Yep. As well as any number of other things he does. Guy is the one doing worst in his friend group and he's not even trying to do any form of self-improvement.
To the point where Scott's shadow doppelganger is legitimately just a really nice, chill guy everyone likes.
Scott Pilgrim is legitimately a fantastic litmus test for maturity. A boy thinks Scott Pilgrim is cool. He's got a band! He does what he wants! A man thinks he's a loser. Because bro, how old are you? A fucking ***high schooler***? And you didn't even have the guts to dump her properly?
The comic handles the themes a lot more directly, makes it almost impossible to stay on Scott's side by the third act and *forces* him to improve.
Strongly recommended to anybody that hasn't read it.
If you're in America sure. In my corner of the world it's just a bit weird. He was a loser because he was immature and was clinging to his youth and slowly learning to mature and move on with his life, very, very slowly.
Depends how you look at it. I would certainly find it weird, but I wouldn't intervene cause that's completely legal in my country (And most of the world including canada where the story takes place.). It certainly adds to how much of a loser he is but it isn't THE reason he's a loser.
Kite Man (Hell yeah), Great Lakes Avengers, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Nextwave... Shit pretty much the entirety of [Hitman's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(DC_Comics\)) run is filled with them, from Dogwelder to Bueno Excellente, who I am forever disappointed is not a flair here... Though I understand why.
And don't even get me started on like 80% of the protagonists Nobuyuki Fukumoto has written.
Calling him a loser is a bit reductive (but not incorrect). He is a hero who refused to answer the call. He is called to greatness but just wants to live a normal life.
Could you really call him a loser if all everyone else wanted to do was stop thinking? At that point in the story, seems to me that the biggest losers was the rest of the world.
I haven't seen the rebirth films BTW.
Feels like everyone's opinion of Shinji is based solely on End of Evangelion (where our dude is extra depressed because he was forced to kill the only person who ever loved him) and memes. For most of the run he gets in the robot just fine, hell he *loves* getting in the robot after getting the hang of it, that's where everyone praises him!
That, and for the longest time people judged it like it was a shonen series. Of course Shinji looks like a loser compared to Goku or any other shonen hero, it’s dumb to even compare them. Didn’t stop people from doing it or continuing to do it tho.
Eh, fair enough. I think he's pretty mix mix. I really enjoyed Jupiter's Legacy, The Ambassador's, Kick-Ass and Red Son. Obviously they're not great but I really enjoyed reading them. Also Frank Quietly and John Romita Jr do really good jobs on these.
Insane statement to stand by, there are many good stories about losers. Failure and being a loser is like the central theme of the show The Venture Bros and it has much better writing than Kick-Ass. Even in comics there are lots of great loser characters. I get that you just read a story and you're excited about it but saying "no one has ever done this and I stand by that" is just a wildly delusional position to take.
The core characters aside from Samson are still losers. I don't think Doc Venture quite got out from the shadow of his father and still profits from the legacy by the end of the series rather than building his own. Hank and Dean are still trying to get their own independence as well. They still develop and grow, though. Both Hank and Dean have become more independent, but it still makes me wonder if they'll be more successful in their own life.
Hmm— I only ever really check this sub — so Is he the one who made Spider-Man call captain America a poo poo head or the guy who made thanos be defeated by a ping pong ball?
Even though I'm not really a fan of Mark, I have to say that somehow these comics were very interesting, especially because they somehow foresaw the toxic nerd behavior that we would have a few years later on the Internet and in society.
imo, the movie was better, the comics were somehow even more cynical and edgy and felt like much more misery porn and the loser aspects went a bit over the top at some points
The topic is interesting, any recommendations as to what to read regarding a main character that is constantly struggling? I was thinking about getting into Moon Knight
Invincible is an obvious one, Spider-Man by Gerry Conway (just classic Spider-Man in general really, I've never seen a superhero get an ulcer from stress before), most Scott Snyder Batman books have him get his shit wrecked and characters like Daredevil and Hulk are basically always fighting against the tide.
Excellent! This is great, any specific things I should look for? I’m traveling to Seattle soon (I’m from South America) and would like to search for some specifics instead of just guessing. Thanks for your insights, greatly appreciated!
You’re amazing, thanks for sharing. If you have any other recommendations I’m bound to spend many days inside of comic book stores just browsing so they’d be welcome!
I'd advise to try and find paperbacks because 1. I can't for the life of me remember single issue numbers; and 2. Shit's just easier to find.
I'll throw in some more recommendations because I'm not being very helpful anyways:
_Doug Moench's Moon Knight (1986 OG MK, starts out a little rocky but it gets fantastic later on)
_Warren Ellis' Moon Knight (2014, only 6 issues but it's gold, the trade is called From The Dead I think)
_Batman Shaman and Venom by Denny O'Neil (fuck the dates from this point forward my memory is trash)
_Batman Gothic by Grant Morrison
_Batman by Grant Morrison in general really, I know all of that is in trades.
