I studied in NYC and initially planned to work and to stay longer in USA after graduation. But after working out the expenses and taxes, it’s just not worth the efforts.
I have to say the opportunities are fantastic, with more freedom and room to grow professionally and loads of entrepreneurship culture to start your own business eventually. I still visit USA from time to time to catch up with friends and explore opportunities there.
I would say come to NYC to work by yourself first before bringing your family over. That way, you can gauge on the expenses and lifestyle better. Best of luck!
Doesn't really sound that amazing of an opportunity... What's the duration? What's the career prospect? What if the company lay you off or fire you? Currently on single income or partner also working? What's the end goal, to migrate or return to Singapore after how many years? NS obligation for your child?
>Pay on offer is comparable to salary here but will definitely come out behind once tax is factored in.
Would've stopped here if i were you. Given that you have some intention to uproot your family the risk is SIGNIFICANT on your side.
You're an expat, you should get expat pay, at least double or maybe 40k usd more post-tax to cover part of your massive rent in nyc for your whole family.
2 kids in primary school already if you move them in the short term you need to mentally prepare for the worst. And i mean *mentally prepare*. Throw tantrums, homesick, cannot adjust all are just surface level issues.
So before you consider moving, negotiate your salary. Bring the topic of bringing your family over, your kids education affected and you need X amount extra to mitigate your risk on your family.
Good luck
Doesn’t sound like expat package… prob giving him local package. I’ve colleagues who applied to us job openings and managed to move but they were given local package cus not on expat level
Yea exactly, thats why i said he needs to negotiate for an expact package because of his situation to basically move his entire family over. Maybe he expat level but company just trying to reduce cost?
If he's single and offered the package he's offered now. Fuck it, i would go without thinking twice if i were him.
Many companies don't give expat packages any more. It's much more common you get employed on local terms and conditions and local pay scale, but with a one-off relocation payment. If you get a true expat package with higher pay and allowances to return home every so often, you either are extremely senior, or have a very generous employer.
Yea so that means OP's current SG pay must be on the top 5% side to be able to move with a peace of mind with the current ties he have.
If his hypothetical 300k sgd convert to usd is true and his wife is supportive of his decision, he should have no problem adjusting in NYC.
Unfortunately thats the key information we dont have and i'm just assuming he's earning maybe 10-15k sgd per month, which is technically enough if convert to USD but a struggle to save, maybe even bleed his savings for a few months till everything settles.
And that's just on the topic of money alone. What if 6-12 months down the road of this commitment, wife/kids cannot adjust or dont want to adjust? That's an additional risk to think about lo.
Yeah in my current company, they also “localize” the expats after some time. Convert from expat package to a local package (but I assume still quite generous even in local terms)
Did so for a few years when I had no kids so was a great experience.
What's the upside in your case though? Don't see much of this being mentioned.
Also NYC gonna be expensive so not sure if your accomodations gonna be paid for
Based on the information you've given, I don't really see much upside tbh
Ur company should pay U salary, relocation fees as well as lodging, moving your family fees.
Otherwise, em... why bother to move. Change job still can get a 20~30% pay jump
It depends on how much they pay you. Lunch is $18 USD for a takeout bowl so I only show up to the office when there’s free food
I wouldn’t worry too much about ‘culture shock’ or ‘racism’. No one bothered me in school and they were all very nice and easy to fit in with
Let me put it to you this way: your salary may be a wash now, but an American job is a ticket to another, much better paying American job
Does your spouse intend to be working? NY is sibeh expensive and really not worth it unless both parents can bring in good salary. Ultimately, it's not a financial plus, so is the benefits to you on the career progression front worth it? You want to stay there for how long? Come back before P6 or continue into US middle and high?
Raising a family in NYC area is not for the faint-hearted. Public school? Private school? You would probably want to execute this move before beginning of fall school year so you don't have much time.
If it's a relatively short term posting (2- years), have you considered going alone instead? At least, try it for a couple of years before making the move?
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments. They are really helpful and provide different perspectives.
Can’t edit my post but some additional information which some commenters have touched on:
- In absolute dollar terms pay on offer is the same, so works out to ~35% pay bump after conversion and before taxes. So for example S$300k salary now and USD$300k salary to move. Bonuses will be the same (same bonus plan globally). Not sure how that compares after taking into account cost of living.
- No expat package on offer at my company and I suspect that’s the case for most MNCs these days unless very senior management (which I am not lol). I am yet to negotiate but they will only cover relocation expenses and maybe help finding a rental. After that I’m on my own.
- Wife’s work is actually pretty mobile so no issues for her to move and she is happy to work this through to see if feasible or not. Like many commenters she is most concerned about the kids.
- No real long term plans - if we move it would definitely not be with the plan of coming back after X years but see where the job leads. Son will need to come back for NS for sure though but that’s 10 years away. Absolutely not going to let him default that’s for sure. Heard too many horror stories on defaulters.
Absolutely not worth it. You're going to need to pay US taxes, lose your company paid CPF portion, need to pay rent (rent in New York is possibly even more ridiculous than in SG). New York is far more dangerous than Singapore (literally everyone I know who has been there has heard gun shots, ranging from far from them to literally the next alley, even those on holiday), you don't have the cheap schools to send your kid to like in SG. Price of food is higher as well (even groceries not particularly cheap anymore unless all you're eating is junk)
Your company is inconveniencing YOU to move, you shouldn't be losing ANY money to move there.
You can do far better than a 35% pay bump. Your cost of living is going to shoot up 45% at the very least. Don’t let your company gyp you
People are paid more for the same job in the US
Let's assume you are paid 300k usd in NYC and wife is happy to support you and you are willing to struggle in the short term.(Edit: want to emphasize the importance of wife support here because if she isnt happy your marriage high chance gg. This is a good thing)
Lets say worse case scenario your wife decides to spend time taking care of your kids to ensure they settle well in nyc and household income is 300k usd pre-tax. I think a family of 4 should be able to get by with minimal savings in NYC. Just a hunch.
