Sinn Féin play both sides of most issues.
If the Bill passes they can take credit by saying they support it.
If the media criticises it for going too far or not far enough they'll say "we wanted a different Bill."
Not really, there are basically two ways to read their view:
The naive but technical way: they have multiple issues with the bill, one of which is that they think the protected characteristics should be expanded, but that's compatible with having reservations about other aspects, like the allegedly vague definition of hate, or the powers granted to the authorities, etc.
The cynical but probably more accurate reading: their issue with the bill is that it has become much more unpopular among people they want to vote for them than (they believed) it was when they originally supported it.
Of the main parties the people I’ve met who’ve been the most opposed to migrants have all been SF voters so I have no clue what SF is doing here. Are they that removed from their base ?
They don't know what their base is as it's constantly shifting.
There's a core but that's pretty small.
Then there's a significant cohort who will vote for them as agents of change and want to give them a spell in government. But if they fuck up in government and don't deliver change they'll lose those voters. Their problem, and their brain trust knows it, is that they can't possibly deliver on a lot of their policies as they're little more than slogans.
There’s no party loyalty like in the pst except amongst the hardliners so SF and other populist parties twist themselves in knots trying to be all things to all people. Problem is economic solidarity is no longer the main differentiator in politics because it has migrated to emotional solidarity.
It mattered to their voters. It didn't matter for the parties.
SF will happily just do the same. I would reluctantly vote them in, with the hope that they would remove many of the appointments that the other two have made and shake things up a little, but we desperately need a party that leans right, away from those three and that could contest things in government. FFG are pure dirt from their grassroots all the way through their council seats.
No, read it again. I said that 'not delivering on a lot of their policies' hasn't mattered for the other two.
i.e. Once elected, they didn't even remember what they promised.
> Are they that removed from their base ?
Yes. It's genuinely as simple as that.
There was one election cycle there about 5 years ago in the North's Parliamentary elections for Westminster where they changed all their branding to pink and purple. One of their election posters had rainbow flags on them with "gay marriage now" on it as I remember. They stopped focusing on the Republican aspect of their appeal and started leaning into the "look, we're a left wing party. Look how progressive we are!"
Their vote went from 238,915 to 181,853 from the previous election. Safe to say the colours went straight back to green, white and orange and that whole thing was put to bed.
They're desperate to be electable and they'll do whatever it takes to get elected. I cannot stand them for that.
>North's Parliamentary elections for Westminster
I suppose if you're SF that's the one election you absolutely can chance your arm with doing shit like that because they don't take their seats.
If they lose Westminster seats to the SDLP or somewhere like North Belfast to the DUP then it's a symbolic blow rather than something they lose power in.
SF are getting the benefit of a protest / anti FG/FF vote from people who would not necessarily be natural SF voters based on policy.
SF are unusual in being an ideologically left nationalist / populist party, leaves them with a bit of a needle to thread, and Ireland is missing the kind of right wing populist parties that are doing well in much of Europe atm and could attract some support away from SF as well as FF / FG.
It was, because they thought that's what people wanted to hear
And now it's not, because they've realized that people don't actually want the gardai checking their phones for dangerous memes instead of maybe stopping actual crime sometimes
Honestly it's an achievement for SF to display this level of incompetence when all they have to do is sit in opposition to a government that has so many years of failure behind them
> Sinn Féin also proposed including “bias, prejudice, contempt, hostility and bigotry” as hate
While obviously well meaning…some of this looks reeeeaaally vague…like how would one prove contempt? And what comes under hostility?
Seems very restrictive, could have quite a chilling effect on free speech
I think the Government and opposition are going to have to go back to the drawing board on this bill. Important and (uncontroversial) necessary elements need to be broken out and passed separately. Including vague stuff like "bias" as "hatred" could (and should) lead to the entire bill being rejected.
They don't have hard opinions on almost anything other than a United Ireland.
I recently found it funny when someone said that you could spend 2 days defending Sinn Féin's position on something, only to discover on the third day that they now hold the complete opposite position.
>They don't have hard opinions on almost anything other than a United Ireland.
A united Ireland is the only real core objective of Sinn Féin. So they will go with the current if it means they get into power to achieve that objective.
Unfortunately we have a sizable number of voters now, especially younger voters, who don't see Sinn Féin having that objective but rather the objectives that are closest to them personally.
SF has one real objective - a united Ireland. Their other objectives are to get in power to achieve that primary objective.
The problem is people think that their own priorities are SF's priorities too. Which isn't the case.
I honestly don't believe they have thought that far ahead. Their main objective is a united Ireland. They will plough all of their energy into it. The reason the rest of their stuff is often conflicting is because it's window dressing.
The issue at hand is people are thinking they will behave like the other parties. SF are, arguably, the the first party with a chance of gaining power in the history of this State with a real objective outside the running of the country itself.
Lads, this amendment is a good start, but it doesn't go nearly far enough! As a proud son of the Kingdom, I can't tell you how many times I've been subjected to the vile slur of "bogger" while going about my business in Dublin. The pain and trauma of this hate speech has left me scarred and in desperate need of legal protection.
It's high time the Dáil recognized the plight of us oppressed Kerrymen and extended the definition of protected groups to include us. How can we hold our heads high knowing that any Jackeen can hurl abuse at us with impunity? #BoggerRightsNow
As a comrade from a rural town who has been subject to the horrors of being repeatedly called a "culchie" by the bastard Dubs, I stand with you.
Justice for the 31 counties!
