3+2 is the right control for OTB, it is close to impossible to gain time with 1 second increment OTB since it takes around a second just to make a move and press the clock. We saw in Norway Chess, there were multiple occasions of players flagging with 1 second increment in Armageddon, Magnus included.
But for online they should've gone with 3+1. Especially since 3+1 is the time control where Kramnik has usually played José and lost. With the 1 second increment online, José's far superior mouse speed plus making premoves means he can rack up time a lot quicker than Kramnik in scrambles, which often goes a long way towards deciding the outcome of the game.
I don't follow the blitz scene too much. It feels bizarre to me that mouse speed and premoving are acknowledged as essential “skills” for a chess player. Feels like a whole different sport/game.
think of it like running a marathon vs a 400m race. even though both involve running, they require slightly different abilities and skillsets. a top marathoner would beat the average person in a 400m race just because of physical condition and training, but would not be able to beat a 400m specialist.
Agreed. I don’t like that this is like 50% of the deciding factor of the game, how quick you are with a mouse click… it shouldn’t factor at all.
It’s equivalent to: if the game was playing by saying the moves out instead (Ne4+, Kd2, Qa1…), would your inability to speak quickly been seen as “fair” if the end result is related to how quickly you can pronounce it.
Completely unfair.
I don’t know how to solve it, though. Click a button and time stops maybe and you immediately write down move or something… some faster way to input move…
Honestly, a DELAY is probably the most fair in online. 1 sec added back, plus 3s delay. Somehow make that workout so that you don’t get extra time for being super quick, but you lose it for taking too long to think.
I’ll think through some way…
OP is going backwards from their conclusion about Kramnik. However Kramnik might be deranged in real life, 3 + 2 is a perfect time control for OTB as well as online chess.
Being a playable time control and being the time control that shluld've been played are different things. If he accused him of cheating in TT, then online portion should be played in TT format, otherwise it's like me calling you a cheater in 100m dash and challenge you to a 150m dash to prove it
Ah, that fairy tale that jospem only outplays everyone in time scrambles. Especially guys like Nepo who was a semi-pro dota player, guess he is just not fast enough.
So far jospem had shown exactly what he is - maybe a top-50-100 blitz player. If you think that mouse speed and premoves can suddenly make player of this caliber top-3-5 in title tuesdays you are simply delusional, this is all.
Well, Kramnik is only #48 in the world so I don't think a close loss to him proves Jospem is more than just top 50... but I think him being #23 in the world might haha.
I will explain why you are being DV:
Jospem was not cheating. The last TT he won, he was being filmed by chess.com as per their anticheating protocols.
Since these test are usually secret, Kramnik started launching accusations without knowing he was making a clown of himself.
OTB it arguably makes sense, key word being arguably. It does take longer to physically move the pieces than to use a mouse. For the online sections, yeah - absolutely ridiculous and factored in to cater solely to Kramnik.
> It does take longer to physically move the pieces than to use a mouse.
I have my doubt about that, *but you have to hit the clock* in OTB, I think that's the real time killer. In the end we're probably talking about the same thing anyway.
You also have to be careful not to knock any pieces over, and keep an eye out for illegal moves. Neither of these thing are a factor online.
For an example of how chaotic OTB can get without decent increment, just watch the end of this video with Kramnik himself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD\_\_bH1fL\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD__bH1fL_s)
As someoneone whos has just done a blitz 3,2 29 round robin today. 3,2 is the bare minimum otb blitz games can be at while alloeing players a reasonable time to make moves
Unrelated to the event but speaking of which, I wonder how things will change if we match them. Either an auto detect on the pieces and board the automatically change the clock when a move’s made OTB, or after everyone you make a move you have to press the clock in online, also allow illegal moves as well and a report illegal move button.
It's just a match, not an experiment. Calling it an "experiment" was little more than a joke from the start, and as soon as Jose got one win OTB, whatever experiment could be done was over.
People's opinions are so hard to change. I don't think 3+1 would have convinced the "Jospem is cheating crowd" anymore than 3+2 is. Even when the match was announced most of us realized this was going to increase Jospem's recognition, not settle the cheating debate.
> as soon as Jose got one win OTB, whatever experiment could be done was over
But Jose is higher rated than Kramnik OTB and I don't think anyone's accusing Jose of cheating OTB so him beating Kramnik in some of the games doesn't mean anything.
The purpose of the match is to demonstrate the difference between playing OTB and playing online. If Jose crushes Kramnik tomorrow then Kramnik will be forced to accept that mouse skills and pre-moves matter and that online specialists are a thing.
And if he doesn't crush him, well that won't prove anything because they're playing 3+2 instead of 3+1 so Jospem not repeating his TT performances is to be expected. Plus a match format where you can prepare for 1 opponent isn't the same as TT anyway.
The event is definitely a way to make money off the drama first and an experiment second, but it can potentially demonstrate something. I mean if Jospem can still crush Kramnik with a 2 second increment then Kramnik and his followers really would have to admit they're wrong about online specialists.
Yeah, a lot of redditors have jumped on the idea that Kramnik accused Jose of cheating because he beat him, and therefore if he beats him legit, this accusation is invalid.
This is all entirely wrong, but it's been said so many times now that people just think they're right because they all agree.
Classic reddit.
Kramnik accused him of cheating because his online performance was better than his real-life rating. The idea is that if he can't emulate that performance level when watched, that's at least suspect. For the match, Kramnik has said he expects to lose because he's old and lower-rated.