_Frank Miller's Daredevil (both the OG run and Born Again are awesome, I don't really like Man Without Fear)
_JMS' Spider-Man (The first arc, Coming Home, is what you're looking for, the rest of the run is great until JRJR leaves and it dives straight into shit). I do remember the Issues for this one, ASM vol. 2 #30 to ASM vol. 1 #508, issue 500 is beatiful btw.
_Hulk Gray (Haven't read much Hulk, but anything by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale is awesome)
_Superman For All Seasons (more emotional and mental struggle than physical one, but we are talking about Superman after all)
And if you like TV Shows:
_Invincible (season 2 is coming soon so that's great)
_Daredevil (you probably watched this one but just in case)
_Kamen Rider Kuuga (a bit of a weird recommendation right? It's a Japanese superhero show from 2000, digital effects are horrible but it makes up for it with plenty of heart. It's a bit of a slow burn but I personally love it.)
_Trigun (the 1998 anime, it starts out goofy but it gets more intense as it goes on. There's a manga and a new adaptation from last year but the anime is my favorite one plus the entire thing is on youtube, in Japanese, English and Español Latino papaaa)
Saludos de Argentina wacho
Kamen Rider is about a broken character? No way, I’ve been fascinated by the character since I saw the Shin Kamen Rider promos. Would you recommend following it?
Not really broken, but tortured, Kuuga is really about a carefree traveller sacrificing his happiness and humanity for the sake of everyone else's, but every KR show is standalone and different from the rest and that creates a lot of variety.
The original Kamen Rider is about a man that similarly gets his happiness and humanity taken away and he fights for the sake of other people, Shin Kamen Rider carries the same themes in a tighter and more modern package.
Give them all a try, and Kamen Rider Ryuki too, it's about a dumb stubborn little shit called Shinji that is obsessed with saving *everyone* in a situation where that's basically impossible.
Daredevil had an entire run for a couple years recently where he got beat up so bad that he was having trouble dealing with street thugs.
It got to the point where Spider-Man went to him and told him to stop crimefighting because he's going to get himself killed.
>!He basically took a break and rested in jail until he got his health back.!<
>!He might have died along the way as well.!<
Check out Berserk if you like western fantasy and can handle dark topics like assault. Sometimes it can be a bit overbearing but the characters and story are great. Check out the 90s animation on YouTube and stick with it. Pretty short show then decide from there if you want to read the manga afterwards.
Man I was really surprised a few years ago when I read ultimate spiderman just how much of a fucking terrible life peter has in that series like goddamn, his life gets wrecked over and over and over and over. It's a great one. Fits your criteria well I would recommend
Plus his mom abandoning him, his dad being gunned down, he’s lost friends, his life has fallen apart more than once, and on top of all that, he’s a lawyer
I read most of it-- all of the books where Dave is kickass at least.
It was just back to back sad shit
my least favorite scene>! Involves a group sexual assault on Dave's crush; which you cant even argue is there to demonstrate how bad the Toxic mega cunts are because the rape scene happens directly after the Toxic mega cunts kill a group of children-- very clear theyre bad people already!<
>the comics were somehow even more cynical and edgy and felt like much more misery porn and the loser aspects went a bit over the top at some points
Ah yes, the Mark Millar effect.
He and Garth Ennis (The Boys) have a general disdain for superheroes. That's why their books typically end up being overly edgy with no message or themes.
They just hate superheroes.
IIRC, the movie omitted the one thing that made the book worth reading: >!The revelation that Hit-Girl's dad was financing his vigilantism with vintage comic books!<
It really tied the whole thing together.
Kind of makes me think of The Boys show as well, comics are definitely a much more over-the-top medium and the transition to the big screen definitely forces them to temper that with a much more measured approach
Indeed. I read the comics after the movies and thought there was a running joke going on which will have a funny reveal or something like it was all in his head. But, after the motherfucker literally raped and killed people, I lost all interest. Book 3 was the most terrible comic I have ever laid my eyes on.
Cynical comics aren’t bad, and this series is wildly entertaining. It plays straight the fact that this talentless kid is playing superhero in a world as dangerous as our own. God forbid he isn’t pulling kung fu moves out of his ass because he randomly decided to dress up and fight strangers.
Hell, I’m not even sure why you consider this one cynical. It’s not like he doesn’t get the bad guy in the end.
Kickass contains a lot of classic and tropey mid-00s gritty, edgy take on superheroes back when the concept was still novel. It was entertaining at the time but since the style has run its course there are more people who don't enjoy>! casual gang rape !!Fair warning though it also contains a rape.!<
yeah i didnt like the movies and i enjoyed only the first 2 volumes of the comics, i think most people find it bad cuz of how the mc is, hes very realistic, youd have to read it to understand tbh
Yeah kickass wasnt very good-- I do think what its done best is making Dave look like a loser 16 year old;
as former 16 year old loser I can hear my friends(that I've since outgrown) speaking in the characters
What? Kickass (at least volume one) was widely respected on release. It is a very good book that captures its time and place exceedingly well.
Not to mention the art is peak JRJR.
Kick Ass is one of the worst books I've ever read. Literally made me sick to read. I returned it to Barnes and Noble because I didn't even want to own it. On the plus side I bought Batman and Robin vol 1 by Morrison instead which got me into weekly comics for years and made Damian one of my all time favorite characters.