I mean, why are only certain groups allowed to have protection from "hate"? Isn't the implication that some groups can be hated on with no repercussions? Whatever happened to equality?
Par for the course with SF - their only "opposition" is in saying the current government don't go far enough.
They did this for Yes/Yes, they did this with ending direct provision, they do this with mass migration (watch them back pedal on this too shortly).
They are a complete disaster under Mary Lou, and are frankly the same as the rest of them.
When a political position is as fluid as theirs then what exactly are you voting for when choosing them? FFG is literally the devil we know at this stage.
I won't be voting for ffg or sf
My number 1 issue is cannabis policy and last I heard from SF (at the debate on Gino Kennys bill) they were comparing it to heroin
Why? I have 3 criminal convictions for €2 €5 and €30 worth of cannabis that has heavily impacted my life even though the last one was over 10 years ago and I've never been in troublefor anything else.
I don't want to see something like that happen to my children or any other young adult in the country.
What's your number one issue since you're so judgemental? What should I be more concerned about?
I mean, fair enough, I just feel like there are bigger issues in the country at the minute than whether it's legal or not to smoke a joint. Your vote is worth just as much as mine though, so whatever works for you.
My number one and number two issues are housing and healthcare.
>just feel like there are bigger issues in the country at the minute than whether it's legal or not to smoke a joint
You can mitigate it all you want but there's a lot more to it than that. Here's how it affected my life
I have a godson in Australia that I will not see face to face until he's old enough to travel here himself.
I have a child that I won't be able to clear garda vetting for activities that require it.
I have much higher insurance premiums because I'm a convicted criminal.
I can't move jobs because it will require garda vetting.
I've had to turn down training opportunities in Canada and the US for fear my employer would find out about my convictions.
While I was going through the courts I was under immense stress. I can't put into words the distress and worry I felt at that time
All for €37 worth of cannabis
Imagine how much of a dickhead I would be if I told you its hilarious that you think housing is important because it doesn't affect me.
Housing is my number 2 even though I own my own house which is just increasing in value under the current situation.
Honestly no idea but I'd imagine it's very expensive if a way to do it exists.
Not sure I could stomach paying even €1 to get them overturned as I feel it's cost me enough already
I mean, weed is illegal in Ireland and you were caught with it three different times, so that's the risk you take. After the first time you obviously decided it was still worth it.
I don't agree with it being illegal or with the idea that it should have such a negative impact on your life, and I absolutely hope it gets legalised soon and people like you can have their records scrubbed of drug possession charges.
My immediate assumption was that you just really love weed and want it to be legal, which was why I found it hilarious. Obviously that assumption was wrong, and I do empathise with your situation. As I said, it's your vote, it's worth just as much as mine, and you're free to prioritise whatever issues you wish.
>I mean, weed is illegal in Ireland and you were caught with it three different times, so that's the risk you take. After the first time you obviously decided it was still worth it.
I was a very young (under 20) stupid man I don't deny that. But I also don't think that stupid yet decent people should suffer those consequences for tiny amounts of cannabis.
I have many more societal reasons why I think cannabis policy is important but I felt that how it affected me personally was more impactful in my reply to you
I don't even care about getting my record scrubbed. I just don't want to see it happen to other young people.
I am ignorant on these issues so forgive me, but can overseas employers see what exactly the convictions are for?
Probably a mess of procedure involved, but it would be a total farce if you can't go to places where (to a certain extent) cannabis is legal because you had it a couple of times here.
Not sure in regards to your question but on garda vetting here it would be a flagged as a drug possession charge. Which could be a personal amount of heroin or in the case of one of my convictions €2 worth of cannabis
My employer is in ireland but I couldn't risk being turned away at immigration in US or Canada when I arrive in the country as I'd have to explain that to my boss when I don't turn up to the €20,000 training course
> My number one and number two issues are housing and healthcare.
The parties have very similar policies on these areas so they aren't much use for deciding on your vote
Most of our major parties have similar views on pretty much every major issue, with only minor differences. That doesn't mean they're all competent enough to push through policies that solve them.
At the end of the day, you're voting for a candidate, so you're voting for the person you think is both competent and driven enough to push for solutions in these areas.
Well said.
Another point I'd add to this is that it's such a simple change compared to fixing the housing crisis or health system that if a party were elected on that platform, you can be pretty sure it would be resolved. Not so for housing and healthcare etc
I completely agree with you but I voted Green the last election because of their cannabis stance (and other green initiatives) and they got into government and the first thing Eamon Ryan said when they got into power was "Ireland isn't ready for it"
https://www.thesun.ie/news/6348399/ireland-not-ready-legalise-cannabis-eamon-ryan/
Bastard haha
True but that's because they're in with two far bigger parties who are anti-cannabis, so the cannabis thing probably dropped to the wayside in favour of other more mainline green issues, which makes sense. I'd be more disillusioned with then if they were leading a coalition and could do what they liked then said "lol never mind"
I understand why it happened but I can't trust them to not do the same thing next election.
Being honest them not turning up to the debate on Gino Kennys Bill and subsequently voting to delay a pretty minor decriminalisation bill (even though pre election the wanted to go the Amsterdam model) for 9 months sealed their fate with me
My top issues are long term plans around energy, and throttling of foreign investors in our property markets and destroying privatised insurance companies by implementing a state owned insurance company.
We are not the same meme.
>destroying privatised insurance companies by implementing a state owned insurance company.
