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So news just in, Wagner is RETREATING back to their camps. Confirmed via a voice message from Prigozhin. Some deal must've been made under the table otherwise this makes ZERO sense.
It's a mercenary group. Money and resources talk. Makes a lot of sense to me.
Prigozhin isnt afraid of being killed. If he was, he wouldn't have launched this campaign. He was promised more resources and $ to continue the fight.
I think he'll be killed now anyway tbh. No way smth this big goes unpunished. He'll be sent back to the lines and he'll likely die in suspicious circumstances.
I really think this was all just an act to get more money/supplies/land/etc from Putin.
Either that or the bid for what side Wagner is on just got raised again, outbidding the west this time
The top of the MOD is gone. Minister and many other people are going to lose their jobs. They will most likely be replaced by Wagner men. Putin blinked, and I believe he will be replaced some time in the future. The whole world saw this.
I personally thought the chances Wagner would reach Moscow were slim. They have no air support, no ammunition supplies, are out numbered and Moscow was a 1200km march away on an expressway.
It's more believable to me he was 'flipping the table over' to force some sort of concession from Putin he wasn't able to get via more diplomatic means. He's made it plenty clear in previous videos he wasn't pleased with the support the Russian army provided Wagner mercenaries in Bakhmut and there have been signs that the Russian state has been making moves to absorb his mercenaries into the official Russian army curtailing his power.
If there had been a civil war in Russia though, I thought it would have been the best chance for Ukraine to force Russian retreat and win the war. As it is now, I think there's going to be a long stalemate.
After this debacle I would be surprised if Putin would sanction new leaders who are Prigozhin underlings. It would be better to wipe them out. More likely it would be people who are agreeable to him.
Putin must have plans now for Prigozhin too when the time is right. The guy is far too unstable it's like a double edge sword.
It has already been said on other blogs that wagner will control the Russian air force now too. There are basically two Russian governments now if true.
Credible defense is saying this deal gave Prigozhin some pretty serious concessions. Enough that many Russian military bloggers are saying that Putin is likely only the second most powerful person in Russia now. To give a seven hour nervous speech, calling someone a nazi 50 times, and than giving said person concessions a few hours later doesn't look confident, nor stable.
Assuming that A) wagner's actually retreating now and b) everything that happened earlier was real, why would anyone trust him now? He's shown himself to be a completely loose cannon, so does he really think his neck's not on the line? I just can't fathom them all going back to normalcy as if nothing happened tbh.
Is there conclusive proof this was an actual coup attempt?
I've seen a few videos, all of which are extremely suspicious.
1 - flares burning in a trench. No casualties, no signs of a missile attack. The video was used as justification to start the coup.
2 - A convoy heading to Moscow. Only shows 5 military vehicles on a highway.
3 - An explosion on the highway. The explosion's target wasn't shown.
4 - 3 military units laying down across a defense building. They're surrounded by civilians with smartphones. It looked more like a TV production than a coup.
5 - The convoy faces almost no resistance, stops midway through, and all charges are dropped.
What evidence did I miss? All of this looks like extremely staged propaganda.
Prigozhin was not going after Putin he was going after Shoigu and Gerasimov. They got whiff of the situation so they left before Wagner reached them. When Prigozhin realized they were gone, he stopped.
Crazy as he is, Prigozhin is genuinely dedicated to Russian cause and takes it very personally that others are not as dedicated as him (the cause being: imperialism, colonization, and genocide)
Yes, plenty. Most recent was is that Putin just got his most trusted general Sergei Surovikin arrested for not stopping Wagner. Western media basically played Putin by showing a video of Surovikin where he speaks about how he knows about Wagner’s plans because Prigozhin had threatened to do so multiple times in the past. He had stopped him before, but recent events were the straw that broke the camel’s back and got Prigozhin to march to Moscow. Putin believed the videos released in Western Media, and blames Surovikin for letting this happen. Moscow Times just broke the news on that.
