Viserys pulling out his sword and threatening to cut out Danerys’s baby and leave it for Drogo right in front of him. Braindead shit right there. Literally absolutely guaranteed himself a horrible death, which was blatantly obvious to every single person in the room except him. He did this to.. convince Drogo to invade Westeros for him? Wtf was this dude thinking?
To be fair this was also a diplomatic failing by Robb. Balon seemed somewhat amicable until he red the part of Robb's letter where Robb said "well give you your crown". Theon tried to talk through it as it was just bad wording. But seriously if you're messaging a man vain enough to crown himself and likely to do it again and you need him to help you how are you going to say you will 'give' him a crown by him attacking someone?
The North and Riverlands have access to the Iron Islands without needing to cross the Riverlands. While he currently does not have a naval force, Robb can still offer the support of his army. After all, if Balon were to help, the Westermen would have to fight on two fronts.
Moreover, Balon's dismissal of the offer by focusing on Casterly Rock as the probable invasion target doesn't speak well of his strategic insights: No prudent man would be thinking of outright taking the Rock by storm, so it is bewildering that Balon just assumes that this is Robb's target. Any man who can actually read the political map would know that Robb just needs the Lannisters to overextend themselves by fighting too many fronts at the same time in order to bring them to their knees. Essentially, Balon just has to reave the Westerlands coastline to provide value (and thereby increase his power) to the proposed partnership, which is a fairly low-risk military endeavor for his part.
The Westerlands is a large place, and not everything is easily reinforcable from the Rock. Balon could probably take (and hold) Fair Isle very easily - like his ancestor Dagon before him - and the coastline is dotted with resource-rich holdings. Hell, I think he could conceivably sack Lannisport, what with the Lannister fleet not having been rebuilt (?) and the cream of their forces being leagues away. All that gold can in turn be exchanged for arms, ship upgrades, and political capital among Balon's bannermen.
The fact that one would even need to explain that a cash infusion could be useful, speaks to how far gone Balon is with his misplaced hatred of the Starks.
Yeah, Theon Greyjoy isn’t right a lot in ACOK, but he was bang on about how an ironborn invasion of the West would have gone. His hilarious Scrooge McDuck-esque designs on Casterly Rock itself aside, Theon’s assessment is straight up correct; other than being on hand to help besiege the Rock by land, Robb wouldn’t even really need to send more than a token force. Tywin’s vassals would be cooked with noted dullard, Stafford Lannister, in charge of his reserve force.
While I agree with the sentiment, it doesnt change the stupidity of challenging Brandon to a duel unless he was explicitly and intentionally committing suicide. Maybe he was, now that I think of it.
Damn, did Catelyn get herself, Ned, Robb, and the entire Winterfell household killed by begging Brandon not to kill Littlefinger?
I think he probably thought either outcome was preferable to just letting Cat marry Brandon. If he won, he'd get to be with her and if he lost, he'd be better off dead anyway if he couldn't have her.
LF had an obsession with Catelyn, he never really loved her. He built up a fantasy in his head that had zero regard for how Catelyn actually felt or anything she ever said him.
If anyone wants to bring up how he thought he had sex with Catelyn instead of Lysa, I do not think this negates my point. He willfully deluded himself into believing Catelyn would be the one the do that.
He was also extremely drunk and it comes off as Lysa just kind of... raping him. I can't blame him there for misremembering it as Catelyn instead of her pretty similar-looking little sister.
It’s definitely Lysa’s fault and I do think it was rape but I absolutely disagree with the idea that him mistaking her for Catelyn was anything but a willful delusion. If you look at what we know about their upbringing, it’s clear that Catelyn was always proper and never did anything to give Littlefinger the idea she saw him as anything but a friend, while Lysa had a lifelong obsession with him, would kiss him etc. Lysa was also closer in age (3-4 years isn’t much for adults, but not too many 16-17 year old girls are into 13-14 year old boys, which is the best case scenario here as LF wasn’t yet 15 when he fought Brandon).
He believed it was Cat because he wanted to believe it was Cat and that his fantasy had come true. It should have been very obvious that Lysa was much more likely. It’s also apparent he never tried to talk about this with Cat afterwards (since she has no idea what Tyrion is talking about when he tells that LF claims to have taken her virginity), before he went ahead and challenged her betrothed on the assumption that she wanted to be with him instead. Makes me wonder if deep down he knew it wasn’t Cat and didn’t want the illusion to be totally shattered. Also, it’s kind of odd Lysa apparently didn’t say anything to him about it after that night (and if she did, that’s one more point in the column of “willful delusion”).
I think you are being a little too hard on him here. Albeit we know it's Littlefinger. When he grew up it's clear that Littlefinger included Lysa in his kissing games, as he tried to with Catelyn. Is that his love was clearly Catelyn it's not clear how affectionate Littlefinger was for Lysa at the time.
What we know of when he was raped is that he was at a feast where he danced 6 times with Catelyn, and then tried to kiss her but she rejected him. Wounded by this rejection he got even drunker and passed out at the table of the feast. Blackfish carried the passed-out Littlefinger to his bed to sleep in peace. Then the next thing we know is that Lysa "sneaked in" right after him to "give" him his maidenhood. We also know that he called her Cat during the exchange.
Now I get it's Littlefinger and his version of love is later manifested into something terrible. But I just think it's unfair to say he's "seeing what he wants to see". Imagine you confess to your crush while drunk and get rejected and get way drunk. Then you pass out blacked out from the booze and you are in this drunk half-awake half-sleep haze where a figure with long red hair, pale skin, and blue eyes is undressing you are trying to have sex with you. It's your crush! You have sex with her while calling out your crush's name. You wake up in the morning and she's gone...
But in reality, is was your crush's little sister who looked just like her.
I’m not saying it’s not psychologically understandable how LF came to believe that, but it’s still true that it was a willful delusion. He knew Cat well enough to know that would have been wildly out of character for her if not blinded by delusion.
Also, while I obviously wouldn’t judge teenaged LF as harshly as 30 year old LF, i don’t think his feelings for Catelyn were ever totally innocent. Even then, it’s apparent how Catelyn’s beauty and status in his mind as a prize to be won, symbolizing what he feels he’s denied by his relatively low birth (by noble standards), matter far more than who Cat was a person. If he couldn’t even have a conversation with her to confirm how she felt about him and about marrying Brandon he had absolutely no business challenging anyone to a duel over it.
A willful decision is a very bit hand much. I don't know how much of an active decision if you confess to your red-hair blue eyed white crush, and then get drunk and black out. Then her little sister who is red-haired blue-eyed and white sneaks into your room when your black out drunk and basically has sex with you when your half conscious. It is kind of ridiculous to try to pin this on him that bad.
Also I really don't know how much discourse surrounding characters 'love' where people love to go on about. No... he didn't love her, he love the idea of her! It was false love! His emotions were rooted in that she was the most beautiful object! Or something.
People love to look at negative and immoral characters and start going on these absurd break downs about emotions and love. It's all chemicals. You can break down the vast majority of 'love' or 'emotions' into these weird ways to make it seem 'fake' or not 'acceptable'. I don't think that discourse provides any value, and you almost never see it happen when a person likes the character that is being talked about.
Also I don't think Catelyn and Lysa were really that much different in 'value' or a 'prize'. Catelyn was slightly older and was heiress for maybe a couple years before Littlefinger knew her presumably. But they were both beautiful and extremely noble women who stood to inherit nothing.
>It is kind of ridiculous to try to pin this on him that bad.
I’m not talking about in the moment so much as the fact that while sober he never reflected on the fact that such an action would have been wildly out of character for Catelyn and contrary to how she behaved towards him for the rest of their lives while Lysa was clearly infatuated with him and much more likely. And even more specifically the fact that he never even tried to have a conversation with Cat about it before he went challenging Brandon to a duel on the assumption that she really wanted to marry him.
>People love to look at negative and immoral characters and start going on these absurd break downs about emotions and love. It's all chemicals.
I think this sort of lame attempt at scientific reductionism is really intellectually lazy, to be brutally honest. It is actually perfectly reasonable to want to have different terms to distinguish an unhealthy fixation based solely on one’s own desire of the other persons versus genuine love based on who the desired is as a person, concern for their well-being, respect for their feelings, etc. LF’s obsession with Cat is very clearly in the former category during the series, and I don’t think the evidence really points to it ever being in the latter category.
And it’s not that I think bad people can’t love someone else. E.g. I think Tywin is a terrible person but it seems pretty clear he loved Joanna. But it’s not surprising in any way that bad people frequently develop unhealthy and self-centered feelings towards others.
>Also I don't think Catelyn and Lysa were really that much different in 'value' or a 'prize'
That he specifically developed feelings for Cat (who was still better looking than Lysa in youth, as well as older) doesn’t mean those feelings were real love or that he didn’t see her a prize. LF’s entire lifestory after leaving Riverrun is built around feeling like he was wronged by not being able to marry Catelyn and wanting to get back and the system and individuals/families who wronged him, and it very clearly is not based around any genuine concern for Catelyn.
Sure she did refuse Littlefinger's attempt to kiss her in public. But she still did from her description love him like a brother and seemingly have a very close relationship with him. With him being predominantly the only male she grew up with other than Edmure and playing romance games with him being the Juliet and her Romeo (the Westorosi equivalents I forget).
The idea that the high born woman before she has to do her duty to be married off by her father wants to give her maidenhood to a man she knows & likes before she gets married off isn't that crazy or a story not heard before.
Littlefinger and Catelyn are also both 14-15. Talking about sex is weird and hard. If Littlefinger approached her wondering why she hasn't acted any different and was like. You want to talk about what happend at the feast? They would be having two entirely different conversations and could easily lead to a misunderstanding. He could ask her a question she could give him a response that makes sense to her but tells him a different story. It's plausible. He could take her weird non-responses as her not wanting to talk about it and it was just a fling before she got married.
>I think this sort of lame attempt at scientific reductionism is really intellectually lazy, to be brutally honest. It is actually perfectly reasonable to want to have different terms to distinguish an unhealthy fixation based solely on one’s own desire of the other persons versus genuine love based on who the desired is as a person, concern for their well-being, respect for their feelings, etc. LF’s obsession with Cat is very clearly in the former category during the series, and I don’t think the evidence really points to it ever being in the latter category. And it’s not that I think bad people can’t love someone else. E.g. I think Tywin is a terrible person but it seems pretty clear he loved Joanna. But it’s not surprising in any way that bad people frequently develop unhealthy and self-centered feelings towards others.