Unfortunately Kramnik then ruined an idea that does have some validity by insisting on a different time format, which is the dumbest part of all this.
Jose won titled Tuesday (came second sorry) while being filmed with an irl chess com crew. But of course that wasn't enough for kramnik who thinks chess com is in on it. I mean come on. This is all ridiculous.
Yeah, definitely. This is how it works - get one win vs 50 years old Kramnik who is btw 2660 OTB blitz and is retired for half a decade and call it a day since this is obviously the level which is enough to be top-3-5 TT player in past years.
Reddit is so funny sometimes. No one really doubted that jospem is a capable chess player. The only problem is that he is literal online god who is getting to prize money in TT on 25% of occasions, topped only by Hikaru, Magnus, Duda and I can't really recall who is 4th but well, this doesn't matter.
Well if anything OTB he doesn't look nearly as good enough to achieve this legitimately. And don't start with premoves and mouse speed, pls. Sure, Kramnik is slow and old and doesn't use premoves but 99% of people who jospem plays in TT are not. Some mouse skills shouldn't make top-50 player a top-5 player. Especially since they don't make let's say Nepo so - and who is better at mouse skills than a guy who was a legitimate tier-2 cybersportsman in a game that requires decent APM to play on a top level?
What I said is that this *isn't* a useful experiment. It's just a match. Why are you pretending I made a claim about it proving something?
If Jospem had been totally outclassed in every game over the board, then arguably, it would have proven something. That was never going to happen, no one ever thought it would happen, and it didn't happen. So it's just a match.
The more time goes on the more I think 3+2 for the online portion might be okay.
3+1 is unarguably the best time control for allowing Jospem to show off his 3+1 skills in a controlled environment, ostensibly the purpose of this tournament. However, very few people believe Jospem cheated. I'm not even sure Kramnik still believes it in his heart of hearts. So whilst seeing Kramnik getting crushed at 3+1 might be cathartic I am not sure how much it will actually tell us.
By playing 3+2 online we can directly contrast the OTB results with the online ones. Kramnik did all right in the 14 OTB games, finishing ahead of Jospem by a point. If Jospem proceeds to crush Kramnik online at the same time control as the OTB games that is going to suggest something more generally about the nature of online/OTB play and the differences between them. If Kramnik gets crushed about 3+1 on the other hand we'll just say, 'Kramnik doesn't do so well with lower increment', which we already know.
I was ready to disagree emphatically, but this is actually a really good point, well argued.
I still think the entire premise of this match was Kramnik calling out Jospem to play in person based on his "interesting statistics" and Kramnik’s repeated attacks on Jospem’s integrity. Since all of Kramnik’s "not accusations" were about Jospem’s performance in 3+1, that is the only format that would make sense if Kramnik were actually interested in proving anything.
But given that Kramnik has chosen to demand a format that only serves to give him better odds at an improved score, I am actually very glad that it ended up being the same as the OTB for the reasons you laid out here. Even regardless of the result, it’s going to provide useful data showing how much time per move, mouse, and pre-move skills translate to, compared to OTB.
Thanks for sharing your insights on this; it definitely changed my perspective on tomorrow’s games.
>By playing 3+2 online we can directly contrast the OTB results with the online ones.
Not really. 3+2 online is much more time than 3+2 over the board. Moving the piece, removing pieces, avoiding hitting any other pieces, hitting the clock, not being able to premove all adds up to about a second, maybe more. 3+2 over the board is a constant time scramble. 3+1 would be a much better parallel/comparison
Two points:
1. Seeing the exact difference between 3+2 otb and 3+2 online would be interesting in and of itself between players who embrace both formats.
2. The argument 3+1 online == 3+2 otb would be a much more compelling if the player in question was not Vladimir Kramnik
Here's my attempt at understanding 3+2 for online.
While people can be relatively better at online blitz, Kramnik feels that Jospem is overperforming by too much online compared to his OTB blitz strength (not just against Kramnik, but overall). The OTB portion of the match is a control to determine Jospem's strength. Then see how much better Jospem performs online.
If Jospem is competitive OTB, then that would indicate that he is not as weak as Kramnik thought and so his online results are more believable. If his online performance greatly eclipses his OTB under supervised conditions then that would also be a point in his favour, indicating that he really is an online blitz specialist. However, at 3+1 online the difference could alternatively be explained by Kramnik underperforming because he's especially slow with a mouse, so 3+2 is an attempt to mitigate that. In some ways it helps Jospem, because if he still washes Kramnik online then it's a lot harder to say he isn't legit.
The problem is of course that 3+2 is a very different game. Even Kramnik was able to build back a lot of time on his clock, which doesn't happen in 3+1. It would have been more reliable for Jospem to play against someone with less of a difference between their OTB and online blitz strength, or against a field of top players. But that's more difficult to arrange, and Kramnik wouldn't be able to verify everything firsthand.
Edit: after commenting, I saw that u/DramaLlamaNite had said pretty much the same thing, more concisely
You make it sound like it was an equal decision by both players, but only one of them demanded this format and the other one had to either accept or not get the chance to play a match to clear his name (not to mention a lot of money). That is a lot of leverage, does it really have to be a fucking gun for it to be unreasonable?
And wouldn't you know it, it was Kramnik who made this demand (confirmed by the organizer), who is without a shadow of a doubt the one who benefits massively from this format. And he demands this despite all the "not accusations" and "interesting statistics" he has repeatedly spouted as a direct attacks on Jospems integrety were regarding performances in 3+1.