Nobody involved, on the Wagner or Government side disputes the basic facts. Wagner took over Rosov-On-Don and it's military bases, they sent an armed convoy towards Moscow, they shot down a bunch of helicopters and a plane, and Prigozhin agreed to asylum in Belarus. None of that's in contention.
If Wagner was working with Russia to stage a fake coup, they would not dispute it.
If you have the photographic evidence, and it has some sort of confirmation of date and time and sides, please link it.
lol indeed. You're right, they're done pretending to be at each others throats. Complete lock step unity and teamwork from here on out. It was all a ploy! To accomplish what? Who knows!? But this is definitely the end of it.
What military genius! Instead of using these resources and manpower to take more land in Ukraine, they went and invaded themselves, created total panic in Russia, only to troll online supporters of Ukraine.
Yes, and the SMO is only going to last 3 days. You must have a learning disability if you really believe what you're writing. Like I said earlier, I absolutely loved this "theater."
To route out Putin detractors, and trick Ukrainian soldiers to advance their counter offensive throwing more men into the meat grinder. It makes sense if you actually put a little bit of thought into it. Prigozhin got off with no charges, and is just going back to Putin's war, yet you somehow think they were at each other's throats. Lol.
There will definitely be a part 2, but we don't know the release date. A stunt like this can't end willy nilly like this, one of Putin or Prigo is gonna go down in the coming times.
There can be one for sure. But I'm not betting on it.
I mean assuming this wasn't theater which it so obviously was putin is gonna keep a close eye on prigozhin.
I don't think the odds favour prigo anyway.
We have yet to see what concessions Prigo accepted to decide to turn back, and it's very likely that involved not only more support of arms and funding, but also Prigo/Wagner loyalists having more power in the defense ministry at expense of Putin loyalists who he has been criticizing.
If this is how it pans out, it drastically raises odds of Prigo being able to execute coup in future as well, although odds are still stacked against him.
If there will be a coup I don't think it will happen before the war takes a decisive turn for or against Russia.
Prigo is also not stupid enough to do that while the counteroffensive is ongoing.
Even as a fakeout it was still a seriously weird decision to actually shoot those helis and planes down; experienced and useful Pilots are one of the few things Russia really can’t afford to lose and is basically incapable of replacing on any feasible timescale relevant to the war
Clearly the next Russian government fakeout will be of Putin getting black bagged and shot dead in a ditch. That'll really show those western fascist Ukrain symps who's in charge.
Maybe theater from Wagner's end, but unlikely that it was from Moscow's side. While the slava ukraine guys celebrated too soon, we still have to see what impact this whole stunt has on the Russian power structure in the coming days and weeks.
they shot down multiple Russian aircrafts, bombed a fuel depot, there were firefights and they tore apart streets connecting to Moscow, and Putin fled to his bunker. Putin's regime sure didn't seem to have been informed about this performance
Well the preparation has been happening for weeks, Prigo has been making statements against defense minister even before the capture of Bakhmut. But yeah the pro ukraine crowd and CIA will be extremely disappointed that this shitshow barely lasted a weekend lmao.
Honestly it might not be over. Wagner guys in Africa and the Middle East are apparently still getting ready to head to Russia. This might just be a pause for the night, as Prigos men have been on the move for 18 hours.
My least favourite type of person is someone who’s born into a “good passport”, but acts as if the world is a Marvel movie, with everyone from an “enemy nation” being the same homogenous mass.
Clutch pearls where someone will care you sanctimonious prick. That's also a long way to go for just "Waaaah, I'm Russian and I don't like what you said."
😘
If it’s sanctimonious to not judge people by their birthplace then yes, of course I am, and proud of it. 🤷🏻♀️
Half Russian half Ukrainian, cry about it.
I think you’re struggling to understand, but that’s okay, don’t worry. Yeah, I’m judging people with US/EU passports *who automatically wish the worst for people with “enemy” passports* like Russia, Iraq, Iran, China, Cuba, whatever. (This is you with your “those pricks deserve civil war” comment.) Because they/you are lacking the self-reflection to understand that your birthplace is a lottery. That is not the same as “judging all US/EU people”, though it’s telling that you think it is! The difference is, I decide by your actions, not where you’re born. It’s actually very easy.
