great morale, and they will probably not defect unless forced to fight by superiors, buuuut Prigo is playing the 'stab in the back of common man by corrupt elites surrounding good king Putin', so he's reasonably popular. And why would he risk freeing opposition and dissidents? Putin already set him up for success by jailing them. At least that's my read. I am literally noone.
Well right now a lot of soldiers are being used as cannon fodder. If his message is that Putin and his goons are corrupt, soldiers might rather die to end that than invading a country for a made up cause. Idk if prigo is still committed to the war in Ukraine, but if his message becomes fuck that war, people might switch sides in mass to avoid being sent to the meat grinder.
Maybe not just soldiers. I heard reports of Russians cheering when the drone struck that rich neighborhood. Russians really hate their own elites and might be onboard with joining a coup if they think that the Wagner group will make things better.
Which is fucking ridiculous because Prigozhin used to be a restaurant owner. A *literal* military hobbyist has built a force that is currently a serious hazard to the Russian government, and that's the guy that they decided to throw under the bus and then get mad when he objected? This doesn't seem like anyone had a moment of serious reflection about their desired "win" condition
Prigo for "President" 2024.
Wagner doesn't really seem popular enough or strong enough to take on the rest of Russia, but what I wonder is if they need to or if they only need the strength and support to capture one of the thousands of nukes. Even if they wouldn't use it in any scenario it would still get them a strong position in negotiations. Or what would happen if Putin randomly dies?
They don’t need to “take on the rest of russia” they just need to cut the head off the snake. They’re not aiming to conquer, they’re aiming to overthrow
True, if they go that route. Military juntas and dictatorships like that are often short-lived though. I'm curious what their goal is in the long run. They said they were going after corrupt officials and the military leaders who had "misled Putin" so I wonder if they are trying to play themselves off as something else than a new government.
Step one a coupe is purges in this case it would be almost everyone in senior leadership. The reason I think this doesn't have a chance is that the MOD leadership lives are at stake they will gladly fuck over the war effort to go from 95 percent safe to being 99 percent saf
Yeah, could be. Since Putin is calling them traitors [apparently the Wagner group is saying they will aim for a new president now.](https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672510543247155202) I don't know how credible the source is but it looks more like a traditional coup if it's true at least.
Better than a Hitcockian thriller now.
Putin's special military operation *will* end in a decapitation strike after all, just not the one he thought
Apparently they are very popular in Russia and viewed kind of as military heroes.
It's Russia, they don't need to be popular, they just need to be scary enough that no one wants to risk overthrowing them. (Like Putin was until recently.)
They wouldn't be able to use the nukes as designed. Threat to hand one over(or it's relative bits) to the west or reconstructing into a dirty bomb maybe.
The guy is an oligarch so to me this looks like an intra Russian power grab
From what I am seeing on different TG channels (English, Russian and Armenian speaking) it seems they also have some support in the regular military as well. 217 Guards Airborne Division has joined them. Will others follow? How much support is there actually?
That's the real question. It pretty wild that Wagner rank and file are ready and willing to turn on Russian leadership. And if things are so bad that they are willing maybe other Russian regulars are too. It seems like Wagner boss is directing his ire at MoD rather than head of government l. Probably telling the boys they are why you don't have ammo food and pay
I think we will see a shakeup in the MoD very soon, even if the coup fails.
Well, I think that maybe 20% are actual trained soldiers vs conscripted prisoners. Still, they have much more experience on the battlefield than the Russian national guard.
> Obviously being from the west really limits my knowledge of the situation aside from propagandas glad to see that other people recognize this.
This can turn very ugly really fast. Russia has no independent judiciary. The Duma exists to rubber stamp Putin's decrees. There are no real functioning state institutions. There is no real rule of law. Putin is the state and everything else are just accessories around him. Meanwhile you have a collapsing population, an economy being run into the ground and lots of resentment within the general population being brutally bottled up. Within that context, Putin could be very well toppled by this revolt. What does the succession looks like? Can the different power groups that now exist under Putin trust the institutions as power brokers during the succession? If not, violent internal conflicts might break out, and just like that, you have a civil war and a nuclear failed state.
