The influx of a large transient substance abusing population to Missoula has completely changed the vibe of the city, especially in the heart of downtown and also near the Johnson Street shelter. I think it's important to distinguish this group from Missoula's more typical homeless, such as those who can't afford housing, may be living out of their cars or couch surfing. The two groups need different approaches and services.
The former group causes the trouble, and many (all?) have been 86ed from the shelters. We need some solutions, such as temporary housing and a campground for these people, and stricter enforcement that channels them to these two options. Why, for example, doesn't the city build a temporary campground in Silver Park? I realize there will be opposition, but they're camping there or nearby already. Make it official and sanitary.
There are hidden consequences to the current untenable situation that affect the rest of us: 1st responders burn out, which impacts any of us who need their services; we are now a city where many people don't feel safe and we have to put up with petty crime that didn't exist here all that long ago; our beautiful river is threatened by all the trash.
I agree. We have homeless here and always have, and now we have this newer situation of street people who are usually dealing with addictions and serious mental health problems. We offer them very little and they create a lot of mayhem. I had a brother like this who passed away a few years ago. His problems started at age 5 with a head injury. My mom kept him off the streets by paying for his housing and sometimes food, which created some resentment from some of his siblings. So, it's not just in the streets, of course, it's in our families too.
Thanks for your comment. Last year there was a homeless camp on Clark Fork Road near the Wal Mart on Mullen. The city did a good job making sure that the camp had everything someone would need to live...The camp was trashed, porta potties were turned over and the city ended up taking at least 3 tons of trash out of the camp. The homeless people living in the camp destroyed the place.
I guess the answer is to have 24/7 security. I know the city tried something like this closer to downtown with poor results, but I was told security was an issue. At the least, any campground would need daily maintenance, just like a regular campground.
you’re applying (understandable) normative logic to an issue that is neither. people don’t behave in the ways you describe because they’re coping well with the demands life placed/places on them. the framework for solutions has to revolve around their priorities for day-to-day living and definitions of security/home/belonging, not someone else’s.
that said, i don’t have a solution. but i hear your frustration.
Why isn’t the answer make them play nice in the sandbox or else deny them access to the sandbox? Is there any science to support sanctioned homeless camps are good for those people? Beyond the science how is this an ethical and reasonable use of taxpayer resources, let alone the environmental impact? Help them get out of homeless sure but the idea that this is somehow humane is absurd. Maybe we clean people up and those that can function end up spending some time doing CCC style work, earn some cash and rehabilitate before actually reintegrating with society. I just don’t see how endorsing and supporting this type of living is good for anyone, especially the people living like this
I agree, but you're going to have to change the law first. For example, how do you clean people up who don't want to get cleaned up? I'm in favor of services an work programs, but I also want a practical solution that addresses the problem quickly. And we're not going to avoid spending money on the problem. A lot of money, unfortunately.
I kind of wonder if it would be more money than the current local service cost between law enforcement, medical services, and incarceration. Maybe the start up cost would be more but within a few years it becomes less than the status quo?
I've seen it numerous times that sometimes homelessness is their choice. I've talked to a few who told me as such. They don't want to be a cog in the system. They will do jobs under the table and panhandle but they don't want to assimilate. Two different friends do social work type stuff - one more physical and the other more mental. The first worked at a shelter where they would have a bed, meal, help with rent, etc... a friend helped this one guy who was all on board, at first. Once he got a job and had a place to live he decided he didn't want to do it anymore. It wasn't who he was and he liked the way he lived. Another friend who worked at a mental health clinic, has had numerous homelessness come to the clinic for a bed, food, shower... coworkers and her will go and talk to them but get met with hostility. They have issues with folks trying to steal medication which wasn't necessary as the clinic will give them free of charge. No pain pills though which is usually what they want. They want to help them but you can only help those who want help.
All true. I've worked in social services myself. Change is hard, and relapse is a given with some populations. I don't care if a person wants to camp out and not assimilate. But I don't think they should be camping in the floodplain where the stuff they leave behind will end up in the river during spring runoff. Thus, the suggestion of a designated campground.
Science shows that you need public housing corporations that build places suitable for a mix of social situations. Concentrating disadvantaged people into shelters leads to these problems. Low barrier social housing puts a baseline cheap rent for people that work while also providing a place that folks who don’t have the facilities to work to be part of society rather than on the outskirts.
Finland eliminated homelessness with these programs and has a better track record at helping people recover from substance abuse.
https://www.munifin.fi/whats-new/finnish-system-for-affordable-social-housing-supports-social-mixing-and-brings-down-homelessness/
Yes, what Finland did is the right idea. Of course, that's in a country that prioritizes people instead of capital. Sometimes I think we're going to have to rely on a volunteer system along with grants and tax-based funding to address a huge problem that is pressing on communities throughout the country. In other words, some of us with the resources need to pony up, because government isn't going to do it all.
What does low barrier social housing mean? I get the sense we could and should help people on the edge stay in dwellings of their own. But I cannot see how the type of people OP is talking about are going to have their issues solved by lowering the bar of housing. And obviously Finland is a wildly different nation than the US
"And obviously Finland is a wildly different place than the US." As a European living in Missoula and the US for over a decade this just makes me roll my eyes.
I find this line of thinking extremely defeatist. We're all humans and we should actually be trying to take care of these people who cannot take care of themselves. You can either actually help them, ignore the problem and spend lots of money on half-assed measured which ends up costing more than actually helping them (We are here), or ship them off somewhere else to be somebody else's problem (Let's not do this).
If we start giving a fuck about other humans here and understand that some people are just not going to be capable of integrating with current societal norms and make some humane hard decisions and accept that this WILL cost money then we can make some headway.
It can be from drugs, because of drugs, from mental health issues, because of mental health issues, or any combination thereof building upon each other that causes these people to need to be taken care of. Closing the asylums was a huge contributor to this issue. Asylums provide housing, medication, hygiene, reeducation and job skills programs, and food. We do all of these things in a half-assed method already which clearly isn't working.
Then we need other programs for mentally healthy and physically able people who are homeless due to normal circumstances. This could happen to ANY of us from sickness or a multiple of other causes. I think we lack empathy for the homeless because they aren't us while we sit around and pretend this can't happen to us because we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. The people in this latter category can easily fall into the former category without help. It could happen to any of us.
I think the fact we are allowing this homelessness to take place, and the attitude that we have about it, says a lot about our society. A supposedly Christian society based on the values of a deity who told us to give our all to our neighbors and have love for one another as for ourselves. The church tithes could certainly go a long way towards contributing to these costs along with not half-assing how we spend the taxdollars we earmark for these people as is.
You said a lot and I’m not going to respond to all of it but generally I agree with you on everything except the weird christian thing at the bottom. Not only is this not a christian nation definitionally but church attendance and affiliation is way way down from what it was even a few decades ago. Also Churches are often one of the largest providers of care for the needy in communities, which includes Missoula. There are a number of church organizations I’ve worked with in Missoula that are well meaning and dedicated tons of volunteer hours to this issue in various ways. Also I don’t think it’s defeatist to say the US & Europe are different. The situation with drugs and access to care is radically different at a policy level. It isn’t as simple as “make America Finland”, even if there is a strong argument that policy in other countries is more successful at addressing issues we also experience
What works is that once they are stabilized in housing and other basic needs are met, then other concerns that go unmet in a state of survival on the streets can then be addressed. Like addressing mental health, immense amounts of trauma, substance abuse/misuse, education, employment, etc.
Again, wishing these people away does nothing. And this is by far the best approach we have to helping to socialize people who have been in a complete counter culture for far too long.
I think homeless is too broad of a term. Working poor or people who just plain have bad luck should have all the opportunities we can afford to not put them on the street. With that I agree stabilizing housing is the answer. With the severely mentally ill/ drug addict demographic I can’t see that working, especially the addict group. Their basic needs are secondary to their addiction, if they can sell what you provide them for drugs they will. No nice answers to that problem.
Finland’s population is less than 6 million, taxes are higher. In theory it works but would never work in US. States rights, 50 different taxation statutes. I see mostly addicts & mentally ill… these folks aren’t accepting help to get well; they only want handouts (I live on the Westside). Now the city is installing Narcan vending machines. This is enablement. I thought I was a liberal until I moved to Missoula. These idiots trying to run the city have flown the coop.
It is the only thing that has solid research and trials that fixes homelessness that I can find. All the other solutions just put a band aid on it.
People love to complain but solid and cohesive demands by the community makes things happen. We could solve housing and homelessness but it’s going to take 20 years of building and development to catch up with demand.
Human beings need sanitary living conditions or else you get crime and drug addiction that cost more to the community than the housing would.
You cant help people who refuse to help themselves. You can try but the drug will always be more important until they themselves cant take it anymore and want a better life.
Just gonna throw out there that yes homeless population has increased in Missoula, but its not hard to see that this is a national issue. Most cities are seeing an increase.
Acquiring housing is becoming significantly more onerous. I've got a friend that makes $25ish/hr, working full time, and she barely qualified to move into a room in the most falling-apart-ass house I've seen in a while. This was in a different town in Washington, but it's happening everywhere.
As the property market is increasingly dominated by corporate interest, it's starting to behave like a monopoly because they all cooperate to fix prices as high as they think they can get away with.
Now if a responsible and high-functioning person working full time, making significantly more than minimum wage, can only barely qualify to live indoors, where does that leave people who don't quite have their shit together? And when they can't find a place to live, do you think that helps or hurts their ability to get their shit together? Do you think they would become more motivated to be a responsible citizen or do you think they would feel bitter and resentful towards a society that doesn't treat them like a person?
The Kim Williams used to be so nice. I would go swimming just upstream from the dog park… until I saw a man drop his drawers and deposit some hot diarrhea directly into the water. Dude why directly in the river? Why not in the woods off the trail? Why in general do so many of the homeless have such an indignant watch the world burn attitude and why do so many educated and affluent leaders in Missoula continue to try and enable their destruction of our community?
It’s usually driven by mental illness, usually very treatable.
But that would require a functioning social safety net, a non profit health care system, and a judicial system aimed at restoration and rehabilitation instead of punishment
Great questions. Last summer I saw people crapping in the streets and one really memorable experience was a homeless woman giving fellatio to a homeless man. It happened right in front of Jimmy Johns on a saturday morning. By the time the cops got there they were finished...
There are many communities who are able to house individuals that have been living on the street due to severe substance use or mental health issues in permanent supportive housing (PSH). This is what Blue Heron is on Mullan Rd. In best case scenario the housing is extremely low barrier like able to not sign the lease right away, looser rules around substance use and over all lease compliance. The entire goal is to prolong the process of potential lease termination while providing 24/7 supportive services on site. This type of housing has been incredibly successful with low eviction and lease termination rates.