On a related note though I will say I skimmed the ending of Kick Ass 3 and it actually pulls it together into a sorta satisfying ending. It actually gets less cynical as the series goes on.
Early Spider-Man had a pretty accurate depiction of being a loser.
Peter was deeply regretful, antagonized his bully into useless fights, tried to cash in on being a hero immediately after becoming one several times; also considered robbing banks to make money but did not do so because he might get caught, sold pictures of himself to make a bunch of money, and so much more...
Early Peter was just a loveable dumbass. People forget because they lovd the Raimi films and Ultimate Comics.
Ultimate made him a gigachad. He has a cute red head who basically wanted to be his from the start, Kitty Pride, Black Cat (for a minute) and a bunch of other ladies. He also got great bro friends like Human Torch and other heroes.
A hero who gets his ass kicked in the regular? Have you ever read Spider-Man or Daredevil? Even JRJR went easier on Davey than he ever did on Matt or Peter
Spider-Man and Daredevil lose SOMETIMES, but they are not really "losers". They lose sometimes, but they also win most of the time. And sometimes their lives are portrayed as being super-humanly awful, but their lives also have a lot of high points.
Peter Parker is fucking Spider-Man. Super strength, super agility, spidey-sense, climbs walls, invented his own webshooters and swings all over Manhattan. He's a super genius. He's conventionally attractive with 2% body fat and washboard abs. He's got hundreds of friends, from superheroes to regular people. He's had a haram of beautiful girlfriends: Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, Felicia Hardy, Betty Brandt, Carlie Cooper, Cissy Ironwood, Lian Tang, Debra Whitman, Bobbi Morse, etc.
Matt Murdock is Daredevil, arguably one of the 10 best martial artists in the Marvel Universe. He's a lawyer. He's attractive. He's got loyal friends. He's got his own impressive haram of beautiful girlfriends: Elektra, Karen Page, Black Widow, Typhoid Mary, Echo, etc.
They're both guys with super powers, good looks, good health, friends, romances, and some amount of success in both super heroics and their careers.
Yeah, Spiderman loses me when Peter is supposed to be a nerdy outcast yet goes out with the most attractive women imaginable. He's still a great character but the writers practically made him a lower class Tony Stark when it comes to the ladies.
Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid On Earth by Chris Ware
American Splendor by Harvey Pekar
And if we specifically want superheroes, Section Eight from Garth Ennis’ Hitman.
I'd tend do disagree, but for the purposes of conversation--do you mean loser in the sense of not winning or loser in the sense of unpopular or not well-liked? do you mean a hero who is also a loser? Where do you think other depictions of losers fall short and why?
looking back on my post i probably shouldnt have disregarded other heroes, i know they have really good loser aspects aswell, i have just never read them so in my opinion i actually dont really believe kick ass is even a TRUE loser, i dont think its possible to actually write a good story with a genuinely TRUE loser as the mc. but from everything ive read i believe he comes the closest, while also being somewhat well written
You want a story about someone who never succeeded? I mean i don’t know why you are describing it the way you are, but there are tragic stories like that.
I would argue that new Rorschach book was that. The comic book writer who becomes the new Rorschach definitely didn’t win.
Nah, kickass comic was awful, and the main character he’s was just the worst. From what I read, he was pathetic for the sake of being pathetic. Who would want to read this humiliation fettish of a comic?💀
Don't feel discouraged by all the posts here, kick ass is fine and is a beloved comic (otherwise it wouldn't have been adapted into a movie series) there's been a kind of shift in online "nerd spaces" where certain writers or artists become public punching bags for people to circle jerk about hating because it's socially acceptable for them. Just read what you like and enjoy it. Frank Miller is another example of people not liking who they became and trying to reevaluate their absolutely monumentally classic older work and shit on it.
I think if you enjoyed this series, you enjoyed it. "Wannabe hero down on his luck" is very much the theme in this.
I felt the need to write this because of reading the comments.
I would suggest you broaden your reading habits. I'll suggest Peter Bagge's "Hate" and the entire career of Robert Crumb as only the 2 most immediate contradictions of your premise specifically in the context of comic books.
I'm not contending that you are difficult to understand. It's a matter of principle. This is a literature subreddit. Correct grammar is respected here. Careless grammar isn't.
principle? were talking on a comment section of a comic book subreddit, just because you go out of your way to make your REDDIT comments have correct grammar doesnt mean i have to, is it a rule? i could understand not respecting someone for having unintelligible writing but mine is perfectly legible, not asking for your respect either way, just voicing my opinions
It's not hard to type correctly. It takes a modicum of effort. Why should anyone expend the small amount of effort required to engage with your post when you won't even use an apostrophe? It makes your opinions seem as if they were voiced by a toddler, and no one cares what toddlers have to say.
Bye now, you have a nice day.
This is one of those few adaptions where the movie is just way superior. Mark Miller just reads like nothing but edgy and juvenile. The movie actually had heart and the action was super slick too. It really reminds me of the best parts of high school. I hated the sequel though, very mean spirited and sloppy in comparison.
