Groups like 4 Day Week Global and their international partners advocate for a 4-day, 32-hour workweek without any reduction in pay. This is a current trend. The compressed 4-day work week schedule is not a new concept, so it should not receive extra attention.
It's proven to drive productivity too. They just can't wrap their hands around giving us less for more instead. They don't want productivity, they want slaves.
Suffering is literally the goal. My job wastes so much time for absolutely no reason because you get paid the same whether it's 4 hours or 13. "I've already paid you so why would I prioritize you getting done sooner?" Never mind the fact that you're mandated 12 hours off between shifts and we already have labor shortages.
They also changed their attendance policy once again. Now you get assessed extra points for laying off on holidays or any day the company deems too many people take off. But if you come to work like a good little peon you now get absolutely nothing. And there's no holiday pay.
One caveat... it drives productivity measured in output per hour. The problem (for the man) is that there are less hours of production. If someone could show that hourly productivity boosts by at least 25%. Then you at least have an apples to apples comparison on actual output.
That's when you throw overhead at them. Less energy bills on the facilities, potentially less waste in movement and start-up/wind-down activities (only 4 cycles/week vs. 5).
But a lot of the overhead is related to indirect labor costs so those folks will also want 4/32 weeks at same pay which won't reduce much.
Do those things and PROVE that they are repeatable over time, and you'll have businesses lining up to do this. But it's a tall ask.
Without labor they have no company, they have no power without your consignment of authority. So, if the company wishes to continue to exist, they will capitulate. Realise the power of labor.
I'm over here stroking my workplace I got increase on my salary right now. I'm just stroking my shit I'm labor as fuck man I'm a union man like for real.
Not even that. I work for a distribution center for a big ass grocery chain. And I'd say 3 or 4 trucks worth of product being late or just constantly rolled over to the next day, is more costly (to them) than paying a decent wage.
Maybe in some companies. But mine sees that having a well ran distribution center is worth the salaries. It's kinda easy to get fired but pays well to keep good employees. On distribution, it isn't just for weeks, it's either pay employees or not being able to ever push out max volume. Depending on the product but I wouldn't be surprised if the meat trailers would be around 100k worth and I'm sure that's not retail value
I think it is extremely unfair to say won't. Most people can't. When somewhere like Walmart has the capabilities to completely fire and re staff dozens of employees for so much as sniffing at the word union. People aren't going to risk it. Companies have a lot more to lose in the long run. But people aren't even in the same race.
I will give you its nuanced. The reason why people cant changes. However, there are usually 2 options, keep the status quo and live how you are living or fight for change even though it may get ugly. We know politicians arent helping us for the most part, so we need to take matters into our own hands.
If it's done through unions, that seems fine. However, if the change is done by the government, I would be really curious about how that adjustment is implemented and enforced. Not saying it's impossible, but it seems tricky.
Of course, even if done by unions, we still need the government involved to adjust the legal meaning of "full time". This change might even be useful without an adjustment simply because it would force a lot of people to be reclassified as full time workers and be eligible for benefits. That said, an adjustment is preferable.
Say you get paid $10/hr and work 40 hrs a week. That's $400.
What they're saying now is that you'll get $400 for the week but only have to work 32 hours.
That means you're now getting 12.50 an hour.
Plus I’ve had many experiences where I finish my tasks early and then the last day is just me trying to look busy. With a 4 day week I probably wouldn’t be paid to pretend to work as often
I worked 4/10. Way better than 5/8 because you eliminate one commute, which freed up one hour. Three day weekends mean your leave also goes farther, so you get to travel more often. I currently work 9/80 where my day off is flexible - I can take it anywhere in the pay period I choose.
At my workplace, 4/10 was at the request of the employees, not the employer.
You can’t please all of the people.
I've had lots of jobs that were either 4 10s or 5 10s (seasonal) and 8 hours just feels so short most of the time. We lose 1 to 2 hours every day just getting to and from the worksite. If we only worked 8 hour days we wouldn't get anything done.
The one place where I worked 4 10s it was a three week schedule and at the end you got 5 days off. It would have been great if I was actually making enough money to not just be sitting at home broke. The broke part is a different story.
I had a 9-80 schedule (80 hours over 9 days, every other Friday off) and it was taken away from me because of my leadership role. So now I work 8 hour days. I get there later than my team, and leave earlier. It can't be good for team morale, but that's what the boss decided.
One part of one of my company’s multiple mottos (embarrassing, I know) is “do more for less” and they include it in training videos as though we’re stupid or lacking of ears enough to not understand that they’re telling us to work more for less money, in actual words
Nah, I prefer "work smarter, not harder". I've had to time myself handwriting labels on test tubes bc they wouldn't invest in a label printer, or more importantly, a barcode system.
Literally told my coworker that I had my response loaded for the next time someone told me that at my store “you mean work somewhere else?” *genuine face*
I had applied to a position that went hard on the 4 day work week, really advertise it and kept going on about it in interviews. Should've rang a bell with the amount that they were bragging about it.
Turned out that it was just a trap as it was 2 hours extra every day you had to work more to make up for the "lost" day.
Bowed out of that application real quick.
That's not a trap, that's a 4x10 work week, this concept of 4x8 is new and extremely rare.
They didn't expect you to work more, they expected you to work a standard 40 hours into a compressed week to give you an extra day off.
But I guess you prefer to work 5 days instead of 4
And it shouldn’t even be that. If you’re working 5 days and go to 4, your work output should go from 100% to 80%. We have much more productivity than we need.
But... But.. How will the CEO buy his brand new yacht if you piggies aren't maximizing productivity and SHAREHOLDER VALUE?!?
Millennials and Zoomers are KILLING the yacht industry!!!!
/s
The post office wanted me to do 13 days from 7:30am to 10pm not including a 45 minute commute. Followed by 1 day off and then 7 more days and the holidays hadn't even started. Left after a month and a half there the moment I was handed the schedule.
I’m currently on a 7x10 grind. One day off in the last 60 days. It’s not forced obviously, unless you consider that I have to do it in order to be able to afford a down payment on a house. It’s insane what the current generation has to do to better their situation.
My company offered to transfer me to a 5x10 hourly position and I declined. I currently work 4x10 and it’s exhausting enough that I’m basically either sick my whole weekend or I’m a zombie my first entire day off. A 90-minute round trip commute on top of a 10-hour shift means I’m realistically only “free” to do everything I need at home from 6pm-9pm, which includes making dinner, showering, cleaning, preparing for tomorrow, taking care of pets, and then any down time. Not saying it’s worse than 5x8, but it’s no picnic.