People need shelter to address any need higher than survival. People need time to adjust to living in an apartment after being on the street for potentially decades. They have to learn how to live inside and abide by social norms. Some PSH units even have balconies or fenced in courtyards so people can sleep in those areas while they adjust to living indoors.
Housing people reduces recidivism and inappropriate Emergency Department utilization, which in turn reduces burn out for all types of front line workers. PSH is a great option for people who are described as “frequent utilizers of emergency services” like shelters, jail, ED etc. there is an almost immediate decrease in all services once they enter housing.
If you want to learn more I suggest visiting the Corporation of Supportive Housing website. They have done amazing work across the US including supporting Missoula in its goal to be successful in their FUSE (frequent users of system engagement) and PSH programs.
The part I can never sort out in my head is I can’t do whatever I want and neither can other upstanding citizens, why can these people do whatever they want? I am all for services helping people on the edge, or trying to get back on their feet, or with psychiatric or drug issues get help. My tax dollars can go to all of that happily, but the people who cause problems, mess with my life and safety, or harm the public in any way, need to be stopped. I have yet to hear a satisfactory justification for why the homeless are not bound by the same social contract the rest of us are
I once owned a business downtown and sometimes, after hours, we would go grab a drink from a bar across the alley and bring it back to have while cleaning. A cop friend warned me that we better be careful because we could get an open container ticket. I’m like, what are you talking about?! We aren’t drinking it on the street like the homeless did EVERY day in front of our business. Do they get tickets? He said there’s no point in ticketing them because they won’t pay. They only ticket people who look like they can pay, otherwise it’s a waste of taxpayer money. 🤦♀️
I understand that though. Are they going to throw every one of them in jail? That's even more expensive and a bit ridiculous. If you have absolutely nothing to lose why care about some dumb open container law.
It's not so much that they won't pay, but that a judge isn't allowed to fine you more than you can reasonably afford. If you are homeless you likely have no income and therefore can not pay anything so the charge is dropped in court.
There was a set amount for an open container ticket. It was something like $150. But yes, that’s why it would have been a waste of taxpayer money to cite them. I thought that was clear in my OP.
They don't give a shit about a social contract, that's where your argument fails. The houseless people you're talking about (I actually currently live in my van with my dog btw, we are healthy and clean) are too mentally ill, have been too abused or exploited, turned to drugs and alcohol to keep warm and to cope, or have straight up given up on society coming to rescue them.
What is your solution? Locking people up costs way more than anyone wants to spend and there isn't space anyways.
The incredible rise in homeless is directly related to the insane costs of housing and the serious undersupply of housing in this country.
Two tiered solution: 1 for people who are poor and one for those who are addicts/ mentally ill. I don’t think those two groups deserve to be combined as I don’t think it serves either group.
For the addicts I propose something like a 4 step rehab.
1. Detox period, get them past the physical addiction, this would look a lot like rehabs today.
2. Inpatient group therapy, let’s get people talking to each other and dealing with their demons together. I don’t think people outside those demo’s really know what it’s like.
3. Some sort of CCC style program like the New Deal. Those that can work are put into building infrastructure, trades, whatever the case is but in isolation from the general public. They get paid but it’s held onto until they are ready for reintegration.
4. Half way house style. Working, living a bit in the public but still with guidance/ safety nets. When they are ready full freedom and welcome back to the annoying world of HOA’s and alarm clocks. I Realize some may never make it or be too far gone but I’d like us to try.
The mentally ill who can’t function in our society should be institutionalized, not like before let’s keep it humane, but I think overall it’s more humane than making these people live on streets.
For the poor and downtrodden we need more housing and more access to housing. I’d rather see so many apartment structures built rent is a non factor for americans but perhaps that’s too much to ask for.
On one hand, part of me feels providing services to the homeless tends to only draw more homeless.
On the other hand, the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Chairman was here last week and during the townhall, an audience member asked Mr. Kashkari about housing. I can't remember his answer but the audience member was managing some dozen housing projects in the county and all are stalled at the bureaucratic level. It's difficult to expect the homeless and low income to be respectful to a city and county with such extreme housing supply inelasticity when they know full-well many Missoulians are struggling to afford housing.
Would the homeless be able to pay for the housing? Would they take care of the housing? Do you think that a population of dual diagnosed people, in active addiction want to change their lifestyle? Most of the homeless people are not from Montana. It's just that Missoula is a soft place to land.
I came in from out of state on Amtrak while recovering from an addiction and lived out of my backpack for a while. Managed to land a job, buy a truck, rent an apartment and take some classes at UM. 10+ years later I have a family, own my home and happily pay my property taxes. All because the community took a chance and gave me a hand up. Didn’t spend more than a few weeks on the street. Without a cheap apartment available at the time I probably would have not managed to keep that job. We have pulled the ladder up with us.
Having gone through a rehab myself, there's a huge mentality difference between somebody down on his luck and needing a little respite and hand back up to get situated again-- addiction complicates it, but you stay around and can pick out who's looking to get back in the saddle themselves and who just wants to go in the wagon.
There's enough services available for people in a position of needing a hand up. They might be transient homeless, a few weeks or a month to figure out their situation, resources, and wait for an opening, but they realize that they're at a point to swallow their pride and get the help.
The bigger problem is the parenting failures who believe that everything should be handed to them. They'll go to rehab or a shelter when the weather gets cold out of self preservation, but then they'll get mad that they're in a structured environment and go right back out on their own come warmer weather.
They need a Twin Oaks commune to go to and figure out how to make something for themselves if structure is too difficult. Once they can advance to a cooperative tribal society, then we can work on society reintegration.
Not all unhoused people are criminal or “users.” When will society realize that what’s needed is a way to get off the streets into a stable environment for those who desire it?
Say I want a job that I’m more than qualified for. I happen to have been a renter and lost my home to a wildfire, along with 25,000 people. Even though I had renters insurance, I lost everything. The nearest city has a population of about 100k….university town. I’m unable to find housing due to the high demand so I now live in my only possession…..my car. Who will hire me? I don’t have a place to cook or clean. As a matter of fact, I smell like onions.
Even though this is a scenario of what could happen(and probably has) I just get so bothered by those who assume all unhoused people are on the streets because they’re losers. Those people are humans. They are us. Be compassionate and kind.
I made a comment earlier up the thread but this is a good example of what I'm talking about. The situation you're describing is not what everyone in town is pissed off about. I think most people empathize with that kind of situation and are willing to help. The problem is the other kind of homeless. That have zero desire to do anything but drugs every single day. That leave their trash everywhere. That commit crimes and harass people on the street. When you hear this vitriol about the homeless 99% of the time it's those people they're talking about. We need to figure out how to get the first type help without the second type ruining it for everyone. Because right now they very much are.
Addiction is a disease. Not an active choice people are making. You are literally "othering" people right now. "Oh no, they aren't the good ones, they are "the others!" Same shit racists use to make them feel like they aren't racist. "Oh I try to help the homeless. Of course! Just not THOSE types of homeless."
You should educate yourself on what addiction actually is. Otherwise it feels like I'm talking to a toddler who has no grasp on the real world.
"Nobody forced you to join the military. And now you want support for PTSD? Nobody is forcing you to continue having PTSD!" Lol.
Mental health issues, trauma, and genetics are all huge drivers for addiction. Very very very few people just go “huh it’d be fun to start using hard drugs.” Your “shitty life choices” are likely someone else’s only easily available way to self medicate or cope, ESPECIALLY once they have become homeless. Do you understand the incredible lack of support and help for addicts without financial resources? Your attitude about this makes me so very sad. Empathy and compassion cost nothing.
Until society figures this shit out these people need to be locked up. Maybe after some time we can figure a way for in patient addiction while incarcerated, like Rhode Island has successfully established. Until then, no more shitting on the sidewalk and leaving needles in the park. Straight to jail.
I thought OPs position was “why can’t Missoula adopt the same policies that have solved homelessness that every other city in the country has adopted cause no where else has a homeless problem”?
Definitely not because the only shelter in town is a nightmare palace and it's literally life threatening to live outside but ok
Not everyone with mental illness has a substance problem but I dare you to spend a month at either shelter sober without getting psychotic
So then rehab should be free so they can get the help they need. These are other humans you are talking about. would you like it if someone dehumanized you for the choices you made in your life?
Stop seeing humans as less and start seeing them as people.
If you're mother went homeless would be acting that way( assuming you and your mother get on of course).
Lol, these resources are being gutted every day by folks who "don't want to pay for handouts". These same people think that somehow cutting off services to homeless people will just make them evaporate into the sky and be gone forever. Nope. You will just have people who are even more desperate than before. If the rest of the state had any sort of support systems we wouldn't be overrun. If the poverty wasn't so small and underfunded, we wouldn't be overrun. If we had city sponsored camps that could be secured, have drug testing stations to prevent overdoses, have robust vocational rehab programs, and a reformed prison system for low level offenders, we would be in a much better position. NOT to mention if there wasn't a literal housing crisis, wage stagnation, and we had any sort of upward mobility for the lower classes... But those are long term goals.
You should REALLY be mad at corporations for causing our current economic situation, and not homeless mentally ill people just trying to survive in a place where people working two jobs are still struggling in.
Go volunteer at the pov and then tell me that we have all of the support services that we need, and it's realistic for people to get help when they are an abused single mother, or a heroin addict, or have PTSD, or have a serious injury, or have mental illness. You have zero clue what you re talking about. Come down when I volunteer and say hi. I'll show you around.
We take teenagers of both genders there to volunteer. Lol. It's not that scary. Y'all treat homeless people like zombies. You don't have to cower from homeless people. It's not what you think it is. But yes, YWCA is amazing.
Let the record show that I was a drug abusing, PTSD homeless person living on the street for three years. I got sick of destroying my life and found help. Also, let the record show that only 11% of homeless people make that change permanent.
So you’re saying: 1- there’s no poverty in Missoula, 2- Missoula has adequate drug treatment services, 3- Missoula has adequate mental health services, 4- in Missoula, it’s east for someone working full time making minimum wage to find housing. Because all these are true, these people are homeless/drug users because they aren’t trying hard enough?
I think what s/he's saying is there is a group of people in Missoula who are homeless and create problems for the rest of us, because they are often so out of it they shit in the river, pass out inside our houses (yes, that happened to a friend of mine), block the walking path, steal, etc. We're not talking about people who are poor and struggling and may find themselves homeless. It's possible to distinguish between these two groups. to be in favor of more treatment/mental health services, and to be fed up with people who trash the river.
I think we need to build a tiny home community for homeless housing. The tents are not a long term solution. I'd be willing to bet that it's cheaper to house the homeless than to let them stay on the streets. I've been homeless myself due to a domestic violence situation, so I have great sympathy for them. Just a thought.