I wonder how this will pan out in practice if it's ever implemented. Free healthcare has in theory been wonderful for the NHS but I work in it and for some things it's far quicker to go private in Ireland. I go home to see my dentist because I can't get an NHS one and their private prices are the same as my dentist in Cavan.
Universal healthcare free at the point of access is wonderful in theory but it's really fucking expensive and what the English experience proves is that people are unwilling to pay the tax for it.
I'm not rubbishing your idea, I'm just curious how it would work in comparison.
I'm in a similar boat to you - not that my number 1 priority is around weed but drug reform is important to me as I have a family member who is a drug addict and have seen how the current system fails.
I also care a lot about climate policy and would like to see more green spaces/squares/pedestrianisation to make Ireland a nicer place to spend time in - more akin to somewhere like Spain (without the weather). Especially if we can't solve housing.
What I've realised is the Green Party seem to be the most aligned to these things policy wise. I keep an eye on Social Democrats as well as they tick some boxes, but FFG and SF are miles off what I care about.
Yeah I think our current drug policy as a whole is corrosive to our society and it definitely doesn't do much to help people who are legitimately suffering from addiction
I voted Green the last election because of their stance on cannabis (like you i strongly believe in green initiatives also) but Eamon Ryan threw that out of the window as soon as the coalition was formed so I just can't bring myself to vote for them due to than
I really don't know who I will vote for next election being honest
See my other replies if you want more information
I own my house, myself and my family are in good health, I work with a lot of immigrants who are great people and believe the majority of immigrants are good people so I don't see it as a huge issue but I have criminal convictions for small time cannabis possession which have heavily impacted my life.
We all focus on the things that affect us the most
That's an unfortunate position to be in because Gino (or other PBP candidates) have zero interest in being in a governance and therefore accountable position.
Apart from cannabis I'd imagine not a lot of my views would be represented by PBP either I think.
The more I think about it I don't really know much about PBP being honest
On the issues I care about:
- climate change
- immigration
- European security
Sinn Féin manage to be even more weak and feckless than our current negligent government.
>Those characteristics are race, colour, nationality, religion (including the absence of religion), national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation and disability.
Makes sense that migrant status falls under these.
>The party’s amendments to the laws specified that reference to a person’s migrant status included references “to persons seeking international protection, persons with refugee status, persons with permission to remain and persons with any other regular or irregular migrant status”.
Interesting that the Indo decided to refer only to "undocumented migrants" in the title. Almost like they're trying to paint a picture. I've a feeling if Gript ran this story about a party supporting undocumented migrants people would think it's far-right shite. Will they say the same about the Indo though?
> Makes sense that migrant status falls under these.
This is correct - migrants will almost certainly fall under those categories indirectly given that they will tend to have different national or ethnic origins for obvious reaosns.
Is SF's point more so not about where those people come from or what race they are, but that those people would be discriminated against based on their legal status within the country?
No. They include all legal status for migrants.
From the article
>The party’s amendments to the laws specified that reference to a person’s migrant status included references “to persons seeking international protection, persons with refugee status, persons with permission to remain and persons with any other regular or irregular migrant status”.
Unless I misread the comment above mine. That gave the impression that place of origin, race/ethnicity would have already covered those people.
>They include all legal status for migrants.
Yes, that's what I was saying. My interpretation of what SF are saying is that hatred/violence could be incited against people not strictly because of where they're from, but their legal status in the country, and they wanted that as a protected characteristic.
And I wonder if it was by The Ditch about government parties, would we see the usual influx of accounts telling us how its bottom of the barrel journalism, and how they will ignore the content of the article and they dont matter because they dont like they owner and they have an "agenda"
I had the same read.
Indo leading with the very charged wording that doesn’t really align with that SF laid out.
I think it’s easy enough to call out SF for flip flopping but let’s not lie and rage bait racists. But it’s started to look like FG is taking a strategic step to the right heading into the next election so expect more of this.
And I wonder if it was by The Ditch about government parties, would we see the usual influx of accounts telling us how its bottom of the barrel journalism, and how they will ignore the content of the article and they dont matter because they dont like they owner and they have an "agenda"
The Indo peddles Gript like shite all the time such as the ramblings of Mary Kenny on how the Catholic Church was lovely and abortion is wrong.
Ciara Kelly and Eilis O'Hanlon write transphobic op eds all the time in the Sindo.
Do I think people love Ireland's [second most popular paper in subscriptions?](https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/0614/1389033-reuters-digital-news-report-ireland-print-newspaper-readership/)?
Yes. Yes I do.
This is a very pedantic reply. Second most popular paper in subscriptions is like winning a slow bicycle race. What did it say, 5% of people subscribe to a newspaper? (Edit: it was 5% get most of their news from a paper).
My point is, do you think the people who consider Gript far right shite, would be unlikely to consider the Independent far right shite?
It's not as if people view the Independent as some sort of bastion of the liberal media.
They have a long history of being anti-working class and anti-union.
>This is a very pedantic reply.
You asked a question and got an answer.
>My point is, do you think the people who consider Gript far right shite, would be unlikely to consider the Independent far right shite?
That's the point. Nobody who reads the Indo as their go-to media would consider it as far right. So that get away with peddling far-right headlines as they have here. The same people would call out Gript immediately for this headline.
>It's not as if people view the Independent as some sort of bastion of the liberal media.
Nobody said that's the case but it is definitely the case that people think it's unbiased. Probably only because the paper agrees with their views.
>it was 5% get most of their news from a paper
This is irrelevant. If I read the paper once a day and then get more news from online sources then I'm still reading the paper daily.