I have always felt that Millar has a very mean and bad faith-y writing style. He's similar to Garth Ennis in the way that they always fail to properly deconstruct the superhero genre, ending up with a mediocre product who's final message is "Aren't superheroes stupid? Imagine how much of a loser you must be to like them in the first place!"
In relating this to Kick-Ass, it obviously spoofs the idea of the young vigilante, making it realistic by properly showing not only how fragile the human body is but also how at risk and weak the general person is. But even then they fail to say anything with it beyond their initial critique, which usually just re-states the silliness of comics.
I read kickass when I was starting to get into comics. I liked it and still think it’s one of jrjr’s best pieces of art work. I’ve hate everything else jr has done
A good loser character? Absolutely.
The ONLY good loser character? Absolutely not. There's literally hundreds if not thousands of great loser characters.
I may have been with you had you left it at "Kick-ass is *one of the best* depictions of a loser," but the suggestion that he's the *only* good depiction of a loser ever written is absolutely a ludicrous thing to claim.
You shouldn't stand by something that is just undeniably wrong, as so many absolute statements end being. I normally wouldn't do this, but you haven't read enough.
I remember reading a manga where the Hero is a complete and utterly terrible character (went far as leaving behind his party memeber) and the real hero was kicked out of the party.
[What about Charlie Brown?](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6f/fa/7e/6ffa7ed5522b14fa1af3f902e5def9e2.png)
He’s the greatest loser in all of fiction
Poor Chuck.
He's a good man.
An innocent man
If you think this is the only (or even best) well written loser character my only advice would be to implore you to read more.
**Not so long ago...** **In the mysterious land...** **Of Toronto, Canada...** **Scott Pilgrim was dating a high schooler.**
The best loser
If gettin Mary Elizabeth Winstead makes you a loser then i dont wanna be cool
i think the dating a high schooler part makes him a loser, regardless of who else he dates
Yep. As well as any number of other things he does. Guy is the one doing worst in his friend group and he's not even trying to do any form of self-improvement. To the point where Scott's shadow doppelganger is legitimately just a really nice, chill guy everyone likes. Scott Pilgrim is legitimately a fantastic litmus test for maturity. A boy thinks Scott Pilgrim is cool. He's got a band! He does what he wants! A man thinks he's a loser. Because bro, how old are you? A fucking ***high schooler***? And you didn't even have the guts to dump her properly?
The comic handles the themes a lot more directly, makes it almost impossible to stay on Scott's side by the third act and *forces* him to improve. Strongly recommended to anybody that hasn't read it.
Oh was he not in highschool too? I havent watched the movie in a loong time, i dont remember
Nope. Scott's 22.
I ain't know that...
The books also make it more abundantly clear that yes, Scott sucks and is a loser.
If you're in America sure. In my corner of the world it's just a bit weird. He was a loser because he was immature and was clinging to his youth and slowly learning to mature and move on with his life, very, very slowly.
i think a 23yo dating a 17yo makes you a loser in any part of the world
Depends how you look at it. I would certainly find it weird, but I wouldn't intervene cause that's completely legal in my country (And most of the world including canada where the story takes place.). It certainly adds to how much of a loser he is but it isn't THE reason he's a loser.
I’m scared of what parts of the world where dating a high schooler at 22 doesn’t make you a loser.
Fun fact - the original ending had them not getting together. And I think it's actually better for the story if they don't.
For real
Kite Man (Hell yeah), Great Lakes Avengers, Animal Man, Doom Patrol, Nextwave... Shit pretty much the entirety of [Hitman's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitman_(DC_Comics\)) run is filled with them, from Dogwelder to Bueno Excellente, who I am forever disappointed is not a flair here... Though I understand why. And don't even get me started on like 80% of the protagonists Nobuyuki Fukumoto has written.
Bueno. ^heh ^heh ^heh ***Excelente.***
Shinji get in the robot Edit: And stop masturbating over Rey's body while she's unconscious in a hospital bed
That was Asuka, but yeah, still stands
Is shinji a loser? Honestly with the amount of shit he goes through he’s basically a victim
Both can be true. You can be a loser and a victim
Representation matters 🥲
The rare loseim.
“Influencer”
He definitely seems to regard himself as a loser more than as a victim.
Calling him a loser is a bit reductive (but not incorrect). He is a hero who refused to answer the call. He is called to greatness but just wants to live a normal life.
He’s a coward and a sneak! The lowest of the low!
Could you really call him a loser if all everyone else wanted to do was stop thinking? At that point in the story, seems to me that the biggest losers was the rest of the world. I haven't seen the rebirth films BTW.
[Soulja Boy Tell-Um](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5WoHi7Oyiw)
That was Asuka
Feels like everyone's opinion of Shinji is based solely on End of Evangelion (where our dude is extra depressed because he was forced to kill the only person who ever loved him) and memes. For most of the run he gets in the robot just fine, hell he *loves* getting in the robot after getting the hang of it, that's where everyone praises him!
That, and for the longest time people judged it like it was a shonen series. Of course Shinji looks like a loser compared to Goku or any other shonen hero, it’s dumb to even compare them. Didn’t stop people from doing it or continuing to do it tho.