It is honestly astounding how he can make this self-serving of a demand and still pretend to have any legitimacy left. But I guess protecting his fragile ego is more important than actually backing up any of his claims.
This argument of Kramnik holding leverage would hold weight if Kramniks opinion actually mattered in the Chess community or amongst professional chess players. But it doesn’t. Kramnik has proven himself to be a lunatic. Jospem did not need to take on this match to clear his name because no one takes Kramnik seriously.
Sidenote: Go look at the comments on his videos, there is definitely still a scary amount of people who still think of him as the saviour of chess fighting against the pro-cheating deepstate at chess.com. And there are still some respected top players who support him from time to time.
And I do agree that Jospem didn't necesarily have to go out of his way to make the match happen. But his name has consistently been raked through the mud and it must be so tiring that every time you do well or are in the spotlight for any reason a previous world champion pops up and starts raining on your parade. Danya has mentioned that even the one accusation he received took a toll on his mental health, so how much worse must it have been for Jospem? Getting falsely accused is one of the worst feelings I've personally experienced, and for me it was by a teacher over plagiarism on a meaningless ungraded paper. But imagine the accuser being someone you look up to, a world champion, someone of historic importance in your chosen field. That must feel absolutely terrible. So when Kramnik called him out and said the "in person, any time" thing (paraphrasing), I 100% understand why Jospem did it.
Now when it actually comes to actual contract negotiations, funding would have been secured, a significant amount of people had been involved, and a lot of time and effort will have already been put into making this happen, so at that point Kramnik undeniably held a lot of leverage. Especially if he was willing to walk away and leave them all hanging (which we know he was because he literally defaulted to that immediately during the drama on the first day). Imagine being Jospem at that point, having decided to do this, to risk his reputation to show his abilities so he can finally get clear of this shit, and even managing to earn a very good amount of money for it. And then Kramnik starts asking for this or that or he won't do it.
Jospem probably should have walked away at several points, but then he would've known that Kramnik could continue to spew his crap and just say that Jospem was the one who didn't want to play. Add on that a minimum payday of 8k is very hard to walk away from for anyone, and even more so in a Mexican context.
TLDR
All of this to say that Kramnik's leverage didn't rest on his reputation, but on Jospems desire to shut him up and the money and effort that would go to waste if they didn't agree to his demands.
Yea it's wild. And in this case there was even the metaphorical gun of the match getting called off if Kramniks unreasonable demands weren't met, something he even suggested during the shit show yesterday.
But I guess it has to be a real fucking Dessert Eagle or something involved for it to be unfair.
It pretty much is like that. At least metaphorically. If Jospem doesn't give in to Kramnik's demand it will just give Kramnik ammunition and excuses to keep damaging Jospem's reputation.
Kramnik's opinion is dogshit though. He's not a respected figure anymore due to his lunatic theories, so who cares what he's saying. Its like a random homeless person on the street yelling, you can just ignore them.
Kramnik still has a large following of supporters that are plenty happy to take him at his word that specific players are cheating without any real evidence. Obviously most people can tell that Kramnik is being completely unreasonable, but he's still generating a lot of hate and harassment towards these players.
Kramnik has a large following of random twitch viewers who listen to him. So what? Their opinions don’t matter anymore than Kramniks. What respected chess figures give Kramniks opinion any weight? Can we name a single figure? If not, why does his opinion matter?
The fact Kramnik thinks pre moving is cheating — tells me he fundamentally does not understand online chess.
It’s a different game with different rules… and he thinks OTB and online are the same. They are not.
The pieces move the same… that’s about it. Every other rule is different than OTB, and he should understand that and just his strategy.
He’s just too old to want to change… and it shows.
You don't even need to know anything about chess to understand this.
This experiment has no scientific merit anyway. But if it's going to have even any superficial claim of merit, you have to recreate the same conditions in the experiment. Any science undergraduate in any discipline will tell you that you cannot change any of the conditions in any such study, unless you're specifically testing for differences related to that condition. In fact, I would say even a 14 year-old studying science at high school knows this.
As soon as you deliberately change the conditions when making a comparison between two data sets, it completely invalidates any data or conclusions drawn. Unless, as mentioned, you are specifically testing for that condition, which they are not.
Kramnik goes on and on and on about fucking statistics, as if he's a scientist, and then insists on doing something that removes absolutely all merit from this experiment, and which runs completely contrary to fundamental principles in such studies.
That's before you take the chess aspect into consideration. Everyone who has played chess at 1000 level or above knows that 3+1 and 3+2 are fundamentally different (that's insulting to under-1000 players, most of whom are probably fully aware of this). It's not merely that you get more time, you can far more readily play on the increment. That is indeed precisely why they have two-second increments OTB - to make it feasible to play on the increment. Very fast, skilful, tactical players can play online on a one-second increment, although it is still difficult. Kramnik cannot do this! We know this; we've seen him try!
You actually couldn't make it up. Let's do this big 'experiment', let's cite all of these fucking nonsense statistics, as if it's scientific, let's go through all this rigmarole with computers and reinstalling Windows...oh, and by the way, let's do something that utterly invalidates the whole thing.
> As soon as you deliberately change the conditions when making a comparison between two data sets, it completely invalidates any data or conclusions drawn.
Do you actually believe this?
It's not a case of believing it. If you're testing for something, you don't deliberately change the testing conditions from the scenario that you're comparing it with, unless you are testing the condition that you alter itself. That's how studies work.