What a load of BS
SF has signaled its opposition to the bill as a nod and a wink to the nationalist know-nothings.
Now that the message has been received with the petty racists, SF hopes to circle back to its liberal voters and say "actually the bill didn't go far enough"
Trying to burn the candle at both ends - plus ca change - Sinn Fein.
If they are serious, then they'll lose my vote.
That bill is a disgrace. They should spend their time solving the several crises affecting the country instead of trying to distract people with this undemocratic crap.
We have laws to address harassment and the incitement of hate. The bill serves no purpose beyond expanding governmental control on public discourse.
Control that they won't easily relent.
Will it be abused by this government? Maybe. Maybe not. It will lay the foundation for an abusive system in the future, however.
I am wholehearted against it.
I've more or less just explained why.
I am against an expansion of governmental control over public discourse. I do not believe it is required.
Why are you in favour of it?
What have I not been clear on? I'm willing to elaborate if you're in it for a conversation, but I do feel like it's fairly clear
I am about the expansion of governmental control over public discourse. We're you looking for me to quote the changes or something? (Not meant with any cheeky, asking genuinely)
Okay, so you don't think the current legislation is adequate enough to be used for online issue. I do.
Is this bill generally well supported by the public? I dont use hate speech but you know, how easy is it to prosecute? How well defined is it? Seems a bit scary
Is this bill less vague than the one passed in Scotland lately...I feel it's going to be a slippery slope...if intent isn't considered it's going to be a complete sh!tshow...
I'll need to close the curtains when I have friends over to play "Secret Hitler", in case I offend my German neighbours
Well that is why I asked, if this legislation was going to be different from that in Scotland, that piece of legislation is gonna be a slippery slope, you will have folks asking protesting a genocide in Gaza being convicted of hate crime legislation in Scotland in its current form...
Yes, so in Scotlands case... making statements that are antisemitic is illegal, but some folks think that saying Israel should stop killing civilians may be deemed antisemitic by folks...in Scotland, their version is open to abuse...that's a slippery slope to me and many liberals in Scotland
Seems to me the indo is using the anti-immigrant sentiment to attack Sinn Fein and people are falling for it.
Go ahead and vote for a right wing party all you want but you'll be stuck with the housing crisis and Fine Gael for life
>The party further wanted to define hatred and incitement.
That makes sense to me.
This popped out to me as well. They know that SF is threatening the establishment parties FFG and to try take voters away from SF by getting those people to vote for small far-right parties, basically nulling their votes and in turn SF gets less votes so can't challenge FFG and so the current parties get back in.
This amendment would of been drafted months ago lol its pretty clear the Independent are using the anti-immigrant sentiment to attack SF. The establishment would rather see a right-wing or even far-right government over SF or others because they know it protects the vultures and landlords and it'll keep the rents nice and high and the poor hungry and homeless.
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Oof not a good look for them, they are speed running what FG are doing and alienating their base fast.
I expected this more when they would be in over but if they keep this going it another term on the back benches .
so is their issue with the bill that it doesn’t go far enough?
Sinn Féin play both sides of most issues. If the Bill passes they can take credit by saying they support it. If the media criticises it for going too far or not far enough they'll say "we wanted a different Bill."
It's how they play referendum campaigns too.
Not really, there are basically two ways to read their view: The naive but technical way: they have multiple issues with the bill, one of which is that they think the protected characteristics should be expanded, but that's compatible with having reservations about other aspects, like the allegedly vague definition of hate, or the powers granted to the authorities, etc. The cynical but probably more accurate reading: their issue with the bill is that it has become much more unpopular among people they want to vote for them than (they believed) it was when they originally supported it.
Of the main parties the people I’ve met who’ve been the most opposed to migrants have all been SF voters so I have no clue what SF is doing here. Are they that removed from their base ?
They don't know what their base is as it's constantly shifting. There's a core but that's pretty small. Then there's a significant cohort who will vote for them as agents of change and want to give them a spell in government. But if they fuck up in government and don't deliver change they'll lose those voters. Their problem, and their brain trust knows it, is that they can't possibly deliver on a lot of their policies as they're little more than slogans.
There’s no party loyalty like in the pst except amongst the hardliners so SF and other populist parties twist themselves in knots trying to be all things to all people. Problem is economic solidarity is no longer the main differentiator in politics because it has migrated to emotional solidarity.
> they can't possibly deliver on a lot of their policies as they're little more than slogans. That hasn't really mattered for the other two, has it?
They have lost a lot of support to SF. So it has mattered.
It mattered to their voters. It didn't matter for the parties. SF will happily just do the same. I would reluctantly vote them in, with the hope that they would remove many of the appointments that the other two have made and shake things up a little, but we desperately need a party that leans right, away from those three and that could contest things in government. FFG are pure dirt from their grassroots all the way through their council seats.
Really? So everyone is happy with the government? OK.
No, read it again. I said that 'not delivering on a lot of their policies' hasn't mattered for the other two. i.e. Once elected, they didn't even remember what they promised.
> Are they that removed from their base ? Yes. It's genuinely as simple as that. There was one election cycle there about 5 years ago in the North's Parliamentary elections for Westminster where they changed all their branding to pink and purple. One of their election posters had rainbow flags on them with "gay marriage now" on it as I remember. They stopped focusing on the Republican aspect of their appeal and started leaning into the "look, we're a left wing party. Look how progressive we are!" Their vote went from 238,915 to 181,853 from the previous election. Safe to say the colours went straight back to green, white and orange and that whole thing was put to bed. They're desperate to be electable and they'll do whatever it takes to get elected. I cannot stand them for that.