I’d never say something like “all people from x country deserve war”, because I’m not a weirdo.
Every citizen of a country is responsible for the acts of the country. A nation doesn't have a "good passport" because of some national resource or something unobtainable for others. A country is the sum of its people.
Unfortunately, my friend, this is not how the world works and if you were unfortunate enough to ever live in an authoritarian country for even a short while, you’d understand that. Personally, I don’t hold all Russians responsible for Ukraine in exactly the same way I don’t hold all Saudis responsible for Yemen, all Israeli citizens responsible for deaths in Palestine, all US citizens responsible for Iraq, the list is endless.
Where are you from, may I ask? Some reflection might be useful here.
Yeah I noticed that later too, while I take back my words on being from ex-colonizer (if one doesn't count historical forced assimilation of Sami tribes), the guy still has no empathy for virtue signalling that hard.
Russia's military and police numbers alone probably rival the entire population of Norway, not sure how one would rebel against that, that too in a nation with history of revolutions that made life worse than before.
Europe is a place where they until relatively recently decorated roads with severed limbs of the peasants. Needless to say that the change did not come by complaining about how unrealistic invoking the change is. This is exactly how the world works, it’s just a very uncomfortable concept for many as it introduces people to the concept of personal responsibility, and that deciding to do nothing is a decision like any other.
Not sure what point you're trying to make, that Russia should actively rebel and overthrow their govt? Why would they do that, every time they've engaged in revolution (1917, 1991) things got worse for them, their biggest nightmare isn't Putin's dictatorship, but rather the chaos and incompetence of the 90s, which might return if people revolt again.
Even I would love to know what active reason there is for the Russian masses to want to overthrow Putin and take that risk.
Point I am trying to make is that if it is acceptable to you to have a corrupt strongman at the helm while watching every country around you improving their living standards. Then that is exactly what you’ll get, it’s not a rocket science. In Norway, it’s not acceptable and that’s why they don’t get those people in power.
I also love how you stated that that Sami assimilation, and not pillaging, raping and enslaving half of Europe, is the main problem in norways “non-colonial” history.
I am from Norway, one of the "best passports" in the world, while being married with someone from one of the worst. Have lived in Bolivia for quite some time and the biggest cultural difference I see is the lack of taking responsibility for what happens around you.
A country is not created top down, its created bottom up. Every single day I am grateful for the country I live in and work every single day to make it stay this way for my children. That involves making a lot of decisions that are negative to my own lifestyle or economy. It involves cleaning litter or fixing up the local playground for free, even though it's not your responsibility.
If you demand more from your politicians than you do for yourself, then you are the problem.
This is very sweet idealistic talk - you are welcome to visit China/Russia any time and help to overthrow Putin and Xi any time with your litter picking.
Or simply move. If you cannot change the tyrant in charge of your country, then stop providing him with your labor, tax income and support.
If you are very old or sick then you are excused, but if you are a young and healthy person then show support to those that deserve it.
Yes, it is indeed extremely easy to move with a Russian, Iranian, Cuban passport, “just move” - from the same book as “just overthrow the government”, yes? - it seems you have solved all these problems. You should share your ideas with the UN and we will have no more victims of political repression.
There is absolutely people that genuinely think like that, if this guy is indeed a troll at least serves as an example of how stupid they actually look when they say this dumb stuff
> Or simply move.
Just move, you say? Lets see which country has been preventing Russians from emigrating Russia seeking better lives for themselves:
https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/02/03/norway/russia-dont-jeopardize-asylum-seekers
https://www.newsweek.com/russians-fleeing-mobilization-see-key-gateway-europe-cut-off-norway-storskog-1748133
Jeg er norsk også, du kan ikke påvirke din regjeringen når de kan sende politi til huset ditt for en insta innlegg. Folk er ikke organisert og for redde til å gjøre noe.