You can't always guarantee that you're creating uniform conditions for numerous reasons. But you don't deliberately change one of the most fundamental variables in an experiment, test or study, if you want to generate credible results.
Unless, as I say, you're testing that condition itself. In this scenario, they would have to be testing the difference between 3+1 and 3+2 online, which they are not. What they are testing is whether Jospem can perform as well against Kramnik, while in controlled conditions, to see whether he may have cheated in TT.
Any scientist, in any discipline, or indeed anyone studying science will tell you, that you therefore have to, as faithfully as possible, recreate the conditions that exist in TT. That is what happens in any meaningful study or experiment.
Fundamentally changing the experimental conditions through your own intervention is precisely what any credible researcher goes to great lengths to avoid. In fact, virtually any published scientific paper will have a lengthy section acknowledging all of the factors that could have influenced the results, many of which are beyond the control of the researchers. But you don't deliberately introduce your own!
If you wrote a paper on this experiment, you would have to say: we deliberately changed the time control, which invalidated all of the results, because we failed to create the same conditions as the data set that we were comparing with, even though we could have easily used the same time control.
Isnt there a difference between 2s increment vs 2 second delay?
2s increment allows you to gain time, but I feel like it is there just to not have you flag
Delay never gives you time, but doesnt run down your clock before the 2s
Hope Levy can ask both to play 4 extra 3+1 games more for some extra cash. They are all there, just play few more for statistics and validation. no loss here.
Karmanik has no interest in actually having this match validate anything except for his own ridiculous claims. Why would he agree to something that makes him look even more wrong.
Which is weird because with the way the match is set up Kramnik is the only one who can lose. If Jospem doesn't crush him tomorrow it can be explained by them playing 3+2 instead of 3+1 where Jospem excels. And if Jospem does crush him despite a 2 second increment then Kramnik's crusade against online specialists will be in tatters.
Not really. Kramnik accused jospem of cheating in titled Tuesdays which is 3+1. But then goes goes on to insist that he would only play 3+2 against jospem because his mouse skills are shit.
This entire thing was a farce from the beginning.
Right. If they played 3+1 and Jospem lost, you would be applauding Kramnik, and calling Jospem a cheater.
/s
1. Jospem accepted those time controls.
2. 99% of you don't care about facts, or chess at all - you are just rooting or hating Kramnik
Most of what Kramnik says is either bad, or stated the very wrong way - but good part of his claims is true. I have no respect for people that just pick side, and disregard everything that counters their agenda (yesterday I saw a post "But something was really wrong with timer on Kramnik's screen" (that's full post), and that post received 50 downvotes - that's absolutely insane, flat-earther level)
The only one who is picking sides is you mate.
Kramnik accuses jospem of cheating in 3+1 format. If kramnik was so sure that jospem was cheating then he should have played him in 3+1 format. This is common sense.
Instead kramnik insisted he would ONLY play 3+2. which is a completely different game.
Yes. Jospem agreed BECAUSE KRAMNIK wouldn't play otherwise. 🤷🤷
Yes, Jospem cant find machine-alike sequences and his opening prep is subpar because of increment difference. For sure.
Endgames - no dispute here, Kramnik is a few classes above, he can only salvage by flagging
Subpar, machine, openings and endgames but Jospem just destroyed him in the last two otb games of today with all conditions Kramnik wanted yet he still has to deal with cheating insinuations coming from who's actually just a paranoic exchampion and the eternal second Nepo plus their entourage. The man, by the way, involved in the cheating scandal against Topalov, at the time I thought that was absurd but today I'm not so sure if Kramnik cheated back then.
What a way to ruin your legacy as WC. Not so smart off the board I guess.
3+2 is the right control for OTB, it is close to impossible to gain time with 1 second increment OTB since it takes around a second just to make a move and press the clock. We saw in Norway Chess, there were multiple occasions of players flagging with 1 second increment in Armageddon, Magnus included. But for online they should've gone with 3+1. Especially since 3+1 is the time control where Kramnik has usually played José and lost. With the 1 second increment online, José's far superior mouse speed plus making premoves means he can rack up time a lot quicker than Kramnik in scrambles, which often goes a long way towards deciding the outcome of the game.
I don't follow the blitz scene too much. It feels bizarre to me that mouse speed and premoving are acknowledged as essential “skills” for a chess player. Feels like a whole different sport/game.
It is a whole different game. Kramnik should just acknowledge he's bad at that version of the game, instead he accuses everyone else of cheating
think of it like running a marathon vs a 400m race. even though both involve running, they require slightly different abilities and skillsets. a top marathoner would beat the average person in a 400m race just because of physical condition and training, but would not be able to beat a 400m specialist.
Well yes, obviously, OTB Classical and OTB Blitz themselves are two completely different sports/games as well.
Agreed. I don’t like that this is like 50% of the deciding factor of the game, how quick you are with a mouse click… it shouldn’t factor at all. It’s equivalent to: if the game was playing by saying the moves out instead (Ne4+, Kd2, Qa1…), would your inability to speak quickly been seen as “fair” if the end result is related to how quickly you can pronounce it. Completely unfair. I don’t know how to solve it, though. Click a button and time stops maybe and you immediately write down move or something… some faster way to input move… Honestly, a DELAY is probably the most fair in online. 1 sec added back, plus 3s delay. Somehow make that workout so that you don’t get extra time for being super quick, but you lose it for taking too long to think. I’ll think through some way…
you can argue blitz chess involves hand skills
OP is going backwards from their conclusion about Kramnik. However Kramnik might be deranged in real life, 3 + 2 is a perfect time control for OTB as well as online chess.