>North's Parliamentary elections for Westminster I suppose if you're SF that's the one election you absolutely can chance your arm with doing shit like that because they don't take their seats. If they lose Westminster seats to the SDLP or somewhere like North Belfast to the DUP then it's a symbolic blow rather than something they lose power in.
They absolutely do care. Between staff costs and allowances they draw down, you are talking big money
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SF are getting the benefit of a protest / anti FG/FF vote from people who would not necessarily be natural SF voters based on policy. SF are unusual in being an ideologically left nationalist / populist party, leaves them with a bit of a needle to thread, and Ireland is missing the kind of right wing populist parties that are doing well in much of Europe atm and could attract some support away from SF as well as FF / FG.
It was, because they thought that's what people wanted to hear And now it's not, because they've realized that people don't actually want the gardai checking their phones for dangerous memes instead of maybe stopping actual crime sometimes Honestly it's an achievement for SF to display this level of incompetence when all they have to do is sit in opposition to a government that has so many years of failure behind them
That's ridiculous
> Sinn Féin also proposed including “bias, prejudice, contempt, hostility and bigotry” as hate While obviously well meaning…some of this looks reeeeaaally vague…like how would one prove contempt? And what comes under hostility? Seems very restrictive, could have quite a chilling effect on free speech
Also what's wrong with contempt? I feel contempt towards close friends and family at times!
I think the Government and opposition are going to have to go back to the drawing board on this bill. Important and (uncontroversial) necessary elements need to be broken out and passed separately. Including vague stuff like "bias" as "hatred" could (and should) lead to the entire bill being rejected.
Ye, that surely is not a slippery road... Lol, this is a joke of a legislation
> The party further wanted to define hatred and incitement. You left that part out
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They do, in both directions.
They don't have hard opinions on almost anything other than a United Ireland. I recently found it funny when someone said that you could spend 2 days defending Sinn Féin's position on something, only to discover on the third day that they now hold the complete opposite position.
>They don't have hard opinions on almost anything other than a United Ireland. A united Ireland is the only real core objective of Sinn Féin. So they will go with the current if it means they get into power to achieve that objective. Unfortunately we have a sizable number of voters now, especially younger voters, who don't see Sinn Féin having that objective but rather the objectives that are closest to them personally.
Why is it unfortunate that SF have objectives that a sizable number of people want?
SF has one real objective - a united Ireland. Their other objectives are to get in power to achieve that primary objective. The problem is people think that their own priorities are SF's priorities too. Which isn't the case.
They need to be in power a while achieve that objective. And to stay in power they need to do what the people want. That seems like a win-win
I honestly don't believe they have thought that far ahead. Their main objective is a united Ireland. They will plough all of their energy into it. The reason the rest of their stuff is often conflicting is because it's window dressing. The issue at hand is people are thinking they will behave like the other parties. SF are, arguably, the the first party with a chance of gaining power in the history of this State with a real objective outside the running of the country itself.
Lads, this amendment is a good start, but it doesn't go nearly far enough! As a proud son of the Kingdom, I can't tell you how many times I've been subjected to the vile slur of "bogger" while going about my business in Dublin. The pain and trauma of this hate speech has left me scarred and in desperate need of legal protection. It's high time the Dáil recognized the plight of us oppressed Kerrymen and extended the definition of protected groups to include us. How can we hold our heads high knowing that any Jackeen can hurl abuse at us with impunity? #BoggerRightsNow
As a comrade from a rural town who has been subject to the horrors of being repeatedly called a "culchie" by the bastard Dubs, I stand with you. Justice for the 31 counties!
I mean, why are only certain groups allowed to have protection from "hate"? Isn't the implication that some groups can be hated on with no repercussions? Whatever happened to equality?
I've emailed them a proposal for a Bogger/Jackeen "Parity of Esteem" clause to be added in.
I am sorry, but what about marginalized Cork people?
Cork has its own separate laws.
Im suprisws the Jackeens could get a word out with englands boot still in their mouths
Par for the course with SF - their only "opposition" is in saying the current government don't go far enough. They did this for Yes/Yes, they did this with ending direct provision, they do this with mass migration (watch them back pedal on this too shortly). They are a complete disaster under Mary Lou, and are frankly the same as the rest of them.
>and are frankly the same as the rest of them. Might be worse
When a political position is as fluid as theirs then what exactly are you voting for when choosing them? FFG is literally the devil we know at this stage.
I won't be voting for ffg or sf My number 1 issue is cannabis policy and last I heard from SF (at the debate on Gino Kennys bill) they were comparing it to heroin
No offence, but I find it absolutely hilarious that someone's **number one** issue in this country at the moment could be cannabis.
Why? I have 3 criminal convictions for €2 €5 and €30 worth of cannabis that has heavily impacted my life even though the last one was over 10 years ago and I've never been in troublefor anything else. I don't want to see something like that happen to my children or any other young adult in the country. What's your number one issue since you're so judgemental? What should I be more concerned about?
I mean, fair enough, I just feel like there are bigger issues in the country at the minute than whether it's legal or not to smoke a joint. Your vote is worth just as much as mine though, so whatever works for you. My number one and number two issues are housing and healthcare.