Selvfølgelig kan du det. Man gjør det ved å ikke stemme inn en regjering som går for slike tiltak. Vi har en sterk stat på grunn av veldig stor tillit til staten fra befolkningen. Det er den tilliten vi har som gjør at Norge, og Skandinavia, er så velfungerende. Når den er vekk så vil levestandarden vår synke som en stein til nivå på resten av Europa.
Hvis du er godtroende nok til å tro på at Putin vant hvert valg han deltok i tror jeg ikke denne diskusjonen kommer til å bidra med noe. Over 100 representanter fra Kremln i den russiske regjeringen signerte et åpent brev i fjor hvor de tryglet Putin om å ikke fortsette. Hvis offentlige representanter har 0 innflytelse er det naivt å tro at befolkningen har det ved å bare kunne stemme.
Vi lever godt i Norge og har evne og insentiv til å oppføre oss sånn du beskriver fordi når vi klager blir det tatt opp og diskutert i media eller lest og diskutert som kronikker i etablerte aviser. VG og Aftenposten publiserer kronikker om alt fra "kulturkrig" til stjernetegn hver dag. Dette er absolutt ikke noe som skjer i Russland.
Å starte, eller delta i en revolusjon krever mye, det kan kreve livet ditt. Hvis du da har f.eks. familie vil din og deres overlevelse komme først da de kan risikere å miste sin forsørger eller sine egne liv. Annerkjenn at dette ikke er en lett avgjørelse, og i det minste avstå fra å komme med ignorante og forenklede prinsippfaste påstander som at et lands internasjonale relasjoner og politikk alltid er en refleksjon av befolkningen. Det varierer fra land til land og i Russland er det en maktsøkende sosiopat som allierte seg med russiske milliardærer for å kjøpe til seg sin egen regjering.
Edit: for ikke mange år tilbake stemte faktisk en stor del av det russiske folket på en motkandidat. Denne presidentkandidaten blir fengslet...
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1674136248364027929?s=20
Wagner’s mutiny scared Putin enough to arrest Russia’s most competent general.
#🥳
I didn’t think it would work with Western media spreading the rumor that Surovikin already knew about Wagner’s BS, but that’s what happens when your own media is so much worse you actually trust one great lie that we can truly say it’s from CIA.
# 🥳🥳🥳
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So news just in, Wagner is RETREATING back to their camps. Confirmed via a voice message from Prigozhin. Some deal must've been made under the table otherwise this makes ZERO sense.
It's a mercenary group. Money and resources talk. Makes a lot of sense to me. Prigozhin isnt afraid of being killed. If he was, he wouldn't have launched this campaign. He was promised more resources and $ to continue the fight.
I think he'll be killed now anyway tbh. No way smth this big goes unpunished. He'll be sent back to the lines and he'll likely die in suspicious circumstances.
I really think this was all just an act to get more money/supplies/land/etc from Putin. Either that or the bid for what side Wagner is on just got raised again, outbidding the west this time
The top of the MOD is gone. Minister and many other people are going to lose their jobs. They will most likely be replaced by Wagner men. Putin blinked, and I believe he will be replaced some time in the future. The whole world saw this.
Yep, once a strong man shows any weakness his days are numbered. Putin my get Gaddafied by years end.
I personally thought the chances Wagner would reach Moscow were slim. They have no air support, no ammunition supplies, are out numbered and Moscow was a 1200km march away on an expressway. It's more believable to me he was 'flipping the table over' to force some sort of concession from Putin he wasn't able to get via more diplomatic means. He's made it plenty clear in previous videos he wasn't pleased with the support the Russian army provided Wagner mercenaries in Bakhmut and there have been signs that the Russian state has been making moves to absorb his mercenaries into the official Russian army curtailing his power. If there had been a civil war in Russia though, I thought it would have been the best chance for Ukraine to force Russian retreat and win the war. As it is now, I think there's going to be a long stalemate.
It is over already. He got what he wanted. The top of the MoD is going to be replaced. Most likely with his own people.