Being a playable time control and being the time control that shluld've been played are different things. If he accused him of cheating in TT, then online portion should be played in TT format, otherwise it's like me calling you a cheater in 100m dash and challenge you to a 150m dash to prove it
150m dash is the perfect distance, Kramnik and Jose should do just that!
Ah, that fairy tale that jospem only outplays everyone in time scrambles. Especially guys like Nepo who was a semi-pro dota player, guess he is just not fast enough. So far jospem had shown exactly what he is - maybe a top-50-100 blitz player. If you think that mouse speed and premoves can suddenly make player of this caliber top-3-5 in title tuesdays you are simply delusional, this is all.
That's a lot of assumptions. Literally the only thing he said was that he's fast with a mouse and that that helps him.
Dawg Jose and Kramnik were basically tied in otb blitz chess lol, how is he only "top 50"?
Well, Kramnik is only #48 in the world so I don't think a close loss to him proves Jospem is more than just top 50... but I think him being #23 in the world might haha.
This sub is full of fanbois who don't want to believe anyone cheats Just like the CSGO sub
I will explain why you are being DV: Jospem was not cheating. The last TT he won, he was being filmed by chess.com as per their anticheating protocols. Since these test are usually secret, Kramnik started launching accusations without knowing he was making a clown of himself.
OTB it arguably makes sense, key word being arguably. It does take longer to physically move the pieces than to use a mouse. For the online sections, yeah - absolutely ridiculous and factored in to cater solely to Kramnik.
> It does take longer to physically move the pieces than to use a mouse. I have my doubt about that, *but you have to hit the clock* in OTB, I think that's the real time killer. In the end we're probably talking about the same thing anyway.
You also have to be careful not to knock any pieces over, and keep an eye out for illegal moves. Neither of these thing are a factor online. For an example of how chaotic OTB can get without decent increment, just watch the end of this video with Kramnik himself: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD\_\_bH1fL\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD__bH1fL_s)
Taking pieces also takes a bit longer compared to moving something to an empty square
As someoneone whos has just done a blitz 3,2 29 round robin today. 3,2 is the bare minimum otb blitz games can be at while alloeing players a reasonable time to make moves
Unrelated to the event but speaking of which, I wonder how things will change if we match them. Either an auto detect on the pieces and board the automatically change the clock when a move’s made OTB, or after everyone you make a move you have to press the clock in online, also allow illegal moves as well and a report illegal move button.
Given the delay we often see with DGT broadcasts, I’m not convinced that physically hitting the clock isn’t still faster.
Lol moving pieces online is so much faster than OTB not even including clock hit, it's not even funny.
Moving a mouse one centimeter turns out is easier than moving a piece irl. Who knew?
Crazy enough I think Kramnik is faster OTB than online lmao (I think both should be 3+1 but yeah at least you could make a case for OTB)
He's certainly more practiced in OTB blitz than he is any form of playing chess with a mouse.
Kramnik might be amongst the fastest otb players along with vishy. When it comes to online, bottom percentiles imo
Yep, very silly. Even then, Kramnik's mouse skills are so poor that I think Jose will still do well tomorrow.
It's just a match, not an experiment. Calling it an "experiment" was little more than a joke from the start, and as soon as Jose got one win OTB, whatever experiment could be done was over.
This is feels just like a show match indeed.
People's opinions are so hard to change. I don't think 3+1 would have convinced the "Jospem is cheating crowd" anymore than 3+2 is. Even when the match was announced most of us realized this was going to increase Jospem's recognition, not settle the cheating debate.
> as soon as Jose got one win OTB, whatever experiment could be done was over But Jose is higher rated than Kramnik OTB and I don't think anyone's accusing Jose of cheating OTB so him beating Kramnik in some of the games doesn't mean anything. The purpose of the match is to demonstrate the difference between playing OTB and playing online. If Jose crushes Kramnik tomorrow then Kramnik will be forced to accept that mouse skills and pre-moves matter and that online specialists are a thing. And if he doesn't crush him, well that won't prove anything because they're playing 3+2 instead of 3+1 so Jospem not repeating his TT performances is to be expected. Plus a match format where you can prepare for 1 opponent isn't the same as TT anyway. The event is definitely a way to make money off the drama first and an experiment second, but it can potentially demonstrate something. I mean if Jospem can still crush Kramnik with a 2 second increment then Kramnik and his followers really would have to admit they're wrong about online specialists.
Yeah, a lot of redditors have jumped on the idea that Kramnik accused Jose of cheating because he beat him, and therefore if he beats him legit, this accusation is invalid. This is all entirely wrong, but it's been said so many times now that people just think they're right because they all agree. Classic reddit. Kramnik accused him of cheating because his online performance was better than his real-life rating. The idea is that if he can't emulate that performance level when watched, that's at least suspect. For the match, Kramnik has said he expects to lose because he's old and lower-rated. Unfortunately Kramnik then ruined an idea that does have some validity by insisting on a different time format, which is the dumbest part of all this.
Jose won titled Tuesday (came second sorry) while being filmed with an irl chess com crew. But of course that wasn't enough for kramnik who thinks chess com is in on it. I mean come on. This is all ridiculous.