>just feel like there are bigger issues in the country at the minute than whether it's legal or not to smoke a joint You can mitigate it all you want but there's a lot more to it than that. Here's how it affected my life I have a godson in Australia that I will not see face to face until he's old enough to travel here himself. I have a child that I won't be able to clear garda vetting for activities that require it. I have much higher insurance premiums because I'm a convicted criminal. I can't move jobs because it will require garda vetting. I've had to turn down training opportunities in Canada and the US for fear my employer would find out about my convictions. While I was going through the courts I was under immense stress. I can't put into words the distress and worry I felt at that time All for €37 worth of cannabis Imagine how much of a dickhead I would be if I told you its hilarious that you think housing is important because it doesn't affect me. Housing is my number 2 even though I own my own house which is just increasing in value under the current situation.
Is there no way you can get those convictions expunged? Really minor shit and it sounds like you've not been in trouble with the law since
Honestly no idea but I'd imagine it's very expensive if a way to do it exists. Not sure I could stomach paying even €1 to get them overturned as I feel it's cost me enough already
Afaik it's not possible once you've got multiple convictions.
I mean, weed is illegal in Ireland and you were caught with it three different times, so that's the risk you take. After the first time you obviously decided it was still worth it. I don't agree with it being illegal or with the idea that it should have such a negative impact on your life, and I absolutely hope it gets legalised soon and people like you can have their records scrubbed of drug possession charges. My immediate assumption was that you just really love weed and want it to be legal, which was why I found it hilarious. Obviously that assumption was wrong, and I do empathise with your situation. As I said, it's your vote, it's worth just as much as mine, and you're free to prioritise whatever issues you wish.
>I mean, weed is illegal in Ireland and you were caught with it three different times, so that's the risk you take. After the first time you obviously decided it was still worth it. I was a very young (under 20) stupid man I don't deny that. But I also don't think that stupid yet decent people should suffer those consequences for tiny amounts of cannabis. I have many more societal reasons why I think cannabis policy is important but I felt that how it affected me personally was more impactful in my reply to you I don't even care about getting my record scrubbed. I just don't want to see it happen to other young people.
I am ignorant on these issues so forgive me, but can overseas employers see what exactly the convictions are for? Probably a mess of procedure involved, but it would be a total farce if you can't go to places where (to a certain extent) cannabis is legal because you had it a couple of times here.
Not sure in regards to your question but on garda vetting here it would be a flagged as a drug possession charge. Which could be a personal amount of heroin or in the case of one of my convictions €2 worth of cannabis My employer is in ireland but I couldn't risk being turned away at immigration in US or Canada when I arrive in the country as I'd have to explain that to my boss when I don't turn up to the €20,000 training course
> My number one and number two issues are housing and healthcare. The parties have very similar policies on these areas so they aren't much use for deciding on your vote
Most of our major parties have similar views on pretty much every major issue, with only minor differences. That doesn't mean they're all competent enough to push through policies that solve them. At the end of the day, you're voting for a candidate, so you're voting for the person you think is both competent and driven enough to push for solutions in these areas.
Well said. Another point I'd add to this is that it's such a simple change compared to fixing the housing crisis or health system that if a party were elected on that platform, you can be pretty sure it would be resolved. Not so for housing and healthcare etc
I completely agree with you but I voted Green the last election because of their cannabis stance (and other green initiatives) and they got into government and the first thing Eamon Ryan said when they got into power was "Ireland isn't ready for it" https://www.thesun.ie/news/6348399/ireland-not-ready-legalise-cannabis-eamon-ryan/ Bastard haha
True but that's because they're in with two far bigger parties who are anti-cannabis, so the cannabis thing probably dropped to the wayside in favour of other more mainline green issues, which makes sense. I'd be more disillusioned with then if they were leading a coalition and could do what they liked then said "lol never mind"
I understand why it happened but I can't trust them to not do the same thing next election. Being honest them not turning up to the debate on Gino Kennys Bill and subsequently voting to delay a pretty minor decriminalisation bill (even though pre election the wanted to go the Amsterdam model) for 9 months sealed their fate with me
r/Ireland moment
My top issues are long term plans around energy, and throttling of foreign investors in our property markets and destroying privatised insurance companies by implementing a state owned insurance company. We are not the same meme.
>My top issues are long term plans around energy, Sounds like green policies are important to both of us
Touchè
>destroying privatised insurance companies by implementing a state owned insurance company. I wonder how this will pan out in practice if it's ever implemented. Free healthcare has in theory been wonderful for the NHS but I work in it and for some things it's far quicker to go private in Ireland. I go home to see my dentist because I can't get an NHS one and their private prices are the same as my dentist in Cavan. Universal healthcare free at the point of access is wonderful in theory but it's really fucking expensive and what the English experience proves is that people are unwilling to pay the tax for it. I'm not rubbishing your idea, I'm just curious how it would work in comparison.
I'm in a similar boat to you - not that my number 1 priority is around weed but drug reform is important to me as I have a family member who is a drug addict and have seen how the current system fails. I also care a lot about climate policy and would like to see more green spaces/squares/pedestrianisation to make Ireland a nicer place to spend time in - more akin to somewhere like Spain (without the weather). Especially if we can't solve housing. What I've realised is the Green Party seem to be the most aligned to these things policy wise. I keep an eye on Social Democrats as well as they tick some boxes, but FFG and SF are miles off what I care about.
Yeah I think our current drug policy as a whole is corrosive to our society and it definitely doesn't do much to help people who are legitimately suffering from addiction I voted Green the last election because of their stance on cannabis (like you i strongly believe in green initiatives also) but Eamon Ryan threw that out of the window as soon as the coalition was formed so I just can't bring myself to vote for them due to than I really don't know who I will vote for next election being honest
Weu, they do have form on being anti - drugs and anti- dealers .