Thats assuming you really make 300k usd pre tax. If thats pure hypothetical and you are actually just gonna make 100k usd i would think twice. Because your bank account will bleed for sure
Found a job in Japan from Singapore, been working here for more than a few years now.
1. Financially, you will never come out ahead.
1. Taxes are significantly higher, costs and bills are definitely higher too.
2. Maintaining 2 residences (ie your rent in NYC and HDB in SG) is definitely gonna be a drain, even if you manage to rent it out.
3. Singapore salaries are actually pretty high with respect to the rest of the world now. It's not uncommon to hear foreigners come to Singapore for a pay raise.
2. You might experience culture shock. Working and living in other countries definitely entails different customs and culture, and you might not have the energy to adapt to the living cultures and customs on top of whatever work stresses and shit.
1. [**Seasonal affective disorder**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder) is actually a thing, and a lot of Singaporeans who have no experience living in a country with seasons might get hit with it and not know why they're feeling depressed for half the year.
3. Your spouse and dependents might not be able to adapt to a new culture. NYC might not be so bad, but you'll basically be cut off from a big portion of your social support system and may not have anyone to talk through whatever personal or family problems that crop up.
Those were the cons, but on the flip side
1. Life is a lot richer. For whatever loss in financial remuneration, I feel it gets made up for with an increased richness in life:
* you get to experience four seasons
* there are a lot of places to see and explore, not just in NYC but the surrounding countryside
* you get to interact with lots of people from other culture other than your own
* it's easy to take short weekend trips and holidays to New Jersey or neighbouring states, go camping, go for a hike etc.
* Also, the job market and economy is just that much bigger there, you'll definitely get increased career opportunities be it changing jobs or just more responsibilities and experience.
If you're someone who expects life to follow a fixed script and path, with an expected outcome at the end of it, I wouldn't take it. But if you like an adventure, take risks, can deal with problems (and **potentially mistakes and failure**) and learn to live with them, I'd say go for it. But of course, as with every risk, there is potential for gains and potential for loss.
Must negotiable your salary. I am a US citizen. Lived in Singapore for a while (20 years ago) and now back in the US. Cost of living is huge in New York compared to Singapore. Prepare for winter weather in New York. You might like it or hate it. Good luck and wish you the best.
I was on a L1B visa and was laid off. I was fortunate that I could apply for a Green Card via marriage, which I was already planning to do before the layoff, but I had other laid-off coworkers who had to return to their home countries.
If you were single, I would have said to do it for the experience, but with a family it's a lot more difficult IMO. There's very little job security in the US.
If you're thinking of going for a Green Card, I've heard that many companies have stopped sponsoring them in the past year. Not sure if that will change in the future.
worked overseas in the US. loved it, would do it again. Tax was around effective 35+% for NYC, rent around 6k usd per month for a 2bd place in manhattan, 3-4k usd for 1bd.
schools for kids in private schools can run around 3k usd per month per child in NYC iirc.
it definitely depends on your "pay". If it's 200k sgd, and around 150k usd per year offer for you, vs 500k sgd / 380k usd... then it's a different story.
IMO, there's something to be said to be at HQ and working side by side with everyone else making the actual decisions. It's worth it for someone with no kids. With kids in primary school, it's a much harder decision.
I relocated to an European country, conditions were definitely different than NY and from your situation as I went alone. I took a pay raise but with taxation being at almost 50% and high rent + bills, quite hard to get savings. Groceries as well was pricey. But in general despite the high taxes healthcare and dental is provided, but I didn't need to use any of it for that time so was not worth the while. Faced racism while walking down a liberal shopping street too.
The company I worked for is a start up so there was no relocation perks. Another company offered me - provided 1 month hotel for me to find the lodging, offered to pay for my flight and logistics of moving of my things there. They also offered to cover my rent, phone bills, monthly transport fee and 1 x a year travel back to my home country. They also give holiday money (2k euros a year). Another friend even negotiated to have his taxes paid by the company. Maybe these things can be considered looking at when negotiating.
I find that in general moving abroad in the current climate is not worthwhile, moreover you are headed to New York, inflation is over the top, and they have all sorts of homeless migrants there, supported by the government (given credit cards for free) which is quite dangerous at the moment. As well as hate crime against Asian. I'd say the priority to look out for is safety rather than money when you move since you have kids coming with you, and New York, and the rest of US is not the most ideal place to go to at this point of time in it's current political and economic climate.
300k usd in NYC is very comfortable, but also depends on your lifestyle and expectations. If your partner’s job is mobile and able to get work visa in US too, I think you will be fine. NYC is huge, so can always look for a place with the right vibe and budget fit. 300k sgd in sg goes a lot further than 300k usd in nyc.
Not sure how old your kids are but I second other comments that once you leave sg school system, it can be tough to reintegrate back. SG schools are extremely content heavy, so after a few years in US they will probably be behind. But on the bright side, SG will have prepared your kids very well and likely will do very well academically in US.
I wouldn’t worry too much about racism in NYC, it’s very diverse and a pretty fantastic city to live in. But, you wouldn’t be the racial majority - and that might come with its own surprises if you aren’t used to that.
I think logistically sounds like you will be fine. It’s about whether you have things to look forward to about living in NYC. If you are open to new experiences and challenges, I think you will really enjoy it. It’s a fantastic and very vibrant city.
Kids education will probably be the main issue. If you pull the kids out of SG public school chances are they will never be able to integrate back. This means that if you ever come back they will need to go international schools... Where fees are like 40k per year per kid. I had colleagues who did that and had to put their kids thru the international school system
Why won't they be able to integrate? Will MOE let them go to international school at Singaporean citizens? They are unlikely to get US citizenship after being there just for a couple of years
Well there's the MTL which the kids will definitely missed out on and will have problem catching back.