The definition of love that first pops up, which seems to align with everyone I see is. "an intense feeling of deep [affection](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=a5295d27d6bcdf79&q=affection&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJdHnAPX72py5RKvgkBKBidvnvUuqLokcL5DY-Xs1Tm45pmj_yZPS4AyG3d0DR_Py3kcfqL6X8xDBOu6FQOmOUV6bIsJE%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHlfeGx4eHAxXOlIkEHZGQCRkQyecJegQIQRAO)."
Which whatever Littlefinger has for Catelyn, it definitely fits under those parameters. Does it manifest in unhealthy or bad ways? Sure. He fights a duel for her hand, and gets nearly killed for it and she gets married happily ever after. This duel and his heartbreak from 'losing' Catelyn to the powerful heir of the North Brandon Stark seems to be his origin story of why he wants to become so powerful and does in the main series, doing plenty of immoral things on the way.
Your definitions of calling one "genuine love! he.. cares for her feelings and well-being! and etc!"
So you think if we saw a POV of a Young Petyr when he was actually in love and talking to Catelyn and his chapter shows him caring about her health, respecting her opinions and feelings! That his love goes from "unhealthy fixation based solely on ones own desires" to "genuine love!"?
Although personally I do not think Littlefinger is in love with Catelyn by AGoT. Nor do I really think his goals are to "destroy everyone who wronged him" I think his heart break served as a origin story for his desire & character, but not necessarily his motivaiton in AGoT. In his mind he had the love that he grew up with taken away from him because he was at the bottom of the ladder and Catelyn & Brandon were at the top, he was too lowly of a noble. So he goes into adulthood seeking and finding ways to climb to the very top of the ladder. Which I also think Littlefinger's betrayal of Eddard comes off as natural. His seemingly obsession with Catelyn only seems to overtake his desires with Sansa in the later books.
.
Yeah, this is one of those things I think makes more sense if you're a modern reader whose only exposure to these martial arts is from media, like how people fantasize about getting into a fight after watching a martial arts film. But, even a brief exposure to actual fighting against skilled and/or much stronger opponents should rob one of that wishful thinking pretty quickly.
Given that Petyr Baelish was nominally a lord in a martial society he should have received at least a *little* martial training, you'd think that he would realize that he would stand no chance against the much stronger and much more experienced Brandon Stark.
I think he might’ve known like lesson 1 material, but he was a ward away from home AND notoriously sickly and small. Seems pretty likely he either would decide not to train at all or they literally wouldn’t let him
Cersie denying the Iron Bank. Making Aurane Grand Admiral and giving him money to build a fleet of ships. Ostracizing the Tyrells. Pushing Jamie away. Filling the council with lickspittles. Rearming the Faith Militant. Basically Cersie's whole life has been full of zero IQ moments even though she thinks she's the smartest person in Westeros.
One of the best characters I’ve ever read because she’s a fucking idiot but all of her decisions make perfect sense from her stupid POV so they are fascinating to read
Syrax deciding to land and fight the Shepherd's followers rather than just staying in the air and strafing then, or going back to Rhaenyra, or doing literally anything other than make the dumbest decision a dragon has ever made through all of ASOIAF
Here's a quote from the Wiki of Ice and Fire (and the hilarious following sentence lol)
>Quentyn speaks the [Volantene](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Volantis)[^(\[1\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd6.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-1) and [Ghiscari](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ghis) tongues.[^(\[5\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd59.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-5)[^(\[11\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd68.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-11) While he can read and write [High Valyrian](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/High_Valyrian), he has had little practice in speaking it.[^(\[1\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd6.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-1) A [virgin](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Virgin),[^(\[11\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd68.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-11) Quentyn is uncomfortable around girls.
Unfortunately for him Viserion and Rhaegel didn’t give a shit about his literacy rate 😭😭
And that last line…. Daenerys took one look at him and said I’m good with my Tyroshi Stud thanks but no thanks Froggy Boy 😘
>When first he'd come to Yronwood, he had been smitten with Ynys, the eldest of Lord Yronwood's daughters. Though he never said a word about his feelings, he nursed his dreams for years … until the day she was dispatched to wed Ser Ryon Allyrion, the heir to Godsgrace. The last time he had seen her, she'd had one boy at her breast and another clinging to her skirts.
>After Ynys had come the Drinkwater twins, a pair of tawny young maidens who loved hawking, hunting, climbing rocks, and making Quentyn blush. One of them had given him his first kiss, though he never knew which one. As daughters of a landed knight, the twins were too lowborn to marry, but Cletus did not think that was any reason to stop kissing them. "After you're wed you can take one of them for a paramour. Or both, why not?" But Quentyn thought of several reasons why not, so he had done his best to avoid the twins thereafter, and there had been no second kiss.
>More recently, the youngest of Lord Yronwood's daughters had taken to following him about the castle. Gwyneth was but twelve, a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in that house of blue-eyed blondes. She was clever, though, as quick with words as with her hands, and fond of telling Quentyn that he had to wait for her to flower, so she could marry him. (ADWD The Merchant's Man)
In the books, Daenerys trained the dragons to respond to dracarys just like anyone might train a dog to respond to sit.
It's never said her ancestors also did this. It's not unreasonable that they might have as depicted in HoTD - just as everyone trains their dog in sit. But until HOTD it was technically a Dany-only thing.
So no not necessary. It's a trained behaviour regardless. Anyone can learn the basic commands.
That's not how it works. Daenerys personally taught the dragons to respond to Valyrian words like training a dog. But pretty sure she really only taught them dracarys. They don't naturally know Valyrian.
HoTD because it's so recognisable included that as something they did in the past as well.
But technically it was just Dany's idea. It's probable they landed on the same thinking independently though. Given that well they would all have spoken High Valyrian and would have thought to use certain words for certain commands.
But it does make it seem a little less unique.
Counterpoint (and this might be a little to crackpot) but what if dragons do know Valyrian? Valyrian most likely made dragons via blood magic worm hybrids. What if dragons were bred to understand Valyrian? Or Valyrian came about because the dragons understood it? Daenerys wouldn’t know this as lots of dragon riding knowledge was lost in the Dance, so she really did come up with the idea herself, but she just wasn’t the first.
But did the dragon seeds know Valyrian?
It’s possible they were taught a crash course or had previously heard the commanding words. After all, Team Black wanted successful bonds. Maybe Quentyn could pronounce it decently. Nettles is the exception, but so was her method of claiming Sheepstealer.
Cersei's entire AFFC arc has entered the chat.
Why did we think she was smarter when we met her? She really is the Britta Perry of Westeros, and not just because both are really hot blondes.
I think it's more that her storyline has her gain more and more power which allows her to put her stupidity on display in increasingly more consequential situations, than it is her getting dumber as the books go on
IDK. She showed knowledge of history regarding suspicious paternity.
>
"To see what?" he said. "There can be no danger of a consummation. Tommen is much too young."
>"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?"
>Her brother looked lost. "Who was Ossifer Plumm? Was he Lord Philip's father, or . . . who?" Cersei III, Feast
Granted she has a Ph.d in the field of questionable paternity. Still, this showed pretty good application of history as well as a careful plan to keep her brother busy while she beds Kettleblack.
I'll have to look out for more of these little historical fact drops from Cersei cause I think it would actually add a really interesting layer to her character if it turned out she was a history nerd the way Tyrion is a "science" nerd (dragons, military engineering, the season changes are the three subjects he reads on in AGOT's first few chapters).
If there isnt any more to find in the first 5 books I think it'd be a neat thing for George to throw into TWOW. I've been thinking a while it'd be nice to get a little more humanity out of Cersei.
> I've been thinking a while it'd be nice to get a little more humanity out of Cersei.
I think so too, but from book 2 onwards GRRM has been inclined on doing the opposite, for some reason.
Given Jaime was dyslexic, it makes sense that she would be more versed than him in the bookish parts of courtly childrearing, like learning the history of the kingdom and the royalty. I'd be more surprised if the eldest daughter of the Lannister family didn't know about the shit Aegon the Unworthy got up to. It seems like the exact kind of historical gossip that a young scheming lady of the court would be drawn to.
TBF, unlike many responses here, I don't think Cersei is supposed to be represented as an *idiot* (that would be Victarion). Instead, she's the ultimate representation of personal biases and over-inflated senses of self-worth can lead to catastrophic decision-making. These are characters who could probably have seen the errors in their logic if they were watching someone *else* make the same decision, but then get trapped in that "I'm the *exception"* and Main-Character Syndrome (ironicically) logic.
In-story, we see Jon Snow (an otherwise intelligent character) continually push the limits of what he can and should do as leader of the Night's Watch. Until he abruptly pushes it way too far. We see Tyrion (an otherwise intelligent character) do the same in ACOK and ASOS until it bites him in the butt.
In the real world, we saw a similar incident with Eliot Spitzer about 15 years ago. The guy was the NY Governor and was a rising star until he got caught in a prostitution scandal due to suspicious banking activity. Activity that he should have damn well known about since he had busted a number of people for the same causes when he was AG. But just like Cersei and several other ASOIAF characters, he got locked into that "I'm special" bias.
Right, Jaime thinks to himself,
>She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience. (AFFC Jaime II)
When Cersei finally becomes a POV character, she is also spiraling after losing her son and her father, and she is especially paranoid about Tyrion because of Maggie's prophecy.
Because littlefinger and Varys helped her since it helped their plots and because plot armor let her ridiculous assisnate by alcohol work. Otherwise she was super dead quite frankly even with littlefinger the alcohol kill was all that stood between her and death.
I am interested to see how the show explains Aemond abandoning Cole. There has to be some hidden aspect to the story. I think Alys Rivers is involved in some capacity.
He also doesn't have internet to look things up, the incentive to learn about Essos since most of his raids won't be there. Victarion needs to know about every port in Westeros, the navies, his own kinsmen and their naval prowess, when and how a raid should go, how many raids they need to survive the winter etc...
He needs to know about the folks who'll attack them if they raid too much, how long it would take, how they'd go about it etc...
Knowing about Essosi ports and waters would be great for him, and he could be blamed for his ignorance about them, but not knowing about a desert is quite literally his right unless it's the seat of power of some overlord who might raise an army if the Ironborn gets too salty with his ships.
Again, that would not be stupid, but ignorant.