Above housing? Above healthcare and immigration? Your biggest priority is weed?
See my other replies if you want more information I own my house, myself and my family are in good health, I work with a lot of immigrants who are great people and believe the majority of immigrants are good people so I don't see it as a huge issue but I have criminal convictions for small time cannabis possession which have heavily impacted my life. We all focus on the things that affect us the most
That's an unfortunate position to be in because Gino (or other PBP candidates) have zero interest in being in a governance and therefore accountable position.
Apart from cannabis I'd imagine not a lot of my views would be represented by PBP either I think. The more I think about it I don't really know much about PBP being honest
On the issues I care about: - climate change - immigration - European security Sinn Féin manage to be even more weak and feckless than our current negligent government.
Almost definitely worse.
I think they are. A traitor is worse than an enemy.
I think they are too but I'm not sure I'd describe them as traitors
They’ve always said they want alterations to the bill you clown, you’re not even making a point here
'Alterations' as in it didn't go far enough. No one wants these 'hate speech' bills. Why would any party support them in any capacity?
Sounds like you didn’t read the article to be honest
The pancake party flip again
SF was always going to have some conflict when their new voters attracted to nationalist ideals realised it was a left wing party.
Until they read twitter.
What about unionist migrants?
Slaughtered at the border and sold to cannibal tribes in Cavan
>Those characteristics are race, colour, nationality, religion (including the absence of religion), national or ethnic origin, descent, gender, sex characteristics, sexual orientation and disability. Makes sense that migrant status falls under these. >The party’s amendments to the laws specified that reference to a person’s migrant status included references “to persons seeking international protection, persons with refugee status, persons with permission to remain and persons with any other regular or irregular migrant status”. Interesting that the Indo decided to refer only to "undocumented migrants" in the title. Almost like they're trying to paint a picture. I've a feeling if Gript ran this story about a party supporting undocumented migrants people would think it's far-right shite. Will they say the same about the Indo though?
> Makes sense that migrant status falls under these. This is correct - migrants will almost certainly fall under those categories indirectly given that they will tend to have different national or ethnic origins for obvious reaosns.
Is SF's point more so not about where those people come from or what race they are, but that those people would be discriminated against based on their legal status within the country?
No. They include all legal status for migrants. From the article >The party’s amendments to the laws specified that reference to a person’s migrant status included references “to persons seeking international protection, persons with refugee status, persons with permission to remain and persons with any other regular or irregular migrant status”.
Unless I misread the comment above mine. That gave the impression that place of origin, race/ethnicity would have already covered those people. >They include all legal status for migrants. Yes, that's what I was saying. My interpretation of what SF are saying is that hatred/violence could be incited against people not strictly because of where they're from, but their legal status in the country, and they wanted that as a protected characteristic.
And I wonder if it was by The Ditch about government parties, would we see the usual influx of accounts telling us how its bottom of the barrel journalism, and how they will ignore the content of the article and they dont matter because they dont like they owner and they have an "agenda"
This is insane. Referring to an illegal immigrant as an illegal immigrant will now be a hate crime.
No it won't.
I had the same read. Indo leading with the very charged wording that doesn’t really align with that SF laid out. I think it’s easy enough to call out SF for flip flopping but let’s not lie and rage bait racists. But it’s started to look like FG is taking a strategic step to the right heading into the next election so expect more of this.
And I wonder if it was by The Ditch about government parties, would we see the usual influx of accounts telling us how its bottom of the barrel journalism, and how they will ignore the content of the article and they dont matter because they dont like they owner and they have an "agenda"
Absolutely deplore SF, but that headline is wild. Rag of an article
The Indo peddles Gript like shite all the time such as the ramblings of Mary Kenny on how the Catholic Church was lovely and abortion is wrong. Ciara Kelly and Eilis O'Hanlon write transphobic op eds all the time in the Sindo.
Do you think people love the Irish Independent or something?
Do I think people love Ireland's [second most popular paper in subscriptions?](https://www.rte.ie/brainstorm/2023/0614/1389033-reuters-digital-news-report-ireland-print-newspaper-readership/)? Yes. Yes I do.
This is a very pedantic reply. Second most popular paper in subscriptions is like winning a slow bicycle race. What did it say, 5% of people subscribe to a newspaper? (Edit: it was 5% get most of their news from a paper). My point is, do you think the people who consider Gript far right shite, would be unlikely to consider the Independent far right shite? It's not as if people view the Independent as some sort of bastion of the liberal media. They have a long history of being anti-working class and anti-union.
>This is a very pedantic reply. You asked a question and got an answer. >My point is, do you think the people who consider Gript far right shite, would be unlikely to consider the Independent far right shite? That's the point. Nobody who reads the Indo as their go-to media would consider it as far right. So that get away with peddling far-right headlines as they have here. The same people would call out Gript immediately for this headline. >It's not as if people view the Independent as some sort of bastion of the liberal media. Nobody said that's the case but it is definitely the case that people think it's unbiased. Probably only because the paper agrees with their views. >it was 5% get most of their news from a paper This is irrelevant. If I read the paper once a day and then get more news from online sources then I'm still reading the paper daily.
This isn't on. It's bad form
Wow, they double down on this bullshit, they will never get my vote.
these guys are flip-flopping so much I wonder are they actually still in favour of a united Ireland any more
They're noe thinking maybe just take 1 or 2 counties after hearing of the 20 billion a year bill.
Technically this was part of the original flip, before the subsequent flop.