Is this really true? I have read that Putin outsources a lot of his power and more plays referee between factions. He's the bull rider and Russian politics is the bull. He must be careful not to get bucked or he may be gored.
Sure. He was playing the MoD against Wagner and now Wagner has had enough. So Wagner has bucked but not gored Putin yet.
is this when aliens reveal themselves and take our nukes away because russia disintegrates?
popular misconceptions. This is when the aliens invade, and steal all of our viagra stocks, maple syrup, and safron plants.
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Defenestration.
In worst case, during the fall out some of the nuke are lost and then transferred to the black market to be sold to the highest bidder.
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I mean, some of them probably don’t want to invade their neighboring countries and kill their own countrymen, so there’s that.
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Honestly? I’m hoping they both weaken each other enough for the Federation to truly fracture, which would remove it from the geopolitical stage and allow the possibility that some parts of it might emerge with a true representative government. Of course the problem in ANY of these scenarios is civilian casualties and Rogue Nuclear Weapons, both of which scare the crap out of quite a few people.
I really hope someone secures the nukes before Wagner and or any fridge group gets them
>I really hope someone secures the nukes before Wagner and or any **fridge** group gets them. I know what you mean and agree, but thank you for the chuckle as I contemplated Whirlpool, Frigidaire, Samsung or KitchenAid becoming Nuclear Powers.
I'll keep it in lol
That's not until 2057 after the Disney-Exxon-Sysco Subscription-based Forces invade the Economically Democratic People's Republic of Pfizer-IBM-YumBrands.
The fridge protected Indiana Jones…
Mercenary Warlord *Caterer*
I know of a lot of leaders who are in essence mercenary warlords, that doesn't mean much really
In essence a bean burrito is a fruit pie.
This is technically true.
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Who else is in the running for top dog?
Me. Do I get your votes?
There are no choices. This is an internal dispute, we just have to deal with the outcome.
The problem is those type of people rarely make it up to the top. It will probably be someone same like Putin or worse.
I guess that's fine, as long as that new dude can respect international sovereignty. The world clearly doesn't care if you fuck up your own country, but when you start fucking up other countries is where the problem is.
prigo is a straight up nazu, while putin is "just" a fascist. He will try to destroy ukraine instead of capture it.
I really don't think prigo cares about Ukraine, he's just there so he can get paid
Will he? Surely he would know that would draw far more foreign interference and unite people against them even more, not a good position to be in when your country has just burned so much of its military power/lives/funds
I’m curious how that might change NATO involvement.
At the moment the only thing that could get NATO directly involved is nuclear involvement. Guess they could step up the supply of weapons and such even further though.
If this guy overthrows Putin, you’ll see the differences pretty quick.
Instead of humanitarian and military aid, Ukraine now will start asking for popcorn and cola.
Have you seen this video from twitter where Ukrainian soldiers is eating popcorn watching news?
No, but I found this: https://twitter.com/IuliiaMendel/status/1672354536659337216
It is the 485th day of the 3-day special operation. For the second time this month, Russia invades Russia to free Russia from those who have occupied Russia. The Russian army is thus the third strongest army in the conflict over Russia, behind the Russian army but still ahead of the Russian army. Meanwhile, influencers are panickingly proclaiming: "Don't panic."
Love this!
https://youtu.be/vm1U5E44W90?t=130 very fitting onion report
I wouldn’t be surprise if western governments ran simulations of this scenario. In fact some news programs predicted this over a year ago as a possible outcome of the stalemate thus far. However, I wonder why it happened now, when the Ukrainian counteroffensive didn’t quite wow people as had hoped.
I said at the start that Putin would face some sort of rebellion or uprising, I'm honestly shocked it's taken THIS long.
Well notably, this "uprising" doesn't appear to have much of a civilian component we can see yet.
That’s pretty normal. Lenin and the bolsheviks didn’t have that much civilian support either.
That's entirely not true. Yes, their vanguard was small (kind of Lenin's whole thing), but they had already been working with the factory workers for many years at that point and acutal support showed up in the form of not supporting the whites. Certainly there was no shortage of factory workers beating whites to death.