Without the MTL, PSLE and olevels will be a challenge.
Not to mention the total desynchronized curriculum where SG favors the rote learning approach and kids will have difficulty doing well.
Singaporean students are not allowed to be in international school under the age of 16 without an exemption from MOE for a specific reason, such as a learning disability. So the earlier point likely won't apply for this family and shouldn't be included in the list of reasons for not going.
Just to chime in here that my family moved back from the states when my sister was 6 (we were there for 3 years) and she got a full exemption from Chinese in all major exams. We had no issue with integrating back and went to public primary school
I agree with most comments, but vast majority are clueless. Zero chance a global mnc will give you an expat package. That isn't a thing in the states.
If expat package means they'll pay for your move - then sure. You won't make more in the states. It's for the experience and potential networking opps
I say do it. Because of my parent's work, I moved a lot around as a kid (three countries before I turned 18) and I consider it one of the most interesting and influential parts of my life.
OP is considering internal transfer so they'll be on the L visa. H1B1s for SGers are never oversubscribed anyway, it's also renewable so no need to join the H1B pool. Don't understand about the rental part, I guess OP is talking about private property. I agree racism in NYC (I assume it's NYC not New York State) isn't a problem, very diverse, lots of Asians. Can live outside of NYC or in a less fancy borough.
The kids and SO part is the problem - no idea about schools, it's hard enough for locals - best to ask an SGers overseas group.
I actually have an L1 visa already sponsored by my company so that’s one less thing to worry about. I understand they can be renewed as long as company continues to sponsor.
You can renew H-1B1 basically indefinitely (source: my experience and experiences of friends) just have to get a new LCA after 3 years which is going through the same motions anyway.
>During that time, if you want to continue to stay after 3 years, you'd have to apply for the H-1B
Wait really? I know of someone who has stayed in the US for over 10 years on the H-1B1. Yearly renewals, of course.
The bigger question is: what is your end goal? Do you see your family migrating to the US completely or you will want to come back to SIngapore eventually? (this is something that both spouses need to agree on)
If the former: I'd so go for it, try your best to get a greencard and good luck
If the latter: the move could be good for your career but integrating back to Singapore (for both your kids and spouse) would be very tricky. You didn't mention the ages of your kids nor the situation of your spouse (assuming is your wife). She'll need to quit work. Does her field of work allows her to stop work for a while without major setback to her career? Is she someone who values work? For your children: If they're upper primary e.g. anywhere p3 and above, I'd say forget it, unless like someone commented, you're prepared to send them to international school when they come back (MOE do grant exceptions to Sgporean/PR to enter International Sch on a case by case basis). The younger they are, the easier for you to take this chance and not hurt their integrating back to Singapore.
The crux of the matter - don't go just because your company offered. US pay and career paths might be better, but not everyone values that. Singapore is "good enough" especially with a family, all things considered. Exceptions come when your children are not academically inclined/special needs, than I'd say, move to the Western countries with better social acceptance and more choices of life pathways, by hook or by crook.
I'm only going to comment on the package. Idk what you mean by comparable salary. Are they not offering you NY market rate? If they are not, it's a bad deal.
Unless the pay is a lot better. What about health insurance? Are you and family covered ? Company pays for your accommodations ? Pays for your children’a education ?
Expatriate terms are not something the U.S. does for people at his level. They will offer relocation, but that’s about it
He can expect to pay between $400-$1300/mo for Health Insurance for the entire family, depending on the deductible chosen. Dental and Optical would run another $50/mo or so
Without an expat package (bare minimum) and salary increment or a separate compensation to offset the difference in tax I will not even consider this.
I don't know what kind of company you work for that will give this kind of offer to get someone to move to another country but at the bare minimum they should have at least an expat package ready. Finer details of the expat package can be further discussed.
This is going to be a hard no for me. Don't even need to think.
Source: I've been working overseas for the last 9 years with the same company.
Singaporean living in the US here but not New York. I do have friends there whom I've visited some years back so I have some sort of idea of what it's like.
You should check the typical salary for your position in New York. I'm assuming you're talking about living in Manhattan, New York City? It's basically the most expensive city to live in the US. Shouldn't you be making at least equal or more than your current income after taxes?
I don't know if it still applies these days but when I was looking to rent in Manhattan (I was considering a job there), the rent has to be 1/3 of your income or less. Where can you live based on that? Have you looked into the different neighborhoods? If you're highly paid, it shouldn't be a problem.... Also, if it still applies, you might have to go through a broker in NY - even for renting.
Racism shouldn't be an issue in NYC. It's very diverse. But I think culture shock is likely. Get used to seeing homelessness (although I don't think it's as bad as San Francisco). The NY summers are hot and humid and even my SG-born friend who lives there says it's horrible. In winter, there can be blizzards. If you check out Casey Neistat's video of him skiing through NYC, you'll get an idea of what it might be like. One summer, I went to visit a friend on the Upper West side and the air was filled with dog pee smell.... Anyway, all that to say, it'll take a little adjustment. Also, New York is a very old city so expect to see rats now and then.
Has your family been to NYC? How long do you intend to stay? I'm not sure about the education part - you might want to check out a NY based sub. I heard that the prestigious schools are hard to get in but I don't know the details.
Good luck! If you decide to come, it would be an adventure for the family. Just make sure you can afford the rent, expenses, etc. NYC is very expensive. Oh, for any move, it takes about 6 months to feel like you're settled in.
Yes, if such an opportunity lands on your lap and you do not have any financial obligations, please take it up. I briefly lived and worked in the States. Besides learning about new working cultures, make use of the chance to do some travelling and exploration.