A big thing I noticed is when I was scheduled for 10 hours people were a lot less likely to ask me to stay late than when I'm scheduled for a 9 hour workday.
I don't have a long commute (\~25-30 mins), but having an entire day less commuting is really nice. A 4 day workweek also guarantees you have time off to get things done during normal business hours, rather than burning PTO for doctor's appointments.
Because it’s not over saturated, everyone “knows someone who can weld” but sticking some farm tools together and production welding are different ballgames. Not to mention the shop welder/field welder difference.
You got that right. I was trained on a job to weld. I even took a VOTEC course on welding. You want two pieces of metal to stick together and stay that way even though it's mind-baffeling ugly and wasteful of sticks? I'm your dude. You want a weld that's actually pretty and can be reproduced a dozen+ times an hour to exact specs? You TOTALLY got the wrong welder.
>and wasteful of sticks
That's every welder. I stopped counting the amount of times I found a welding rod being used as a twist tie to hold a tarp to something.
Like I told my boss a couple of years ago, 'I can weld, but I don't know how to weld.' I'll buzz some shit together, but I'm not touching anything remotely safety related. They can, and do, pay a certified welder to come do it.
Poor management.
My first welding job went under because they slaved us away until we got a system going. Knocked out 3 years of backorders in 6 months followed by a gov shutdown which is how we got our hours reduced. Instead of pacing out the work they wanted us to knock things out undercost so other things could be charged to the job. It was so stupid.
My second job was with carter cat which followed the same scheme except they didn't even bother to train me. I was literally running around day one trying to figure out who my manager was supposed to be, get my PPE, etc They hired me as a novice yet magically excepted me to understand how they did things day one .
I love welding. I literally have dreams about it to this day, but the work environment is mismanaged to hell. It took 5 years of PT to rebuild my joints afterwards. I learned enough in those 5 years to do the bare minimum and greatly reduce my standard of living so i never need to work much.
Because metal shop employers don't want to pay people a reasonable wage. There are people making as much or more money in food services (not a bad thing, just used as a comparison) than people in welding.
(Edit, my point is that, if you can make a similar amount of money doing a much less physically demanding skilled job, why would you do the harder thing?)
I do 4x10 overnights in Radiology. During interviews they wanted 5x8, I negociated, got what I wanted - hours and pay. Happiest I've been with a job for a while.
This is ridiculous. I've talked my way into working 2x16s and I fucking love it. All my work gets done on the weekends, and I get m-f off to do chores, shopping, and living life.
Yes this is the extreme example, but shows there's room for improvement for all.
My SO used to work 3x12. The 4-day weekend was fantastic. Was even able to get staffing to schedule him Monday-Wed, 4 day break, 4-day break, Friday-Sun. It made getting week long vacations pretty easy to do.
Back at my NYS DOCCS job as a corrections officer, some of us used to do “twos and fours”. Two sixteen hour days followed by four days off. Yes those two back-to-back 16 hour days were awful in a prison, the four days off were fantastic.
Yeah I’m thinking we should be working like 4 days , six hours a day tops. The system should work in our favor not theirs , otherwise we need a new system.
I work compressed hours over a 4 day week, and it's been brilliant. I have got to spend more time with my family, I generally feel more relaxed, and because of the vastly improved work/life balance, I am more productive at work. The 4 day week should be the standard everywhere
I've been working four tens for 2 years. It's absolutely life-changing.
Would four 8-hour days be better, of course. But this is significantly better for your work-life balance.
I've been working 4×10s for about a year now and I couldn't agree more. To me, a work day is a work day no matter the duration. If I'm getting up at 4 am for my shift that starts at 5 am, then I'll have the same amount of energy at noon that I do at 3 pm. I'd much rather sleep in on a Friday than have a couple extra hours to myself because it's not like I was going to do much with it anyway.
Exactly, not to mention having a weekday off makes recurring appointments possible, makes it possible to go to businesses that aren't closed on the weekdays and really dilutes the stress of anything you have to complete on a weekend. Having 3 days means there's at least one day where it's okay not to do anything.
I don't necessarily know about that if you have anything you need to tend to on a daily basis or even have hobbies like enjoying sports after work or whatever. With a commute the 4x10 barely gives you time to eat and get to bed four days of the week. Plus by hour 6 in a normal day I'm already suffering major brain drain and emotional/mental exhaustion.
And it gives you an entire weekday to get stuff during the daytime when places are actually open.
4x10 is the best shift I ever had, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.
Literally every shred of evidence tells us that fewer hours, with better pay, increases productivity AND morale. Therefore, the only reason they have for doing it this way is to keep us poor and sad. You know! In the old days... ✊🏚️🔥💵🥵
Perfection is the enemy of the good.
Four tens is a whole fucking lot closer to four eights that five eights is.
My partner works four tens currently and is way fucking happier than if they worked five days per week.
Progress is important. Four tens is still three day weekends, every weekend.
In my experience at a very large employer who switched from 5x8 to 4x10, everyone treated it unofficially more like 4x9 and it was great. On top of that, people tended to leave early on Thursdays, just like they used to leave early on Fridays.
I’d rather do 4 x 10. There are multiple reasons.
1. Every weekend is longer.
2. Less time people spend on traffic.
3. Once the change happens, no one will go back to 5 days a week.
4. You can work towards reducing hours after the change.
5. School is still a factor. Parents will have to pick up/drop off kids. Less stress for students going to school less frequently.
6. It still hurts commercial real estate values, so that trend will continue.
7. Less pollution from decreased commuting.
I understand that we should already have a 4x8 but this “all or nothing” mindset seems to leave us with nothing 99% of the time.
A big part of the reason the wealthy were able to get such favorable tax rates (compared to the rates from the mid 1900s) and less benefits for Social Security is by doing it incrementally. You change the norm to where it doesn’t seem that much different, then you let that become the norm, and you repeat. It takes decades for people to realize how much worse (or better) things are when they get to compare the current standard and that of several generations ago.