Stupidity would be something like bringing a horde of Dothraki who only know how to kill, r\*pe and steal into the land you want to rule.
That one is understandable. He is from a sea faring culture and hears the word sea and thinks it is water. Victarion is a dumb fuck in many other ways than that.
People are so funny always trying to make him sound anything less than dumb for this. Dude is a noble AND a sailor. I'm not gonna blame a rando on the street for not knowing that Antarctica is a desert made of ice and not sand, but it does seem plausible that a pilot with access to education would know something like that.
Also if we're making excuses for Victarion, Essos is so much larger and frankly more multicultural than Westeros, I'm guessing that to the guy who said that Victarion probably sounds the equivalent of the stereotypical American who doesn't know basic geography. If I thought I was going to die anyways I would've mocked him for it too.
Queen regent Cersei making a deal with the High Sparrow, even after his followers subverted the selection process. And agreeing to let them bear arms. And worst, she's pleased with the deal. What can go wrong?
Cersei after she empowers the religious fundamentalists to arrest the Queen for alleged sexual deviance and then they arrest the Queen for alleged sexual deviance: 🤯
How Jon handled the pink letter and also him sending away all his friends was really dumb in my opinion. I mean I know the saying of keep your enemies closer is important but the first part of that is keep your friends close
What of Val, Tormund, Satin, Lethers, Wun Wun and all the other Nights Watch men, who do bot support Bowen Marsh? As long as WoW does not reveal that the majority of the NW was behind Bowen, Jon still has the support of the Watch, and if he did not, than Pyp, Sam etc would not have been of much help, either way.
I’m talking friends-friends. Also you’ve actually named part of the problem. He kept his wildling friends around which contributed to the dislike that Bowen Marsh and others had. Having loyal nights watch friends close would’ve gone a long way in my opinion
But how are Pyp and Grenn helpful? They are his friends but still only 17/18 years old themselves and will not be able to help Jon, since they have neither the education nor the experience to even this lack.
It’s not just Pyp and Grenn. He sent them, Toad, Halder, Sam, Edd, Maester Aemon, Dywen, Giant, the guy Edd is 2nd in command to (forget his name but respect because he pulls a spearwife)
Having those loyal people even just around could do wonders for morale and loyalty. If you’re a nightswatch member and look around and only see wildlings you hate and a bunch of nights watch who hate Jon or are eh on the status quo but not staunch Jon supporters like the ones he sent away, you’re more likely to pull what they pulled
Yeah I think Jon was trying to be hard but losing all of his most loyal supporters was a mistake. He knows the watch is capable of treason and he sent his most loyal fighters away. He was right to want to detach some from them but wrong in how he went about it because it left him without as many good watch men around. Edd if nothing else would of had his ear to the ground more and could of picked up on the rising mutiny
Well, reading out the part of the letter where it's outright stated that Mance was still alive after "Jon faked his death" (not really what happened) was beyond stupid. How did he expect the NW to react about that part?
Staying on Fire and Blood, Aenys was zero IQ for the entirety of the Faith Uprising. He needed to fly on Quicksilver and bring Dreamfyre, rescue his children from the Westerlands, and swoop down on OldTown and make some demands.
Rhaenyra declaring Addam and Nettles to be untrustworthy after the betrayal at Tumbleton was so stupid that I’m sure it’s not what actually happened. I think the Mooton maester gave a forged letter to Daemon, after the castle already decided to switch sides. There’s no way Rhaenyra was so foolish to think “damn, we just lost two of our dragonriders and their very large dragons. We’d better get rid of two more of them.”
I also think Aenys was stupid to marry his daughter to his son, despite knowing how the faith views it, and then when once they got upset, he didn’t annual the marriage.
The thing that doesn't make sense is Rhaenyra trusted Mysaria above anyone else. She asks her for her opinion, and until then hadn't thought to move against Addam and Nettles. Like why?
And then for more reasons unknown Mysaria reaffirmed her fear? Mysaria and Larys whatever their game was never made much sense. It seems GRRM just wrote them to be chaotic for no good reason. I feel like HOTD had the right idea to at least try to give Mysaria an ideology, and has started to build up at least some sense of trust between her and Rhaenyra which is quite important.
I like your theory but I love the little story of how the Mooton maester sticks up for Daemon and Nettles and Lord Mooton is all like “We go down together.” Honestly one of the best episodes of the entirety of Fire & Blood and I would hate for it to not be true.
Totally agree with you, Rhaenyra by that point has lost so many children and is out of marbles. Alone and fed paranoid conspiracies by the grey worm, soaking up misery and tragedy by the dragonload. No wonder once two bastards betray her, she HAS to get ahead of it before she loses another loved one.
I think it's gotta be Quentyn Martell trying to steal a dragon when he knew it was Dany's and his main goal in Meereen was to secure an alliance with Dany.
Renly declaring himself king. Dumbass should have married Margaery and declared for Stannis, who has one daughter and isn't the most loved man at all. Stannis becomes king, Renly is his heir, Renly can be the face of the good one day king while Stannis does all the horrible ruling shit. The two of them would have crushed the Lannisters easily.
I think its fair to assume that Renly has not-insignificant sway with Mace and his children through Loras. Even without the guaranteed crown he’s a lucrative match as potential heir to the throne (given Shireen’s condition) and lord of Storm’s End. On top of that, given the timeline its very possible the Lannisters would have not even made serious contact with the Tyrells by the time this would be going on.
I dunno about that. A united Baratheon front might sway the Tyrells, edpecially wiith the Renly/marge marriage offer. Remember thst Loras is deeply, strongly in love with Renly, too.
In this scenario, Renly offers to make Margaery queen, one day, hopefully, if Stannis sires no sons and doesn't decide to make his daughter queen.
Lannisters offer to make Margaery queen today.
It would 99% mean they lose Loras tho and ally with a likely losing side.
And remember at this point in time Joffrey is still bettothed to Sansa. So no "now queen" offer realistically.
Partly that started because stannis and renly were opposing each other, making them seem a part of "flowery southron politics" - if the Baratheon brothers are a united front, i highly doubt the Northern Lords aren't loyal to them, as The Ned was supporting Stannis for king.
Disagree. Tyrell’s ally with Renly in the first place because Renly has strong connections with the Tyrell’s and could have just as easily brokered a marriage between a Tyrell and Shireen. Tyrells still get to enter the royal family.
The Tyrells definitely sided with Renly because they'd be putting a Tyrell on the throne, but it's not clear that they would side with the Lannisters. Before their emergence at Blackwater, the war was going very poorly for the Lannisters. Robb was handing them defeat after defeat in the Riverlands and if Renly and Stannis were aligned with the combined strength of the Stormland houses they would have successfully besieged and sacked King's Landing before Tywin's reinforcements could arrive. The 11th hour alliance would be riskier for the Tyrells and they would have been otherwise uninvolved in the war so they may not have wanted to choose a side right away, knowing that there was an alternative way into the graces of the ruling family through the Loras-Renly relationship.
Lannisters apparently never came up with the marriage idea until deep in the war. I don’t think there’s any way to know if the Tyrell’s would have flipped that easy with a living renly and if it meant facing a unified stannis storm land army and the north river land army.
I'd argue Stannis was the stupid one
He should've declared for Renly, helped him ascend the throne and only THEN kill him and rule as his heir (by Renly's promise)
Everything Balon and Cersei did.
Catelyn arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime.
Ned going to Cersei.
Stannis appointing the completely incompetent Imry Florent as Admiral.
Theon trying to hold Winterfell.
The Red Wedding
Joffrey executing Ned.
Vargo Hoat maiming Jaime.
Stannis giving command to Imry just doesn’t make any sense even taking into account his character. He has three perfectly able naval lords, Celtigar, Bar Emmon, and FUCKING VELARYON (THEIR WHOLE PERSONALITY TRAIT IS BEING GOOD AT SEA) that stayed loyal enough to him to follow him on his apparently suicidal mission to Storm’s End, why not reward them? He didn’t have to pull off any shadow baby shenanigans for this guys, they literally (even if somewhat begrudgingly) declare for him even when it seemed his cause had no chance of success.
We have no idea of the prowess of Monford Velaryon at sea, and the power of the Velaryons was on decline ever since the death of Alyn Oakenfist.
Though they never again reached the peak of their power under Corlys after the dance, after the power of the Velaryons reached an all time low Alyn started his great voyages, so I assume he brought it back to at least what it was before the collapse of the Rogare bank which lost the Velaryons half their fortunes.
We have no accounts of any Velaryon power AT ALL after the first voyage of Alyn, apart from the Pride Of Driftmark of Monford Velaryon which got rekt at the Blackwater, literally one ship
Im only saying that a loyal house that is bound to have at least some experience at sea just out of practical necessity would be better suited to the role than a knight without any warfare knowledge period
I was not disagreeing in any way, I was just questioning the possibility of Monford Velaryon being an "exceptional" sailor
The right choice would've been Davos imo
Davos would have been the better choice but there is very good chance his captains ignore him when the time comes which is why I propose the sea faring houses
Catelyn releasing Jaime was an EXTREMELY bad move, but she did it as a crazy last resort desperation move to get her daughters back.
I can at least see the logic behind what she did
Right like she doesn't even defend herself that much and largely knows it was a MASSIVE gamble. Considering that it could be a big mistake but feeling pushed to that point is not the smartest but certainly not as zero IQ as many other examples people have listed.
it was the dumbest emotional decision ever. "let's take the most infamous man, whose father is our mortal enemy and will pay anything, and set him out on foot with ONE FUCKING GUARD to walk an entire continent and HOPE when they get to his queen, the queen doesn't immediately kill the guard and take back her brother."
Balon's decision to attack the North was smarter than Cat with Tyrion and Jaime. At least Balon could say he fought the Crowns enemies and expect some face-saving compromise in the end (eg special titles like Dorne).
She didn't do this because Robb's army would never let it happen. We even see other Lannister captives murdered by the Karstarks. Cat explicitly knew her daughters weren't worthy trade chips and Robb would never do it, or more specifically Robbs men would never allow him to do it
The one thing that really bugs me (and I think is an oversight on GRRM's part) is that Catelyn does it because she's trusting in Tyrion, not Jaime (or at least that's what Jaime thinks). But Tyrion has already proved himself untrustworthy when he made a diplomatic deal and then used it as a cover to try to free Jaime.
Catelyn threw logic out the window.