Love the hasty generalizations and assumptions made about homeless people by OP… not every homeless person is insolent, inactive, and entitled to take over the city.. many have fallen victim to unfortunate circumstances and are unable to get by with the cost of living constantly increasing and a lack of affordable housing in the area. This lack of housing creates a tough competition for whatever reasonably-priced units that are actually available and it can be difficult even for employed people to secure a rental without a perfect credit score or an affluent co-signer and a triple-deposit. There are many barriers to housing that have nothing to do with income including poor credit, imperfect rental history, previous criminal record, mental health and/or addiction issues, lack of support in finding/utilizing resources, strict inflexible criteria for applicants imposed by both property management companies and private landlords alike, sky-rocketing rent and utility prices (and everything else as well), gaps in rental history, stigma by landlords if applicants have been unhoused for any length of time, difficulty finding a place that allows pets or has enough bedrooms for children, being married to someone with any of the above issues or trouble finding a suitable roommate that does not have any of the above issues, having high-interest debts or costly medical issues, etc etc. I have a respectable full time job in healthcare with a decent hourly wage with bonuses and shift differentials and benefits included and I have been homeless for almost 3 years now. I lost my job during the pandemic after the quarantine/mandatory shutdowns causing my formerly successful business to suddenly tank and leaving me without a source of income. Unemployment wasn’t enough to sustain myself and I ended up taking out a few high-interest credit cards just to survive. I was forced to quickly find new job amidst the chaos, while living in Bozeman finishing my last semester at msu to get my BS. My father had just recently moved to Montana, where I’d lived since 2009, to be closer to me when he had a serious heart attack. He was flown to Missoula and I drove there right away to be with him and visit him at the hospital whenever I could, which took a toll on my mental health and my academic-life. Sadly, my dad never fully-recovered and a few months later, he suffered another heart attack and passed away at the hospital in Missoula. The next day I was Tboned by a hit and run drunk driver with no headlights on driving a black car at night during a torrential downpour on a poorly lit street. My car was near totaled and my insurance didn’t cover it so I was essentially broke and stuck in Missoula. I was with my beloved boyfriend, whom I was totally in love with despite his lack of finances bc he was my true soulmate. Problem is, unbeknownst to me, he was also a closet drug addict with narcissistic tendencies and was leading a double life. He left me after informing me of his infidelities and affairs with several different women throughout the course of our 2 year relationship and immediately moving into his affair partner’s apartment in Missoula while I stayed in hotels. I fell behind and had to withdrawal from my last month of school but was too depressed to figure out how to do it in time so I just got Fs on all my group and solo projects, reports, and finals after maintaining a perfect 4.0 average prior. My car was finally fixed enough to drive back to Bozeman just in time to move out of my apartment since my lease was up and I could no longer afford it since my landlord had forced my roommate to move out after she was suicidal and called emergency services to the apartment one night, stating it violated the neighbors right to a peaceful environment. I was now responsible to pay the full amount of the rent instead of half and I couldn’t afford it.
The landlord flat out refused to accept aide from Montanal Emergency rental Assistance even though I qualified because he didn’t want to wait the 30 days or so that it would take for my app to be approved. I opted to take what I could fit in my car and move to Missoula where it was much less expensive to rent compared to Bozeman. I applied at the hospital for a position in my field and have worked there for close to 2 years now. However, my landlord in Bozeman charged me a ton of money with no explanation of why or how and immediately sent it to collections. I worked as a tech FT for 40+ hrs a week but I still couldn’t find a place bc there was absolutely nothing at the time. I didn’t have many friends in Missoula and no family so I used my paychecks to live in cheap hotels and airbnbs for a long time, spending almost every cent I made on living expenses and still unable to make payments on any of my credit cards or debts or save for a security deposit and first months rent. My once immaculate credit score had plummeted so far that no properties in Missoula would accept me, especially not after seeing the landlord debt on my report. I was getting burnt out from working overtime just to survive living in overpriced hotels. My mental health deteriorated exponentially as no property would give me a chance or approve me. I had put my name on Missoula housing authority waitlist years ago and my name finally came up. I was living in my car at this point. I was denied for making too much money despite the cut in my hours for mental health reasons that would amount to far less than it had the previous year and well within the hud limitations. But they refused to reflect my current circumstances in their calculations and after years of waiting the opportunity had been shot down in an instant. I couldn’t get a case manager or qualify for any assistance bc I made too much money aka actually had a job and wasn’t completely incapable and inept or have kids or addiction issues or terminal illnesses and wasn’t a veteran or a minority or have zero income. So I ended up basically living in my vehicle bc I wasn’t poor enough even though I was in fact very poor and couldn’t afford food on some days and only got to shower o once a week if that and getting to work is a huge challenge but I still do bc I have to or there is no survival and I probably would end up just like the people you see hanging around the pov and Johnson street shelter, etc. Being homeless doesn’t look like that when it begins, these people have unfortunate or tragic circumstance that gradually bring them to that level and those people need help and services for sure. I just wish there was also help and services available to those of us who are riding the line of making too much money for affordable housing or many assistance programs but have other barriers to housing that keep us unhoused from one bad rental reference or excessive debt or lack of verifiable rental history bc only hotels would accept me, or a partner with a criminal history and addiction issues (even though he’s sober and turned over a new leaf), or an unfair landlord debt I have no chance of paying on my own until I can find a cheaper place to live that’s not my car in the dead of winter, or don’t qualify for programs since I don’t have children or HIV or full disability or I’m not a veteran or I just don’t have money to throw away on application fees only to be rejected anyway no matter what. This hopelessness is what brings people to that level of non functionality and poverty and trauma and mental illness and they may have started out with a 4.0 and perfect credit and perfect rental history and a generous income at one point but it can happen to anyone… so just remember that they are suffering the most of any of us, fighting for survival daily and it’s no one’s place to judge them for that when what they really need is help.
There are people in Missoula who will view the criminal, littering, loitering, drug using, insolent, entitled homeless as victims who just need a hug and some free stuff no matter how many problems they cause. I doubt any of those holier-than-thou bleeding hearts live in areas where they have to regularly share space with people who treat themselves and their surroundings like garbage.
I think the beginning of a solution involves tough love, stricter code enforcement, and higher expectations of the people receiving services. But as long as those who loudly tout their status as “empaths” assuage their internalized guilt by “loving their unhoused neighbors,” nothing here will change.
I am a lifelong democrat, but this is one issue that could sway me to cross the aisle.
I completely agree with OP. I'm a lifelong democrat, but the next candidate to take a hardline stance on this issue is getting my vote, I'm tired of it and it's a danger to our community.
Strict code enforcements, lol really. You wanna put non violent homeless people in the jails!!??!? That would literally quadruple the cost on the normal taxpayer.
You realize that incarcerating people for non-violent things mostly just turns them into violent criminals once they get out rather than reforming anybody, right?
Shhhhhhhh……this is Missoula, dang nabbit!
I’ll shit my britches before I hear some fast talking city slicker knocking down the “just throw them in jail” argument with logic and common sense.
I don’t believe your label of non-violent is necessarily accurate. I think you’d find the same folks who are leaving needles and shitting on the the sidewalk are also pulling knives on each other and trading stolen guns for more dope. Wake up.
lol. That’s an interesting and completely inaccurate interpretation of what code enforcement means. I said nothing about putting people in jail for blocking streets and sidewalks with trash and personal belongings.
The leadership in Missoula for a decade has done so much more for the transient drug addicts than the average person in Missoula. They just don't care. They want to virtue signal and score woke points and are completely incompetent or indifferent to the issues of the normal citizen. How did we respond? Electing a very pro homeless mayor. It's so frustrating. They treat us like a piggy bank and our only reward is getting our rivers trashed and our public spaces taken over. I keep wondering when enough is going to be enough but I don't think it's ever going to change.
Our mayor has a great skill set for addressing homelessness, which is quite different than being pro-homeless. There's only so much she can do with limited resources, though. I'm waiting to see what she comes up with.
We'll see. I have a feeling her policy is going to be to throw more money at shelters which is just going to attract more outsiders to Missoula to leech off the handouts.
We ABSOLUTELY need more money for shelters. The pov is completely overrun and underfunded.
Go complain to the rest of the state who ships their homeless here because they have literally zero resources anywhere else besides Bozeman, Billings, and Missoula.
I'm guessing your solution is something like cut off their resources and kick them out of town. Right? That will SURELY solve the problem.
Calm down, don't be so paranoid, and invest in programs that are shown to be effective *when they have proper funding.* (That last part is key, because y'all like to slash budgets for programs and then claim that the programs are ineffective after you handicap them.)
Go yell at the sky about taxes. Lol.
And yeah while we are at it, fuck the police for taking our tax dollars and only giving speeding tickets or eating donuts. You're right! They are pretty ineffective. There is still tons of crime and drugs on our streets. So I say we save our tax dollars and get the socialist police organization out of Missoula! Other towns in Montana have less cops, but less crime, so the statistics make sense!
Why reform programs and make them better to solve problems when we can just do away with them completely, and every citizen can spend an extra 2 dollars that would have gone to social services on potato chips instead!
Fucking insane logic y'all follow.
You have been brainwashed to think that all taxes are evil.
They released a report recently that suggets not really. Most homeless in Missoula are from Missoula or nearby rural communities. There may be some from further away, but generally most are actually local. That being said, the report has a lot of variability, it's hard to enumerate folks that generally don't want to be enumerated. But from who they were able to talk to, it seems like unhoused fols are from here or close to here and not being shipped around the nation.
Study link here:
[https://www.missoulapartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Economic-Impact-of-Homelessness-1.pdf](https://www.missoulapartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Economic-Impact-of-Homelessness-1.pdf)
What a rough life we have here in Missoula. God forbid we have to deal with the homeless! It’s unfair. Also what will the rich tourists think!!??? They would never buy a second home here if they knew we had 125 homeless people here
You all cry about it but also enable it all with radical permissiveness because of an idiotically misguided sense of compassion. It's called pathological altruism and Missoula, Portland and all the big cities suffer a terminal case of it. You are all part of the problem.
Its called empathy, patience, and not hating people because they are poor and mentally ill. Go move to a smaller city if Missoula is too much. If you don't like it, git out! Lol.
It should tell you something about your personality when we would rather live around homeless people shitting in the streets than you. Pathological altruism sounds like an amazing problem to have compared to pathological hatred.
If you care about those who are in poverty and suffer from mental illness, you should care about the insane amount of resources that get wasted by these policies that favor people who abuse the system continuously, to the detriment of those who really need them, destroy public spaces, which in turn adds more stress to the public burden and raise crime rates.
Your understanding of reality is childlike.