I agree. And to stay away from Mark Millar in general. Man is as bad as Garth Ennis, and I say that as an Irish man living in Scotland.
Eh, fair enough. I think he's pretty mix mix. I really enjoyed Jupiter's Legacy, The Ambassador's, Kick-Ass and Red Son. Obviously they're not great but I really enjoyed reading them. Also Frank Quietly and John Romita Jr do really good jobs on these.
I like SuperCrooks the most.
No, that guy obviously decreed that we are to stay away so as much as you might think you have enjoyed something Millar has written, you are wrong.
Ah, of course. Truly you are a scholar.
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Mark Millar is a hack. It is known.
I have it on good authority that Mark Millar licks goats.
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I don't think I would at any point describe Mark on the series as a loser.
Insane statement to stand by, there are many good stories about losers. Failure and being a loser is like the central theme of the show The Venture Bros and it has much better writing than Kick-Ass. Even in comics there are lots of great loser characters. I get that you just read a story and you're excited about it but saying "no one has ever done this and I stand by that" is just a wildly delusional position to take.
Who are the losers on Ventures bros? They all seem to do “ok” enough as the seasons progress.
They grow as the series progresses to be fair. But for about 2/3 of the series, they were all losers.
The core characters aside from Samson are still losers. I don't think Doc Venture quite got out from the shadow of his father and still profits from the legacy by the end of the series rather than building his own. Hank and Dean are still trying to get their own independence as well. They still develop and grow, though. Both Hank and Dean have become more independent, but it still makes me wonder if they'll be more successful in their own life.
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> and ill stand by that. And by that, I mean the exact opposite.
You *can* edit things on Reddit.
This is a comicbooks subreddit, what were you expecting lmao
Hyperbole is hard to get across in text. Use caps or eloooongate your words to stress the point. That or use the dumb ass /s haha
there's some Dan Clowes comics out there that may change your mind
This poster has never even heard of alternative comics. He would do well in *Pussey!*
First thing I thought was "what about Ware and Clowes ??"
Hmm— I only ever really check this sub — so Is he the one who made Spider-Man call captain America a poo poo head or the guy who made thanos be defeated by a ping pong ball?
Even though I'm not really a fan of Mark, I have to say that somehow these comics were very interesting, especially because they somehow foresaw the toxic nerd behavior that we would have a few years later on the Internet and in society.
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That is also why I don't like his writing style.
Wasn’t there a rumor that all his best ideas were originally from Morrison?
Okay, but it's still not a good book tho
For the curiosity of it since the conversation sparked my interest. What makes it bad? I kinda enjoyed the movies, are they very different?
imo, the movie was better, the comics were somehow even more cynical and edgy and felt like much more misery porn and the loser aspects went a bit over the top at some points
The topic is interesting, any recommendations as to what to read regarding a main character that is constantly struggling? I was thinking about getting into Moon Knight
Invincible is an obvious one, Spider-Man by Gerry Conway (just classic Spider-Man in general really, I've never seen a superhero get an ulcer from stress before), most Scott Snyder Batman books have him get his shit wrecked and characters like Daredevil and Hulk are basically always fighting against the tide.
Excellent! This is great, any specific things I should look for? I’m traveling to Seattle soon (I’m from South America) and would like to search for some specifics instead of just guessing. Thanks for your insights, greatly appreciated!
DD is a good one, start with at least Bendis run and follow it up with Waid for a solid resolution
You’re amazing, thanks for sharing. If you have any other recommendations I’m bound to spend many days inside of comic book stores just browsing so they’d be welcome!
Sure thing, let me get home and go through my TPB’s at least, and I’ll definitely bring some more…immortal Hulk is another great title
I'd advise to try and find paperbacks because 1. I can't for the life of me remember single issue numbers; and 2. Shit's just easier to find. I'll throw in some more recommendations because I'm not being very helpful anyways: _Doug Moench's Moon Knight (1986 OG MK, starts out a little rocky but it gets fantastic later on) _Warren Ellis' Moon Knight (2014, only 6 issues but it's gold, the trade is called From The Dead I think) _Batman Shaman and Venom by Denny O'Neil (fuck the dates from this point forward my memory is trash) _Batman Gothic by Grant Morrison _Batman by Grant Morrison in general really, I know all of that is in trades. _Frank Miller's Daredevil (both the OG run and Born Again are awesome, I don't really like Man Without Fear) _JMS' Spider-Man (The first arc, Coming Home, is what you're looking for, the rest of the run is great until JRJR leaves and it dives straight into shit). I do remember the Issues for this one, ASM vol. 2 #30 to ASM vol. 1 #508, issue 500 is beatiful btw. _Hulk Gray (Haven't read much Hulk, but anything by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale is awesome) _Superman For All Seasons (more emotional and mental struggle than physical one, but we are talking about Superman after all) And if you like TV Shows: _Invincible (season 2 is coming soon so that's great) _Daredevil (you probably watched this one but just in case) _Kamen Rider Kuuga (a bit of a weird recommendation right? It's a Japanese superhero show from 2000, digital effects are horrible but it makes up for it with plenty of heart. It's a bit of a slow burn but I personally love it.) _Trigun (the 1998 anime, it starts out goofy but it gets more intense as it goes on. There's a manga and a new adaptation from last year but the anime is my favorite one plus the entire thing is on youtube, in Japanese, English and Español Latino papaaa) Saludos de Argentina wacho
Also the first two Kamen Rider episodes are on youtube if you wanna try that
Kamen Rider is about a broken character? No way, I’ve been fascinated by the character since I saw the Shin Kamen Rider promos. Would you recommend following it?