There’s a TEENY TINY ITY BITY MINUSCULE chance that she might get Arya and Sansa back.
Catelyn: I’ll take those odds.
To hell with logic. To hell with reason. To hell with any proof of Tyrion being trustworthy or untrustworthy.
This is pure desperation. Desperation doesn’t do logic. Desperation doesn’t go reason.
It was basically a hail mary (hail the Mother?)
Does the realm know that BloodRaven is a warg at this point?
Even in the first one, there seems to be some sort of intelligence failure in the Blackfyre camp.
>How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere. (TMK)
someone told grrm what gay situationships are like and he had to take a narrative detour to let the rest of the world know through daemon b ii/alyn cockshaw
They are building him up as one of the most despicable men in the series. And it doesn't cost all that much to shoot his death.
They won't change his death.
Well he's not the kingmaker in the show, so at the least the dialogue will be slightly different, but otherwise I agree.
And with how good a job the actor and writers are doing of making him a cunt, it's gonna be satisfying as fuck.
That's kind of what I mean, he expected to be able to go out a hero, and expected his foes to uphold behavior he himself wouldn't. It's GREAT and I love it, but it was in my mind, full head up his own ass behavior.
I love Aemond, even before HOTD, but the dude was just a massive moron. There’s nothing else to say about him.
I know it worked out, but Theon sending out Reek (Ramsay), this nobody, who claims he can get hundreds of men for him, is just such a bizarre decision. Like why? Why lose one of the few men you have, he was deserting. Sure, Reek was telling the truth, but, uh, did not work for Theon regardless.
Theon was going full schizo at that point. He mistrusts the people at Winterfell as more of his Ironborn keep getting killed. He even mistrusts Reek, but still has him kill Gelmarr, Aggar, and Gynir for knowing the truth of the miller's sons. He sends Asha away after she proposes to escort him back to Deepwood Motte and save his life, immediately regretting afterwards.
Just like everything he does in ACOK, sending Reek away wasn't a rational decision. Theon's trying to look like a cool Ironborn badass, while grappling with his massive crisis of identity and masculinity.
My favourite dumbass Theon moment is when Asha arrives from Deepwood Motte to escort him back and save his life - but then he sends her away and immediately regrets afterwards. Man's struggling with his perception of masculinity so much that death is preferable to being laughed at.
Aegon IV trying to make dragon tanks to conquer Dorne. Everyone knew that the Boneway pass was too steep for even normal carts. That was one of the biggest problems in the previous invasions.
Cat and Ned were also basing the fundamental pillar of their knowledge on a lie. Lysa (and LIttlefinger)'s letter saying 'someone' murdered Jon Arryn informed much of Ned and Cat's moves. Their decisions were manipulated
Yeah, when Catelyn doesn't know the truth about how Lysa was in love with Littlefinger, she raped him, he thought it was Catelyn later causing the duel, she raped him again when he was horribly injured, and Hoster had their baby aborted....
You can kind of understand why "My sister is lying to me and trying to manipulate me in a way that can cause our deaths" wasn't anywhere near being on her radar.
Ned continued to distrust Littlefinger after Catelyn left King's Landing.
>Promise or no promise, he could not find it in him to trust Lord Petyr Baelish, who struck him as too clever by half. (AGOT Eddard V)
>Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. (AGOT Eddard XII)
I reread the series recently and in Feast during Cersei 1 or 2 Kevan (probably on my top 3 fav secondary character list) yaps about having 500 houndred men in his disposal or whatever in order to threaten Cersei... and then proceeds to tell her he knows about the incest....
Bro your beloved brother just died i get it but don't vent so much, any skeleton army of some riverlord who wants to ingratiate himself with the crown can kick your ass.
If I recall correctly it was Cersei who started being hostile by belittling Kevan and basically saying he was never more than Tywin's lapdog. She tries to boss Kevan around and (in her thoughts) accuses him of treason when he says something she disagrees with.
I don't think Kevan was really threatening her, he was just pushing back against her saying he's just a household knight. I agree the way he says it may not have been the smartest, but he's pretty competent in general. He just lost his cool trying to deal with Cersei.
>Aemond Targaryen: Inexplicably abandoning Ser Criston Cole + Royal Host to go burn some castles + settlements in the Riverlands with his dragon, Vhagar, that were loyal to Rhaenyra (note: fairly certain it is not impossible that he attacked green sympathisers as well) following the fall of KL. This lead to the destruction of the Royal Host and the death of Ser Criston at the Butcher's Ball.
I will argue that's a 0 IQ moment by George who basically wrote an ineffective chevauchée by a guy with a fucking nuke in the riverlands while in the main series a big bloke with his lads does a effective one oad stuff.
Sansa siding with the queen and Jeffrey and accidentally getting her wolf killed. & when she doesn’t learn the lesson and keeps on sucking up to Cersie
jaime attempting to kill robb at the whispering wood. like, my dude, you ain't barristan "turn the tide of the battle because of my big cock" selmy.
dumbass should have ordered for an orderly retreat to evade capture by robb similar to what robert did when randyll tarly catched his ass.
My zero IQ character would be Sansa, although her arc is progressing to an extent where she’d be a massive player, I believe. But tell her a secret, she’d give it to the Queen, Dontos, Ned, Cat, Littlefinger, and Moon Biy for all I know. The worst moment? Telling Dontos about the marriage with the Reach doesn’t sting as much as it I thought it would courtesy of her being safeguarded by LF in a familiar region, but telling the Queen about her father planning an escapade is vehemently disastrous and outright cretinously bovine
aerion drinking wildfire, vargo maiming jaime, everything that both sides did after rhaenyra took KL during the dance (seriously, theyd all lost the plot), sansa telling dontos about her potential betrothal to willas, robb marrying jeyne, everything ned did in KL, jon sending pretty much all of his friends away as soon as he becomes LC, tywin holding out hope that jaime would succeed him and not taking tyrion seriously
I disagree. It was a political gamble which was completely justified in the moment and only looks stupid in the hindsight - because we know Lysa Arryn is a paranoid trainwreck.
Catelyn only captured Tyrion because she was convinced of Tyrion's guilt and thought Lysa and The Knights of the Vale would side with Starks in the case of war. That's a reasonable assumption to make considering it was Lysa who told her about Jon Arryn's death, promptly left King's Landing and surrounded herself with an army 30.000 strong.
As Catelyn left King's Landing, Ned was still Robert's Hand, gathering evidence of Jon Arryn's death. That's a very strong bargaining chip. Of course - he ends up resigning because of the plotted assassination of Daenerys.
If there's a 0 IQ moment from both Catelyn and Ned, it's trusting Littlefinger.
But hey - the plot needs to happen.
Viserys pulling out his sword and threatening to cut out Danerys’s baby and leave it for Drogo right in front of him. Braindead shit right there. Literally absolutely guaranteed himself a horrible death, which was blatantly obvious to every single person in the room except him. He did this to.. convince Drogo to invade Westeros for him? Wtf was this dude thinking?
He was drunk and also an entitled Targaryen prince, bad combo.
What being dragonless does to a mtf..
“Bold move! Let’s see how this plays out…”
The gods flipped their coin
Literally everything Balon Greyjoy does.
Robb: “Rave and reap the Westerlands with the help of the North and Riverlands, and we’ll support your independence!” Balon: “LMAO, get rekt!”
To be fair this was also a diplomatic failing by Robb. Balon seemed somewhat amicable until he red the part of Robb's letter where Robb said "well give you your crown". Theon tried to talk through it as it was just bad wording. But seriously if you're messaging a man vain enough to crown himself and likely to do it again and you need him to help you how are you going to say you will 'give' him a crown by him attacking someone?
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The North and Riverlands have access to the Iron Islands without needing to cross the Riverlands. While he currently does not have a naval force, Robb can still offer the support of his army. After all, if Balon were to help, the Westermen would have to fight on two fronts.
Moreover, Balon's dismissal of the offer by focusing on Casterly Rock as the probable invasion target doesn't speak well of his strategic insights: No prudent man would be thinking of outright taking the Rock by storm, so it is bewildering that Balon just assumes that this is Robb's target. Any man who can actually read the political map would know that Robb just needs the Lannisters to overextend themselves by fighting too many fronts at the same time in order to bring them to their knees. Essentially, Balon just has to reave the Westerlands coastline to provide value (and thereby increase his power) to the proposed partnership, which is a fairly low-risk military endeavor for his part. The Westerlands is a large place, and not everything is easily reinforcable from the Rock. Balon could probably take (and hold) Fair Isle very easily - like his ancestor Dagon before him - and the coastline is dotted with resource-rich holdings. Hell, I think he could conceivably sack Lannisport, what with the Lannister fleet not having been rebuilt (?) and the cream of their forces being leagues away. All that gold can in turn be exchanged for arms, ship upgrades, and political capital among Balon's bannermen. The fact that one would even need to explain that a cash infusion could be useful, speaks to how far gone Balon is with his misplaced hatred of the Starks.
Yeah, Theon Greyjoy isn’t right a lot in ACOK, but he was bang on about how an ironborn invasion of the West would have gone. His hilarious Scrooge McDuck-esque designs on Casterly Rock itself aside, Theon’s assessment is straight up correct; other than being on hand to help besiege the Rock by land, Robb wouldn’t even really need to send more than a token force. Tywin’s vassals would be cooked with noted dullard, Stafford Lannister, in charge of his reserve force.
Objectively the worst king. Only redeeming trait is wanting to give the throne to Asha who isn’t stupid
Littlefinger challenging brandon to a duel lmao
Shame we never saw his scar
Bro was boutta lose the love of his life. Looking back, Cat was the only thing he loved in the wide world. Can't exactly fault him for that.
While I agree with the sentiment, it doesnt change the stupidity of challenging Brandon to a duel unless he was explicitly and intentionally committing suicide. Maybe he was, now that I think of it. Damn, did Catelyn get herself, Ned, Robb, and the entire Winterfell household killed by begging Brandon not to kill Littlefinger?
He had the romantic and childish idea that if you love someone truly you'll obviously win.
And thus we return to the original point raised: stupid as fuck.
Littlefinger donned his fedora hard that day
I think he probably thought either outcome was preferable to just letting Cat marry Brandon. If he won, he'd get to be with her and if he lost, he'd be better off dead anyway if he couldn't have her.