It has been shown time and time again that the "waste" of these programs is marginal, and the benefits of well funded, well run programs are astronomical. It's literally like .0001% of the waste of other government programs such as the military, farmers welfare subsidies, and building border walls. It's not an insane amount of resources. There aren't even enough resources to begin with for these programs because they are continually hamstrung by policies based on opinions like yours.
This is a embarrassingly uniformed take. Military budgets come from federal allocations, while these programs take money from cities and counties, so they aren't competing budgetary items.
In a city like Missoula, which constantly has money issues and that relies more and more on additional levies to support basic things like schooling and the fire department, these programs, on top of being wasteful and ineffective are an affront to anyone who pays taxes.
And most evaluations about the wastefulness of those programs are always loaded and dishonest, conducted by the agencies themselves or by their selective publishing of data. But even that is beside the point. The fact is that I don't want a single cent of the money I paid to the city to go to some junkie who litters the river with needles, defecates in parks and exposes himself to women who are out for a walk. If that makes me a Republican to you, I've been called worse and I don't care what you think.
That’s dumb, they are fellow Americans with no where else to go. You just want out of sight out of mind so you can sleep better. You are the problem, vote for republican profits over people policies and complain when you have to see the inevitable consequences
You're a perfect encapsulation of the problem. You think that "empathy" is equivalent to throwing endless money and resources at junkies who have no desire to improve themselves and have no sense of community or respect for others. You treat them as helpless children and they will always have their way.
You are willing to maintain this attitude even when it's clear that this extreme permissiveness has started eroding the fabric of the community and deteriorated public life to a pretty serious degree. You have no empathy for the ones who suffer the consequences of this shit, you just like to be politically theatrical and visible. You're a buffoon, like everyone else who supports this shit.
Maybe if they scare away visitors places will become more affordable for people that have grew up here and are from here. Stay in side if ur scared. Sissy
We went across town on bikes via the Bitterroot branch trail near the johnson street shelter a few weeks ago, and the little tent city was so close to/on the path, that we literally had to ride our bikes over their pile of clothes and blankets that were strewn out of the front of the tent and across the whole width of the path.
You pretty much have to be intentional to be that inconsiderate. And then one of the tent guys had the nerve to yell at me to slow down. Excuse me, it's a bike path, moron.
I was just downtown yesterday. Had a great lunch with my dad and brother at Double Front then walked to Big Sky Buds (best edibles in town). I know there’s a lot of issues like any city, but people act like downtown is Fallujah in ‘08 bad lol.
I'm not saying I feel unsafe or anything. I just don't think anything downtown is worth the annoyance of finding parking (then paying for it) or stepping over homeless people. Lol
Voting red is what gets you this. Stripping away infrastructure, budget cuts, no real solutions besides “stop being homeless” or “get a job”, these are all trademarks of red politicians. Seen it time and time again all over this country
There's nothing down town that interests me enough to deal with the inconvenience of going downtown. We live in one of the most beautiful areas in the country. Why would I want to go waste time on concrete to eat overpriced food that isn't good and shop at stores that are overpriced all while dodging homeless drug addicts?
While no one is better than anyone else there are difference's between meth addicted, mentally ill, criminals and people that work for a living and follow laws. There was a study done in New York using 600 homeless people. The study showed that only one person was homeless due to circumstances beyond their control. The others were addicts, alcoholics, felons on the lam, vets that had PTSD & other afflictions. These vets had places to go but chose to live on the streets.
Here in Missoula the homeless don't need ID's for services. So, are the people on the street rapists, child molesters or just the run of the mill thieves?
Why can't we start a Thunderdome of bums? Give them weapons... everything from a stapler to flame thrower. Then pair them against other bums or the wildlife... the announcer is the guy who runs missoula mugs. 😂 Shout out to the frequent flyer Constance ✌
Good thing I never signed that contract. Get fucked and go live in the woods if you are that scared of people pooping in a river. Lolol. We're coming for you, your family and your stuff, so you better run out of town, pussy.
My plight is fine thanks. I have a job, own a house, and am doing perfectly fine. I'm just willing to help others who are struggling. Still coming for you though. Move out of town please.
No it's actually the dog owners such as urself that harass the homeless that are the real leaders /s
One of Montanas biggest industries next to agriculture is healthcare, the local government subsidizes and turns a blind eye to treatment centers and rehabs and senior living that build here for the low overhead and ignorant workforce. They drag vulnerable people here under the guise of treatment then abandon them for all manner of reasons. As a child I was one of them and have been stuck here dealing with neglect from the underfunded systems who made their buck and spat me out.
Don't like it? Leave.
Our local businesses? You mean our dispensaries? Haha. Missoula’s middle class is dead. Only rich people can afford houses in this town. It only makes sense that the streets be filled with shit of the poor.
You're obviously ignorant of the homeless statistics. These people are generally from other cities and states. In the winter, they migrate to warmer clients like Phoenix and LA. As it gets warmer they come back to Missoula. For most of these people, it is a chosen lifestyle.
When it comes to local businesses, there are restaurants, breweries, clothing stores, etc. These businesses employ local people. We've seen local business's close and people lose their jobs. . .As the homeless invade the town, crap all over the side walk, physically and verbally attack others all while using city services that tax payers fund.
Housing everywhere in the USA is expensive but that doesn't give the green light for people to be outside the rules of society.
The rules of society created the homeless . . . And a study was just done showing that Missoula’s homeless population is largely from Montana. My mother is currently homeless and she’s a sweet old lady who got priced out of her house of 25+ years. So don’t talk to me about ignorance you fucking Yuppy.
I'm sorry to hear about your mom. Why haven't you taken her in to live with you? Why aren't you working a few jobs to care for her? How could you let your mom suffer? You're a disgraceful son genx boy.
I live in a tiny 1 bedroom apartment. She house sits for me when I’m out of town for work. And stays with other family members and friends while she’s on the 4 year wait list for section 8. She’s 78 and lives off of $900/month. Is she on the streets doing meth? No. But she is homeless, nonetheless. I make 62k a year. I’m currently saving for a house. It’s going to take some time and she will eventually live with me. But this is all to say, I think your anger about homeless is misplaced when you should be more upset that our society has allowed so many people slip through the cracks.
I think we can be angry about the systemic problems that create homelessness and frustrated by a SUBSET of the homeless that cause problems. It's not an either or thing.
We're not talking about your mother, as I noted in my earlier comment. I'm really sorry she lost her home. My guess is she's not out on the streets high on meth/fentanyl, blocking the river trail or otherwise making a nuisance of herself.
This is a D-bag thread. Too many people assume shit about homeless people, just like you assume I don’t work. Sit down and enjoy your trickle down economics and don’t be surprised when it starts to trickle into the streets.
Used to be, back in the day, that you could drive through Yellowstone and the bears would hang out by the side of the road and the tourists could feed them. This went on for a while and the bears, taking the easy path, trolled the tourists for snacks rather than going out and doing the normal bear-method of finding a meal. This went on for a while to the point that it became detrimental to the bears and a safety hazard to the tourons. If a bear approached a vehicle and didnt get a snack, or enough snacks, it might become aggressive. At that point, things got ugly and men with guns were needed. So, to give the bears motivation to go back to the previously normal way of getting bears fed, the park people made it against the rules to feed the wildlife. They removed the 'free meal' part of the equation for the bears and now the bears actually had to go out and look for food. Bear-human conflict dropped, less bears were destroyed, and the bears went back to being bears and finding food in bear ways.
The parallels are pretty obvious.
I bet you thought how funny your comment was gonna be, but the downvotes tell the story of how unoriginal not funny, not relevant and low effort it really was.
No, the downvotes (all seven of them at the time of my comment... lol) simply indicate how many people reading EdenPastora's comment decided to clickety-click the little down arrow. And if you've been around r/missoula much, you'll know that the vast majority of its leftist audience simply won't be able to comprehend the wisdom in EdenPastora's comment.
As opposed to what, the great and girthy member necessary to whimper about the terrible inconvenience that is thrust upon you by the existence of homeless people? What manly feat will you be accomplishing next? Perhaps wailing at how terrified you are of refugees? Screeching at the injustice of having to share a sidewalk with someone in a wheelchair? Or perhaps you'll surprise us with your bravery and start roaring over the resources spent to treat infant cancer patients?
The influx of a large transient substance abusing population to Missoula has completely changed the vibe of the city, especially in the heart of downtown and also near the Johnson Street shelter. I think it's important to distinguish this group from Missoula's more typical homeless, such as those who can't afford housing, may be living out of their cars or couch surfing. The two groups need different approaches and services. The former group causes the trouble, and many (all?) have been 86ed from the shelters. We need some solutions, such as temporary housing and a campground for these people, and stricter enforcement that channels them to these two options. Why, for example, doesn't the city build a temporary campground in Silver Park? I realize there will be opposition, but they're camping there or nearby already. Make it official and sanitary. There are hidden consequences to the current untenable situation that affect the rest of us: 1st responders burn out, which impacts any of us who need their services; we are now a city where many people don't feel safe and we have to put up with petty crime that didn't exist here all that long ago; our beautiful river is threatened by all the trash.
Your first paragraph is a very important distinction that doesn't get talked about enough.
I agree. We have homeless here and always have, and now we have this newer situation of street people who are usually dealing with addictions and serious mental health problems. We offer them very little and they create a lot of mayhem. I had a brother like this who passed away a few years ago. His problems started at age 5 with a head injury. My mom kept him off the streets by paying for his housing and sometimes food, which created some resentment from some of his siblings. So, it's not just in the streets, of course, it's in our families too.
Thanks for your comment. Last year there was a homeless camp on Clark Fork Road near the Wal Mart on Mullen. The city did a good job making sure that the camp had everything someone would need to live...The camp was trashed, porta potties were turned over and the city ended up taking at least 3 tons of trash out of the camp. The homeless people living in the camp destroyed the place.
I guess the answer is to have 24/7 security. I know the city tried something like this closer to downtown with poor results, but I was told security was an issue. At the least, any campground would need daily maintenance, just like a regular campground.
They had 24/7 security. Why can't people pick up after themselves? It is too much to ask to throw trash in a dumpster?
you’re applying (understandable) normative logic to an issue that is neither. people don’t behave in the ways you describe because they’re coping well with the demands life placed/places on them. the framework for solutions has to revolve around their priorities for day-to-day living and definitions of security/home/belonging, not someone else’s. that said, i don’t have a solution. but i hear your frustration.
Why isn’t the answer make them play nice in the sandbox or else deny them access to the sandbox? Is there any science to support sanctioned homeless camps are good for those people? Beyond the science how is this an ethical and reasonable use of taxpayer resources, let alone the environmental impact? Help them get out of homeless sure but the idea that this is somehow humane is absurd. Maybe we clean people up and those that can function end up spending some time doing CCC style work, earn some cash and rehabilitate before actually reintegrating with society. I just don’t see how endorsing and supporting this type of living is good for anyone, especially the people living like this
I agree, but you're going to have to change the law first. For example, how do you clean people up who don't want to get cleaned up? I'm in favor of services an work programs, but I also want a practical solution that addresses the problem quickly. And we're not going to avoid spending money on the problem. A lot of money, unfortunately.