After this debacle I would be surprised if Putin would sanction new leaders who are Prigozhin underlings. It would be better to wipe them out. More likely it would be people who are agreeable to him. Putin must have plans now for Prigozhin too when the time is right. The guy is far too unstable it's like a double edge sword.
Depends, Prigozhin has shown himself to be a better leader now than Putin, who hasn't made a good decision as of late.
It has already been said on other blogs that wagner will control the Russian air force now too. There are basically two Russian governments now if true.
Credible defense is saying this deal gave Prigozhin some pretty serious concessions. Enough that many Russian military bloggers are saying that Putin is likely only the second most powerful person in Russia now. To give a seven hour nervous speech, calling someone a nazi 50 times, and than giving said person concessions a few hours later doesn't look confident, nor stable.
Wen Russia/Russia conflict megathread?
It’s over already
Assuming that A) wagner's actually retreating now and b) everything that happened earlier was real, why would anyone trust him now? He's shown himself to be a completely loose cannon, so does he really think his neck's not on the line? I just can't fathom them all going back to normalcy as if nothing happened tbh.
According to unconfirmed rumors Prigo got Shoigu out and “relaxing vacations” in Africa
🥳
Is there conclusive proof this was an actual coup attempt? I've seen a few videos, all of which are extremely suspicious. 1 - flares burning in a trench. No casualties, no signs of a missile attack. The video was used as justification to start the coup. 2 - A convoy heading to Moscow. Only shows 5 military vehicles on a highway. 3 - An explosion on the highway. The explosion's target wasn't shown. 4 - 3 military units laying down across a defense building. They're surrounded by civilians with smartphones. It looked more like a TV production than a coup. 5 - The convoy faces almost no resistance, stops midway through, and all charges are dropped. What evidence did I miss? All of this looks like extremely staged propaganda.
Prigozhin was not going after Putin he was going after Shoigu and Gerasimov. They got whiff of the situation so they left before Wagner reached them. When Prigozhin realized they were gone, he stopped. Crazy as he is, Prigozhin is genuinely dedicated to Russian cause and takes it very personally that others are not as dedicated as him (the cause being: imperialism, colonization, and genocide)
Is there evidence available that his attempt was real? I'm just curious if I missed something with the videos made about the incident.
Yes, plenty. Most recent was is that Putin just got his most trusted general Sergei Surovikin arrested for not stopping Wagner. Western media basically played Putin by showing a video of Surovikin where he speaks about how he knows about Wagner’s plans because Prigozhin had threatened to do so multiple times in the past. He had stopped him before, but recent events were the straw that broke the camel’s back and got Prigozhin to march to Moscow. Putin believed the videos released in Western Media, and blames Surovikin for letting this happen. Moscow Times just broke the news on that.
There's no actual evidence that Surovikin has been arrested and his daughter says he's fine. We'll see.
Nobody involved, on the Wagner or Government side disputes the basic facts. Wagner took over Rosov-On-Don and it's military bases, they sent an armed convoy towards Moscow, they shot down a bunch of helicopters and a plane, and Prigozhin agreed to asylum in Belarus. None of that's in contention.
If Wagner was staging a fake coup, that could happen. This event looks as fake as the drone attack last month in Moscow.
Fuck Putin
It's nice that Wagner are handing their arms to the Russian army to in turn hand it over to the Ukrainians
It was all theater like I expected lol. Pro ukr guys were so happy imao.
Weird theater to shoot down 9 of your own aircraft and make your government look like a glass house.
Bro you just don’t get it, we’re not smart enough for Putin’s 5D chess.
I think we're at 12D by now. I noticed in the comments that we periodically have to add more Ds
Yet again, my degenerate westoid brain lacks the ability to comprehend such machinations. Truly a loss for me.
Is there any proof 9 aircraft were shot down?
No
Nobody in Wagner disputes that it happened, and there's photographic evidence.
If Wagner was working with Russia to stage a fake coup, they would not dispute it. If you have the photographic evidence, and it has some sort of confirmation of date and time and sides, please link it.