LF had an obsession with Catelyn, he never really loved her. He built up a fantasy in his head that had zero regard for how Catelyn actually felt or anything she ever said him. If anyone wants to bring up how he thought he had sex with Catelyn instead of Lysa, I do not think this negates my point. He willfully deluded himself into believing Catelyn would be the one the do that.
He was also extremely drunk and it comes off as Lysa just kind of... raping him. I can't blame him there for misremembering it as Catelyn instead of her pretty similar-looking little sister.
It’s definitely Lysa’s fault and I do think it was rape but I absolutely disagree with the idea that him mistaking her for Catelyn was anything but a willful delusion. If you look at what we know about their upbringing, it’s clear that Catelyn was always proper and never did anything to give Littlefinger the idea she saw him as anything but a friend, while Lysa had a lifelong obsession with him, would kiss him etc. Lysa was also closer in age (3-4 years isn’t much for adults, but not too many 16-17 year old girls are into 13-14 year old boys, which is the best case scenario here as LF wasn’t yet 15 when he fought Brandon). He believed it was Cat because he wanted to believe it was Cat and that his fantasy had come true. It should have been very obvious that Lysa was much more likely. It’s also apparent he never tried to talk about this with Cat afterwards (since she has no idea what Tyrion is talking about when he tells that LF claims to have taken her virginity), before he went ahead and challenged her betrothed on the assumption that she wanted to be with him instead. Makes me wonder if deep down he knew it wasn’t Cat and didn’t want the illusion to be totally shattered. Also, it’s kind of odd Lysa apparently didn’t say anything to him about it after that night (and if she did, that’s one more point in the column of “willful delusion”).
I think you are being a little too hard on him here. Albeit we know it's Littlefinger. When he grew up it's clear that Littlefinger included Lysa in his kissing games, as he tried to with Catelyn. Is that his love was clearly Catelyn it's not clear how affectionate Littlefinger was for Lysa at the time. What we know of when he was raped is that he was at a feast where he danced 6 times with Catelyn, and then tried to kiss her but she rejected him. Wounded by this rejection he got even drunker and passed out at the table of the feast. Blackfish carried the passed-out Littlefinger to his bed to sleep in peace. Then the next thing we know is that Lysa "sneaked in" right after him to "give" him his maidenhood. We also know that he called her Cat during the exchange. Now I get it's Littlefinger and his version of love is later manifested into something terrible. But I just think it's unfair to say he's "seeing what he wants to see". Imagine you confess to your crush while drunk and get rejected and get way drunk. Then you pass out blacked out from the booze and you are in this drunk half-awake half-sleep haze where a figure with long red hair, pale skin, and blue eyes is undressing you are trying to have sex with you. It's your crush! You have sex with her while calling out your crush's name. You wake up in the morning and she's gone... But in reality, is was your crush's little sister who looked just like her.
I’m not saying it’s not psychologically understandable how LF came to believe that, but it’s still true that it was a willful delusion. He knew Cat well enough to know that would have been wildly out of character for her if not blinded by delusion. Also, while I obviously wouldn’t judge teenaged LF as harshly as 30 year old LF, i don’t think his feelings for Catelyn were ever totally innocent. Even then, it’s apparent how Catelyn’s beauty and status in his mind as a prize to be won, symbolizing what he feels he’s denied by his relatively low birth (by noble standards), matter far more than who Cat was a person. If he couldn’t even have a conversation with her to confirm how she felt about him and about marrying Brandon he had absolutely no business challenging anyone to a duel over it.
A willful decision is a very bit hand much. I don't know how much of an active decision if you confess to your red-hair blue eyed white crush, and then get drunk and black out. Then her little sister who is red-haired blue-eyed and white sneaks into your room when your black out drunk and basically has sex with you when your half conscious. It is kind of ridiculous to try to pin this on him that bad. Also I really don't know how much discourse surrounding characters 'love' where people love to go on about. No... he didn't love her, he love the idea of her! It was false love! His emotions were rooted in that she was the most beautiful object! Or something. People love to look at negative and immoral characters and start going on these absurd break downs about emotions and love. It's all chemicals. You can break down the vast majority of 'love' or 'emotions' into these weird ways to make it seem 'fake' or not 'acceptable'. I don't think that discourse provides any value, and you almost never see it happen when a person likes the character that is being talked about. Also I don't think Catelyn and Lysa were really that much different in 'value' or a 'prize'. Catelyn was slightly older and was heiress for maybe a couple years before Littlefinger knew her presumably. But they were both beautiful and extremely noble women who stood to inherit nothing.
>It is kind of ridiculous to try to pin this on him that bad. I’m not talking about in the moment so much as the fact that while sober he never reflected on the fact that such an action would have been wildly out of character for Catelyn and contrary to how she behaved towards him for the rest of their lives while Lysa was clearly infatuated with him and much more likely. And even more specifically the fact that he never even tried to have a conversation with Cat about it before he went challenging Brandon to a duel on the assumption that she really wanted to marry him. >People love to look at negative and immoral characters and start going on these absurd break downs about emotions and love. It's all chemicals. I think this sort of lame attempt at scientific reductionism is really intellectually lazy, to be brutally honest. It is actually perfectly reasonable to want to have different terms to distinguish an unhealthy fixation based solely on one’s own desire of the other persons versus genuine love based on who the desired is as a person, concern for their well-being, respect for their feelings, etc. LF’s obsession with Cat is very clearly in the former category during the series, and I don’t think the evidence really points to it ever being in the latter category. And it’s not that I think bad people can’t love someone else. E.g. I think Tywin is a terrible person but it seems pretty clear he loved Joanna. But it’s not surprising in any way that bad people frequently develop unhealthy and self-centered feelings towards others. >Also I don't think Catelyn and Lysa were really that much different in 'value' or a 'prize' That he specifically developed feelings for Cat (who was still better looking than Lysa in youth, as well as older) doesn’t mean those feelings were real love or that he didn’t see her a prize. LF’s entire lifestory after leaving Riverrun is built around feeling like he was wronged by not being able to marry Catelyn and wanting to get back and the system and individuals/families who wronged him, and it very clearly is not based around any genuine concern for Catelyn.
Sure she did refuse Littlefinger's attempt to kiss her in public. But she still did from her description love him like a brother and seemingly have a very close relationship with him. With him being predominantly the only male she grew up with other than Edmure and playing romance games with him being the Juliet and her Romeo (the Westorosi equivalents I forget). The idea that the high born woman before she has to do her duty to be married off by her father wants to give her maidenhood to a man she knows & likes before she gets married off isn't that crazy or a story not heard before. Littlefinger and Catelyn are also both 14-15. Talking about sex is weird and hard. If Littlefinger approached her wondering why she hasn't acted any different and was like. You want to talk about what happend at the feast? They would be having two entirely different conversations and could easily lead to a misunderstanding. He could ask her a question she could give him a response that makes sense to her but tells him a different story. It's plausible. He could take her weird non-responses as her not wanting to talk about it and it was just a fling before she got married. >I think this sort of lame attempt at scientific reductionism is really intellectually lazy, to be brutally honest. It is actually perfectly reasonable to want to have different terms to distinguish an unhealthy fixation based solely on one’s own desire of the other persons versus genuine love based on who the desired is as a person, concern for their well-being, respect for their feelings, etc. LF’s obsession with Cat is very clearly in the former category during the series, and I don’t think the evidence really points to it ever being in the latter category. And it’s not that I think bad people can’t love someone else. E.g. I think Tywin is a terrible person but it seems pretty clear he loved Joanna. But it’s not surprising in any way that bad people frequently develop unhealthy and self-centered feelings towards others. The definition of love that first pops up, which seems to align with everyone I see is. "an intense feeling of deep [affection](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&sca_esv=a5295d27d6bcdf79&q=affection&si=ACC90nxMSPeZfdJJjQgDsdZJuFuJdHnAPX72py5RKvgkBKBidvnvUuqLokcL5DY-Xs1Tm45pmj_yZPS4AyG3d0DR_Py3kcfqL6X8xDBOu6FQOmOUV6bIsJE%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHlfeGx4eHAxXOlIkEHZGQCRkQyecJegQIQRAO)." Which whatever Littlefinger has for Catelyn, it definitely fits under those parameters. Does it manifest in unhealthy or bad ways? Sure. He fights a duel for her hand, and gets nearly killed for it and she gets married happily ever after. This duel and his heartbreak from 'losing' Catelyn to the powerful heir of the North Brandon Stark seems to be his origin story of why he wants to become so powerful and does in the main series, doing plenty of immoral things on the way. Your definitions of calling one "genuine love! he.. cares for her feelings and well-being! and etc!" So you think if we saw a POV of a Young Petyr when he was actually in love and talking to Catelyn and his chapter shows him caring about her health, respecting her opinions and feelings! That his love goes from "unhealthy fixation based solely on ones own desires" to "genuine love!"? Although personally I do not think Littlefinger is in love with Catelyn by AGoT. Nor do I really think his goals are to "destroy everyone who wronged him" I think his heart break served as a origin story for his desire & character, but not necessarily his motivaiton in AGoT. In his mind he had the love that he grew up with taken away from him because he was at the bottom of the ladder and Catelyn & Brandon were at the top, he was too lowly of a noble. So he goes into adulthood seeking and finding ways to climb to the very top of the ladder. Which I also think Littlefinger's betrayal of Eddard comes off as natural. His seemingly obsession with Catelyn only seems to overtake his desires with Sansa in the later books. .
Yeah, this is one of those things I think makes more sense if you're a modern reader whose only exposure to these martial arts is from media, like how people fantasize about getting into a fight after watching a martial arts film. But, even a brief exposure to actual fighting against skilled and/or much stronger opponents should rob one of that wishful thinking pretty quickly. Given that Petyr Baelish was nominally a lord in a martial society he should have received at least a *little* martial training, you'd think that he would realize that he would stand no chance against the much stronger and much more experienced Brandon Stark.
I think he might’ve known like lesson 1 material, but he was a ward away from home AND notoriously sickly and small. Seems pretty likely he either would decide not to train at all or they literally wouldn’t let him
Cersie denying the Iron Bank. Making Aurane Grand Admiral and giving him money to build a fleet of ships. Ostracizing the Tyrells. Pushing Jamie away. Filling the council with lickspittles. Rearming the Faith Militant. Basically Cersie's whole life has been full of zero IQ moments even though she thinks she's the smartest person in Westeros.
Could’ve just said Cersei tbh
🤣🤣🤣
I hate her so much but her chapters in AFFC are so entertaining especially on rereads. She’s such an idiot.