Not really broken, but tortured, Kuuga is really about a carefree traveller sacrificing his happiness and humanity for the sake of everyone else's, but every KR show is standalone and different from the rest and that creates a lot of variety. The original Kamen Rider is about a man that similarly gets his happiness and humanity taken away and he fights for the sake of other people, Shin Kamen Rider carries the same themes in a tighter and more modern package. Give them all a try, and Kamen Rider Ryuki too, it's about a dumb stubborn little shit called Shinji that is obsessed with saving *everyone* in a situation where that's basically impossible.
The first Kamen Rider series is on Tubi.
Batman: The Cult and Wanted
Daredevil had an entire run for a couple years recently where he got beat up so bad that he was having trouble dealing with street thugs. It got to the point where Spider-Man went to him and told him to stop crimefighting because he's going to get himself killed. >!He basically took a break and rested in jail until he got his health back.!< >!He might have died along the way as well.!<
Check out Berserk if you like western fantasy and can handle dark topics like assault. Sometimes it can be a bit overbearing but the characters and story are great. Check out the 90s animation on YouTube and stick with it. Pretty short show then decide from there if you want to read the manga afterwards.
Man I was really surprised a few years ago when I read ultimate spiderman just how much of a fucking terrible life peter has in that series like goddamn, his life gets wrecked over and over and over and over. It's a great one. Fits your criteria well I would recommend
Depends what kind of struggling you’re looking for, but Daredevil’s usually pretty miserable
Catholic angst >!combined with a serial killer that likes killing his girlfriends !
Plus his mom abandoning him, his dad being gunned down, he’s lost friends, his life has fallen apart more than once, and on top of all that, he’s a lawyer
Moon Knight has been SO good lately (ignore the Age of Khonshu thing).
I read most of it-- all of the books where Dave is kickass at least. It was just back to back sad shit my least favorite scene>! Involves a group sexual assault on Dave's crush; which you cant even argue is there to demonstrate how bad the Toxic mega cunts are because the rape scene happens directly after the Toxic mega cunts kill a group of children-- very clear theyre bad people already!<
>the comics were somehow even more cynical and edgy and felt like much more misery porn and the loser aspects went a bit over the top at some points Ah yes, the Mark Millar effect. He and Garth Ennis (The Boys) have a general disdain for superheroes. That's why their books typically end up being overly edgy with no message or themes. They just hate superheroes.
I enjoyed it for the most part but have the same criticism. The ending is needlessly cruel and over the top haha
IIRC, the movie omitted the one thing that made the book worth reading: >!The revelation that Hit-Girl's dad was financing his vigilantism with vintage comic books!< It really tied the whole thing together.
Kind of makes me think of The Boys show as well, comics are definitely a much more over-the-top medium and the transition to the big screen definitely forces them to temper that with a much more measured approach
Indeed. I read the comics after the movies and thought there was a running joke going on which will have a funny reveal or something like it was all in his head. But, after the motherfucker literally raped and killed people, I lost all interest. Book 3 was the most terrible comic I have ever laid my eyes on.
Cynical comics aren’t bad, and this series is wildly entertaining. It plays straight the fact that this talentless kid is playing superhero in a world as dangerous as our own. God forbid he isn’t pulling kung fu moves out of his ass because he randomly decided to dress up and fight strangers. Hell, I’m not even sure why you consider this one cynical. It’s not like he doesn’t get the bad guy in the end.
It's Millar, that's pretty much all he's capable of
Kickass contains a lot of classic and tropey mid-00s gritty, edgy take on superheroes back when the concept was still novel. It was entertaining at the time but since the style has run its course there are more people who don't enjoy>! casual gang rape !!Fair warning though it also contains a rape.!<
I agree. Not my particular interest. I did enjoy the movie Super since I’m a fan of Rainn Wilson’s acting.
There is a big difference in the movie. I actually kinda like the movie. But the actual comics is just mean spirited trash.
That doesn’t sound good. Why read for further demoralizing!
yeah i didnt like the movies and i enjoyed only the first 2 volumes of the comics, i think most people find it bad cuz of how the mc is, hes very realistic, youd have to read it to understand tbh
I think most people responding have read it and understand it— probably better than you. Which is why so many people hate the book.
Yeah kickass wasnt very good-- I do think what its done best is making Dave look like a loser 16 year old; as former 16 year old loser I can hear my friends(that I've since outgrown) speaking in the characters
Totally disagree and I’m pretty sure the popular opinion is that it’s awesome, at least the first Volume Money agreed as well with this opinion
What? Kickass (at least volume one) was widely respected on release. It is a very good book that captures its time and place exceedingly well. Not to mention the art is peak JRJR.