Descarte's Demon is feeding false perceptions into your brain, it's all false man, reality is a lie!
Go on then, prove it's a lie. All I'm asking for is evidence that can contradict the theory.
I really, honestly don't care. You can believe whatever you like.
I'm not trying to believe anything, I just want some real evidence. I haven't seen any credible evidence to prove this isn't some Russian scam.
What is it you think might be a Russian scam, and why do you think it’s plausible?
K
L
Some bizarre ass theater then. Wagner shot down Russian helicopters and blew up Russian fuel depots for the lulz? Yea man, they sure got us good!
I guess they had to do that to make it look authentic.
Personally, I loved this play. Can't wait for part 2.
Ehh I don't think there will be any so don't hold your breath lol.
lol indeed. You're right, they're done pretending to be at each others throats. Complete lock step unity and teamwork from here on out. It was all a ploy! To accomplish what? Who knows!? But this is definitely the end of it.
Pro ukr guys masturbating to the thought of Russia having a civil war are so disappointed lol. Too obvious
What military genius! Instead of using these resources and manpower to take more land in Ukraine, they went and invaded themselves, created total panic in Russia, only to troll online supporters of Ukraine.
Yeah cuz I believe prigo did a rebellion that lasted 1 day. Come on you can do better. The disappointment from u is too obvious.
Yes, and the SMO is only going to last 3 days. You must have a learning disability if you really believe what you're writing. Like I said earlier, I absolutely loved this "theater."
Projecting disappointment after backing a dying superpower? Couldn't be you.
To route out Putin detractors, and trick Ukrainian soldiers to advance their counter offensive throwing more men into the meat grinder. It makes sense if you actually put a little bit of thought into it. Prigozhin got off with no charges, and is just going back to Putin's war, yet you somehow think they were at each other's throats. Lol.
I was thinking Putin would blame the west for paying Wagner to invade, but that doesn't match with dropping all charges.
There will definitely be a part 2, but we don't know the release date. A stunt like this can't end willy nilly like this, one of Putin or Prigo is gonna go down in the coming times.
There can be one for sure. But I'm not betting on it. I mean assuming this wasn't theater which it so obviously was putin is gonna keep a close eye on prigozhin. I don't think the odds favour prigo anyway.
We have yet to see what concessions Prigo accepted to decide to turn back, and it's very likely that involved not only more support of arms and funding, but also Prigo/Wagner loyalists having more power in the defense ministry at expense of Putin loyalists who he has been criticizing. If this is how it pans out, it drastically raises odds of Prigo being able to execute coup in future as well, although odds are still stacked against him.
If there will be a coup I don't think it will happen before the war takes a decisive turn for or against Russia. Prigo is also not stupid enough to do that while the counteroffensive is ongoing.
Even as a fakeout it was still a seriously weird decision to actually shoot those helis and planes down; experienced and useful Pilots are one of the few things Russia really can’t afford to lose and is basically incapable of replacing on any feasible timescale relevant to the war
Clearly the next Russian government fakeout will be of Putin getting black bagged and shot dead in a ditch. That'll really show those western fascist Ukrain symps who's in charge.
Maybe theater from Wagner's end, but unlikely that it was from Moscow's side. While the slava ukraine guys celebrated too soon, we still have to see what impact this whole stunt has on the Russian power structure in the coming days and weeks.
I mean we will have to see yes but it is indeed theater. Like it lasted what 1 day? Lol
they shot down multiple Russian aircrafts, bombed a fuel depot, there were firefights and they tore apart streets connecting to Moscow, and Putin fled to his bunker. Putin's regime sure didn't seem to have been informed about this performance
Well the preparation has been happening for weeks, Prigo has been making statements against defense minister even before the capture of Bakhmut. But yeah the pro ukraine crowd and CIA will be extremely disappointed that this shitshow barely lasted a weekend lmao.
Honestly it might not be over. Wagner guys in Africa and the Middle East are apparently still getting ready to head to Russia. This might just be a pause for the night, as Prigos men have been on the move for 18 hours.