Russians just sitting around waiting for it to get worse
I want Putin to get taken out of power for sure. I never could’ve imagined this. It always just seemed like prigozhin would try to get rid of Shoigu. Makes me wonder if he has the support of some or all of the oligarchs. I can’t imagine him trying this otherwise.
Or he thought he is dead anyway. Than you try this even without wide support.
May not need widespread support of the oligarchs if he has support of the CIA and/or other intelligence agencies, and if he has support of Russian people disenchanted with Putin. A possible scenario is him sending out a message to Russian troops in Ukraine, and other people who want to join, asking for their support in taking over Moscow.
- CIA Lmao. Bro let’s be serious here. He likely has the support of the oligarchs or it’s a way for Russia to get out of the war that he arranged with Putin. If the oligarchs don’t want the war or Putin thinks it’s bad for business, they’re gonna end the war. Obviously they want to incur the least shame possible.
I'm actually amazed that the propaganda apparatus is not full flinging this crap out there full throttle. It is never my fault, look the CIA is doing this!
This is where my thoughts are. I think Prigozhin just wanted the Ministry of Defense and he thought his successes in Ukraine and relationships would convince Putin to give him what he wanted as soon as he made a swipe for it. I think he expected to make a night of long knives style internal coup with Putin's blessing and remove the current military high command. Why else would he say he had no problem with Putin? Instead, Putin forced him to go full military coup when he declared them traitors. Whether or not that was a good move, when they were already preparing to go against your military's defensive units will remain to be seen.
Ever since this story broke, I’ve been convinced that this was a major component of the Ukrainian counteroffensive.
We don’t actually know what’s happening with the counteroffensive. We’ve only had details from Russia and super vague statements from Ukraine.
But the offensive is in progress, Prig knows Russian forces are as tied down and spread out right now as they ever will be. He can defeat divisions individually, but not a concentrated attack.
By all reports, the MoD has been screwing Wagner since the beginning of the invasion. Using them as front line cannon fodder and denying needed supplies. Now they have tried to force Wagner to come under the control of the MoD as regular army. I do not know the truth as to whether Russia actually bombed Wagner troops; that might be a fabricated excuse for this coup. Certainly they are more militarily competent than their regular army counterparts; they have been the arm of Russia how many years? To be clear, Wagner are war criminals and pieces of shit; I hope this ends with all the fuckers killing one another with minimum civilian casualties.
I almost wonder if this is Wagner going for a warcrimes avoidance move. Obviously he's gonna be the one tossed under the bus. Even if warcrimes were ordered,he's still responsible. But if he takes Putin down, ends the war, and doesn't take power, he might avoid getting reamed criminally. Fuck off to spend his I'll got gains.
Good take. If anyone could see how this is all going to shake out, it would be Prigo. Instead of surrender or refusal to fight, he pivots and blames the MoD leadership and brings this whole conflict to a halt. I believe he has not actually blamed Putin directly for this fuck up of an invasion- he's giving everyone an out except the higher ups at the MoD who were originally responsible for blowing smoke up Putin's ass.
Do you think he may have had a point? I can kinda believe that Putin was lied to regarding the military preparedness or Russia, seeing as how if he knew it's actual state he'd know it was crazy to start a war in Ukraine.
I bet it’s gonna be less Russian Revolution and more Decemberist Revolt. I don’t see Wagner successfully overthrowing the Kremlin, despite their early successes.
The only reason why Decemberists failed quite like they did was that they didn't want the revolution to go the French way. They deliberately decided to not start mass peasant revolts, cause that would have ended in utter bloodshed all over the country.
Yeah this'll fail I reckon. However, it's gonna play havoc on Russian defensive lines and logistics. This might be the opportunity Ukraine needs to finally make a breakthrough.
Wagner may not overthrow the Kremlin but this will take them off the battlefield and require reallocation of Russian troops from the Frontline to defend Moscow or at least replace Wagner troops that have turned. Russia is barely holding this war together as is. 25k of your own troops marching on your capital while trying to wage war against an opponent that appears to be better equipped than you is not going to go well.
Even so, it’s going to take *a lot* of manpower and resources to put this down. Which aren’t able to go to Ukraine, perhaps permanently. Regardless who wins, the Russian war effort loses.