If you're not getting an expat package or not even a local+ plus package, it is probably not worth it unless it's an almost guaranteed path to senior management. Your spouse may not be able to find a job easily over there and 2 middle management salaries are better unless you hit the heights.
don’t accept if the company doesn’t compensate you for your wife’s income loss, kids school fees, relocation expenses, moving expenses, medical & travel insurance premiums ( whole family ), transportation allowance. my boss relocated with these benefits. able to send 2 kids to international school, wife staying at home , rental all covered, transport covered, 2x flight ticket home on premium / business class. he saved so much that he took MBA part time and fly around.
he works for 3 years overseas before moving back home . gets a better job and better pay
>Renting out current place here is going to be a huge pita. Selling is not really an option atm. With the soft rental rate, having to pay stupid property prices on rental property and sky high interest rates will definitely be out of pocket every month on mortgage.
This was my major issue when I moved. Every agent claims to be the best.
"Our listing moves really fast"
I bled for 2 years before getting a tenant, and the rental didn't even cover my mortgage. Right after the tenancy, I was able to get rid of the place and never need to look back.
Don’t forget the USD to SGD exchange rate. You’ll bring back $1.35 SGD for every $1 USD you save.
I did the math a while back and $100k in SG and $100k in USD ends up about the same amount after taxes.
But check and see what the benefits are. Added in they made the total comp much higher in the US (401k match, stock grants, etc)
Sounds like a pretty trash deal if you're not earning at least 1.5x of what you earn in SG. Kids will definitely suffer and New York is not a nice place to raise a family.
Imo I think if you ask anyone here, it's all pessimistic and nobody would suggest moving, it's, a massive echo chamber of how Singapore is so much better. I've never seen anyone here bother to look beyond the numbers, because it's always worse.
There is a lot of intangible benefits that you might want to consider, including the fact that your children will grow up with a very different perspective in life and that there is a far bigger freedom as to what one can pursue in SG.
The huge factor in OP's case is the 2 primary school kids - getting into an NYC school is hard enough for locals, even if money wasn't a factor. Raising two kids in NYC is a challenge even for high flyers in NYC - you can't just let the kids ride the metro to school alone etc. Parent will have to chauffeur them everywhere - help is not cheap; people talk about easy access to national parks etc but planning a trip is not so easy IRL... traffic, taking time off from work and school as new arrivals...
I agree on the freedoms and perspectives, it's easy enough as an adult but with kids its a whole different ballgame..
I'm not a parent but I won't put my 2 kids through getting uprooted and moving halfway across the world. As you already said, they may face racism and culture shock too.
No la on the whole they’re nice. Never had any issues in the North American school system - of course OP should do a little work to make sure their kids don’t end up in a particularly deprived school district
Yeah, slim, to the order of 1 in 10 million. The odds of the kid being struck by lightning in any given year is 1 in 1.2 million
Good tradeoff for setting the kid up for success. I got paid USD today while cleaning my cars
Haha I was based in NY for 2 years and then Austin for another year before moving back to SG.
I can sense we have fundamentally different views on living in US so let’s agree to disagree. Wishing you and the family good health!
I have completely different thoughts.
As a child, I’d have loved to move halfway across the world to experience a different city. NYC is very globalised - there has been more culture amazement than shock, and I haven’t recalled any instances of racism bad enough for me to feel deterred from the people here.
As long as you choose an appropriate neighbourhood and school, the kids will be fine. There’s plenty of asian-americans (yellow-skin people like us) here.
Source: Typing this from my NYC apartment - I grew up in Singapore but live here now.
Ngl man it’s overhyped - there’s nothing here that I haven’t seen done better somewhere else (except the dirt ig). Soon as I find something remote + better paying I’m dipping
I can see the appeal for someone from the boonies or the third world or with a love for public transit, but I want to live in a nice suburb with wide roads and fences
Haha I think we just have very different preferences. I had a choice between NYC and LA/SF, but eventually chose NYC because I much, much prefer big cities like that. I used to live in London and also really enjoyed being able to walk everywhere and having convenient access to amenities about every other corner.
I’m thoroughly enjoying Manhattan!
I can die doing what I love (driving car, great American outdoors, Appalachia), than what I hate (getting in a tube with smelly people)
I didn’t take transit in SG I’m not going to fucking start now
Lol, ok. I'm surprised I can hear you given the squawking of bald eagles, the rustling of American flags and the revving of engines over Toby Keith music
I moved to three different countries before I was 18 because of my parent's work, and went to school with kids who had similar life experiences. Everyone I know would do the same for their kids (including me) if they had a chance. Travel always broadens your perspectives.
All of my friends who moved to US are doing so on a worse-off basis compensation wise. What they value instead is more of the experience you will never get in SG. You would have to evaluate how much the non-monetary upside means to you next to all the other trade offs.
Not sure why you get down voted but I agree even Tho dollars and cents are important, sometimes the chance of a change in lifestyle or opportunity is worth the risk.
No expat package?? Weird to need to pay rental if your company transfer you to USA and why do you need to worry about your family, don’t the company cover those?
Culture shock? I am more comfortable in NYC than I am here.
Price wise, honestly, in Queens you'd pay the same if not less than in Singapore for the same amount of space; just depends where you're staying.
I studied in NYC and initially planned to work and to stay longer in USA after graduation. But after working out the expenses and taxes, it’s just not worth the efforts. I have to say the opportunities are fantastic, with more freedom and room to grow professionally and loads of entrepreneurship culture to start your own business eventually. I still visit USA from time to time to catch up with friends and explore opportunities there. I would say come to NYC to work by yourself first before bringing your family over. That way, you can gauge on the expenses and lifestyle better. Best of luck!
Doesn't really sound that amazing of an opportunity... What's the duration? What's the career prospect? What if the company lay you off or fire you? Currently on single income or partner also working? What's the end goal, to migrate or return to Singapore after how many years? NS obligation for your child?