Agree with u there.
It feels like either theatre or someone got Prigozhin by the balls, but I still can't comprehend what exactly it achieved
A civil war is just what those pricks deserve.
My least favourite type of person is someone who’s born into a “good passport”, but acts as if the world is a Marvel movie, with everyone from an “enemy nation” being the same homogenous mass.
Clutch pearls where someone will care you sanctimonious prick. That's also a long way to go for just "Waaaah, I'm Russian and I don't like what you said." 😘
If it’s sanctimonious to not judge people by their birthplace then yes, of course I am, and proud of it. 🤷🏻♀️ Half Russian half Ukrainian, cry about it.
> If it’s sanctimonious to not judge people by their birthplace Bitch that's what you were doing in your original comment! lol
I think you’re struggling to understand, but that’s okay, don’t worry. Yeah, I’m judging people with US/EU passports *who automatically wish the worst for people with “enemy” passports* like Russia, Iraq, Iran, China, Cuba, whatever. (This is you with your “those pricks deserve civil war” comment.) Because they/you are lacking the self-reflection to understand that your birthplace is a lottery. That is not the same as “judging all US/EU people”, though it’s telling that you think it is! The difference is, I decide by your actions, not where you’re born. It’s actually very easy. I’d never say something like “all people from x country deserve war”, because I’m not a weirdo.
That's a long and tiresome way of excusing your own hypocrisy, clown.
Every citizen of a country is responsible for the acts of the country. A nation doesn't have a "good passport" because of some national resource or something unobtainable for others. A country is the sum of its people.
Unfortunately, my friend, this is not how the world works and if you were unfortunate enough to ever live in an authoritarian country for even a short while, you’d understand that. Personally, I don’t hold all Russians responsible for Ukraine in exactly the same way I don’t hold all Saudis responsible for Yemen, all Israeli citizens responsible for deaths in Palestine, all US citizens responsible for Iraq, the list is endless. Where are you from, may I ask? Some reflection might be useful here.
He is definitely from some Western ex-colonial power living off the riches of centuries of looting and virtue-signalling about it today
Hmm, looks like Norway, not as bad on the colonial angle but it is truly life on easy mode.
Yeah I noticed that later too, while I take back my words on being from ex-colonizer (if one doesn't count historical forced assimilation of Sami tribes), the guy still has no empathy for virtue signalling that hard. Russia's military and police numbers alone probably rival the entire population of Norway, not sure how one would rebel against that, that too in a nation with history of revolutions that made life worse than before.
Europe is a place where they until relatively recently decorated roads with severed limbs of the peasants. Needless to say that the change did not come by complaining about how unrealistic invoking the change is. This is exactly how the world works, it’s just a very uncomfortable concept for many as it introduces people to the concept of personal responsibility, and that deciding to do nothing is a decision like any other.
Not sure what point you're trying to make, that Russia should actively rebel and overthrow their govt? Why would they do that, every time they've engaged in revolution (1917, 1991) things got worse for them, their biggest nightmare isn't Putin's dictatorship, but rather the chaos and incompetence of the 90s, which might return if people revolt again. Even I would love to know what active reason there is for the Russian masses to want to overthrow Putin and take that risk.
Point I am trying to make is that if it is acceptable to you to have a corrupt strongman at the helm while watching every country around you improving their living standards. Then that is exactly what you’ll get, it’s not a rocket science. In Norway, it’s not acceptable and that’s why they don’t get those people in power. I also love how you stated that that Sami assimilation, and not pillaging, raping and enslaving half of Europe, is the main problem in norways “non-colonial” history.
I am from Norway, one of the "best passports" in the world, while being married with someone from one of the worst. Have lived in Bolivia for quite some time and the biggest cultural difference I see is the lack of taking responsibility for what happens around you. A country is not created top down, its created bottom up. Every single day I am grateful for the country I live in and work every single day to make it stay this way for my children. That involves making a lot of decisions that are negative to my own lifestyle or economy. It involves cleaning litter or fixing up the local playground for free, even though it's not your responsibility. If you demand more from your politicians than you do for yourself, then you are the problem.