One of the best characters I’ve ever read because she’s a fucking idiot but all of her decisions make perfect sense from her stupid POV so they are fascinating to read
We were denied seeing this glorious flaming hot mess in the show.
Instead we got Cersi drinking wine by a window
Syrax deciding to land and fight the Shepherd's followers rather than just staying in the air and strafing then, or going back to Rhaenyra, or doing literally anything other than make the dumbest decision a dragon has ever made through all of ASOIAF
Shepherd plot armor
Quentyn
Now now, Quentyn represents less of a "zero IQ *moment*" and more of a "zero IQ *existence*"
twist that knife honey
I will stand by the belief that Quentyn could have tamed a dragon if there was only one
Well yes I think he might have. But there also wasn't only one and his planning failed to appropriately account for that risk especially.
Did he even know Valyrian????
Here's a quote from the Wiki of Ice and Fire (and the hilarious following sentence lol) >Quentyn speaks the [Volantene](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Volantis)[^(\[1\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd6.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-1) and [Ghiscari](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Ghis) tongues.[^(\[5\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd59.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-5)[^(\[11\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd68.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-11) While he can read and write [High Valyrian](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/High_Valyrian), he has had little practice in speaking it.[^(\[1\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd6.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-1) A [virgin](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Virgin),[^(\[11\])](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Quentyn_Martell#cite_note-Radwd68.7B.7B.7B3.7D.7D.7D.7B.7B.7B4.7D.7D.7D-11) Quentyn is uncomfortable around girls.
Unfortunately for him Viserion and Rhaegel didn’t give a shit about his literacy rate 😭😭 And that last line…. Daenerys took one look at him and said I’m good with my Tyroshi Stud thanks but no thanks Froggy Boy 😘
I thought quentyn lost his virginity to that yronwood girl
>When first he'd come to Yronwood, he had been smitten with Ynys, the eldest of Lord Yronwood's daughters. Though he never said a word about his feelings, he nursed his dreams for years … until the day she was dispatched to wed Ser Ryon Allyrion, the heir to Godsgrace. The last time he had seen her, she'd had one boy at her breast and another clinging to her skirts. >After Ynys had come the Drinkwater twins, a pair of tawny young maidens who loved hawking, hunting, climbing rocks, and making Quentyn blush. One of them had given him his first kiss, though he never knew which one. As daughters of a landed knight, the twins were too lowborn to marry, but Cletus did not think that was any reason to stop kissing them. "After you're wed you can take one of them for a paramour. Or both, why not?" But Quentyn thought of several reasons why not, so he had done his best to avoid the twins thereafter, and there had been no second kiss. >More recently, the youngest of Lord Yronwood's daughters had taken to following him about the castle. Gwyneth was but twelve, a small, scrawny girl whose dark eyes and brown hair set her apart in that house of blue-eyed blondes. She was clever, though, as quick with words as with her hands, and fond of telling Quentyn that he had to wait for her to flower, so she could marry him. (ADWD The Merchant's Man)
Thanks. Sounds like I’m due for a reread (just in time for winds release 🤭)
I highly doubt Valyrian is actually necessary to tame a dragon, either that or the dragon seeds got some pretty amazing crash course
In the books, Daenerys trained the dragons to respond to dracarys just like anyone might train a dog to respond to sit. It's never said her ancestors also did this. It's not unreasonable that they might have as depicted in HoTD - just as everyone trains their dog in sit. But until HOTD it was technically a Dany-only thing. So no not necessary. It's a trained behaviour regardless. Anyone can learn the basic commands.
Thats the only word we have seen Daenerys use to it’s not unreasonable to think they can be retrained
That's not how it works. Daenerys personally taught the dragons to respond to Valyrian words like training a dog. But pretty sure she really only taught them dracarys. They don't naturally know Valyrian. HoTD because it's so recognisable included that as something they did in the past as well. But technically it was just Dany's idea. It's probable they landed on the same thinking independently though. Given that well they would all have spoken High Valyrian and would have thought to use certain words for certain commands. But it does make it seem a little less unique.
Counterpoint (and this might be a little to crackpot) but what if dragons do know Valyrian? Valyrian most likely made dragons via blood magic worm hybrids. What if dragons were bred to understand Valyrian? Or Valyrian came about because the dragons understood it? Daenerys wouldn’t know this as lots of dragon riding knowledge was lost in the Dance, so she really did come up with the idea herself, but she just wasn’t the first. But did the dragon seeds know Valyrian? It’s possible they were taught a crash course or had previously heard the commanding words. After all, Team Black wanted successful bonds. Maybe Quentyn could pronounce it decently. Nettles is the exception, but so was her method of claiming Sheepstealer.
But they don't need to be to learn Valyrian from training. It doesn't seem like they responded to Dany's command until she trained them.
Damn. I need to reread!!
Every high-born knows some Valyrian.
I think that’s a move less driven by intelligence and more by insecurity.
Cersei's entire AFFC arc has entered the chat. Why did we think she was smarter when we met her? She really is the Britta Perry of Westeros, and not just because both are really hot blondes.
to be fair to britta, she got dumber after the show started
Unfortunately for Britta being a cool girl isn't nearly so funny as being a dumbass.
So did Cercei. At least in our view
I think it's more that her storyline has her gain more and more power which allows her to put her stupidity on display in increasingly more consequential situations, than it is her getting dumber as the books go on
these britta stays are gnarly
IDK. She showed knowledge of history regarding suspicious paternity. > "To see what?" he said. "There can be no danger of a consummation. Tommen is much too young." >"And Ossifer Plumm was much too dead, but that did not stop him fathering a child, did it?" >Her brother looked lost. "Who was Ossifer Plumm? Was he Lord Philip's father, or . . . who?" Cersei III, Feast Granted she has a Ph.d in the field of questionable paternity. Still, this showed pretty good application of history as well as a careful plan to keep her brother busy while she beds Kettleblack.
I'll have to look out for more of these little historical fact drops from Cersei cause I think it would actually add a really interesting layer to her character if it turned out she was a history nerd the way Tyrion is a "science" nerd (dragons, military engineering, the season changes are the three subjects he reads on in AGOT's first few chapters). If there isnt any more to find in the first 5 books I think it'd be a neat thing for George to throw into TWOW. I've been thinking a while it'd be nice to get a little more humanity out of Cersei.
> I've been thinking a while it'd be nice to get a little more humanity out of Cersei. I think so too, but from book 2 onwards GRRM has been inclined on doing the opposite, for some reason.
I think we get tons of humanity from Cersei. It's just the worst of human nature.
Given Jaime was dyslexic, it makes sense that she would be more versed than him in the bookish parts of courtly childrearing, like learning the history of the kingdom and the royalty. I'd be more surprised if the eldest daughter of the Lannister family didn't know about the shit Aegon the Unworthy got up to. It seems like the exact kind of historical gossip that a young scheming lady of the court would be drawn to.
I think the dyslexia was a show only thing.
TBF, unlike many responses here, I don't think Cersei is supposed to be represented as an *idiot* (that would be Victarion). Instead, she's the ultimate representation of personal biases and over-inflated senses of self-worth can lead to catastrophic decision-making. These are characters who could probably have seen the errors in their logic if they were watching someone *else* make the same decision, but then get trapped in that "I'm the *exception"* and Main-Character Syndrome (ironicically) logic. In-story, we see Jon Snow (an otherwise intelligent character) continually push the limits of what he can and should do as leader of the Night's Watch. Until he abruptly pushes it way too far. We see Tyrion (an otherwise intelligent character) do the same in ACOK and ASOS until it bites him in the butt. In the real world, we saw a similar incident with Eliot Spitzer about 15 years ago. The guy was the NY Governor and was a rising star until he got caught in a prostitution scandal due to suspicious banking activity. Activity that he should have damn well known about since he had busted a number of people for the same causes when he was AG. But just like Cersei and several other ASOIAF characters, he got locked into that "I'm special" bias.
Right, Jaime thinks to himself, >She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience. (AFFC Jaime II) When Cersei finally becomes a POV character, she is also spiraling after losing her son and her father, and she is especially paranoid about Tyrion because of Maggie's prophecy.
Jaime, at least, thinks of his sister: >She does not lack for wits, but she has no judgment, and no patience. (AFFC Jaime II)
Exactly thank you.
Because even Tyrion (at first) gives her some credit
oh britta's in this?
Because littlefinger and Varys helped her since it helped their plots and because plot armor let her ridiculous assisnate by alcohol work. Otherwise she was super dead quite frankly even with littlefinger the alcohol kill was all that stood between her and death.
I am interested to see how the show explains Aemond abandoning Cole. There has to be some hidden aspect to the story. I think Alys Rivers is involved in some capacity.
Same. It would be hilarious if Alys was boinking both of them and Aemond walks in on Ser Criston "debriefing" Alys...
Or he finds out his mother sleeping with cole
>“Where is this Dothraki sea? I will sail the Iron Fleet across it & find the queen wherever she may be.” Victarion Greyjoy
That's ignorant, not stupid. Kinda like some guy in Africa not knowing about Ohio.
I have to disagree, since the Dothraki sea covers a huge part of Essos. And Victarion is just some guy, he is the lord captain of the Iron Fleet.
He also doesn't have internet to look things up, the incentive to learn about Essos since most of his raids won't be there. Victarion needs to know about every port in Westeros, the navies, his own kinsmen and their naval prowess, when and how a raid should go, how many raids they need to survive the winter etc... He needs to know about the folks who'll attack them if they raid too much, how long it would take, how they'd go about it etc... Knowing about Essosi ports and waters would be great for him, and he could be blamed for his ignorance about them, but not knowing about a desert is quite literally his right unless it's the seat of power of some overlord who might raise an army if the Ironborn gets too salty with his ships. Again, that would not be stupid, but ignorant. Stupidity would be something like bringing a horde of Dothraki who only know how to kill, r\*pe and steal into the land you want to rule.
Or some guy in Ohio not knowing about Africa
I reckon that's much more common.
That one is understandable. He is from a sea faring culture and hears the word sea and thinks it is water. Victarion is a dumb fuck in many other ways than that.
Seriously. He’s a famous navigator and sailor how has he never looked at a map of the world?