>Pay on offer is comparable to salary here but will definitely come out behind once tax is factored in. Would've stopped here if i were you. Given that you have some intention to uproot your family the risk is SIGNIFICANT on your side. You're an expat, you should get expat pay, at least double or maybe 40k usd more post-tax to cover part of your massive rent in nyc for your whole family. 2 kids in primary school already if you move them in the short term you need to mentally prepare for the worst. And i mean *mentally prepare*. Throw tantrums, homesick, cannot adjust all are just surface level issues. So before you consider moving, negotiate your salary. Bring the topic of bringing your family over, your kids education affected and you need X amount extra to mitigate your risk on your family. Good luck
Doesn’t sound like expat package… prob giving him local package. I’ve colleagues who applied to us job openings and managed to move but they were given local package cus not on expat level
Yea exactly, thats why i said he needs to negotiate for an expact package because of his situation to basically move his entire family over. Maybe he expat level but company just trying to reduce cost? If he's single and offered the package he's offered now. Fuck it, i would go without thinking twice if i were him.
Many companies don't give expat packages any more. It's much more common you get employed on local terms and conditions and local pay scale, but with a one-off relocation payment. If you get a true expat package with higher pay and allowances to return home every so often, you either are extremely senior, or have a very generous employer.
Yea so that means OP's current SG pay must be on the top 5% side to be able to move with a peace of mind with the current ties he have. If his hypothetical 300k sgd convert to usd is true and his wife is supportive of his decision, he should have no problem adjusting in NYC. Unfortunately thats the key information we dont have and i'm just assuming he's earning maybe 10-15k sgd per month, which is technically enough if convert to USD but a struggle to save, maybe even bleed his savings for a few months till everything settles. And that's just on the topic of money alone. What if 6-12 months down the road of this commitment, wife/kids cannot adjust or dont want to adjust? That's an additional risk to think about lo.
Yeah in my current company, they also “localize” the expats after some time. Convert from expat package to a local package (but I assume still quite generous even in local terms)
US companies don't give expat packages - same pay for US citizens vs visa holders.
Did so for a few years when I had no kids so was a great experience. What's the upside in your case though? Don't see much of this being mentioned. Also NYC gonna be expensive so not sure if your accomodations gonna be paid for Based on the information you've given, I don't really see much upside tbh
Ur company should pay U salary, relocation fees as well as lodging, moving your family fees. Otherwise, em... why bother to move. Change job still can get a 20~30% pay jump
It depends on how much they pay you. Lunch is $18 USD for a takeout bowl so I only show up to the office when there’s free food I wouldn’t worry too much about ‘culture shock’ or ‘racism’. No one bothered me in school and they were all very nice and easy to fit in with Let me put it to you this way: your salary may be a wash now, but an American job is a ticket to another, much better paying American job
Does your spouse intend to be working? NY is sibeh expensive and really not worth it unless both parents can bring in good salary. Ultimately, it's not a financial plus, so is the benefits to you on the career progression front worth it? You want to stay there for how long? Come back before P6 or continue into US middle and high? Raising a family in NYC area is not for the faint-hearted. Public school? Private school? You would probably want to execute this move before beginning of fall school year so you don't have much time.
If it's a relatively short term posting (2- years), have you considered going alone instead? At least, try it for a couple of years before making the move?
Thank you everyone for your thoughts and comments. They are really helpful and provide different perspectives. Can’t edit my post but some additional information which some commenters have touched on: - In absolute dollar terms pay on offer is the same, so works out to ~35% pay bump after conversion and before taxes. So for example S$300k salary now and USD$300k salary to move. Bonuses will be the same (same bonus plan globally). Not sure how that compares after taking into account cost of living. - No expat package on offer at my company and I suspect that’s the case for most MNCs these days unless very senior management (which I am not lol). I am yet to negotiate but they will only cover relocation expenses and maybe help finding a rental. After that I’m on my own. - Wife’s work is actually pretty mobile so no issues for her to move and she is happy to work this through to see if feasible or not. Like many commenters she is most concerned about the kids. - No real long term plans - if we move it would definitely not be with the plan of coming back after X years but see where the job leads. Son will need to come back for NS for sure though but that’s 10 years away. Absolutely not going to let him default that’s for sure. Heard too many horror stories on defaulters.
advise you to check if your wife is eligible to work LEGALLY on the visa sponsored. on some spouse visas, it's is not allowed.
Absolutely not worth it. You're going to need to pay US taxes, lose your company paid CPF portion, need to pay rent (rent in New York is possibly even more ridiculous than in SG). New York is far more dangerous than Singapore (literally everyone I know who has been there has heard gun shots, ranging from far from them to literally the next alley, even those on holiday), you don't have the cheap schools to send your kid to like in SG. Price of food is higher as well (even groceries not particularly cheap anymore unless all you're eating is junk) Your company is inconveniencing YOU to move, you shouldn't be losing ANY money to move there.