Edit:
8. It would be easier to make appointments (doctor, dentist, plumber, electrician, etc.)
9. Any holiday on a Monday would mean a four day weekend.
10. Many people get PTO days, not necessarily hours. That would help increase time off.
There are more reasons but I just thought of a few extra
Agreed. 4x8 is the goal, but 4x10 is still significantly better than 5x8. I honestly don't think we'll get widespread 4x8 in my time in the workforce (I'm 38 already), but if we can get 4x10 to be the new standard now, then our kids might be able to get 4x8.
I work 4 10s and I fuckin love it… 3 days off instead of two feels more restful and I don’t have to worry about losing hours for doctors appointments and such because I can just schedule them for Fridays… if your boss is gas lighting you into moving away from 4 10s, kindly DM me their email and I’ll cyber bully them into compliance for you lol
Hahahaha hahahahahahahaha...
What a good laugh.
We have been a 4 day workweek (32 hrs) for well over a year now.
Best, thing, ever.
Always ready to go Monday, we all do great, things are great. 3 day weekends leave time for rest and getting things done.
Would we do a 3 day workweek? Hell yeah if we could, only problem with 4 day workweek is we take on less work so it takes longer (weeks wise) to complete projects but who cares. We are all happier.
As far as I'm concerned every day I'm at work is a write-off, so a whole extra day off is far more valuable than a couple of extra hours every evening to sit on the sofa too fucked to do anything. Fortunately the tide is turning and they know it, hence their pathetic attempts to fight back with these stupid articles about how 4-day work weeks/working from home/retirement is supposedly bad for us...
Its a preference. I prefer 5 8s myself. I like to have some time after work for real life. But if its going to a 4 day week make it pay the same as a 40. Production has gone up so much in last 50 years this should gave been done a long time ago.
Being effective and knowledgeable at my job, I work maybe 2 hours a day. This is not a humble brag but more the reality I think for most people who know the game is rigged. I could get a Grammy for looking annoyed and stressed. Fuck them don't do anything extra.
Way back, my company did summer hours 4x9, half day Fridays. I thought it was a pretty good deal because no one worked on Friday, we came in hungover anyway, just did bullshit, ate proper breakfast in cafeteria, and left as soon as no one was watching.
4x8 is still better.
Fuck this. Why not just go for a three day week 3x7 hours. The economy and society will quickly adjust to this as the norm except for businesses that are obsessed about growth. If you’re obsessed about growth, talk to a cancer patient because the obsession about growth is probably what causes cancer in most people. The obsession about growth in the business workplace causes uncontrolled growth (cancer) in the people who are forced to participate.
We cant even get the damn minimum wage increased to a reasonable level. Hell, they still haven't gotten rid of daylight savings time. Both of which have majority support of the the people. At our current rate of progress, it'll be another 100 years before this becomes a serious point of discussion.
I think it's a great idea, fully support it and would love to see it happen. I'm just pointing out that until we can get the government to stop fucking over the people every time we turn around, this is nothing more than a dangling fruit meant to distract.
I’m totally onboard with the “4x8” workweek; but until then, I just switched to 4x10. I work from home, so already had a pretty nice arrangement (comparatively speaking) - but having an extra day off has been great. I saw something along the lines that everyone should have 3 days off: one to decompress, one to run/complete errands, and one for fun/recreation. I couldn’t agree more - this 4 day workweek (still 40 hours) has allowed me to catch up on things I’d otherwise be too exhausted to do.
Again, to reiterate, I’m still all in favor of the 32 hr workweek :-)
I never understood why anyone ever thinks that's truly better or why people hype it up. I used to work 4x10s and it's just a different kind of exhausted. That's more of my waking day thrown away.
Progress starts at 5x6s and we go down from there.
I've worked 4x10s, I like it more than 5x8s. Though tbh it really should just be 4x8s. There at min 2 hours a day where me & my coworkers aren't productive.
I work 4x10s and I think I get more work done this way actually. I used to get to the end of my 8 hour day and not be able to start something because I didn’t have time to finish it, so I’d fuck around for 45 minutes. Now by the end of my 4th day I have everything done for the week plus some extra time for side projects I’ve been putting off. Plus no more of that burnt out feeling by Friday mid morning. So they’re full of shit. Also having an extra day off during the week is fucking great. I usually take Wednesday off, grocery shopping at 9am on a Wednesday is magical! And getting oil changes and hair cuts, scheduling drs appts, etc. game changer! Don’t let them fool you.
I work 4 day work weeks with Wednesday being my 3rd day off. 8 hour 12 hour off 8 hour 12 hour off off. As soon as I’m starting to get a little burnt out, I get a day off. It’s incredible
Wait….I’m really confused by this.
So you work 8 then take12 hours off? Then work 8 and repeat? But your shift changes by 4 hours everyday because 8+12 is only 20 hours. And then you get Wednesday off?
It wasn't my favourite job, but the best hours I ever had were 3x12 hour shifts a week. I got a full week's pay and a 4 day weekend every week. 6pm-6am Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. I also had the option to work an extra shift if I wanted some extra money.
I get the idea that 4x10s aren't really that much more productive, but this is one of those situations where you don't want perfection to be the enemy of progress. 4-10-hour days is still superior to 5-8-hour days in my opinion. Of course it depends on what kind of work you're doing, but having that extra day off for either rest or whatever else you want in exchange for a couple hours of the rest of the week when you didn't have a ton of free time to begin with seems like reasonable progress.
My job has me working 4 days on and 4 days off, 10 hour shifts. It’s the best part of my job and the main thing that keeps people from quitting. The schedule is so good that I can have a life without needing to take days off.
As someone who has as much work as possible shoved into alternating 5x10s and 6x10s, both Sarah Green Carmichael and her opinion can kindly suck my testicles.
4x8 schedules or I move to Germany and you can do the work yourself
As someone who works 4x10s, stuff it. It isn't exploitation and it benefits me greatly by having three day weekends and town hours of uninterrupted bullshit while people aren't in the office.
I’ve worked a 4x10 schedule and fucking loved it. Obviously I’d prefer 32 hours vs 40 but if I have to work 40 I’d rather do it in four days and gain an entire day off.
I was a programmer in the '90s and I worked a 4x10 for a while when they offered it. I loved it.
For one thing, I had a shitty commute and this meant dealing with it one less time. And with the longer work days, I missed the worst of the commute both ways -- I started before the peak of the morning rush hour, and left work after the peak of the evening rush.