Yeah remember that book getting passed around in college and everyone loving it. Great book
Seriously it feels like I’m in an alternate universe. It’s a highly respected book that got great reviews.
Kick Ass was published between 2008-2014. People's opinions can change over time.
Yeah and the first volume is still solid. Great art, great writing - it does what it does well.
Kick Ass is one of the worst books I've ever read. Literally made me sick to read. I returned it to Barnes and Noble because I didn't even want to own it. On the plus side I bought Batman and Robin vol 1 by Morrison instead which got me into weekly comics for years and made Damian one of my all time favorite characters. On a related note though I will say I skimmed the ending of Kick Ass 3 and it actually pulls it together into a sorta satisfying ending. It actually gets less cynical as the series goes on.
If you think this is the only (or even best) well written loser character my only advice would be to implore you to read more.
Early Spider-Man had a pretty accurate depiction of being a loser. Peter was deeply regretful, antagonized his bully into useless fights, tried to cash in on being a hero immediately after becoming one several times; also considered robbing banks to make money but did not do so because he might get caught, sold pictures of himself to make a bunch of money, and so much more... Early Peter was just a loveable dumbass. People forget because they lovd the Raimi films and Ultimate Comics. Ultimate made him a gigachad. He has a cute red head who basically wanted to be his from the start, Kitty Pride, Black Cat (for a minute) and a bunch of other ladies. He also got great bro friends like Human Torch and other heroes.
A hero who gets his ass kicked in the regular? Have you ever read Spider-Man or Daredevil? Even JRJR went easier on Davey than he ever did on Matt or Peter
Spider-Man and Daredevil lose SOMETIMES, but they are not really "losers". They lose sometimes, but they also win most of the time. And sometimes their lives are portrayed as being super-humanly awful, but their lives also have a lot of high points. Peter Parker is fucking Spider-Man. Super strength, super agility, spidey-sense, climbs walls, invented his own webshooters and swings all over Manhattan. He's a super genius. He's conventionally attractive with 2% body fat and washboard abs. He's got hundreds of friends, from superheroes to regular people. He's had a haram of beautiful girlfriends: Mary Jane Watson, Gwen Stacy, Felicia Hardy, Betty Brandt, Carlie Cooper, Cissy Ironwood, Lian Tang, Debra Whitman, Bobbi Morse, etc. Matt Murdock is Daredevil, arguably one of the 10 best martial artists in the Marvel Universe. He's a lawyer. He's attractive. He's got loyal friends. He's got his own impressive haram of beautiful girlfriends: Elektra, Karen Page, Black Widow, Typhoid Mary, Echo, etc. They're both guys with super powers, good looks, good health, friends, romances, and some amount of success in both super heroics and their careers.
Yeah, Spiderman loses me when Peter is supposed to be a nerdy outcast yet goes out with the most attractive women imaginable. He's still a great character but the writers practically made him a lower class Tony Stark when it comes to the ladies.
He kinda stopped being a nerdy outcast in the first 10 issues of the comic.
Jimmy Corrigan: The Smartest Kid On Earth by Chris Ware American Splendor by Harvey Pekar And if we specifically want superheroes, Section Eight from Garth Ennis’ Hitman.
I'd tend do disagree, but for the purposes of conversation--do you mean loser in the sense of not winning or loser in the sense of unpopular or not well-liked? do you mean a hero who is also a loser? Where do you think other depictions of losers fall short and why?
looking back on my post i probably shouldnt have disregarded other heroes, i know they have really good loser aspects aswell, i have just never read them so in my opinion i actually dont really believe kick ass is even a TRUE loser, i dont think its possible to actually write a good story with a genuinely TRUE loser as the mc. but from everything ive read i believe he comes the closest, while also being somewhat well written
I’m lost because I don’t know what you mean by True Loser?
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You want a story about someone who never succeeded? I mean i don’t know why you are describing it the way you are, but there are tragic stories like that. I would argue that new Rorschach book was that. The comic book writer who becomes the new Rorschach definitely didn’t win.
gawd I fucking hate Mark Millar's writing so much. He's just the worst, most adolescent edgelord in mainstream comics
idk the mc wasnt that edgy, but i cant say the same for the other characters
"More like Ass-Kick, ha ha."
I prefer the writing of the many losers in Love and Rockets.
Nah, kickass comic was awful, and the main character he’s was just the worst. From what I read, he was pathetic for the sake of being pathetic. Who would want to read this humiliation fettish of a comic?💀
It was such a terrible book. Just Mark Millar trying to be edgy again.
naw man, idk how far you read into it but give the full volume 1 a shot, i would say him being pathetic is his best quality
I read kickass 1 and 2, was not amused💀
well we all have our own tastes i guess
Don't feel discouraged by all the posts here, kick ass is fine and is a beloved comic (otherwise it wouldn't have been adapted into a movie series) there's been a kind of shift in online "nerd spaces" where certain writers or artists become public punching bags for people to circle jerk about hating because it's socially acceptable for them. Just read what you like and enjoy it. Frank Miller is another example of people not liking who they became and trying to reevaluate their absolutely monumentally classic older work and shit on it.