People are so funny always trying to make him sound anything less than dumb for this. Dude is a noble AND a sailor. I'm not gonna blame a rando on the street for not knowing that Antarctica is a desert made of ice and not sand, but it does seem plausible that a pilot with access to education would know something like that. Also if we're making excuses for Victarion, Essos is so much larger and frankly more multicultural than Westeros, I'm guessing that to the guy who said that Victarion probably sounds the equivalent of the stereotypical American who doesn't know basic geography. If I thought I was going to die anyways I would've mocked him for it too.
Queen regent Cersei making a deal with the High Sparrow, even after his followers subverted the selection process. And agreeing to let them bear arms. And worst, she's pleased with the deal. What can go wrong?
Cersei after she empowers the religious fundamentalists to arrest the Queen for alleged sexual deviance and then they arrest the Queen for alleged sexual deviance: 🤯
Olenna Tyrell letting Mace get out of earshot.
How Jon handled the pink letter and also him sending away all his friends was really dumb in my opinion. I mean I know the saying of keep your enemies closer is important but the first part of that is keep your friends close
What of Val, Tormund, Satin, Lethers, Wun Wun and all the other Nights Watch men, who do bot support Bowen Marsh? As long as WoW does not reveal that the majority of the NW was behind Bowen, Jon still has the support of the Watch, and if he did not, than Pyp, Sam etc would not have been of much help, either way.
I’m talking friends-friends. Also you’ve actually named part of the problem. He kept his wildling friends around which contributed to the dislike that Bowen Marsh and others had. Having loyal nights watch friends close would’ve gone a long way in my opinion
But how are Pyp and Grenn helpful? They are his friends but still only 17/18 years old themselves and will not be able to help Jon, since they have neither the education nor the experience to even this lack.
It’s not just Pyp and Grenn. He sent them, Toad, Halder, Sam, Edd, Maester Aemon, Dywen, Giant, the guy Edd is 2nd in command to (forget his name but respect because he pulls a spearwife) Having those loyal people even just around could do wonders for morale and loyalty. If you’re a nightswatch member and look around and only see wildlings you hate and a bunch of nights watch who hate Jon or are eh on the status quo but not staunch Jon supporters like the ones he sent away, you’re more likely to pull what they pulled
They may have been able to tell Jon about any mutinous gossip creeping up before the stabbing.
Yeah I think Jon was trying to be hard but losing all of his most loyal supporters was a mistake. He knows the watch is capable of treason and he sent his most loyal fighters away. He was right to want to detach some from them but wrong in how he went about it because it left him without as many good watch men around. Edd if nothing else would of had his ear to the ground more and could of picked up on the rising mutiny
Well, reading out the part of the letter where it's outright stated that Mance was still alive after "Jon faked his death" (not really what happened) was beyond stupid. How did he expect the NW to react about that part?
Staying on Fire and Blood, Aenys was zero IQ for the entirety of the Faith Uprising. He needed to fly on Quicksilver and bring Dreamfyre, rescue his children from the Westerlands, and swoop down on OldTown and make some demands. Rhaenyra declaring Addam and Nettles to be untrustworthy after the betrayal at Tumbleton was so stupid that I’m sure it’s not what actually happened. I think the Mooton maester gave a forged letter to Daemon, after the castle already decided to switch sides. There’s no way Rhaenyra was so foolish to think “damn, we just lost two of our dragonriders and their very large dragons. We’d better get rid of two more of them.”
What is your explanation for Addam though? She literally imprisoned Corlys for warning Addam
I also think Aenys was stupid to marry his daughter to his son, despite knowing how the faith views it, and then when once they got upset, he didn’t annual the marriage.
The thing that doesn't make sense is Rhaenyra trusted Mysaria above anyone else. She asks her for her opinion, and until then hadn't thought to move against Addam and Nettles. Like why? And then for more reasons unknown Mysaria reaffirmed her fear? Mysaria and Larys whatever their game was never made much sense. It seems GRRM just wrote them to be chaotic for no good reason. I feel like HOTD had the right idea to at least try to give Mysaria an ideology, and has started to build up at least some sense of trust between her and Rhaenyra which is quite important.
I like your theory but I love the little story of how the Mooton maester sticks up for Daemon and Nettles and Lord Mooton is all like “We go down together.” Honestly one of the best episodes of the entirety of Fire & Blood and I would hate for it to not be true.
Totally agree with you, Rhaenyra by that point has lost so many children and is out of marbles. Alone and fed paranoid conspiracies by the grey worm, soaking up misery and tragedy by the dragonload. No wonder once two bastards betray her, she HAS to get ahead of it before she loses another loved one.
Not to mention refusing to let Rhaena fly Dreamfyre in the first place, because oh no Aegon mustn't be outshined by a girl!
I think it's gotta be Quentyn Martell trying to steal a dragon when he knew it was Dany's and his main goal in Meereen was to secure an alliance with Dany.
Producer: But why would he do that? Writer: So the movie can happen! Producer: That works!
Renly declaring himself king. Dumbass should have married Margaery and declared for Stannis, who has one daughter and isn't the most loved man at all. Stannis becomes king, Renly is his heir, Renly can be the face of the good one day king while Stannis does all the horrible ruling shit. The two of them would have crushed the Lannisters easily.
Not gonna happen. If Reply goes with Stannis the Tyrells go with Tywin.
I think its fair to assume that Renly has not-insignificant sway with Mace and his children through Loras. Even without the guaranteed crown he’s a lucrative match as potential heir to the throne (given Shireen’s condition) and lord of Storm’s End. On top of that, given the timeline its very possible the Lannisters would have not even made serious contact with the Tyrells by the time this would be going on.
I dunno about that. A united Baratheon front might sway the Tyrells, edpecially wiith the Renly/marge marriage offer. Remember thst Loras is deeply, strongly in love with Renly, too.
And with Stannis having no heirs Margaery would be queen.
No male heirs, but yea, exactly.
In this scenario, Renly offers to make Margaery queen, one day, hopefully, if Stannis sires no sons and doesn't decide to make his daughter queen. Lannisters offer to make Margaery queen today.
It would 99% mean they lose Loras tho and ally with a likely losing side. And remember at this point in time Joffrey is still bettothed to Sansa. So no "now queen" offer realistically.
Is Loras gonna betray his family for Renly? And how is Baratheon only faction losing to Lannister-Tyrell-Crownlands alliance?
> Is Loras gonna betray his family for Renly? Might actually do that. Baratheon are allied with Stark-Riverlands in this scenario with high likelyhood
Are they? Or does Robb get swept into "King in the Norf" brainrot anyway?
Partly that started because stannis and renly were opposing each other, making them seem a part of "flowery southron politics" - if the Baratheon brothers are a united front, i highly doubt the Northern Lords aren't loyal to them, as The Ned was supporting Stannis for king.
Disagree. Tyrell’s ally with Renly in the first place because Renly has strong connections with the Tyrell’s and could have just as easily brokered a marriage between a Tyrell and Shireen. Tyrells still get to enter the royal family.
The Tyrells definitely sided with Renly because they'd be putting a Tyrell on the throne, but it's not clear that they would side with the Lannisters. Before their emergence at Blackwater, the war was going very poorly for the Lannisters. Robb was handing them defeat after defeat in the Riverlands and if Renly and Stannis were aligned with the combined strength of the Stormland houses they would have successfully besieged and sacked King's Landing before Tywin's reinforcements could arrive. The 11th hour alliance would be riskier for the Tyrells and they would have been otherwise uninvolved in the war so they may not have wanted to choose a side right away, knowing that there was an alternative way into the graces of the ruling family through the Loras-Renly relationship.
Lannisters apparently never came up with the marriage idea until deep in the war. I don’t think there’s any way to know if the Tyrell’s would have flipped that easy with a living renly and if it meant facing a unified stannis storm land army and the north river land army.
I'd argue Stannis was the stupid one He should've declared for Renly, helped him ascend the throne and only THEN kill him and rule as his heir (by Renly's promise)
Everything Balon and Cersei did. Catelyn arresting Tyrion and releasing Jaime. Ned going to Cersei. Stannis appointing the completely incompetent Imry Florent as Admiral. Theon trying to hold Winterfell. The Red Wedding Joffrey executing Ned. Vargo Hoat maiming Jaime.
Stannis giving command to Imry just doesn’t make any sense even taking into account his character. He has three perfectly able naval lords, Celtigar, Bar Emmon, and FUCKING VELARYON (THEIR WHOLE PERSONALITY TRAIT IS BEING GOOD AT SEA) that stayed loyal enough to him to follow him on his apparently suicidal mission to Storm’s End, why not reward them? He didn’t have to pull off any shadow baby shenanigans for this guys, they literally (even if somewhat begrudgingly) declare for him even when it seemed his cause had no chance of success.
We have no idea of the prowess of Monford Velaryon at sea, and the power of the Velaryons was on decline ever since the death of Alyn Oakenfist. Though they never again reached the peak of their power under Corlys after the dance, after the power of the Velaryons reached an all time low Alyn started his great voyages, so I assume he brought it back to at least what it was before the collapse of the Rogare bank which lost the Velaryons half their fortunes. We have no accounts of any Velaryon power AT ALL after the first voyage of Alyn, apart from the Pride Of Driftmark of Monford Velaryon which got rekt at the Blackwater, literally one ship
Im only saying that a loyal house that is bound to have at least some experience at sea just out of practical necessity would be better suited to the role than a knight without any warfare knowledge period
I was not disagreeing in any way, I was just questioning the possibility of Monford Velaryon being an "exceptional" sailor The right choice would've been Davos imo
Davos would have been the better choice but there is very good chance his captains ignore him when the time comes which is why I propose the sea faring houses
Catelyn releasing Jaime was an EXTREMELY bad move, but she did it as a crazy last resort desperation move to get her daughters back. I can at least see the logic behind what she did
Right like she doesn't even defend herself that much and largely knows it was a MASSIVE gamble. Considering that it could be a big mistake but feeling pushed to that point is not the smartest but certainly not as zero IQ as many other examples people have listed.
it was the dumbest emotional decision ever. "let's take the most infamous man, whose father is our mortal enemy and will pay anything, and set him out on foot with ONE FUCKING GUARD to walk an entire continent and HOPE when they get to his queen, the queen doesn't immediately kill the guard and take back her brother."
Balon's decision to attack the North was smarter than Cat with Tyrion and Jaime. At least Balon could say he fought the Crowns enemies and expect some face-saving compromise in the end (eg special titles like Dorne).
Fighting against the Crown and in alliance with the North was Balon’s best bet for independence IMO.