Most of my colleagues who took 4x10s wanted Fridays off, and a few wanted Mondays for a long weekend. Me? I asked for Wednesdays, especially since my boss was fine with me occasionally changing to Monday or Friday if we were going away for a long weekend. I loved not having more than two work days in a row -- Monday/Tuesday, day off, Thursday/Friday, two days off. It made Tuesday actually feel like a mini-Friday. And again, if we needed a long weekend to go away, my boss was always OK with it.
I never noticed that I was given "more work" because of it -- just that the work I had needed to be done in four (longer) days instead of five.
We were offered the choice of 4x10's or sticking with the 5x8's that always end up being 9+ hours every day because of service hours are longer than the work day. Switching to 4x10's means I actually work my 40 and go home. They win because 10 hours covers the service hours. We win because we aren't working unwanted overtime every day.
A four day, 10 hour a day work week most certain does *NOT* burn you out. I've been working them for 17 years now. What burns you out is spending 5 out of 7 days working. That extra day off is magical. Don't listen to these people. The only thing that would make it better is if it went to 32 hours instead of 40.
I did four day work weeks and they were great. Actually have time to rest and recover while getting chores done. Might be doing panama schedule soon and that sounds even better.
I work a 4 day work week. I really think 5 days is much harder due to having to get prepared and traveling to and from the office. And I have to mentally prepare myself for dealing with my job another day of the week.
I'm all about 4 day work weeks and even more for a 32 hour workweek at the same pay.
I work 4x9, I have a day off every wednesday, so I never have to work more than 2 days in a row.
Anyway, today the weather will be great so I’m getting up in a minute and start my dat with a stroll through the forest. And the rest of the day I’m going to read a book on my balcony in the sun.
Had a conversation with a guy a while back and he told me his company had gone to the four day work week.
I was super-excited, as I'm still 5x8.
He said the longer days were hard at first, and he had to also work some Saturdays.
I was like, dude, that *isn't* the four day work week, they've scammed you.
Groups like 4 Day Week Global and their international partners advocate for a 4-day, 32-hour workweek without any reduction in pay. This is a current trend. The compressed 4-day work week schedule is not a new concept, so it should not receive extra attention.
My employer did this, 32 hours over 4 days but no cut in pay. Into our second year and if I change jobs I’d be negotiating a 4 day work week.
Who’s your employer? Asking for a friend.
I'm also asking for this dude's friend.
I'm also on a fact-finding mission for this friend
This friend needs answers bro!
Gavin! Where are you?
[Link to answer!](https://www.reddit.com/r/antiwork/s/GpJvi94qvX)
Ed tech based in the UK. There are quite a few companies doing the 4 day work week, 4x8 @ 100% pay now
Can you share (or allude to) which UK ed tech?
Will add, I think everyone should have the right to work 4 days a week.
It's proven to drive productivity too. They just can't wrap their hands around giving us less for more instead. They don't want productivity, they want slaves.
Suffering is literally the goal. My job wastes so much time for absolutely no reason because you get paid the same whether it's 4 hours or 13. "I've already paid you so why would I prioritize you getting done sooner?" Never mind the fact that you're mandated 12 hours off between shifts and we already have labor shortages. They also changed their attendance policy once again. Now you get assessed extra points for laying off on holidays or any day the company deems too many people take off. But if you come to work like a good little peon you now get absolutely nothing. And there's no holiday pay.
One caveat... it drives productivity measured in output per hour. The problem (for the man) is that there are less hours of production. If someone could show that hourly productivity boosts by at least 25%. Then you at least have an apples to apples comparison on actual output. That's when you throw overhead at them. Less energy bills on the facilities, potentially less waste in movement and start-up/wind-down activities (only 4 cycles/week vs. 5). But a lot of the overhead is related to indirect labor costs so those folks will also want 4/32 weeks at same pay which won't reduce much. Do those things and PROVE that they are repeatable over time, and you'll have businesses lining up to do this. But it's a tall ask.
if people are paid hourly doesnt having a 32 hour work week mean less money than working 40 hours ? how does this not result in a reduction in pay?
They would adjust wages to make it so. So basically a 20% increase in pay.
Lol. Like the greedy companies will agree to that.
Without labor they have no company, they have no power without your consignment of authority. So, if the company wishes to continue to exist, they will capitulate. Realise the power of labor.
The issue is most people wont unionize and strike. If we were to actually strike the loss of a single day of business is worth more than raise
Stroking works. I got an 8% increase after threatening to strike.
>Stroking works ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Ikr what a fun typo😂
Man I’ve been stroking since I was a teenager and all I’ve got is a shameful pile of tissues.
I'm over here stroking my workplace I got increase on my salary right now. I'm just stroking my shit I'm labor as fuck man I'm a union man like for real.
That just covers inflation
Not even that. I work for a distribution center for a big ass grocery chain. And I'd say 3 or 4 trucks worth of product being late or just constantly rolled over to the next day, is more costly (to them) than paying a decent wage.
From what I've seen, companies would rather lose $1M a day for weeks than give their employees a raise
Maybe in some companies. But mine sees that having a well ran distribution center is worth the salaries. It's kinda easy to get fired but pays well to keep good employees. On distribution, it isn't just for weeks, it's either pay employees or not being able to ever push out max volume. Depending on the product but I wouldn't be surprised if the meat trailers would be around 100k worth and I'm sure that's not retail value
I think it is extremely unfair to say won't. Most people can't. When somewhere like Walmart has the capabilities to completely fire and re staff dozens of employees for so much as sniffing at the word union. People aren't going to risk it. Companies have a lot more to lose in the long run. But people aren't even in the same race.
I will give you its nuanced. The reason why people cant changes. However, there are usually 2 options, keep the status quo and live how you are living or fight for change even though it may get ugly. We know politicians arent helping us for the most part, so we need to take matters into our own hands.
Exactly! That's why we need unions.
If it's done through unions, that seems fine. However, if the change is done by the government, I would be really curious about how that adjustment is implemented and enforced. Not saying it's impossible, but it seems tricky. Of course, even if done by unions, we still need the government involved to adjust the legal meaning of "full time". This change might even be useful without an adjustment simply because it would force a lot of people to be reclassified as full time workers and be eligible for benefits. That said, an adjustment is preferable.
Say you get paid $10/hr and work 40 hrs a week. That's $400. What they're saying now is that you'll get $400 for the week but only have to work 32 hours. That means you're now getting 12.50 an hour.
I'll take a 4x8 or 5x6. 4x10 is no improvement.