I can’t see Wagner making this move without either pledges of support, or nothing left to lose. Keep in mind, even if they do fail, they will possibly weaken Putin’s support and base enough for someone else to try (unless they fail utterly and spectacularly).
Imagine if this is just a distraction for the next step of their plan tho
To blow up the nuclear facilities and blame it on Wagner? To use as a cover for retreating out of Ukraine without saying they lost the war? That's all I can think of.
Wouldn't know tbh, but last time wagner was saying crazy shit they took bakhmut after eh?
[turtles all the way down](https://i.imgur.com/moRaZvZ.jpg)
https://youtu.be/vm1U5E44W90?t=130
Nah propaganda doesn’t exist in this war according to Reddit. Everything we read is 100% accurate information at all times.
Perun gonna be spicy this week
Yee
What's Perun?
**In Slavic mythology, Perun (Cyrillic: Перýн) is the highest god of the pantheon and the god of sky, thunder, lightning, storms, rain, law, war, fertility and oak trees. His other attributes were fire, mountains, wind, iris, eagle, firmament (in Indo-European languages, this was joined with the notion of the sky of stone), horses and carts, and weapons (hammer, axe (Axe of Perun), and arrow).** More details here:
*This comment was left automatically (by a bot). If I don't get this right, don't get mad at me, I'm still learning!*
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Perun Is a YouTuber who does weekly hour-long lectures about military logistics and the war in Ukraine. He started doing these shortly after war broke out, and they have been extremely popular. I suspect that either this week or next he will talk about the events that led up to this whole situation with Wagner group.
Ohhh, nice, is he fairly neutral?
Absolutely. While he does tend to focus on Russian incompetence and corruption, that is because there is a lot more to talk about there than with, say, American military incompetence and corruption.
2030 cod looks crazy guys
[Zelensky...](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzZCWGEXoAABxNd.jpg:large)
In mother country we don’t end war in ukraine, war come to us! On a side note I predict Putin pulls troops out of Ukraine so they can deal with “domestic” terrorist
Jesus March to Moscow? Time for the offensive to rally, let’s get Crimea back 🇺🇦
This can't be treason for the same reason he liked to use the services of the Wagner group so much. They don't officially respond to Russian interests. What a crybaby.
From a Ukrainian Telegram channel: Latest news is that they've negotiated some kind of arrangement and Wagner group is standing down and turning around. Wonder what Putin had to offer to get Prigo to agree
A new challenger appears
Oh no! Russia nuked itself in its own confusion!
Just like he rolled over Ukraine in a week.
cry baby cry
https://t.co/LgYl2sQjdt Putin has compared prighozen to Lenin and Wagner to the bolsheviks staffing against wwi. Boys, history is not over Edit: history is over again my b
He says as he goes hiding in a hole somewhere like saddam.
It’s happening
So, what's the narrative in telegram scene? Prigo saving Putin from Shoigu? Prigo is traitor? Elaborate plan?
Well this aged like milk.
I might be crazy but what if this is Putins way to get out of Ukrainian war
The coup on putin failed btw
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Would NATO countries have the legal means and willingness to support Wagner or is that out of the question?
That is something the West *definitely* isn't going to want. Foreign meddling in internal shooting wars rarely ends well for anyone.
As if that’s ever stopped them
Do you WANT to get nuked?
No and no. NATO would much rather deal with a weakened Putin rather than a militant nationalist. NATO has also been cautious about what weapon systems to give to Ukraine because they fear military strikes into Russia might cause nuclear escalation. Openly supporting a potential militarized opposition to the regime might trip some of the same red lines for Russia.
One way or another Russia’s war of conquest of Ukraine is over now.
I'm calling it now that Putin going to nuke Moscow.
Brought to you by the CIA
So he’s given him no other choice but to rebel with all of his force. Great.
This photo of him looks like Mike from Breaking Bad or Better Call Saul
and then things got worse
Russian Revolution 2, Electric Boogaloo
I hate Putin, but the group that started the war in Sudan taking over does not really seem like an upgrade. I'm not surprised parts of the military are not in favor of the Ukraine war, though.
Ohh he’s fucking dead