She could have bargained Jaime for her daughters.
She didn't do this because Robb's army would never let it happen. We even see other Lannister captives murdered by the Karstarks. Cat explicitly knew her daughters weren't worthy trade chips and Robb would never do it, or more specifically Robbs men would never allow him to do it
I don't really get how the girls are so worthless when at that point, with the supposed deaths of Bran and Rickon, Sansa is technically Robb's heir.
Even if they were girls you can marry them off to secure good alliances. They should have at least had some value as good marriages.
The one thing that really bugs me (and I think is an oversight on GRRM's part) is that Catelyn does it because she's trusting in Tyrion, not Jaime (or at least that's what Jaime thinks). But Tyrion has already proved himself untrustworthy when he made a diplomatic deal and then used it as a cover to try to free Jaime.
Catelyn threw logic out the window. There’s a TEENY TINY ITY BITY MINUSCULE chance that she might get Arya and Sansa back. Catelyn: I’ll take those odds. To hell with logic. To hell with reason. To hell with any proof of Tyrion being trustworthy or untrustworthy. This is pure desperation. Desperation doesn’t do logic. Desperation doesn’t go reason. It was basically a hail mary (hail the Mother?)
Only reading F&B is an absolutely reckless way to get introduced to George’s universe lmao. Can’t believe you stuck around
Any time a Gewyjoy speaks
The Second Blackfyre Rebellion. Really, what the hell was that?
peake genius
Does the realm know that BloodRaven is a warg at this point? Even in the first one, there seems to be some sort of intelligence failure in the Blackfyre camp.
>How many eyes does Lord Bloodraven have? the riddle ran. A thousand eyes, and one. Some claimed the King's Hand was a student of the dark arts who could change his face, put on the likeness of a one-eyed dog, even turn into a mist. Packs of gaunt gray wolves hunted down his foes, men said, and carrion crows spied for him and whispered secrets in his ear. Most of the tales were only tales, Dunk did not doubt, but no one could doubt that Bloodraven had informers everywhere. (TMK)
I really don’t think Brynden’s magic was used very much in this incident, as much as it was he had actual spies.
someone told grrm what gay situationships are like and he had to take a narrative detour to let the rest of the world know through daemon b ii/alyn cockshaw
Criston Cole approaching a bunch of northerners with a death wish and being like 'SURELY GENTLEMAN WE CAN COME TO AN ACCORD'
It was worth a shot. The only other option would be to be wiped out traditionally in the battle
_Laughs_ “A shot…”
What else was he supposed to do? He was fucked regardless. He wanted to go out on his own terms but the Blacks outplayed him there too.
I really hope they keep his death scene the same, one of my favourite deaths in the book
They are building him up as one of the most despicable men in the series. And it doesn't cost all that much to shoot his death. They won't change his death.
Well he's not the kingmaker in the show, so at the least the dialogue will be slightly different, but otherwise I agree. And with how good a job the actor and writers are doing of making him a cunt, it's gonna be satisfying as fuck.
Pretty sure they already foreshadowed his death in S1 already.
That's kind of what I mean, he expected to be able to go out a hero, and expected his foes to uphold behavior he himself wouldn't. It's GREAT and I love it, but it was in my mind, full head up his own ass behavior.
I love Aemond, even before HOTD, but the dude was just a massive moron. There’s nothing else to say about him. I know it worked out, but Theon sending out Reek (Ramsay), this nobody, who claims he can get hundreds of men for him, is just such a bizarre decision. Like why? Why lose one of the few men you have, he was deserting. Sure, Reek was telling the truth, but, uh, did not work for Theon regardless.
Theon was going full schizo at that point. He mistrusts the people at Winterfell as more of his Ironborn keep getting killed. He even mistrusts Reek, but still has him kill Gelmarr, Aggar, and Gynir for knowing the truth of the miller's sons. He sends Asha away after she proposes to escort him back to Deepwood Motte and save his life, immediately regretting afterwards. Just like everything he does in ACOK, sending Reek away wasn't a rational decision. Theon's trying to look like a cool Ironborn badass, while grappling with his massive crisis of identity and masculinity.
I still can't decide whether Aemond is responsible for the destruction of the Lannister Host, especially since it happened a few miles from Harrenhal.
No one has mentioned Arriane Martells coup. She took an incredible gamble with that and it barely got off the ground.
Ned warning Cersei Theon killing two boys of miller and making himself more of an obvious Target because his own people might laugh hım if he didn't.
My favourite dumbass Theon moment is when Asha arrives from Deepwood Motte to escort him back and save his life - but then he sends her away and immediately regrets afterwards. Man's struggling with his perception of masculinity so much that death is preferable to being laughed at.
Quentyn Martell and his attempt to tame a dragon.
Hodor trying to make a point
Balman Byrch challenging Bronn to a duel. Expecting an honorless sellsword to fight fairly.
Aegon IV trying to make dragon tanks to conquer Dorne. Everyone knew that the Boneway pass was too steep for even normal carts. That was one of the biggest problems in the previous invasions.
this one always makes me giggle. what was he DOING
[удалено]
lol cmon, he trusted Cats judgement of Littlefinger and his fate was sealed then. Otherwise he isn’t anywhere close to being 0 iq
Cat and Ned were also basing the fundamental pillar of their knowledge on a lie. Lysa (and LIttlefinger)'s letter saying 'someone' murdered Jon Arryn informed much of Ned and Cat's moves. Their decisions were manipulated
Yeah, when Catelyn doesn't know the truth about how Lysa was in love with Littlefinger, she raped him, he thought it was Catelyn later causing the duel, she raped him again when he was horribly injured, and Hoster had their baby aborted.... You can kind of understand why "My sister is lying to me and trying to manipulate me in a way that can cause our deaths" wasn't anywhere near being on her radar.
Ned continued to distrust Littlefinger after Catelyn left King's Landing. >Promise or no promise, he could not find it in him to trust Lord Petyr Baelish, who struck him as too clever by half. (AGOT Eddard V) >Aside from his own retainers, there was scarcely a man in this city he trusted. Littlefinger had concealed Catelyn and helped Ned in his inquiries, yet his haste to save his own skin when Jaime and his swords had come out of the rain still rankled. (AGOT Eddard XII)
I mean, despite his misgivings, Ned trusted Littlefinger enough to get played by him in trying to get the gold cloaks which was what got him arrested.
I reread the series recently and in Feast during Cersei 1 or 2 Kevan (probably on my top 3 fav secondary character list) yaps about having 500 houndred men in his disposal or whatever in order to threaten Cersei... and then proceeds to tell her he knows about the incest.... Bro your beloved brother just died i get it but don't vent so much, any skeleton army of some riverlord who wants to ingratiate himself with the crown can kick your ass.
If I recall correctly it was Cersei who started being hostile by belittling Kevan and basically saying he was never more than Tywin's lapdog. She tries to boss Kevan around and (in her thoughts) accuses him of treason when he says something she disagrees with. I don't think Kevan was really threatening her, he was just pushing back against her saying he's just a household knight. I agree the way he says it may not have been the smartest, but he's pretty competent in general. He just lost his cool trying to deal with Cersei.
It’s that and it’s also Kevan saying that if Cersei tries to force him to become hand with threats it will be more trouble than it’s worth.
>Aemond Targaryen: Inexplicably abandoning Ser Criston Cole + Royal Host to go burn some castles + settlements in the Riverlands with his dragon, Vhagar, that were loyal to Rhaenyra (note: fairly certain it is not impossible that he attacked green sympathisers as well) following the fall of KL. This lead to the destruction of the Royal Host and the death of Ser Criston at the Butcher's Ball. I will argue that's a 0 IQ moment by George who basically wrote an ineffective chevauchée by a guy with a fucking nuke in the riverlands while in the main series a big bloke with his lads does a effective one oad stuff.
Sansa siding with the queen and Jeffrey and accidentally getting her wolf killed. & when she doesn’t learn the lesson and keeps on sucking up to Cersie
To be fair, had Cersei had her way, Ned would have just ended up at the Wall. Jeffrey was the problem.
That jeff sure was evil
Have you considered narrating the audio books??
Jeffrey Baratheon didn't kill himself
jaime attempting to kill robb at the whispering wood. like, my dude, you ain't barristan "turn the tide of the battle because of my big cock" selmy. dumbass should have ordered for an orderly retreat to evade capture by robb similar to what robert did when randyll tarly catched his ass.
My zero IQ character would be Sansa, although her arc is progressing to an extent where she’d be a massive player, I believe. But tell her a secret, she’d give it to the Queen, Dontos, Ned, Cat, Littlefinger, and Moon Biy for all I know. The worst moment? Telling Dontos about the marriage with the Reach doesn’t sting as much as it I thought it would courtesy of her being safeguarded by LF in a familiar region, but telling the Queen about her father planning an escapade is vehemently disastrous and outright cretinously bovine
I think Catelyn Tully has a monopoly on these moments...
Balon the Bold More like Balon the dumb
Catelyn freeing Jaime against Robb’s wishes.
Readers of asoiaf, waiting for winds of winter😝😝😝
aerion drinking wildfire, vargo maiming jaime, everything that both sides did after rhaenyra took KL during the dance (seriously, theyd all lost the plot), sansa telling dontos about her potential betrothal to willas, robb marrying jeyne, everything ned did in KL, jon sending pretty much all of his friends away as soon as he becomes LC, tywin holding out hope that jaime would succeed him and not taking tyrion seriously
Cat just randomly abducting Tyrion, I mean what did she think Tywin was going to do? Send a rude letter? Such a politically naive move.
I disagree. It was a political gamble which was completely justified in the moment and only looks stupid in the hindsight - because we know Lysa Arryn is a paranoid trainwreck. Catelyn only captured Tyrion because she was convinced of Tyrion's guilt and thought Lysa and The Knights of the Vale would side with Starks in the case of war. That's a reasonable assumption to make considering it was Lysa who told her about Jon Arryn's death, promptly left King's Landing and surrounded herself with an army 30.000 strong. As Catelyn left King's Landing, Ned was still Robert's Hand, gathering evidence of Jon Arryn's death. That's a very strong bargaining chip. Of course - he ends up resigning because of the plotted assassination of Daenerys. If there's a 0 IQ moment from both Catelyn and Ned, it's trusting Littlefinger. But hey - the plot needs to happen.
Pretty much anything Robb Stark did outside of fighting he was a could battle commander shitty decision maker