I kind of wonder if it would be more money than the current local service cost between law enforcement, medical services, and incarceration. Maybe the start up cost would be more but within a few years it becomes less than the status quo?
I've seen it numerous times that sometimes homelessness is their choice. I've talked to a few who told me as such. They don't want to be a cog in the system. They will do jobs under the table and panhandle but they don't want to assimilate. Two different friends do social work type stuff - one more physical and the other more mental. The first worked at a shelter where they would have a bed, meal, help with rent, etc... a friend helped this one guy who was all on board, at first. Once he got a job and had a place to live he decided he didn't want to do it anymore. It wasn't who he was and he liked the way he lived. Another friend who worked at a mental health clinic, has had numerous homelessness come to the clinic for a bed, food, shower... coworkers and her will go and talk to them but get met with hostility. They have issues with folks trying to steal medication which wasn't necessary as the clinic will give them free of charge. No pain pills though which is usually what they want. They want to help them but you can only help those who want help.
All true. I've worked in social services myself. Change is hard, and relapse is a given with some populations. I don't care if a person wants to camp out and not assimilate. But I don't think they should be camping in the floodplain where the stuff they leave behind will end up in the river during spring runoff. Thus, the suggestion of a designated campground.
Science shows that you need public housing corporations that build places suitable for a mix of social situations. Concentrating disadvantaged people into shelters leads to these problems. Low barrier social housing puts a baseline cheap rent for people that work while also providing a place that folks who don’t have the facilities to work to be part of society rather than on the outskirts. Finland eliminated homelessness with these programs and has a better track record at helping people recover from substance abuse. https://www.munifin.fi/whats-new/finnish-system-for-affordable-social-housing-supports-social-mixing-and-brings-down-homelessness/
Yes, what Finland did is the right idea. Of course, that's in a country that prioritizes people instead of capital. Sometimes I think we're going to have to rely on a volunteer system along with grants and tax-based funding to address a huge problem that is pressing on communities throughout the country. In other words, some of us with the resources need to pony up, because government isn't going to do it all.
What does low barrier social housing mean? I get the sense we could and should help people on the edge stay in dwellings of their own. But I cannot see how the type of people OP is talking about are going to have their issues solved by lowering the bar of housing. And obviously Finland is a wildly different nation than the US
"And obviously Finland is a wildly different place than the US." As a European living in Missoula and the US for over a decade this just makes me roll my eyes. I find this line of thinking extremely defeatist. We're all humans and we should actually be trying to take care of these people who cannot take care of themselves. You can either actually help them, ignore the problem and spend lots of money on half-assed measured which ends up costing more than actually helping them (We are here), or ship them off somewhere else to be somebody else's problem (Let's not do this). If we start giving a fuck about other humans here and understand that some people are just not going to be capable of integrating with current societal norms and make some humane hard decisions and accept that this WILL cost money then we can make some headway. It can be from drugs, because of drugs, from mental health issues, because of mental health issues, or any combination thereof building upon each other that causes these people to need to be taken care of. Closing the asylums was a huge contributor to this issue. Asylums provide housing, medication, hygiene, reeducation and job skills programs, and food. We do all of these things in a half-assed method already which clearly isn't working. Then we need other programs for mentally healthy and physically able people who are homeless due to normal circumstances. This could happen to ANY of us from sickness or a multiple of other causes. I think we lack empathy for the homeless because they aren't us while we sit around and pretend this can't happen to us because we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. The people in this latter category can easily fall into the former category without help. It could happen to any of us. I think the fact we are allowing this homelessness to take place, and the attitude that we have about it, says a lot about our society. A supposedly Christian society based on the values of a deity who told us to give our all to our neighbors and have love for one another as for ourselves. The church tithes could certainly go a long way towards contributing to these costs along with not half-assing how we spend the taxdollars we earmark for these people as is.
You said a lot and I’m not going to respond to all of it but generally I agree with you on everything except the weird christian thing at the bottom. Not only is this not a christian nation definitionally but church attendance and affiliation is way way down from what it was even a few decades ago. Also Churches are often one of the largest providers of care for the needy in communities, which includes Missoula. There are a number of church organizations I’ve worked with in Missoula that are well meaning and dedicated tons of volunteer hours to this issue in various ways. Also I don’t think it’s defeatist to say the US & Europe are different. The situation with drugs and access to care is radically different at a policy level. It isn’t as simple as “make America Finland”, even if there is a strong argument that policy in other countries is more successful at addressing issues we also experience
What works is that once they are stabilized in housing and other basic needs are met, then other concerns that go unmet in a state of survival on the streets can then be addressed. Like addressing mental health, immense amounts of trauma, substance abuse/misuse, education, employment, etc. Again, wishing these people away does nothing. And this is by far the best approach we have to helping to socialize people who have been in a complete counter culture for far too long.
I think homeless is too broad of a term. Working poor or people who just plain have bad luck should have all the opportunities we can afford to not put them on the street. With that I agree stabilizing housing is the answer. With the severely mentally ill/ drug addict demographic I can’t see that working, especially the addict group. Their basic needs are secondary to their addiction, if they can sell what you provide them for drugs they will. No nice answers to that problem.
That is just dumb, and horribly prejudiced.
Finland’s population is less than 6 million, taxes are higher. In theory it works but would never work in US. States rights, 50 different taxation statutes. I see mostly addicts & mentally ill… these folks aren’t accepting help to get well; they only want handouts (I live on the Westside). Now the city is installing Narcan vending machines. This is enablement. I thought I was a liberal until I moved to Missoula. These idiots trying to run the city have flown the coop.
It is the only thing that has solid research and trials that fixes homelessness that I can find. All the other solutions just put a band aid on it. People love to complain but solid and cohesive demands by the community makes things happen. We could solve housing and homelessness but it’s going to take 20 years of building and development to catch up with demand. Human beings need sanitary living conditions or else you get crime and drug addiction that cost more to the community than the housing would.
The only reason it doesn't work in the US is because we don't want to do it.
I agree. I think it destroys any dignity that these folks might have...
Having people watch you shit in the street because you have nowhere else to go would feel edifying to my dignity.
well-said.
The camp out by Walmart has 24/7 security
You cant help people who refuse to help themselves. You can try but the drug will always be more important until they themselves cant take it anymore and want a better life.
It's great to see the problems of the world being solved on Reddit and not just people coming here to scream into the void together.
Just gonna throw out there that yes homeless population has increased in Missoula, but its not hard to see that this is a national issue. Most cities are seeing an increase.
It has really increased among the workforce who treat their place of employment like a homeless shelter to save money on bills too. /S?
It's not a national problem at all, it's just a problem for states within Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals' jurisdiction.
Why?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tendency_of_the_rate_of_profit_to_fall
Acquiring housing is becoming significantly more onerous. I've got a friend that makes $25ish/hr, working full time, and she barely qualified to move into a room in the most falling-apart-ass house I've seen in a while. This was in a different town in Washington, but it's happening everywhere. As the property market is increasingly dominated by corporate interest, it's starting to behave like a monopoly because they all cooperate to fix prices as high as they think they can get away with. Now if a responsible and high-functioning person working full time, making significantly more than minimum wage, can only barely qualify to live indoors, where does that leave people who don't quite have their shit together? And when they can't find a place to live, do you think that helps or hurts their ability to get their shit together? Do you think they would become more motivated to be a responsible citizen or do you think they would feel bitter and resentful towards a society that doesn't treat them like a person?
The Kim Williams used to be so nice. I would go swimming just upstream from the dog park… until I saw a man drop his drawers and deposit some hot diarrhea directly into the water. Dude why directly in the river? Why not in the woods off the trail? Why in general do so many of the homeless have such an indignant watch the world burn attitude and why do so many educated and affluent leaders in Missoula continue to try and enable their destruction of our community?
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It’s usually driven by mental illness, usually very treatable. But that would require a functioning social safety net, a non profit health care system, and a judicial system aimed at restoration and rehabilitation instead of punishment
Or we could just open back up the asylums. Crazy people don't voluntarily go where they can be helped.
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Then what’s up with the but the end of your post?
It’s chilled out on the Kim Williams lately.
There are literally no public restrooms for over half the year, ps. Don't tell me you've never changed in a locker room?
Great questions. Last summer I saw people crapping in the streets and one really memorable experience was a homeless woman giving fellatio to a homeless man. It happened right in front of Jimmy Johns on a saturday morning. By the time the cops got there they were finished...
To be fair, it only takes me a minute it finish when I'm getting a bj in front of Jimmy Johns to.
Hopefully we can get some support to mitigating the housing crisis in Missoula.
There are many communities who are able to house individuals that have been living on the street due to severe substance use or mental health issues in permanent supportive housing (PSH). This is what Blue Heron is on Mullan Rd. In best case scenario the housing is extremely low barrier like able to not sign the lease right away, looser rules around substance use and over all lease compliance. The entire goal is to prolong the process of potential lease termination while providing 24/7 supportive services on site. This type of housing has been incredibly successful with low eviction and lease termination rates. People need shelter to address any need higher than survival. People need time to adjust to living in an apartment after being on the street for potentially decades. They have to learn how to live inside and abide by social norms. Some PSH units even have balconies or fenced in courtyards so people can sleep in those areas while they adjust to living indoors. Housing people reduces recidivism and inappropriate Emergency Department utilization, which in turn reduces burn out for all types of front line workers. PSH is a great option for people who are described as “frequent utilizers of emergency services” like shelters, jail, ED etc. there is an almost immediate decrease in all services once they enter housing. If you want to learn more I suggest visiting the Corporation of Supportive Housing website. They have done amazing work across the US including supporting Missoula in its goal to be successful in their FUSE (frequent users of system engagement) and PSH programs.
The part I can never sort out in my head is I can’t do whatever I want and neither can other upstanding citizens, why can these people do whatever they want? I am all for services helping people on the edge, or trying to get back on their feet, or with psychiatric or drug issues get help. My tax dollars can go to all of that happily, but the people who cause problems, mess with my life and safety, or harm the public in any way, need to be stopped. I have yet to hear a satisfactory justification for why the homeless are not bound by the same social contract the rest of us are
I once owned a business downtown and sometimes, after hours, we would go grab a drink from a bar across the alley and bring it back to have while cleaning. A cop friend warned me that we better be careful because we could get an open container ticket. I’m like, what are you talking about?! We aren’t drinking it on the street like the homeless did EVERY day in front of our business. Do they get tickets? He said there’s no point in ticketing them because they won’t pay. They only ticket people who look like they can pay, otherwise it’s a waste of taxpayer money. 🤦♀️
I understand that though. Are they going to throw every one of them in jail? That's even more expensive and a bit ridiculous. If you have absolutely nothing to lose why care about some dumb open container law.