Yes, this.
That's a really dumb argument. "Cramming more work into fewer days!" Like that isn't exactly what they've been doing with the regular workweek.
If I went from my current 4x10 schedule back to a 5x8 schedule, it’s almost guaranteed that it would actually turn into a 5x10.
Plus I’ve had many experiences where I finish my tasks early and then the last day is just me trying to look busy. With a 4 day week I probably wouldn’t be paid to pretend to work as often
I’d rather be home pretending to clean my house than be at work pretending to work.
This made me actually laugh out loud. Thank you!
worm sort enjoy familiar far-flung advise wise elastic whistle nose *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This. How can anyone say 4x10 is worse than what most people are being asked to do over 5 (and be available for the other 2)?
I worked 4/10. Way better than 5/8 because you eliminate one commute, which freed up one hour. Three day weekends mean your leave also goes farther, so you get to travel more often. I currently work 9/80 where my day off is flexible - I can take it anywhere in the pay period I choose. At my workplace, 4/10 was at the request of the employees, not the employer. You can’t please all of the people.
I've had lots of jobs that were either 4 10s or 5 10s (seasonal) and 8 hours just feels so short most of the time. We lose 1 to 2 hours every day just getting to and from the worksite. If we only worked 8 hour days we wouldn't get anything done. The one place where I worked 4 10s it was a three week schedule and at the end you got 5 days off. It would have been great if I was actually making enough money to not just be sitting at home broke. The broke part is a different story.
I had a 9-80 schedule (80 hours over 9 days, every other Friday off) and it was taken away from me because of my leadership role. So now I work 8 hour days. I get there later than my team, and leave earlier. It can't be good for team morale, but that's what the boss decided.
Sounds suspiciously like what would happen to a new engineering manager at a particular aerospace/communications company in Central Florida...
One part of one of my company’s multiple mottos (embarrassing, I know) is “do more for less” and they include it in training videos as though we’re stupid or lacking of ears enough to not understand that they’re telling us to work more for less money, in actual words
Nah, I prefer "work smarter, not harder". I've had to time myself handwriting labels on test tubes bc they wouldn't invest in a label printer, or more importantly, a barcode system.
Literally told my coworker that I had my response loaded for the next time someone told me that at my store “you mean work somewhere else?” *genuine face*
Holy shit, that is brazen.
“Do more with less” means you have less money because the boss keeps more.
I had applied to a position that went hard on the 4 day work week, really advertise it and kept going on about it in interviews. Should've rang a bell with the amount that they were bragging about it. Turned out that it was just a trap as it was 2 hours extra every day you had to work more to make up for the "lost" day. Bowed out of that application real quick.
And went back to 5 8s?
That's not a trap, that's a 4x10 work week, this concept of 4x8 is new and extremely rare. They didn't expect you to work more, they expected you to work a standard 40 hours into a compressed week to give you an extra day off. But I guess you prefer to work 5 days instead of 4
The language used is deceptive: "... cramming more work into fewer days ...". No, no, no. I'm re-distributing the **same amount of work**.
And it shouldn’t even be that. If you’re working 5 days and go to 4, your work output should go from 100% to 80%. We have much more productivity than we need.
My output is always 100% of the work that I do.
This guy outputs
That's the only way to get'em to put out....😎
12% on Monday 23% on Tuesday 40% on Wednesday 20% on Thursday 5% on Friday
Except in practice people’s output is not going down on a 4 day workweek, as shown in experiments around the world
But... But.. How will the CEO buy his brand new yacht if you piggies aren't maximizing productivity and SHAREHOLDER VALUE?!? Millennials and Zoomers are KILLING the yacht industry!!!! /s
Otherwise wages would have kept pace with productivity right?
It's 4x8 and anyone saying otherwise at this point is disingenuous and purposefully obtuse.
I'm a fan of working towards 4x4 but I wouldn't say no to 4x8 in the meantime
Well yes, I'm also good with 4x4.. honestly I only really do 2x2 anyway .lol
We are fighting for 4x8s, resulting in 32 hours in a week. Don't let them distract and confuse us, tell your friends and family!
I'm working 5x10s, I'll take a 4x10, but boy would I love 4x8s.
I work 4x10 and I do like the 3-day weekend, but I sure would love 4x8.
I work 3 days a week but i get 2 weekends instead
Did the 5x10 grind for a few years. Absolutely never fucking again. That was on top of a 45 minute commute too
The post office wanted me to do 13 days from 7:30am to 10pm not including a 45 minute commute. Followed by 1 day off and then 7 more days and the holidays hadn't even started. Left after a month and a half there the moment I was handed the schedule.
I’m currently on a 7x10 grind. One day off in the last 60 days. It’s not forced obviously, unless you consider that I have to do it in order to be able to afford a down payment on a house. It’s insane what the current generation has to do to better their situation.
My company offered to transfer me to a 5x10 hourly position and I declined. I currently work 4x10 and it’s exhausting enough that I’m basically either sick my whole weekend or I’m a zombie my first entire day off. A 90-minute round trip commute on top of a 10-hour shift means I’m realistically only “free” to do everything I need at home from 6pm-9pm, which includes making dinner, showering, cleaning, preparing for tomorrow, taking care of pets, and then any down time. Not saying it’s worse than 5x8, but it’s no picnic.
I do 4x10 and I prefer it to 5x8. I dont think that anyone is confused that it is still 40 hours, it is basic math. I will not be telling my family.
A big thing I noticed is when I was scheduled for 10 hours people were a lot less likely to ask me to stay late than when I'm scheduled for a 9 hour workday. I don't have a long commute (\~25-30 mins), but having an entire day less commuting is really nice. A 4 day workweek also guarantees you have time off to get things done during normal business hours, rather than burning PTO for doctor's appointments.
Welding was brutal doing 50-55 hour weeks.We argued for 4x10s with a 8hr friday and it was a godsend
I don't understand how welding is so oversaturated with labor yet still scheduled for 50-60 hour weeks.
Because it’s not over saturated, everyone “knows someone who can weld” but sticking some farm tools together and production welding are different ballgames. Not to mention the shop welder/field welder difference.
You got that right. I was trained on a job to weld. I even took a VOTEC course on welding. You want two pieces of metal to stick together and stay that way even though it's mind-baffeling ugly and wasteful of sticks? I'm your dude. You want a weld that's actually pretty and can be reproduced a dozen+ times an hour to exact specs? You TOTALLY got the wrong welder.