I think if you enjoyed this series, you enjoyed it. "Wannabe hero down on his luck" is very much the theme in this. I felt the need to write this because of reading the comments.
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Mark Grayson (Invincible) also gets beaten in a fight regularly.
It’s pretty much like the universe took his *nom de guerre* “Invincible” as a challenge. (Edit: added missing word)
WHAT
Yeah, especially in the animated series. Mark is noticeably more clumsy and fumbling around in the Amazon adaptation than he is in the comic book.
Is this Romita Jr. art?
You're missing The Boys bud
Please read a 3rd comic
Comic in my opinion was better than the movie. The kids go go powder.
But isn't Red Mist the big loser in Kick-Ass?
Too bad they didn't also make Big Daddy a massive loser in the movies, like he was in the comics.
You haven’t read very much, huh
I would suggest you broaden your reading habits. I'll suggest Peter Bagge's "Hate" and the entire career of Robert Crumb as only the 2 most immediate contradictions of your premise specifically in the context of comic books.
It's a bad book and Millar is a terrible writer.
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reddit is the only app ive ever been on to care so much about correct grammar
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This ain't an academic journal. You understood them. This is social media. Get off your high horse
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I concede. Your superior grammar and sentence structure has truly bested me in this battle of wits
Hold on, brother. You missed a period at the end of your sentence there. We can’t read what you were saying without it. My brain is stuck buffering!
Dude this is a discussion post on Reddit not a grammar symposium
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King of memes.
Sick one dude
Well, he's got paragraphs and sentences going for him, so he's better than many on Reddit, I guess.
it aint that deep
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This is literally a sub dedicated to literature. Not the best place to abandon grammar.
i didnt, if you can read what im saying correctly and understand what im saying then it shouldnt be a problem correct?
I'm not contending that you are difficult to understand. It's a matter of principle. This is a literature subreddit. Correct grammar is respected here. Careless grammar isn't.
principle? were talking on a comment section of a comic book subreddit, just because you go out of your way to make your REDDIT comments have correct grammar doesnt mean i have to, is it a rule? i could understand not respecting someone for having unintelligible writing but mine is perfectly legible, not asking for your respect either way, just voicing my opinions
It's not hard to type correctly. It takes a modicum of effort. Why should anyone expend the small amount of effort required to engage with your post when you won't even use an apostrophe? It makes your opinions seem as if they were voiced by a toddler, and no one cares what toddlers have to say. Bye now, you have a nice day.
“no one cares what toddlers have to say” hmm… youre an odd one
Go read Billy Corrigan and you'll see real losing
It seems that i'm with the few people who liked kick ass
Joe Matt's The Poor Bastard would like a word with you.
This makes me not want to read this comic, ever.
This is one of those few adaptions where the movie is just way superior. Mark Miller just reads like nothing but edgy and juvenile. The movie actually had heart and the action was super slick too. It really reminds me of the best parts of high school. I hated the sequel though, very mean spirited and sloppy in comparison.
Sounds like you need to read more.
ALOT MORE
Y’all leave this kid alone I liked this book back in the day too. He will read better stories in time
I fail to see the appeal
Agree except for only
I have always felt that Millar has a very mean and bad faith-y writing style. He's similar to Garth Ennis in the way that they always fail to properly deconstruct the superhero genre, ending up with a mediocre product who's final message is "Aren't superheroes stupid? Imagine how much of a loser you must be to like them in the first place!" In relating this to Kick-Ass, it obviously spoofs the idea of the young vigilante, making it realistic by properly showing not only how fragile the human body is but also how at risk and weak the general person is. But even then they fail to say anything with it beyond their initial critique, which usually just re-states the silliness of comics.
Just watch the movies the comic is horrible
Scott Pilgrim was also a loser but at least the Kickass comic is actually good lol
This is one of the worst takes I've seen on this sub.
OP screaming "I've only ever read one book!" into the universe.
I read kickass when I was starting to get into comics. I liked it and still think it’s one of jrjr’s best pieces of art work. I’ve hate everything else jr has done
I honestly prefer the film version of Kick Ass, largely because it doesn't have Millar's bad edgelord writing.
Hey man if that’s what you think reality is then that your perception of reality
A good loser character? Absolutely. The ONLY good loser character? Absolutely not. There's literally hundreds if not thousands of great loser characters.
I may have been with you had you left it at "Kick-ass is *one of the best* depictions of a loser," but the suggestion that he's the *only* good depiction of a loser ever written is absolutely a ludicrous thing to claim.
You shouldn't stand by something that is just undeniably wrong, as so many absolute statements end being. I normally wouldn't do this, but you haven't read enough.
Kite Man
People who like Mark Millar books arent older than 25.
Vagabond tbh
I remember reading a manga where the Hero is a complete and utterly terrible character (went far as leaving behind his party memeber) and the real hero was kicked out of the party.
It could never be Saitama from OPM, that's for sure.