Well you have you have to pay for all those services for the homeless SOMEHOW!
It's not so much that they won't pay, but that a judge isn't allowed to fine you more than you can reasonably afford. If you are homeless you likely have no income and therefore can not pay anything so the charge is dropped in court.
There was a set amount for an open container ticket. It was something like $150. But yes, that’s why it would have been a waste of taxpayer money to cite them. I thought that was clear in my OP.
Because they have nothing to lose. You could do it too, but you'd lose everything too.
They don't give a shit about a social contract, that's where your argument fails. The houseless people you're talking about (I actually currently live in my van with my dog btw, we are healthy and clean) are too mentally ill, have been too abused or exploited, turned to drugs and alcohol to keep warm and to cope, or have straight up given up on society coming to rescue them.
So is there anything we can do? Because what your describing is a situation where they are incarcerated or left to their own devices
What is your solution? Locking people up costs way more than anyone wants to spend and there isn't space anyways. The incredible rise in homeless is directly related to the insane costs of housing and the serious undersupply of housing in this country.
Two tiered solution: 1 for people who are poor and one for those who are addicts/ mentally ill. I don’t think those two groups deserve to be combined as I don’t think it serves either group. For the addicts I propose something like a 4 step rehab. 1. Detox period, get them past the physical addiction, this would look a lot like rehabs today. 2. Inpatient group therapy, let’s get people talking to each other and dealing with their demons together. I don’t think people outside those demo’s really know what it’s like. 3. Some sort of CCC style program like the New Deal. Those that can work are put into building infrastructure, trades, whatever the case is but in isolation from the general public. They get paid but it’s held onto until they are ready for reintegration. 4. Half way house style. Working, living a bit in the public but still with guidance/ safety nets. When they are ready full freedom and welcome back to the annoying world of HOA’s and alarm clocks. I Realize some may never make it or be too far gone but I’d like us to try. The mentally ill who can’t function in our society should be institutionalized, not like before let’s keep it humane, but I think overall it’s more humane than making these people live on streets. For the poor and downtrodden we need more housing and more access to housing. I’d rather see so many apartment structures built rent is a non factor for americans but perhaps that’s too much to ask for.
Excellent point. Everyone needs to follow the laws to have livable society. I have no idea why homeless people are excluded.
On one hand, part of me feels providing services to the homeless tends to only draw more homeless. On the other hand, the Minneapolis Federal Reserve Chairman was here last week and during the townhall, an audience member asked Mr. Kashkari about housing. I can't remember his answer but the audience member was managing some dozen housing projects in the county and all are stalled at the bureaucratic level. It's difficult to expect the homeless and low income to be respectful to a city and county with such extreme housing supply inelasticity when they know full-well many Missoulians are struggling to afford housing.
Would the homeless be able to pay for the housing? Would they take care of the housing? Do you think that a population of dual diagnosed people, in active addiction want to change their lifestyle? Most of the homeless people are not from Montana. It's just that Missoula is a soft place to land.
I came in from out of state on Amtrak while recovering from an addiction and lived out of my backpack for a while. Managed to land a job, buy a truck, rent an apartment and take some classes at UM. 10+ years later I have a family, own my home and happily pay my property taxes. All because the community took a chance and gave me a hand up. Didn’t spend more than a few weeks on the street. Without a cheap apartment available at the time I probably would have not managed to keep that job. We have pulled the ladder up with us.
Having gone through a rehab myself, there's a huge mentality difference between somebody down on his luck and needing a little respite and hand back up to get situated again-- addiction complicates it, but you stay around and can pick out who's looking to get back in the saddle themselves and who just wants to go in the wagon. There's enough services available for people in a position of needing a hand up. They might be transient homeless, a few weeks or a month to figure out their situation, resources, and wait for an opening, but they realize that they're at a point to swallow their pride and get the help. The bigger problem is the parenting failures who believe that everything should be handed to them. They'll go to rehab or a shelter when the weather gets cold out of self preservation, but then they'll get mad that they're in a structured environment and go right back out on their own come warmer weather. They need a Twin Oaks commune to go to and figure out how to make something for themselves if structure is too difficult. Once they can advance to a cooperative tribal society, then we can work on society reintegration.
Not all unhoused people are criminal or “users.” When will society realize that what’s needed is a way to get off the streets into a stable environment for those who desire it? Say I want a job that I’m more than qualified for. I happen to have been a renter and lost my home to a wildfire, along with 25,000 people. Even though I had renters insurance, I lost everything. The nearest city has a population of about 100k….university town. I’m unable to find housing due to the high demand so I now live in my only possession…..my car. Who will hire me? I don’t have a place to cook or clean. As a matter of fact, I smell like onions. Even though this is a scenario of what could happen(and probably has) I just get so bothered by those who assume all unhoused people are on the streets because they’re losers. Those people are humans. They are us. Be compassionate and kind.
I made a comment earlier up the thread but this is a good example of what I'm talking about. The situation you're describing is not what everyone in town is pissed off about. I think most people empathize with that kind of situation and are willing to help. The problem is the other kind of homeless. That have zero desire to do anything but drugs every single day. That leave their trash everywhere. That commit crimes and harass people on the street. When you hear this vitriol about the homeless 99% of the time it's those people they're talking about. We need to figure out how to get the first type help without the second type ruining it for everyone. Because right now they very much are.
Addiction is a disease. Not an active choice people are making. You are literally "othering" people right now. "Oh no, they aren't the good ones, they are "the others!" Same shit racists use to make them feel like they aren't racist. "Oh I try to help the homeless. Of course! Just not THOSE types of homeless."
Blah blah blah heard it all before. Nobody forced you to start doing drugs and nobody is forcing you to continue. Don't enable shitty life choices.
You should educate yourself on what addiction actually is. Otherwise it feels like I'm talking to a toddler who has no grasp on the real world. "Nobody forced you to join the military. And now you want support for PTSD? Nobody is forcing you to continue having PTSD!" Lol.
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Mental health issues, trauma, and genetics are all huge drivers for addiction. Very very very few people just go “huh it’d be fun to start using hard drugs.” Your “shitty life choices” are likely someone else’s only easily available way to self medicate or cope, ESPECIALLY once they have become homeless. Do you understand the incredible lack of support and help for addicts without financial resources? Your attitude about this makes me so very sad. Empathy and compassion cost nothing.
Until society figures this shit out these people need to be locked up. Maybe after some time we can figure a way for in patient addiction while incarcerated, like Rhode Island has successfully established. Until then, no more shitting on the sidewalk and leaving needles in the park. Straight to jail.
Let the record show that OP’s position is that homeless Missoulians — who suffer psychotic episodes and must beg for money — are too powerful.
And also that they're insolent, which implies that these vastly powerful people owe OP some particular degree of respect.
I thought OPs position was “why can’t Missoula adopt the same policies that have solved homelessness that every other city in the country has adopted cause no where else has a homeless problem”?
If I were Missoula I would simply end homelessness.
I'm so powerful during psychotic episodes money begs for ME
The meth/heroin/alcohol withdrawal could be what’s causing them to suffer psychotic episodes which isn’t ideal for anyone trying to have a normal day.
Definitely not because the only shelter in town is a nightmare palace and it's literally life threatening to live outside but ok Not everyone with mental illness has a substance problem but I dare you to spend a month at either shelter sober without getting psychotic
So then rehab should be free so they can get the help they need. These are other humans you are talking about. would you like it if someone dehumanized you for the choices you made in your life? Stop seeing humans as less and start seeing them as people. If you're mother went homeless would be acting that way( assuming you and your mother get on of course).
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Lol, these resources are being gutted every day by folks who "don't want to pay for handouts". These same people think that somehow cutting off services to homeless people will just make them evaporate into the sky and be gone forever. Nope. You will just have people who are even more desperate than before. If the rest of the state had any sort of support systems we wouldn't be overrun. If the poverty wasn't so small and underfunded, we wouldn't be overrun. If we had city sponsored camps that could be secured, have drug testing stations to prevent overdoses, have robust vocational rehab programs, and a reformed prison system for low level offenders, we would be in a much better position. NOT to mention if there wasn't a literal housing crisis, wage stagnation, and we had any sort of upward mobility for the lower classes... But those are long term goals. You should REALLY be mad at corporations for causing our current economic situation, and not homeless mentally ill people just trying to survive in a place where people working two jobs are still struggling in.
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Go volunteer at the pov and then tell me that we have all of the support services that we need, and it's realistic for people to get help when they are an abused single mother, or a heroin addict, or have PTSD, or have a serious injury, or have mental illness. You have zero clue what you re talking about. Come down when I volunteer and say hi. I'll show you around.
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Oh so you were one of the "good ones" right?
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A single mother should not fuck with the POV. Services at YWCA are incredible and the staff are angels.
We take teenagers of both genders there to volunteer. Lol. It's not that scary. Y'all treat homeless people like zombies. You don't have to cower from homeless people. It's not what you think it is. But yes, YWCA is amazing.
communal narcissism
Let the record show that these homeless are not Missoulians but transients from other cities and places sucking off the teat of tax payers.
Ahhhhhh my mistake. I thought they were people. Now that I know they’re not missoulians…
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I lived on the streets of NYC until I was able to understand how screwed up my life was.
damn coastal elites
😂😂😂😂😂😂
Let the record show that you know nothing about people experiencing homelessness, drug abuse issues, or mental health issues.
Let the record show that I was a drug abusing, PTSD homeless person living on the street for three years. I got sick of destroying my life and found help. Also, let the record show that only 11% of homeless people make that change permanent.
So you’re saying: 1- there’s no poverty in Missoula, 2- Missoula has adequate drug treatment services, 3- Missoula has adequate mental health services, 4- in Missoula, it’s east for someone working full time making minimum wage to find housing. Because all these are true, these people are homeless/drug users because they aren’t trying hard enough?
I think what s/he's saying is there is a group of people in Missoula who are homeless and create problems for the rest of us, because they are often so out of it they shit in the river, pass out inside our houses (yes, that happened to a friend of mine), block the walking path, steal, etc. We're not talking about people who are poor and struggling and may find themselves homeless. It's possible to distinguish between these two groups. to be in favor of more treatment/mental health services, and to be fed up with people who trash the river.
I'd like to hear more about your story. What motivated you to change?
ngl calling homeless people insolent and entitled is insane. They’re not “entitled to take over the city” this is where the city put them.