Yeah, definitely. This is how it works - get one win vs 50 years old Kramnik who is btw 2660 OTB blitz and is retired for half a decade and call it a day since this is obviously the level which is enough to be top-3-5 TT player in past years. Reddit is so funny sometimes. No one really doubted that jospem is a capable chess player. The only problem is that he is literal online god who is getting to prize money in TT on 25% of occasions, topped only by Hikaru, Magnus, Duda and I can't really recall who is 4th but well, this doesn't matter. Well if anything OTB he doesn't look nearly as good enough to achieve this legitimately. And don't start with premoves and mouse speed, pls. Sure, Kramnik is slow and old and doesn't use premoves but 99% of people who jospem plays in TT are not. Some mouse skills shouldn't make top-50 player a top-5 player. Especially since they don't make let's say Nepo so - and who is better at mouse skills than a guy who was a legitimate tier-2 cybersportsman in a game that requires decent APM to play on a top level?
Stick to making fun of people who don't understand Stockfish development, you are very wrong here.
What I said is that this *isn't* a useful experiment. It's just a match. Why are you pretending I made a claim about it proving something? If Jospem had been totally outclassed in every game over the board, then arguably, it would have proven something. That was never going to happen, no one ever thought it would happen, and it didn't happen. So it's just a match.
Comments like yours are a perfect example of how skill in one field often doesn't mean jack shit in another. Please stick to stockfish development.
So it's understandable that players could be better OTB than online, but anyone better online than OTB has to be cheating?
This sub is full of fanbois who don't want to believe anyone cheats Just like the CSGO sub
The more time goes on the more I think 3+2 for the online portion might be okay. 3+1 is unarguably the best time control for allowing Jospem to show off his 3+1 skills in a controlled environment, ostensibly the purpose of this tournament. However, very few people believe Jospem cheated. I'm not even sure Kramnik still believes it in his heart of hearts. So whilst seeing Kramnik getting crushed at 3+1 might be cathartic I am not sure how much it will actually tell us. By playing 3+2 online we can directly contrast the OTB results with the online ones. Kramnik did all right in the 14 OTB games, finishing ahead of Jospem by a point. If Jospem proceeds to crush Kramnik online at the same time control as the OTB games that is going to suggest something more generally about the nature of online/OTB play and the differences between them. If Kramnik gets crushed about 3+1 on the other hand we'll just say, 'Kramnik doesn't do so well with lower increment', which we already know.
I was ready to disagree emphatically, but this is actually a really good point, well argued. I still think the entire premise of this match was Kramnik calling out Jospem to play in person based on his "interesting statistics" and Kramnik’s repeated attacks on Jospem’s integrity. Since all of Kramnik’s "not accusations" were about Jospem’s performance in 3+1, that is the only format that would make sense if Kramnik were actually interested in proving anything. But given that Kramnik has chosen to demand a format that only serves to give him better odds at an improved score, I am actually very glad that it ended up being the same as the OTB for the reasons you laid out here. Even regardless of the result, it’s going to provide useful data showing how much time per move, mouse, and pre-move skills translate to, compared to OTB. Thanks for sharing your insights on this; it definitely changed my perspective on tomorrow’s games.
I don't think I've been thanked for my insights before. I appreciate your reply, cheers.
Well then it's about damn time! Cheers
>By playing 3+2 online we can directly contrast the OTB results with the online ones. Not really. 3+2 online is much more time than 3+2 over the board. Moving the piece, removing pieces, avoiding hitting any other pieces, hitting the clock, not being able to premove all adds up to about a second, maybe more. 3+2 over the board is a constant time scramble. 3+1 would be a much better parallel/comparison
Two points: 1. Seeing the exact difference between 3+2 otb and 3+2 online would be interesting in and of itself between players who embrace both formats. 2. The argument 3+1 online == 3+2 otb would be a much more compelling if the player in question was not Vladimir Kramnik
This sub is full of fanbois who don't want to believe anyone cheats Just like the CSGO sub
Lmao. How many times you gonna copy-paste that lil bro?
Enough times till people wake up
Not people, just you. Hope you make it.
Here's my attempt at understanding 3+2 for online. While people can be relatively better at online blitz, Kramnik feels that Jospem is overperforming by too much online compared to his OTB blitz strength (not just against Kramnik, but overall). The OTB portion of the match is a control to determine Jospem's strength. Then see how much better Jospem performs online. If Jospem is competitive OTB, then that would indicate that he is not as weak as Kramnik thought and so his online results are more believable. If his online performance greatly eclipses his OTB under supervised conditions then that would also be a point in his favour, indicating that he really is an online blitz specialist. However, at 3+1 online the difference could alternatively be explained by Kramnik underperforming because he's especially slow with a mouse, so 3+2 is an attempt to mitigate that. In some ways it helps Jospem, because if he still washes Kramnik online then it's a lot harder to say he isn't legit. The problem is of course that 3+2 is a very different game. Even Kramnik was able to build back a lot of time on his clock, which doesn't happen in 3+1. It would have been more reliable for Jospem to play against someone with less of a difference between their OTB and online blitz strength, or against a field of top players. But that's more difficult to arrange, and Kramnik wouldn't be able to verify everything firsthand. Edit: after commenting, I saw that u/DramaLlamaNite had said pretty much the same thing, more concisely
In my view Kramnik's refusal to embrace any aspect of improving specifically at online chess makes him the perfect opponent to contrast with OTB play.
What is the goal of this experiment?