This is very sweet idealistic talk - you are welcome to visit China/Russia any time and help to overthrow Putin and Xi any time with your litter picking.
Or simply move. If you cannot change the tyrant in charge of your country, then stop providing him with your labor, tax income and support. If you are very old or sick then you are excused, but if you are a young and healthy person then show support to those that deserve it.
Yes, it is indeed extremely easy to move with a Russian, Iranian, Cuban passport, “just move” - from the same book as “just overthrow the government”, yes? - it seems you have solved all these problems. You should share your ideas with the UN and we will have no more victims of political repression.
Best not to feed the troll, it's already fat
The scary thing is, I think he does really believe it. But you’re right.
There is absolutely people that genuinely think like that, if this guy is indeed a troll at least serves as an example of how stupid they actually look when they say this dumb stuff
You're homeless? Just buy a house, what's the problem?
> Or simply move. Just move, you say? Lets see which country has been preventing Russians from emigrating Russia seeking better lives for themselves: https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/02/03/norway/russia-dont-jeopardize-asylum-seekers https://www.newsweek.com/russians-fleeing-mobilization-see-key-gateway-europe-cut-off-norway-storskog-1748133
Jeg er norsk også, du kan ikke påvirke din regjeringen når de kan sende politi til huset ditt for en insta innlegg. Folk er ikke organisert og for redde til å gjøre noe.
Selvfølgelig kan du det. Man gjør det ved å ikke stemme inn en regjering som går for slike tiltak. Vi har en sterk stat på grunn av veldig stor tillit til staten fra befolkningen. Det er den tilliten vi har som gjør at Norge, og Skandinavia, er så velfungerende. Når den er vekk så vil levestandarden vår synke som en stein til nivå på resten av Europa.
Afghanere stemte ikke på Taliban. Hitler fikk tyskere til å tro at jøder var onde. Folk er svak, redde og lett å lure. Alle ikke tenke som deg
Hvis du er godtroende nok til å tro på at Putin vant hvert valg han deltok i tror jeg ikke denne diskusjonen kommer til å bidra med noe. Over 100 representanter fra Kremln i den russiske regjeringen signerte et åpent brev i fjor hvor de tryglet Putin om å ikke fortsette. Hvis offentlige representanter har 0 innflytelse er det naivt å tro at befolkningen har det ved å bare kunne stemme. Vi lever godt i Norge og har evne og insentiv til å oppføre oss sånn du beskriver fordi når vi klager blir det tatt opp og diskutert i media eller lest og diskutert som kronikker i etablerte aviser. VG og Aftenposten publiserer kronikker om alt fra "kulturkrig" til stjernetegn hver dag. Dette er absolutt ikke noe som skjer i Russland. Å starte, eller delta i en revolusjon krever mye, det kan kreve livet ditt. Hvis du da har f.eks. familie vil din og deres overlevelse komme først da de kan risikere å miste sin forsørger eller sine egne liv. Annerkjenn at dette ikke er en lett avgjørelse, og i det minste avstå fra å komme med ignorante og forenklede prinsippfaste påstander som at et lands internasjonale relasjoner og politikk alltid er en refleksjon av befolkningen. Det varierer fra land til land og i Russland er det en maktsøkende sosiopat som allierte seg med russiske milliardærer for å kjøpe til seg sin egen regjering. Edit: for ikke mange år tilbake stemte faktisk en stor del av det russiske folket på en motkandidat. Denne presidentkandidaten blir fengslet...
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1674136248364027929?s=20 Wagner’s mutiny scared Putin enough to arrest Russia’s most competent general. #🥳 I didn’t think it would work with Western media spreading the rumor that Surovikin already knew about Wagner’s BS, but that’s what happens when your own media is so much worse you actually trust one great lie that we can truly say it’s from CIA. # 🥳🥳🥳
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We are getting a new one tomorrow. It's needed for the massive amount of submissions that the topic brings what drown out other news.