You can do far better than a 35% pay bump. Your cost of living is going to shoot up 45% at the very least. Don’t let your company gyp you People are paid more for the same job in the US
Let's assume you are paid 300k usd in NYC and wife is happy to support you and you are willing to struggle in the short term.(Edit: want to emphasize the importance of wife support here because if she isnt happy your marriage high chance gg. This is a good thing) Lets say worse case scenario your wife decides to spend time taking care of your kids to ensure they settle well in nyc and household income is 300k usd pre-tax. I think a family of 4 should be able to get by with minimal savings in NYC. Just a hunch. Thats assuming you really make 300k usd pre tax. If thats pure hypothetical and you are actually just gonna make 100k usd i would think twice. Because your bank account will bleed for sure
Found a job in Japan from Singapore, been working here for more than a few years now. 1. Financially, you will never come out ahead. 1. Taxes are significantly higher, costs and bills are definitely higher too. 2. Maintaining 2 residences (ie your rent in NYC and HDB in SG) is definitely gonna be a drain, even if you manage to rent it out. 3. Singapore salaries are actually pretty high with respect to the rest of the world now. It's not uncommon to hear foreigners come to Singapore for a pay raise. 2. You might experience culture shock. Working and living in other countries definitely entails different customs and culture, and you might not have the energy to adapt to the living cultures and customs on top of whatever work stresses and shit. 1. [**Seasonal affective disorder**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_affective_disorder) is actually a thing, and a lot of Singaporeans who have no experience living in a country with seasons might get hit with it and not know why they're feeling depressed for half the year. 3. Your spouse and dependents might not be able to adapt to a new culture. NYC might not be so bad, but you'll basically be cut off from a big portion of your social support system and may not have anyone to talk through whatever personal or family problems that crop up. Those were the cons, but on the flip side 1. Life is a lot richer. For whatever loss in financial remuneration, I feel it gets made up for with an increased richness in life: * you get to experience four seasons * there are a lot of places to see and explore, not just in NYC but the surrounding countryside * you get to interact with lots of people from other culture other than your own * it's easy to take short weekend trips and holidays to New Jersey or neighbouring states, go camping, go for a hike etc. * Also, the job market and economy is just that much bigger there, you'll definitely get increased career opportunities be it changing jobs or just more responsibilities and experience. If you're someone who expects life to follow a fixed script and path, with an expected outcome at the end of it, I wouldn't take it. But if you like an adventure, take risks, can deal with problems (and **potentially mistakes and failure**) and learn to live with them, I'd say go for it. But of course, as with every risk, there is potential for gains and potential for loss.
Must negotiable your salary. I am a US citizen. Lived in Singapore for a while (20 years ago) and now back in the US. Cost of living is huge in New York compared to Singapore. Prepare for winter weather in New York. You might like it or hate it. Good luck and wish you the best.
SG rentals have caught up with NYC (am talking Manhattan) prices, tbh COL in SG is almost up there with NYC.
I was on a L1B visa and was laid off. I was fortunate that I could apply for a Green Card via marriage, which I was already planning to do before the layoff, but I had other laid-off coworkers who had to return to their home countries. If you were single, I would have said to do it for the experience, but with a family it's a lot more difficult IMO. There's very little job security in the US. If you're thinking of going for a Green Card, I've heard that many companies have stopped sponsoring them in the past year. Not sure if that will change in the future.
worked overseas in the US. loved it, would do it again. Tax was around effective 35+% for NYC, rent around 6k usd per month for a 2bd place in manhattan, 3-4k usd for 1bd. schools for kids in private schools can run around 3k usd per month per child in NYC iirc. it definitely depends on your "pay". If it's 200k sgd, and around 150k usd per year offer for you, vs 500k sgd / 380k usd... then it's a different story. IMO, there's something to be said to be at HQ and working side by side with everyone else making the actual decisions. It's worth it for someone with no kids. With kids in primary school, it's a much harder decision.
I relocated to an European country, conditions were definitely different than NY and from your situation as I went alone. I took a pay raise but with taxation being at almost 50% and high rent + bills, quite hard to get savings. Groceries as well was pricey. But in general despite the high taxes healthcare and dental is provided, but I didn't need to use any of it for that time so was not worth the while. Faced racism while walking down a liberal shopping street too. The company I worked for is a start up so there was no relocation perks. Another company offered me - provided 1 month hotel for me to find the lodging, offered to pay for my flight and logistics of moving of my things there. They also offered to cover my rent, phone bills, monthly transport fee and 1 x a year travel back to my home country. They also give holiday money (2k euros a year). Another friend even negotiated to have his taxes paid by the company. Maybe these things can be considered looking at when negotiating. I find that in general moving abroad in the current climate is not worthwhile, moreover you are headed to New York, inflation is over the top, and they have all sorts of homeless migrants there, supported by the government (given credit cards for free) which is quite dangerous at the moment. As well as hate crime against Asian. I'd say the priority to look out for is safety rather than money when you move since you have kids coming with you, and New York, and the rest of US is not the most ideal place to go to at this point of time in it's current political and economic climate.
300k usd in NYC is very comfortable, but also depends on your lifestyle and expectations. If your partner’s job is mobile and able to get work visa in US too, I think you will be fine. NYC is huge, so can always look for a place with the right vibe and budget fit. 300k sgd in sg goes a lot further than 300k usd in nyc. Not sure how old your kids are but I second other comments that once you leave sg school system, it can be tough to reintegrate back. SG schools are extremely content heavy, so after a few years in US they will probably be behind. But on the bright side, SG will have prepared your kids very well and likely will do very well academically in US. I wouldn’t worry too much about racism in NYC, it’s very diverse and a pretty fantastic city to live in. But, you wouldn’t be the racial majority - and that might come with its own surprises if you aren’t used to that. I think logistically sounds like you will be fine. It’s about whether you have things to look forward to about living in NYC. If you are open to new experiences and challenges, I think you will really enjoy it. It’s a fantastic and very vibrant city.
“300k USD in NYC is very comfortable” - LOL You’re definitely not from NYC
Fair, I just looked it up again and rents are way more insane than the last time I was there. I take it back!
Sorry bro but once you have kids it's a whole different beast. Do you want to live in US forever?
Kids education will probably be the main issue. If you pull the kids out of SG public school chances are they will never be able to integrate back. This means that if you ever come back they will need to go international schools... Where fees are like 40k per year per kid. I had colleagues who did that and had to put their kids thru the international school system
Why can’t the kids integrate back
Why won't they be able to integrate? Will MOE let them go to international school at Singaporean citizens? They are unlikely to get US citizenship after being there just for a couple of years
Well there's the MTL which the kids will definitely missed out on and will have problem catching back. Without the MTL, PSLE and olevels will be a challenge. Not to mention the total desynchronized curriculum where SG favors the rote learning approach and kids will have difficulty doing well.