>and wasteful of sticks That's every welder. I stopped counting the amount of times I found a welding rod being used as a twist tie to hold a tarp to something.
Like I told my boss a couple of years ago, 'I can weld, but I don't know how to weld.' I'll buzz some shit together, but I'm not touching anything remotely safety related. They can, and do, pay a certified welder to come do it.
Poor management. My first welding job went under because they slaved us away until we got a system going. Knocked out 3 years of backorders in 6 months followed by a gov shutdown which is how we got our hours reduced. Instead of pacing out the work they wanted us to knock things out undercost so other things could be charged to the job. It was so stupid. My second job was with carter cat which followed the same scheme except they didn't even bother to train me. I was literally running around day one trying to figure out who my manager was supposed to be, get my PPE, etc They hired me as a novice yet magically excepted me to understand how they did things day one . I love welding. I literally have dreams about it to this day, but the work environment is mismanaged to hell. It took 5 years of PT to rebuild my joints afterwards. I learned enough in those 5 years to do the bare minimum and greatly reduce my standard of living so i never need to work much.
Because metal shop employers don't want to pay people a reasonable wage. There are people making as much or more money in food services (not a bad thing, just used as a comparison) than people in welding. (Edit, my point is that, if you can make a similar amount of money doing a much less physically demanding skilled job, why would you do the harder thing?)
I do 4x10 overnights in Radiology. During interviews they wanted 5x8, I negociated, got what I wanted - hours and pay. Happiest I've been with a job for a while.
Lucky you, getting to be in a position to bargain.
Overnights+weekends+solo work. XR/CT/IR certified. Took the shifts nobody wanted. Former server, used to late nights/weekends!
Did the same. I LOVE my weekends alone.
This is ridiculous. I've talked my way into working 2x16s and I fucking love it. All my work gets done on the weekends, and I get m-f off to do chores, shopping, and living life. Yes this is the extreme example, but shows there's room for improvement for all.
My SO used to work 3x12. The 4-day weekend was fantastic. Was even able to get staffing to schedule him Monday-Wed, 4 day break, 4-day break, Friday-Sun. It made getting week long vacations pretty easy to do.
Back at my NYS DOCCS job as a corrections officer, some of us used to do “twos and fours”. Two sixteen hour days followed by four days off. Yes those two back-to-back 16 hour days were awful in a prison, the four days off were fantastic.
Yeah I’m thinking we should be working like 4 days , six hours a day tops. The system should work in our favor not theirs , otherwise we need a new system.
We never asked for 4x10 you silly fucks. We want 4x8 because the companies can obviously afford it
I say no to 4 10's because I think we should have 4 8's for the same weekly pay, so there.
Good thing I will have three fucking days to recover then.
One day to take care of responsibilities, one day to let loose, and one day to rest. Or whatever that works.
No matter how many days it takes, I am still only "working" for about 10 hours a week.
Yeah, fuck 4x10's. Because we all know what employers already try to do with days off a 5x week
I work compressed hours over a 4 day week, and it's been brilliant. I have got to spend more time with my family, I generally feel more relaxed, and because of the vastly improved work/life balance, I am more productive at work. The 4 day week should be the standard everywhere
I've been working four tens for 2 years. It's absolutely life-changing. Would four 8-hour days be better, of course. But this is significantly better for your work-life balance.
I've been working 4×10s for about a year now and I couldn't agree more. To me, a work day is a work day no matter the duration. If I'm getting up at 4 am for my shift that starts at 5 am, then I'll have the same amount of energy at noon that I do at 3 pm. I'd much rather sleep in on a Friday than have a couple extra hours to myself because it's not like I was going to do much with it anyway.
Exactly, not to mention having a weekday off makes recurring appointments possible, makes it possible to go to businesses that aren't closed on the weekdays and really dilutes the stress of anything you have to complete on a weekend. Having 3 days means there's at least one day where it's okay not to do anything.
4x10 is wayyy better than 5x8.
4x8 is better than both
Of course
I don't necessarily know about that if you have anything you need to tend to on a daily basis or even have hobbies like enjoying sports after work or whatever. With a commute the 4x10 barely gives you time to eat and get to bed four days of the week. Plus by hour 6 in a normal day I'm already suffering major brain drain and emotional/mental exhaustion.
If you have a commute, a 5x8 also barely gives you any time to do anything besides eat and go to bed.
You are saving the commute time and getting ready time one day per week. For a lot of people, compressed work week puts 2 hours back in your pocket.
And it gives you an entire weekday to get stuff during the daytime when places are actually open. 4x10 is the best shift I ever had, I’d do it again in a heartbeat.
Lol. Speak for yourself! I'd die! Unless it was a WFH or remote job, I wouldn't do 4x10.
Yep, don't fight for a 4x10. People can't usually work more than about 6 hours efficiently anyway.
It should be 4x8s. Eliminate the BS of walking around the office talking to folks and get rid of the redundant meetings.
Me: we should have a 4 day work week. Friend: so you'd work 10 hrs a day for 4 days? Me: No.
Literally every shred of evidence tells us that fewer hours, with better pay, increases productivity AND morale. Therefore, the only reason they have for doing it this way is to keep us poor and sad. You know! In the old days... ✊🏚️🔥💵🥵
I agree “no to 4x10s”, but yes to “4x8s”!!!!!
Who said about cramming more work into fewer days? 4 × 8 please.
Perfection is the enemy of the good. Four tens is a whole fucking lot closer to four eights that five eights is. My partner works four tens currently and is way fucking happier than if they worked five days per week. Progress is important. Four tens is still three day weekends, every weekend.
Not ever hiring enough employees is bad for business and can lead to employee burnout, but that never stopped them.
In my experience at a very large employer who switched from 5x8 to 4x10, everyone treated it unofficially more like 4x9 and it was great. On top of that, people tended to leave early on Thursdays, just like they used to leave early on Fridays.