Undocumented migrants = illegal migrants
It's fucking amazing how, given how badly FF and FG have handled everything, SF can be so fucking tone deaf.
Experts at playing both sides of the field
What a load of BS SF has signaled its opposition to the bill as a nod and a wink to the nationalist know-nothings. Now that the message has been received with the petty racists, SF hopes to circle back to its liberal voters and say "actually the bill didn't go far enough" Trying to burn the candle at both ends - plus ca change - Sinn Fein.
Schrodingers political party
If they are serious, then they'll lose my vote. That bill is a disgrace. They should spend their time solving the several crises affecting the country instead of trying to distract people with this undemocratic crap.
How is it undemocratic? Do you think we normally vote on laws here ?
No, hardly. I know what a representative democracy is. It's undemocratic because of the substance of the bill.
Explain?
We have laws to address harassment and the incitement of hate. The bill serves no purpose beyond expanding governmental control on public discourse. Control that they won't easily relent. Will it be abused by this government? Maybe. Maybe not. It will lay the foundation for an abusive system in the future, however. I am wholehearted against it.
Yes this is an update of the 30 year old incitement to hatred act. Why are you against it ?
I've more or less just explained why. I am against an expansion of governmental control over public discourse. I do not believe it is required. Why are you in favour of it?
You didn't really explain anything. I think the legislation that doesn't even mention computers needs updating.
What have I not been clear on? I'm willing to elaborate if you're in it for a conversation, but I do feel like it's fairly clear I am about the expansion of governmental control over public discourse. We're you looking for me to quote the changes or something? (Not meant with any cheeky, asking genuinely) Okay, so you don't think the current legislation is adequate enough to be used for online issue. I do.
If you are ok with the current legislation and not with the new one, what's the difference that you object to?
I got the feeling sinn fein really don't want to be in power not doing themselves any favours
Is this bill generally well supported by the public? I dont use hate speech but you know, how easy is it to prosecute? How well defined is it? Seems a bit scary
Consistent as always.
You are not allowed think, just pay your taxes and keep quiet, we know what is best for you...
And anyone that had called this out before today was branded "far right"
Watch as Sinn Féin "get tough on immigration" when they realise that'll earn them more votes than #RefugeesWelcome
Is this bill less vague than the one passed in Scotland lately...I feel it's going to be a slippery slope...if intent isn't considered it's going to be a complete sh!tshow... I'll need to close the curtains when I have friends over to play "Secret Hitler", in case I offend my German neighbours
Intent is central to the legislation. Slippery slope isn't real.
Well the law in Scotland is certainly on a very slippery slope, intent isn't part of it all
Slippery slope isn't a real thing. We aren't in Scotland.
Well that is why I asked, if this legislation was going to be different from that in Scotland, that piece of legislation is gonna be a slippery slope, you will have folks asking protesting a genocide in Gaza being convicted of hate crime legislation in Scotland in its current form...
It obviously is different from the Scottish legislation. Slippery slope doesn't exist.
Slippery Slope certainly exists, it's when the letter of the law doesn't match the spirit of the law...
Nah. Slippery slope claims that X will lead to Y because X is closer to Y then we are now. It's a baseless claim.
Yes, so in Scotlands case... making statements that are antisemitic is illegal, but some folks think that saying Israel should stop killing civilians may be deemed antisemitic by folks...in Scotland, their version is open to abuse...that's a slippery slope to me and many liberals in Scotland
1. Yeah I don't care about the Scotland case, it's not applicable to the Irish legislation. 2. You haven't shown any proof of slippery slope.
Seatbelts on these comments are going to be bumpy
Nail in the coffin for this so called 'opposition'
Sinn "Shoot Themselves in the Foot" Fein. I dislike them more and more each day. They are just way too far left
I'd rather they shoot themselves than be shooting anyone else!
This is hardly a far left position, whatever else it might be.
Werent SF against the hate speach bill last week???
I wonder if people will accuse Sinn Fein of being “Woke.”
FF, FG, Greens, SF, SD, and Aontu are all deemed "woke" because of the uniformity of their stances on multiculturalism and social issues.
Aontú uniform on social issues 🤔
Aontú wants to restrict abortion. I wouldn’t call misogyny “woke.” Unless it’s some new kind of misogyny.
By who, the National Party? I'm sure some other group considers the NP woke for not wearing swastikas
We may have dodged a bullet.
next week - sinn fein drops 3 more points
The Indo completely reaching to smear SF as usual
Seems to me the indo is using the anti-immigrant sentiment to attack Sinn Fein and people are falling for it. Go ahead and vote for a right wing party all you want but you'll be stuck with the housing crisis and Fine Gael for life >The party further wanted to define hatred and incitement. That makes sense to me.
This popped out to me as well. They know that SF is threatening the establishment parties FFG and to try take voters away from SF by getting those people to vote for small far-right parties, basically nulling their votes and in turn SF gets less votes so can't challenge FFG and so the current parties get back in.
Exactly. This amendment want penned months ago, they're only dragging it up now to attack them
Thankfully there's people out there that can see through this bullshit!
This amendment would of been drafted months ago lol its pretty clear the Independent are using the anti-immigrant sentiment to attack SF. The establishment would rather see a right-wing or even far-right government over SF or others because they know it protects the vultures and landlords and it'll keep the rents nice and high and the poor hungry and homeless.
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Oof not a good look for them, they are speed running what FG are doing and alienating their base fast. I expected this more when they would be in over but if they keep this going it another term on the back benches .