Singaporean students are not allowed to be in international school under the age of 16 without an exemption from MOE for a specific reason, such as a learning disability. So the earlier point likely won't apply for this family and shouldn't be included in the list of reasons for not going.
Just to chime in here that my family moved back from the states when my sister was 6 (we were there for 3 years) and she got a full exemption from Chinese in all major exams. We had no issue with integrating back and went to public primary school
I agree with most comments, but vast majority are clueless. Zero chance a global mnc will give you an expat package. That isn't a thing in the states. If expat package means they'll pay for your move - then sure. You won't make more in the states. It's for the experience and potential networking opps
I say do it. Because of my parent's work, I moved a lot around as a kid (three countries before I turned 18) and I consider it one of the most interesting and influential parts of my life.
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OP is considering internal transfer so they'll be on the L visa. H1B1s for SGers are never oversubscribed anyway, it's also renewable so no need to join the H1B pool. Don't understand about the rental part, I guess OP is talking about private property. I agree racism in NYC (I assume it's NYC not New York State) isn't a problem, very diverse, lots of Asians. Can live outside of NYC or in a less fancy borough. The kids and SO part is the problem - no idea about schools, it's hard enough for locals - best to ask an SGers overseas group.
I actually have an L1 visa already sponsored by my company so that’s one less thing to worry about. I understand they can be renewed as long as company continues to sponsor.
Yup and as a Singapore passport holder, it's no problem.
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You can renew H-1B1 basically indefinitely (source: my experience and experiences of friends) just have to get a new LCA after 3 years which is going through the same motions anyway.
>During that time, if you want to continue to stay after 3 years, you'd have to apply for the H-1B Wait really? I know of someone who has stayed in the US for over 10 years on the H-1B1. Yearly renewals, of course.
Same, have done many years on the H-1B1. Just need to resubmit LCA.
I love living in the US, but I’m unmarried and no kids
Same here, I love living in New Zealand, I'm also unmarried and no kids. A lot less variables to consider as I'm only responsible for myself.
The bigger question is: what is your end goal? Do you see your family migrating to the US completely or you will want to come back to SIngapore eventually? (this is something that both spouses need to agree on) If the former: I'd so go for it, try your best to get a greencard and good luck If the latter: the move could be good for your career but integrating back to Singapore (for both your kids and spouse) would be very tricky. You didn't mention the ages of your kids nor the situation of your spouse (assuming is your wife). She'll need to quit work. Does her field of work allows her to stop work for a while without major setback to her career? Is she someone who values work? For your children: If they're upper primary e.g. anywhere p3 and above, I'd say forget it, unless like someone commented, you're prepared to send them to international school when they come back (MOE do grant exceptions to Sgporean/PR to enter International Sch on a case by case basis). The younger they are, the easier for you to take this chance and not hurt their integrating back to Singapore. The crux of the matter - don't go just because your company offered. US pay and career paths might be better, but not everyone values that. Singapore is "good enough" especially with a family, all things considered. Exceptions come when your children are not academically inclined/special needs, than I'd say, move to the Western countries with better social acceptance and more choices of life pathways, by hook or by crook.
I'm only going to comment on the package. Idk what you mean by comparable salary. Are they not offering you NY market rate? If they are not, it's a bad deal.
Unless the pay is a lot better. What about health insurance? Are you and family covered ? Company pays for your accommodations ? Pays for your children’a education ?
Expatriate terms are not something the U.S. does for people at his level. They will offer relocation, but that’s about it He can expect to pay between $400-$1300/mo for Health Insurance for the entire family, depending on the deductible chosen. Dental and Optical would run another $50/mo or so
Without an expat package (bare minimum) and salary increment or a separate compensation to offset the difference in tax I will not even consider this. I don't know what kind of company you work for that will give this kind of offer to get someone to move to another country but at the bare minimum they should have at least an expat package ready. Finer details of the expat package can be further discussed. This is going to be a hard no for me. Don't even need to think. Source: I've been working overseas for the last 9 years with the same company.
Singaporean living in the US here but not New York. I do have friends there whom I've visited some years back so I have some sort of idea of what it's like. You should check the typical salary for your position in New York. I'm assuming you're talking about living in Manhattan, New York City? It's basically the most expensive city to live in the US. Shouldn't you be making at least equal or more than your current income after taxes? I don't know if it still applies these days but when I was looking to rent in Manhattan (I was considering a job there), the rent has to be 1/3 of your income or less. Where can you live based on that? Have you looked into the different neighborhoods? If you're highly paid, it shouldn't be a problem.... Also, if it still applies, you might have to go through a broker in NY - even for renting. Racism shouldn't be an issue in NYC. It's very diverse. But I think culture shock is likely. Get used to seeing homelessness (although I don't think it's as bad as San Francisco). The NY summers are hot and humid and even my SG-born friend who lives there says it's horrible. In winter, there can be blizzards. If you check out Casey Neistat's video of him skiing through NYC, you'll get an idea of what it might be like. One summer, I went to visit a friend on the Upper West side and the air was filled with dog pee smell.... Anyway, all that to say, it'll take a little adjustment. Also, New York is a very old city so expect to see rats now and then. Has your family been to NYC? How long do you intend to stay? I'm not sure about the education part - you might want to check out a NY based sub. I heard that the prestigious schools are hard to get in but I don't know the details. Good luck! If you decide to come, it would be an adventure for the family. Just make sure you can afford the rent, expenses, etc. NYC is very expensive. Oh, for any move, it takes about 6 months to feel like you're settled in.
Yes, if such an opportunity lands on your lap and you do not have any financial obligations, please take it up. I briefly lived and worked in the States. Besides learning about new working cultures, make use of the chance to do some travelling and exploration.