Generate content
Who gives a shit? Both players freely agreed to the time format. No one held a gun to their heads to make them agree to it.
You make it sound like it was an equal decision by both players, but only one of them demanded this format and the other one had to either accept or not get the chance to play a match to clear his name (not to mention a lot of money). That is a lot of leverage, does it really have to be a fucking gun for it to be unreasonable? And wouldn't you know it, it was Kramnik who made this demand (confirmed by the organizer), who is without a shadow of a doubt the one who benefits massively from this format. And he demands this despite all the "not accusations" and "interesting statistics" he has repeatedly spouted as a direct attacks on Jospems integrety were regarding performances in 3+1. It is honestly astounding how he can make this self-serving of a demand and still pretend to have any legitimacy left. But I guess protecting his fragile ego is more important than actually backing up any of his claims.
This argument of Kramnik holding leverage would hold weight if Kramniks opinion actually mattered in the Chess community or amongst professional chess players. But it doesn’t. Kramnik has proven himself to be a lunatic. Jospem did not need to take on this match to clear his name because no one takes Kramnik seriously.
Sidenote: Go look at the comments on his videos, there is definitely still a scary amount of people who still think of him as the saviour of chess fighting against the pro-cheating deepstate at chess.com. And there are still some respected top players who support him from time to time. And I do agree that Jospem didn't necesarily have to go out of his way to make the match happen. But his name has consistently been raked through the mud and it must be so tiring that every time you do well or are in the spotlight for any reason a previous world champion pops up and starts raining on your parade. Danya has mentioned that even the one accusation he received took a toll on his mental health, so how much worse must it have been for Jospem? Getting falsely accused is one of the worst feelings I've personally experienced, and for me it was by a teacher over plagiarism on a meaningless ungraded paper. But imagine the accuser being someone you look up to, a world champion, someone of historic importance in your chosen field. That must feel absolutely terrible. So when Kramnik called him out and said the "in person, any time" thing (paraphrasing), I 100% understand why Jospem did it. Now when it actually comes to actual contract negotiations, funding would have been secured, a significant amount of people had been involved, and a lot of time and effort will have already been put into making this happen, so at that point Kramnik undeniably held a lot of leverage. Especially if he was willing to walk away and leave them all hanging (which we know he was because he literally defaulted to that immediately during the drama on the first day). Imagine being Jospem at that point, having decided to do this, to risk his reputation to show his abilities so he can finally get clear of this shit, and even managing to earn a very good amount of money for it. And then Kramnik starts asking for this or that or he won't do it. Jospem probably should have walked away at several points, but then he would've known that Kramnik could continue to spew his crap and just say that Jospem was the one who didn't want to play. Add on that a minimum payday of 8k is very hard to walk away from for anyone, and even more so in a Mexican context. TLDR All of this to say that Kramnik's leverage didn't rest on his reputation, but on Jospems desire to shut him up and the money and effort that would go to waste if they didn't agree to his demands.
Nicely surmised 👏
How the fuck else are we gonna complain and get drama then? You mean to just let them play it out like how they agreed beforehand?
Kramnik is involved, and you're worried that there won't be enough drama?
> No one held a gun to their heads Why is this shit argument always brought up as if that's the gold standard?
Holding a gun to their heads is only needed for bullet chess
Yea it's wild. And in this case there was even the metaphorical gun of the match getting called off if Kramniks unreasonable demands weren't met, something he even suggested during the shit show yesterday. But I guess it has to be a real fucking Dessert Eagle or something involved for it to be unfair.
It pretty much is like that. At least metaphorically. If Jospem doesn't give in to Kramnik's demand it will just give Kramnik ammunition and excuses to keep damaging Jospem's reputation.
Kramnik's opinion is dogshit though. He's not a respected figure anymore due to his lunatic theories, so who cares what he's saying. Its like a random homeless person on the street yelling, you can just ignore them.
Kramnik still has a large following of supporters that are plenty happy to take him at his word that specific players are cheating without any real evidence. Obviously most people can tell that Kramnik is being completely unreasonable, but he's still generating a lot of hate and harassment towards these players.
Kramnik has a large following of random twitch viewers who listen to him. So what? Their opinions don’t matter anymore than Kramniks. What respected chess figures give Kramniks opinion any weight? Can we name a single figure? If not, why does his opinion matter?
The fact Kramnik thinks pre moving is cheating — tells me he fundamentally does not understand online chess. It’s a different game with different rules… and he thinks OTB and online are the same. They are not. The pieces move the same… that’s about it. Every other rule is different than OTB, and he should understand that and just his strategy. He’s just too old to want to change… and it shows.
You don't even need to know anything about chess to understand this. This experiment has no scientific merit anyway. But if it's going to have even any superficial claim of merit, you have to recreate the same conditions in the experiment. Any science undergraduate in any discipline will tell you that you cannot change any of the conditions in any such study, unless you're specifically testing for differences related to that condition. In fact, I would say even a 14 year-old studying science at high school knows this. As soon as you deliberately change the conditions when making a comparison between two data sets, it completely invalidates any data or conclusions drawn. Unless, as mentioned, you are specifically testing for that condition, which they are not. Kramnik goes on and on and on about fucking statistics, as if he's a scientist, and then insists on doing something that removes absolutely all merit from this experiment, and which runs completely contrary to fundamental principles in such studies. That's before you take the chess aspect into consideration. Everyone who has played chess at 1000 level or above knows that 3+1 and 3+2 are fundamentally different (that's insulting to under-1000 players, most of whom are probably fully aware of this). It's not merely that you get more time, you can far more readily play on the increment. That is indeed precisely why they have two-second increments OTB - to make it feasible to play on the increment. Very fast, skilful, tactical players can play online on a one-second increment, although it is still difficult. Kramnik cannot do this! We know this; we've seen him try! You actually couldn't make it up. Let's do this big 'experiment', let's cite all of these fucking nonsense statistics, as if it's scientific, let's go through all this rigmarole with computers and reinstalling Windows...oh, and by the way, let's do something that utterly invalidates the whole thing.