I think we need to build a tiny home community for homeless housing. The tents are not a long term solution. I'd be willing to bet that it's cheaper to house the homeless than to let them stay on the streets. I've been homeless myself due to a domestic violence situation, so I have great sympathy for them. Just a thought.
Remember when we all understood not feeding the bears?
Love the hasty generalizations and assumptions made about homeless people by OP… not every homeless person is insolent, inactive, and entitled to take over the city.. many have fallen victim to unfortunate circumstances and are unable to get by with the cost of living constantly increasing and a lack of affordable housing in the area. This lack of housing creates a tough competition for whatever reasonably-priced units that are actually available and it can be difficult even for employed people to secure a rental without a perfect credit score or an affluent co-signer and a triple-deposit. There are many barriers to housing that have nothing to do with income including poor credit, imperfect rental history, previous criminal record, mental health and/or addiction issues, lack of support in finding/utilizing resources, strict inflexible criteria for applicants imposed by both property management companies and private landlords alike, sky-rocketing rent and utility prices (and everything else as well), gaps in rental history, stigma by landlords if applicants have been unhoused for any length of time, difficulty finding a place that allows pets or has enough bedrooms for children, being married to someone with any of the above issues or trouble finding a suitable roommate that does not have any of the above issues, having high-interest debts or costly medical issues, etc etc. I have a respectable full time job in healthcare with a decent hourly wage with bonuses and shift differentials and benefits included and I have been homeless for almost 3 years now. I lost my job during the pandemic after the quarantine/mandatory shutdowns causing my formerly successful business to suddenly tank and leaving me without a source of income. Unemployment wasn’t enough to sustain myself and I ended up taking out a few high-interest credit cards just to survive. I was forced to quickly find new job amidst the chaos, while living in Bozeman finishing my last semester at msu to get my BS. My father had just recently moved to Montana, where I’d lived since 2009, to be closer to me when he had a serious heart attack. He was flown to Missoula and I drove there right away to be with him and visit him at the hospital whenever I could, which took a toll on my mental health and my academic-life. Sadly, my dad never fully-recovered and a few months later, he suffered another heart attack and passed away at the hospital in Missoula. The next day I was Tboned by a hit and run drunk driver with no headlights on driving a black car at night during a torrential downpour on a poorly lit street. My car was near totaled and my insurance didn’t cover it so I was essentially broke and stuck in Missoula. I was with my beloved boyfriend, whom I was totally in love with despite his lack of finances bc he was my true soulmate. Problem is, unbeknownst to me, he was also a closet drug addict with narcissistic tendencies and was leading a double life. He left me after informing me of his infidelities and affairs with several different women throughout the course of our 2 year relationship and immediately moving into his affair partner’s apartment in Missoula while I stayed in hotels. I fell behind and had to withdrawal from my last month of school but was too depressed to figure out how to do it in time so I just got Fs on all my group and solo projects, reports, and finals after maintaining a perfect 4.0 average prior. My car was finally fixed enough to drive back to Bozeman just in time to move out of my apartment since my lease was up and I could no longer afford it since my landlord had forced my roommate to move out after she was suicidal and called emergency services to the apartment one night, stating it violated the neighbors right to a peaceful environment. I was now responsible to pay the full amount of the rent instead of half and I couldn’t afford it.
The landlord flat out refused to accept aide from Montanal Emergency rental Assistance even though I qualified because he didn’t want to wait the 30 days or so that it would take for my app to be approved. I opted to take what I could fit in my car and move to Missoula where it was much less expensive to rent compared to Bozeman. I applied at the hospital for a position in my field and have worked there for close to 2 years now. However, my landlord in Bozeman charged me a ton of money with no explanation of why or how and immediately sent it to collections. I worked as a tech FT for 40+ hrs a week but I still couldn’t find a place bc there was absolutely nothing at the time. I didn’t have many friends in Missoula and no family so I used my paychecks to live in cheap hotels and airbnbs for a long time, spending almost every cent I made on living expenses and still unable to make payments on any of my credit cards or debts or save for a security deposit and first months rent. My once immaculate credit score had plummeted so far that no properties in Missoula would accept me, especially not after seeing the landlord debt on my report. I was getting burnt out from working overtime just to survive living in overpriced hotels. My mental health deteriorated exponentially as no property would give me a chance or approve me. I had put my name on Missoula housing authority waitlist years ago and my name finally came up. I was living in my car at this point. I was denied for making too much money despite the cut in my hours for mental health reasons that would amount to far less than it had the previous year and well within the hud limitations. But they refused to reflect my current circumstances in their calculations and after years of waiting the opportunity had been shot down in an instant. I couldn’t get a case manager or qualify for any assistance bc I made too much money aka actually had a job and wasn’t completely incapable and inept or have kids or addiction issues or terminal illnesses and wasn’t a veteran or a minority or have zero income. So I ended up basically living in my vehicle bc I wasn’t poor enough even though I was in fact very poor and couldn’t afford food on some days and only got to shower o once a week if that and getting to work is a huge challenge but I still do bc I have to or there is no survival and I probably would end up just like the people you see hanging around the pov and Johnson street shelter, etc. Being homeless doesn’t look like that when it begins, these people have unfortunate or tragic circumstance that gradually bring them to that level and those people need help and services for sure. I just wish there was also help and services available to those of us who are riding the line of making too much money for affordable housing or many assistance programs but have other barriers to housing that keep us unhoused from one bad rental reference or excessive debt or lack of verifiable rental history bc only hotels would accept me, or a partner with a criminal history and addiction issues (even though he’s sober and turned over a new leaf), or an unfair landlord debt I have no chance of paying on my own until I can find a cheaper place to live that’s not my car in the dead of winter, or don’t qualify for programs since I don’t have children or HIV or full disability or I’m not a veteran or I just don’t have money to throw away on application fees only to be rejected anyway no matter what. This hopelessness is what brings people to that level of non functionality and poverty and trauma and mental illness and they may have started out with a 4.0 and perfect credit and perfect rental history and a generous income at one point but it can happen to anyone… so just remember that they are suffering the most of any of us, fighting for survival daily and it’s no one’s place to judge them for that when what they really need is help.
There are people in Missoula who will view the criminal, littering, loitering, drug using, insolent, entitled homeless as victims who just need a hug and some free stuff no matter how many problems they cause. I doubt any of those holier-than-thou bleeding hearts live in areas where they have to regularly share space with people who treat themselves and their surroundings like garbage. I think the beginning of a solution involves tough love, stricter code enforcement, and higher expectations of the people receiving services. But as long as those who loudly tout their status as “empaths” assuage their internalized guilt by “loving their unhoused neighbors,” nothing here will change. I am a lifelong democrat, but this is one issue that could sway me to cross the aisle.
I completely agree with OP. I'm a lifelong democrat, but the next candidate to take a hardline stance on this issue is getting my vote, I'm tired of it and it's a danger to our community.
How many more decades of bright blue voting in this town do you need as evidence?
Strict code enforcements, lol really. You wanna put non violent homeless people in the jails!!??!? That would literally quadruple the cost on the normal taxpayer.
Yes. They need to get off the streets and sober up. Exactly yes. Jail.
You realize that incarcerating people for non-violent things mostly just turns them into violent criminals once they get out rather than reforming anybody, right?
Shhhhhhhh……this is Missoula, dang nabbit! I’ll shit my britches before I hear some fast talking city slicker knocking down the “just throw them in jail” argument with logic and common sense.
I don’t believe your label of non-violent is necessarily accurate. I think you’d find the same folks who are leaving needles and shitting on the the sidewalk are also pulling knives on each other and trading stolen guns for more dope. Wake up.
Unless you think literally 100% of them are doing that then yes the situation I mention is relevant.
lol. That’s an interesting and completely inaccurate interpretation of what code enforcement means. I said nothing about putting people in jail for blocking streets and sidewalks with trash and personal belongings.
The leadership in Missoula for a decade has done so much more for the transient drug addicts than the average person in Missoula. They just don't care. They want to virtue signal and score woke points and are completely incompetent or indifferent to the issues of the normal citizen. How did we respond? Electing a very pro homeless mayor. It's so frustrating. They treat us like a piggy bank and our only reward is getting our rivers trashed and our public spaces taken over. I keep wondering when enough is going to be enough but I don't think it's ever going to change.
Our mayor has a great skill set for addressing homelessness, which is quite different than being pro-homeless. There's only so much she can do with limited resources, though. I'm waiting to see what she comes up with.
We'll see. I have a feeling her policy is going to be to throw more money at shelters which is just going to attract more outsiders to Missoula to leech off the handouts.
We ABSOLUTELY need more money for shelters. The pov is completely overrun and underfunded. Go complain to the rest of the state who ships their homeless here because they have literally zero resources anywhere else besides Bozeman, Billings, and Missoula. I'm guessing your solution is something like cut off their resources and kick them out of town. Right? That will SURELY solve the problem. Calm down, don't be so paranoid, and invest in programs that are shown to be effective *when they have proper funding.* (That last part is key, because y'all like to slash budgets for programs and then claim that the programs are ineffective after you handicap them.)
How very considerate of you to demand someone else's money.
Go yell at the sky about taxes. Lol. And yeah while we are at it, fuck the police for taking our tax dollars and only giving speeding tickets or eating donuts. You're right! They are pretty ineffective. There is still tons of crime and drugs on our streets. So I say we save our tax dollars and get the socialist police organization out of Missoula! Other towns in Montana have less cops, but less crime, so the statistics make sense! Why reform programs and make them better to solve problems when we can just do away with them completely, and every citizen can spend an extra 2 dollars that would have gone to social services on potato chips instead! Fucking insane logic y'all follow. You have been brainwashed to think that all taxes are evil.
Username checks out.
Are other cities in MT shipping them here?
They released a report recently that suggets not really. Most homeless in Missoula are from Missoula or nearby rural communities. There may be some from further away, but generally most are actually local. That being said, the report has a lot of variability, it's hard to enumerate folks that generally don't want to be enumerated. But from who they were able to talk to, it seems like unhoused fols are from here or close to here and not being shipped around the nation. Study link here: [https://www.missoulapartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Economic-Impact-of-Homelessness-1.pdf](https://www.missoulapartnership.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Economic-Impact-of-Homelessness-1.pdf)
Bullshit study. Take a walk and ask where they’re from.
What a rough life we have here in Missoula. God forbid we have to deal with the homeless! It’s unfair. Also what will the rich tourists think!!??? They would never buy a second home here if they knew we had 125 homeless people here
You all cry about it but also enable it all with radical permissiveness because of an idiotically misguided sense of compassion. It's called pathological altruism and Missoula, Portland and all the big cities suffer a terminal case of it. You are all part of the problem.