If you're not getting an expat package or not even a local+ plus package, it is probably not worth it unless it's an almost guaranteed path to senior management. Your spouse may not be able to find a job easily over there and 2 middle management salaries are better unless you hit the heights.
sucks
don’t accept if the company doesn’t compensate you for your wife’s income loss, kids school fees, relocation expenses, moving expenses, medical & travel insurance premiums ( whole family ), transportation allowance. my boss relocated with these benefits. able to send 2 kids to international school, wife staying at home , rental all covered, transport covered, 2x flight ticket home on premium / business class. he saved so much that he took MBA part time and fly around. he works for 3 years overseas before moving back home . gets a better job and better pay
>Renting out current place here is going to be a huge pita. Selling is not really an option atm. With the soft rental rate, having to pay stupid property prices on rental property and sky high interest rates will definitely be out of pocket every month on mortgage. This was my major issue when I moved. Every agent claims to be the best. "Our listing moves really fast" I bled for 2 years before getting a tenant, and the rental didn't even cover my mortgage. Right after the tenancy, I was able to get rid of the place and never need to look back.
Don’t forget the USD to SGD exchange rate. You’ll bring back $1.35 SGD for every $1 USD you save. I did the math a while back and $100k in SG and $100k in USD ends up about the same amount after taxes. But check and see what the benefits are. Added in they made the total comp much higher in the US (401k match, stock grants, etc)
But we have to factor in rent. I actually thought a 150k sgd is lesser than 150k usd after including rent and the additional expenses.
Sure, cost of living is different. I’m talking purely salary va salary after tax
Sounds like a pretty trash deal if you're not earning at least 1.5x of what you earn in SG. Kids will definitely suffer and New York is not a nice place to raise a family.
Imo I think if you ask anyone here, it's all pessimistic and nobody would suggest moving, it's, a massive echo chamber of how Singapore is so much better. I've never seen anyone here bother to look beyond the numbers, because it's always worse. There is a lot of intangible benefits that you might want to consider, including the fact that your children will grow up with a very different perspective in life and that there is a far bigger freedom as to what one can pursue in SG.
The huge factor in OP's case is the 2 primary school kids - getting into an NYC school is hard enough for locals, even if money wasn't a factor. Raising two kids in NYC is a challenge even for high flyers in NYC - you can't just let the kids ride the metro to school alone etc. Parent will have to chauffeur them everywhere - help is not cheap; people talk about easy access to national parks etc but planning a trip is not so easy IRL... traffic, taking time off from work and school as new arrivals... I agree on the freedoms and perspectives, it's easy enough as an adult but with kids its a whole different ballgame..
I'm not a parent but I won't put my 2 kids through getting uprooted and moving halfway across the world. As you already said, they may face racism and culture shock too.
No la on the whole they’re nice. Never had any issues in the North American school system - of course OP should do a little work to make sure their kids don’t end up in a particularly deprived school district
Only just need to deal with the slim yet non-zero chance there might be a shooting after second period lor I guess.
Yeah, slim, to the order of 1 in 10 million. The odds of the kid being struck by lightning in any given year is 1 in 1.2 million Good tradeoff for setting the kid up for success. I got paid USD today while cleaning my cars
Haha I was based in NY for 2 years and then Austin for another year before moving back to SG. I can sense we have fundamentally different views on living in US so let’s agree to disagree. Wishing you and the family good health!
Okay, I’ve lived here for 13 years My family on the West coast. I will convey your kind regards
I have completely different thoughts. As a child, I’d have loved to move halfway across the world to experience a different city. NYC is very globalised - there has been more culture amazement than shock, and I haven’t recalled any instances of racism bad enough for me to feel deterred from the people here. As long as you choose an appropriate neighbourhood and school, the kids will be fine. There’s plenty of asian-americans (yellow-skin people like us) here. Source: Typing this from my NYC apartment - I grew up in Singapore but live here now.
Ngl man it’s overhyped - there’s nothing here that I haven’t seen done better somewhere else (except the dirt ig). Soon as I find something remote + better paying I’m dipping I can see the appeal for someone from the boonies or the third world or with a love for public transit, but I want to live in a nice suburb with wide roads and fences
Haha I think we just have very different preferences. I had a choice between NYC and LA/SF, but eventually chose NYC because I much, much prefer big cities like that. I used to live in London and also really enjoyed being able to walk everywhere and having convenient access to amenities about every other corner. I’m thoroughly enjoying Manhattan!
Yes I want to drive my car not take a train I used to live in Seattle and drove East to go look at the mountains and the desert
Driving actually makes me more stressed haha I love the convenience of the subway. We can agree to disagree!
Okay good luck don’t get shoved onto the subway tracks
Haha thanks
You're statistically far more likely to get into a car accident that get shoved into the subway.
I can die doing what I love (driving car, great American outdoors, Appalachia), than what I hate (getting in a tube with smelly people) I didn’t take transit in SG I’m not going to fucking start now
Lol, ok. I'm surprised I can hear you given the squawking of bald eagles, the rustling of American flags and the revving of engines over Toby Keith music
I moved to three different countries before I was 18 because of my parent's work, and went to school with kids who had similar life experiences. Everyone I know would do the same for their kids (including me) if they had a chance. Travel always broadens your perspectives.
All of my friends who moved to US are doing so on a worse-off basis compensation wise. What they value instead is more of the experience you will never get in SG. You would have to evaluate how much the non-monetary upside means to you next to all the other trade offs.
Not sure why you get down voted but I agree even Tho dollars and cents are important, sometimes the chance of a change in lifestyle or opportunity is worth the risk.
No expat package?? Weird to need to pay rental if your company transfer you to USA and why do you need to worry about your family, don’t the company cover those?
Culture shock? I am more comfortable in NYC than I am here. Price wise, honestly, in Queens you'd pay the same if not less than in Singapore for the same amount of space; just depends where you're staying.