> As soon as you deliberately change the conditions when making a comparison between two data sets, it completely invalidates any data or conclusions drawn. Do you actually believe this?
It's not a case of believing it. If you're testing for something, you don't deliberately change the testing conditions from the scenario that you're comparing it with, unless you are testing the condition that you alter itself. That's how studies work. You can't always guarantee that you're creating uniform conditions for numerous reasons. But you don't deliberately change one of the most fundamental variables in an experiment, test or study, if you want to generate credible results. Unless, as I say, you're testing that condition itself. In this scenario, they would have to be testing the difference between 3+1 and 3+2 online, which they are not. What they are testing is whether Jospem can perform as well against Kramnik, while in controlled conditions, to see whether he may have cheated in TT. Any scientist, in any discipline, or indeed anyone studying science will tell you, that you therefore have to, as faithfully as possible, recreate the conditions that exist in TT. That is what happens in any meaningful study or experiment. Fundamentally changing the experimental conditions through your own intervention is precisely what any credible researcher goes to great lengths to avoid. In fact, virtually any published scientific paper will have a lengthy section acknowledging all of the factors that could have influenced the results, many of which are beyond the control of the researchers. But you don't deliberately introduce your own! If you wrote a paper on this experiment, you would have to say: we deliberately changed the time control, which invalidated all of the results, because we failed to create the same conditions as the data set that we were comparing with, even though we could have easily used the same time control.
Lmao. Matching the conditions as closely as possible would have been better, though
I find it disgusting how Kramnik constantly gets to change the rules.
Isnt there a difference between 2s increment vs 2 second delay? 2s increment allows you to gain time, but I feel like it is there just to not have you flag Delay never gives you time, but doesnt run down your clock before the 2s
"Experiment"?
Honestly it doesn't matter, because this experiment is just for the lols. It isn't going to change the minds of anyone on either side.
It would have been a easier solution that kramnik himself supervise Jose while playing a TT...
What's the issue? I don't understand
TT should be 3+2 in the first place...It just that time controls are getting faster and faster and faster. Who knows when this stops...
In stockfish versus stockfish, any level, 3 + 2 always ends in a tie.
Hope Levy can ask both to play 4 extra 3+1 games more for some extra cash. They are all there, just play few more for statistics and validation. no loss here.
Karmanik has no interest in actually having this match validate anything except for his own ridiculous claims. Why would he agree to something that makes him look even more wrong.
Which is weird because with the way the match is set up Kramnik is the only one who can lose. If Jospem doesn't crush him tomorrow it can be explained by them playing 3+2 instead of 3+1 where Jospem excels. And if Jospem does crush him despite a 2 second increment then Kramnik's crusade against online specialists will be in tatters.
God, do I enjoy all those vultures crying and coping! Go Vlad!
Not really. Kramnik accused jospem of cheating in titled Tuesdays which is 3+1. But then goes goes on to insist that he would only play 3+2 against jospem because his mouse skills are shit. This entire thing was a farce from the beginning.
Right. If they played 3+1 and Jospem lost, you would be applauding Kramnik, and calling Jospem a cheater. /s 1. Jospem accepted those time controls. 2. 99% of you don't care about facts, or chess at all - you are just rooting or hating Kramnik Most of what Kramnik says is either bad, or stated the very wrong way - but good part of his claims is true. I have no respect for people that just pick side, and disregard everything that counters their agenda (yesterday I saw a post "But something was really wrong with timer on Kramnik's screen" (that's full post), and that post received 50 downvotes - that's absolutely insane, flat-earther level)
The only one who is picking sides is you mate. Kramnik accuses jospem of cheating in 3+1 format. If kramnik was so sure that jospem was cheating then he should have played him in 3+1 format. This is common sense. Instead kramnik insisted he would ONLY play 3+2. which is a completely different game. Yes. Jospem agreed BECAUSE KRAMNIK wouldn't play otherwise. 🤷🤷
Just like I said. Conjuring, and completely out of touch with reality. Good bye!
You sound quite Trumpian. Ultimate projection.
And it's really annoying that some people would "point out" that Jospem's performance in this event is not on par with his past TT performance.
Yes, Jospem cant find machine-alike sequences and his opening prep is subpar because of increment difference. For sure. Endgames - no dispute here, Kramnik is a few classes above, he can only salvage by flagging
Subpar, machine, openings and endgames but Jospem just destroyed him in the last two otb games of today with all conditions Kramnik wanted yet he still has to deal with cheating insinuations coming from who's actually just a paranoic exchampion and the eternal second Nepo plus their entourage. The man, by the way, involved in the cheating scandal against Topalov, at the time I thought that was absurd but today I'm not so sure if Kramnik cheated back then. What a way to ruin your legacy as WC. Not so smart off the board I guess.
Go back to twitter Vlad
What machine-alike sequences are you talking about? How do you come to the conclusion that the opening prep is subpar?