Missoula is smack in the middle of a continent and seems like y'all want folks to just die passing through instead of fixing up wagons but ok
Its called empathy, patience, and not hating people because they are poor and mentally ill. Go move to a smaller city if Missoula is too much. If you don't like it, git out! Lol. It should tell you something about your personality when we would rather live around homeless people shitting in the streets than you. Pathological altruism sounds like an amazing problem to have compared to pathological hatred.
If you care about those who are in poverty and suffer from mental illness, you should care about the insane amount of resources that get wasted by these policies that favor people who abuse the system continuously, to the detriment of those who really need them, destroy public spaces, which in turn adds more stress to the public burden and raise crime rates. Your understanding of reality is childlike.
It has been shown time and time again that the "waste" of these programs is marginal, and the benefits of well funded, well run programs are astronomical. It's literally like .0001% of the waste of other government programs such as the military, farmers welfare subsidies, and building border walls. It's not an insane amount of resources. There aren't even enough resources to begin with for these programs because they are continually hamstrung by policies based on opinions like yours.
This is a embarrassingly uniformed take. Military budgets come from federal allocations, while these programs take money from cities and counties, so they aren't competing budgetary items. In a city like Missoula, which constantly has money issues and that relies more and more on additional levies to support basic things like schooling and the fire department, these programs, on top of being wasteful and ineffective are an affront to anyone who pays taxes. And most evaluations about the wastefulness of those programs are always loaded and dishonest, conducted by the agencies themselves or by their selective publishing of data. But even that is beside the point. The fact is that I don't want a single cent of the money I paid to the city to go to some junkie who litters the river with needles, defecates in parks and exposes himself to women who are out for a walk. If that makes me a Republican to you, I've been called worse and I don't care what you think.
Total bullshit alert
Lol what a load of horseshit 🤣
That’s dumb, they are fellow Americans with no where else to go. You just want out of sight out of mind so you can sleep better. You are the problem, vote for republican profits over people policies and complain when you have to see the inevitable consequences
You're a perfect encapsulation of the problem. You think that "empathy" is equivalent to throwing endless money and resources at junkies who have no desire to improve themselves and have no sense of community or respect for others. You treat them as helpless children and they will always have their way. You are willing to maintain this attitude even when it's clear that this extreme permissiveness has started eroding the fabric of the community and deteriorated public life to a pretty serious degree. You have no empathy for the ones who suffer the consequences of this shit, you just like to be politically theatrical and visible. You're a buffoon, like everyone else who supports this shit.
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Maybe if they scare away visitors places will become more affordable for people that have grew up here and are from here. Stay in side if ur scared. Sissy
Take note from Japan
We went across town on bikes via the Bitterroot branch trail near the johnson street shelter a few weeks ago, and the little tent city was so close to/on the path, that we literally had to ride our bikes over their pile of clothes and blankets that were strewn out of the front of the tent and across the whole width of the path. You pretty much have to be intentional to be that inconsiderate. And then one of the tent guys had the nerve to yell at me to slow down. Excuse me, it's a bike path, moron.
That probably the worst thing anyone’s ever said to you. Sending prayers
Damn the OP deleted himself cause of you hobo lovers
I don't even go downtown for this reason. Not worth it given the homeless folks. This is what blindly voting blue gets you. Purple towns are the best.
I was just downtown yesterday. Had a great lunch with my dad and brother at Double Front then walked to Big Sky Buds (best edibles in town). I know there’s a lot of issues like any city, but people act like downtown is Fallujah in ‘08 bad lol.
I'm not saying I feel unsafe or anything. I just don't think anything downtown is worth the annoyance of finding parking (then paying for it) or stepping over homeless people. Lol
Voting red is what gets you this. Stripping away infrastructure, budget cuts, no real solutions besides “stop being homeless” or “get a job”, these are all trademarks of red politicians. Seen it time and time again all over this country
Where did you see it? Which red city/state is having the most trouble with homeless?
That's why I said purple. Enabling it is a problem (the left). Doing nothing is a problem (the right).
So you just stop living you're life over perceived threats?
There's nothing down town that interests me enough to deal with the inconvenience of going downtown. We live in one of the most beautiful areas in the country. Why would I want to go waste time on concrete to eat overpriced food that isn't good and shop at stores that are overpriced all while dodging homeless drug addicts?
Imagine saying someone else is entitled when they don't have a home coming from the Person that is acting like she is entitled. Huh
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While no one is better than anyone else there are difference's between meth addicted, mentally ill, criminals and people that work for a living and follow laws. There was a study done in New York using 600 homeless people. The study showed that only one person was homeless due to circumstances beyond their control. The others were addicts, alcoholics, felons on the lam, vets that had PTSD & other afflictions. These vets had places to go but chose to live on the streets. Here in Missoula the homeless don't need ID's for services. So, are the people on the street rapists, child molesters or just the run of the mill thieves?
Why can't we start a Thunderdome of bums? Give them weapons... everything from a stapler to flame thrower. Then pair them against other bums or the wildlife... the announcer is the guy who runs missoula mugs. 😂 Shout out to the frequent flyer Constance ✌
But but but their just locals down on their luck. FYI…. Locals don’t shit on sidewalks or screw each other in the bushes….
I must have missed that memo….😅
Ya they just shit in your toilet and fuck ur spouse when your at work lol
Living in society is a contract. If they don’t want to participate they should go live in the wilderness.
Good thing I never signed that contract. Get fucked and go live in the woods if you are that scared of people pooping in a river. Lolol. We're coming for you, your family and your stuff, so you better run out of town, pussy.
Huh. You sound charming. Well I’m completely convinced of your plight now! Let me care for you please, giant man baby.
My plight is fine thanks. I have a job, own a house, and am doing perfectly fine. I'm just willing to help others who are struggling. Still coming for you though. Move out of town please.
Yeh you sound super happy
Definitely happier than the people freaking out because the path was blocked by someone who had dreadlocks.
No it's actually the dog owners such as urself that harass the homeless that are the real leaders /s One of Montanas biggest industries next to agriculture is healthcare, the local government subsidizes and turns a blind eye to treatment centers and rehabs and senior living that build here for the low overhead and ignorant workforce. They drag vulnerable people here under the guise of treatment then abandon them for all manner of reasons. As a child I was one of them and have been stuck here dealing with neglect from the underfunded systems who made their buck and spat me out. Don't like it? Leave.
“Tourist season is coming and the homeless will be […] driving away visitors” Thank fucking God.
Local business depend on tourism. I'd rather have tourists visiting than homeless people who use the streets as bathrooms...
Our local businesses? You mean our dispensaries? Haha. Missoula’s middle class is dead. Only rich people can afford houses in this town. It only makes sense that the streets be filled with shit of the poor.
You're obviously ignorant of the homeless statistics. These people are generally from other cities and states. In the winter, they migrate to warmer clients like Phoenix and LA. As it gets warmer they come back to Missoula. For most of these people, it is a chosen lifestyle. When it comes to local businesses, there are restaurants, breweries, clothing stores, etc. These businesses employ local people. We've seen local business's close and people lose their jobs. . .As the homeless invade the town, crap all over the side walk, physically and verbally attack others all while using city services that tax payers fund. Housing everywhere in the USA is expensive but that doesn't give the green light for people to be outside the rules of society.
The rules of society created the homeless . . . And a study was just done showing that Missoula’s homeless population is largely from Montana. My mother is currently homeless and she’s a sweet old lady who got priced out of her house of 25+ years. So don’t talk to me about ignorance you fucking Yuppy.
I'm sorry to hear about your mom. Why haven't you taken her in to live with you? Why aren't you working a few jobs to care for her? How could you let your mom suffer? You're a disgraceful son genx boy.
I live in a tiny 1 bedroom apartment. She house sits for me when I’m out of town for work. And stays with other family members and friends while she’s on the 4 year wait list for section 8. She’s 78 and lives off of $900/month. Is she on the streets doing meth? No. But she is homeless, nonetheless. I make 62k a year. I’m currently saving for a house. It’s going to take some time and she will eventually live with me. But this is all to say, I think your anger about homeless is misplaced when you should be more upset that our society has allowed so many people slip through the cracks.
So your mom isn't homeless. She has places to stay. Family takes care of family.
I think we can be angry about the systemic problems that create homelessness and frustrated by a SUBSET of the homeless that cause problems. It's not an either or thing.
We're not talking about your mother, as I noted in my earlier comment. I'm really sorry she lost her home. My guess is she's not out on the streets high on meth/fentanyl, blocking the river trail or otherwise making a nuisance of herself.
Got a source on that study?
https://www.kpax.com/news/missoula-county/new-report-sheds-light-on-cost-of-homelessness-in-missoula
😂
Wow. You must not work for a living. That was a d-bag response
This is a D-bag thread. Too many people assume shit about homeless people, just like you assume I don’t work. Sit down and enjoy your trickle down economics and don’t be surprised when it starts to trickle into the streets.
Used to be, back in the day, that you could drive through Yellowstone and the bears would hang out by the side of the road and the tourists could feed them. This went on for a while and the bears, taking the easy path, trolled the tourists for snacks rather than going out and doing the normal bear-method of finding a meal. This went on for a while to the point that it became detrimental to the bears and a safety hazard to the tourons. If a bear approached a vehicle and didnt get a snack, or enough snacks, it might become aggressive. At that point, things got ugly and men with guns were needed. So, to give the bears motivation to go back to the previously normal way of getting bears fed, the park people made it against the rules to feed the wildlife. They removed the 'free meal' part of the equation for the bears and now the bears actually had to go out and look for food. Bear-human conflict dropped, less bears were destroyed, and the bears went back to being bears and finding food in bear ways. The parallels are pretty obvious.
I bet you thought how funny your comment was gonna be, but the downvotes tell the story of how unoriginal not funny, not relevant and low effort it really was.
No, the downvotes (all seven of them at the time of my comment... lol) simply indicate how many people reading EdenPastora's comment decided to clickety-click the little down arrow. And if you've been around r/missoula much, you'll know that the vast majority of its leftist audience simply won't be able to comprehend the wisdom in EdenPastora's comment.
Hang on, I need to grab my microscope before I can locate an appropriately sized violin to play
I think the microscope you're looking for is near the tweezers you use to hold up your micro peen...
As opposed to what, the great and girthy member necessary to whimper about the terrible inconvenience that is thrust upon you by the existence of homeless people? What manly feat will you be accomplishing next? Perhaps wailing at how terrified you are of refugees? Screeching at the injustice of having to share a sidewalk with someone in a wheelchair? Or perhaps you'll surprise us with your bravery and start roaring over the resources spent to treat infant cancer patients?
I can tell you're sincere, just sincerely wrong.
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Is it a flock of vagrants and a murder of crows, I can't remember.
You get what you vote for when you vote republican. Profits over people. You will see more of this until the collapse of the housing market