I’d rather do 4 x 10. There are multiple reasons. 1. Every weekend is longer. 2. Less time people spend on traffic. 3. Once the change happens, no one will go back to 5 days a week. 4. You can work towards reducing hours after the change. 5. School is still a factor. Parents will have to pick up/drop off kids. Less stress for students going to school less frequently. 6. It still hurts commercial real estate values, so that trend will continue. 7. Less pollution from decreased commuting. I understand that we should already have a 4x8 but this “all or nothing” mindset seems to leave us with nothing 99% of the time. A big part of the reason the wealthy were able to get such favorable tax rates (compared to the rates from the mid 1900s) and less benefits for Social Security is by doing it incrementally. You change the norm to where it doesn’t seem that much different, then you let that become the norm, and you repeat. It takes decades for people to realize how much worse (or better) things are when they get to compare the current standard and that of several generations ago. Edit: 8. It would be easier to make appointments (doctor, dentist, plumber, electrician, etc.) 9. Any holiday on a Monday would mean a four day weekend. 10. Many people get PTO days, not necessarily hours. That would help increase time off. There are more reasons but I just thought of a few extra
Agreed. 4x8 is the goal, but 4x10 is still significantly better than 5x8. I honestly don't think we'll get widespread 4x8 in my time in the workforce (I'm 38 already), but if we can get 4x10 to be the new standard now, then our kids might be able to get 4x8.
We should have more time in a day for ourselves even on the days we work. 6 hour work days
I work 4 10s and I fuckin love it… 3 days off instead of two feels more restful and I don’t have to worry about losing hours for doctors appointments and such because I can just schedule them for Fridays… if your boss is gas lighting you into moving away from 4 10s, kindly DM me their email and I’ll cyber bully them into compliance for you lol
I love doing 3x12 shifts that is the best! So much free time. 4x 10s are also amazing
4 10’s is the king of shifts
Either this is intentional, or she's stupid. The jury is still out.
4x10s is so much better than 5x8s. But 3x12s with 40 hours pay was my Utopia for a while.
Hahahaha hahahahahahahaha... What a good laugh. We have been a 4 day workweek (32 hrs) for well over a year now. Best, thing, ever. Always ready to go Monday, we all do great, things are great. 3 day weekends leave time for rest and getting things done. Would we do a 3 day workweek? Hell yeah if we could, only problem with 4 day workweek is we take on less work so it takes longer (weeks wise) to complete projects but who cares. We are all happier.
Why would companies want you to work 4x10 when they can guilt you into working 5x10 for the same amount.
>Four-Day Workweeks Can Burn You Out 3 day work weeks it is then!
Are they joking I would take that any day give me 410s and give me three days off. I’ll be a happy camper.
Obviously, if you cram 5 days work, into 4, it's not gonna be good. I'm sure that was never what the 4 day week was meant to be.
4x10 sounds like a scam, 4 days a week should mean 4x8 and I think that's the trend.
I once *did* cram more work into fewer days by working 10 hours, 4 days a week. It was great! Doing 8 hours 4 days a week would be most excellent
These opinion pieces are always hot garbage, I work 4 10s right now and I will NEEEEVER go back to 5 days a week
As far as I'm concerned every day I'm at work is a write-off, so a whole extra day off is far more valuable than a couple of extra hours every evening to sit on the sofa too fucked to do anything. Fortunately the tide is turning and they know it, hence their pathetic attempts to fight back with these stupid articles about how 4-day work weeks/working from home/retirement is supposedly bad for us...
Yeah exactly
I wish I can work 4×10 will give me an extra day off but I would prefer 4×8 and make the same amount
I already work 4x10, with Friday being overtime. It sucks when having to work overtime, but at least it isn't 12 hour shifts.
Its a preference. I prefer 5 8s myself. I like to have some time after work for real life. But if its going to a 4 day week make it pay the same as a 40. Production has gone up so much in last 50 years this should gave been done a long time ago.
Being effective and knowledgeable at my job, I work maybe 2 hours a day. This is not a humble brag but more the reality I think for most people who know the game is rigged. I could get a Grammy for looking annoyed and stressed. Fuck them don't do anything extra.
And I'm going to say the ugly truth - they're totally correct. Which is why we need 4x8 instead.
Way back, my company did summer hours 4x9, half day Fridays. I thought it was a pretty good deal because no one worked on Friday, we came in hungover anyway, just did bullshit, ate proper breakfast in cafeteria, and left as soon as no one was watching. 4x8 is still better.
I do 4X10’s but I don’t work overtime. Period. I work for an airline. But I have a union who will go to bat for me if needed.
Execs- "If they can do 4 10s why not 5 10s?"
Me: “Because fuck you. That’s why.”
I work a four day week, and I don’t cram at all. I do my M-Th, and enjoy 3 days off (well, 2 1/2)
Sarah Green Carmichael works out of her home and wouldn't know what a 5 day work week + commute looks like.
Fuck this. Why not just go for a three day week 3x7 hours. The economy and society will quickly adjust to this as the norm except for businesses that are obsessed about growth. If you’re obsessed about growth, talk to a cancer patient because the obsession about growth is probably what causes cancer in most people. The obsession about growth in the business workplace causes uncontrolled growth (cancer) in the people who are forced to participate.
We cant even get the damn minimum wage increased to a reasonable level. Hell, they still haven't gotten rid of daylight savings time. Both of which have majority support of the the people. At our current rate of progress, it'll be another 100 years before this becomes a serious point of discussion. I think it's a great idea, fully support it and would love to see it happen. I'm just pointing out that until we can get the government to stop fucking over the people every time we turn around, this is nothing more than a dangling fruit meant to distract.
I’m totally onboard with the “4x8” workweek; but until then, I just switched to 4x10. I work from home, so already had a pretty nice arrangement (comparatively speaking) - but having an extra day off has been great. I saw something along the lines that everyone should have 3 days off: one to decompress, one to run/complete errands, and one for fun/recreation. I couldn’t agree more - this 4 day workweek (still 40 hours) has allowed me to catch up on things I’d otherwise be too exhausted to do. Again, to reiterate, I’m still all in favor of the 32 hr workweek :-)
Pretty clear at this point the french solution a la 18th century is our only fix.
I never understood why anyone ever thinks that's truly better or why people hype it up. I used to work 4x10s and it's just a different kind of exhausted. That's more of my waking day thrown away. Progress starts at 5x6s and we go down from there.
I've worked 4x10s, I like it more than 5x8s. Though tbh it really should just be 4x8s. There at min 2 hours a day where me & my coworkers aren't productive.
It's still 40 hours a week. I much prefer 4x10s than 5x8s. I'll take it.
Having worked for a county who had a 4X10 schedule, I found the extra time on the weekend engaging.
Where is it mandated that we have to work 40 hours a week?
I work 4x10s and I think I get more work done this way actually. I used to get to the end of my 8 hour day and not be able to start something because I didn’t have time to finish it, so I’d fuck around for 45 minutes. Now by the end of my 4th day I have everything done for the week plus some extra time for side projects I’ve been putting off. Plus no more of that burnt out feeling by Friday mid morning. So they’re full of shit. Also having an extra day off during the week is fucking great. I usually take Wednesday off, grocery shopping at 9am on a Wednesday is magical! And getting oil changes and hair cuts, scheduling drs appts, etc. game changer! Don’t let them fool you.
But they are ok with my 6x12s
Keeps you alert. Puts hair on your chest. You should be grateful someone offered you such a wonderful opportunity to just work every waking moment.
I've been working four 10s for 15 years. It's been amazing and I've loved it. But I actually like work and love what I do.
ok.. we'll take 4x32 with no drop in pay
I work 4 day work weeks with Wednesday being my 3rd day off. 8 hour 12 hour off 8 hour 12 hour off off. As soon as I’m starting to get a little burnt out, I get a day off. It’s incredible
Wait….I’m really confused by this. So you work 8 then take12 hours off? Then work 8 and repeat? But your shift changes by 4 hours everyday because 8+12 is only 20 hours. And then you get Wednesday off?
I would work 4x10 though. They have to pay me overtime after 8 hours and I get an extra day off
It wasn't my favourite job, but the best hours I ever had were 3x12 hour shifts a week. I got a full week's pay and a 4 day weekend every week. 6pm-6am Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. I also had the option to work an extra shift if I wanted some extra money.
Construction guys will tell you that 4x10s are the best thing ever.
4x10s is a godsend, but it could still be much better
I work 4 10s by choice. I like it.
I love 4 x 10's.
I get the idea that 4x10s aren't really that much more productive, but this is one of those situations where you don't want perfection to be the enemy of progress. 4-10-hour days is still superior to 5-8-hour days in my opinion. Of course it depends on what kind of work you're doing, but having that extra day off for either rest or whatever else you want in exchange for a couple hours of the rest of the week when you didn't have a ton of free time to begin with seems like reasonable progress.
I've been working 4x10s for years. THIS IS A FUCKING LIE.
I do not agree with that opinion at all
Then stop calling it a 4 day workweek, call it a 32 hour workweek instead.
I do 3x12s and it's freaking awesome. It does the exact opposite of burning me out and gives me time to recharge and do things I want and need.
My job has me working 4 days on and 4 days off, 10 hour shifts. It’s the best part of my job and the main thing that keeps people from quitting. The schedule is so good that I can have a life without needing to take days off.
As someone who has as much work as possible shoved into alternating 5x10s and 6x10s, both Sarah Green Carmichael and her opinion can kindly suck my testicles. 4x8 schedules or I move to Germany and you can do the work yourself
Without even looking her up I am 100% confident saying that Sarah Whatever Carmichael has never done a day of real labor in her entire life
4 eights, 32 hours. Nothing more!
As someone who works 4x10s, stuff it. It isn't exploitation and it benefits me greatly by having three day weekends and town hours of uninterrupted bullshit while people aren't in the office.
I’ve worked a 4x10 schedule and fucking loved it. Obviously I’d prefer 32 hours vs 40 but if I have to work 40 I’d rather do it in four days and gain an entire day off.
I was a programmer in the '90s and I worked a 4x10 for a while when they offered it. I loved it. For one thing, I had a shitty commute and this meant dealing with it one less time. And with the longer work days, I missed the worst of the commute both ways -- I started before the peak of the morning rush hour, and left work after the peak of the evening rush. Most of my colleagues who took 4x10s wanted Fridays off, and a few wanted Mondays for a long weekend. Me? I asked for Wednesdays, especially since my boss was fine with me occasionally changing to Monday or Friday if we were going away for a long weekend. I loved not having more than two work days in a row -- Monday/Tuesday, day off, Thursday/Friday, two days off. It made Tuesday actually feel like a mini-Friday. And again, if we needed a long weekend to go away, my boss was always OK with it. I never noticed that I was given "more work" because of it -- just that the work I had needed to be done in four (longer) days instead of five.
Working 40 hours a week burns you out, not how the hours are distributed!
We were offered the choice of 4x10's or sticking with the 5x8's that always end up being 9+ hours every day because of service hours are longer than the work day. Switching to 4x10's means I actually work my 40 and go home. They win because 10 hours covers the service hours. We win because we aren't working unwanted overtime every day.
Lol "cramming more work into less days" is funny too read since they'll cram as much work into you as possible *regardless* of the days.
A four day, 10 hour a day work week most certain does *NOT* burn you out. I've been working them for 17 years now. What burns you out is spending 5 out of 7 days working. That extra day off is magical. Don't listen to these people. The only thing that would make it better is if it went to 32 hours instead of 40.
I’d much rather 4x10s than 5x8s.
I do 4 10s but can come an hour late or leave an hour early so it's really 9. So we work an hour extra each day and get a third day off. Works for us.
I did four day work weeks and they were great. Actually have time to rest and recover while getting chores done. Might be doing panama schedule soon and that sounds even better.
I work 45-50 hours every week on a 4 day schedule, and I would still absolutely choose it over the typical 40hr/5day schedule.
A 4-day week is supposed to reduce work, not cram it all into fewer days
I work a 4 day work week. I really think 5 days is much harder due to having to get prepared and traveling to and from the office. And I have to mentally prepare myself for dealing with my job another day of the week. I'm all about 4 day work weeks and even more for a 32 hour workweek at the same pay.
I’ll do 4 8h shifts for a livable wage of at least $30h
They miss the point Its 4 days with the same hours and workload
I work 4x9, I have a day off every wednesday, so I never have to work more than 2 days in a row. Anyway, today the weather will be great so I’m getting up in a minute and start my dat with a stroll through the forest. And the rest of the day I’m going to read a book on my balcony in the sun.
4 8s is ideal, but 4 10s is better, imo, than 5 8s.
Had a conversation with a guy a while back and he told me his company had gone to the four day work week. I was super-excited, as I'm still 5x8. He said the longer days were hard at first, and he had to also work some Saturdays. I was like, dude, that *isn't* the four day work week, they've scammed you.
It’s such stupid propaganda
This may sound crazy, but how about 4x8 instead?