White will be a massive steal. I definitely need to start getting used to these contracts, like OG's deal looks ridiculous and imo is still a slight overpay, but that's likely the market for an above average wing.
Maxey will imminently make more, so that pushes him down to 15th immediately. And Harden will probably make about the same amount annually. This year, he's going ton essentially be tied for 15th-18th, along with Chris Paul, Jrue, and Harden (CP3 and Jrue are within 200K of him).
Is he a top 18 PG? Maybe slightly worse, but that's not outlandishly crazy to think he can be that.
Next year, he'll probably be in a cluster of something like 18th-21st. Which, again, seems about fair.
It's the first deal after his rookie contract. Those are typically given out on the assumption that he will keep improving.
It doesn't always end up that way, but the idea is he *will* be a top 15 PG in the league part-way through this deal.
Not yet but he could be, think they also paid him for his potential, his averages with raptors as a starter was really good and he was only getting better and better as the season went on
This is the same thing that happened with the Knicks and Brunson. He was paid to be a starting PG. That’s the market value for a starting PG today. He’s 14th now but once Cade gets extended, Murray extension kicks in, Brunson and Fox are up for extension next year, Maxey is going to get a max. He’ll be at 20th after next season.
Just did the quickest PG rankings of my life and had him 22nd.
Edit:
1. Shai
2. Steph
3. Brunson
4. Hali
5. Jamal Murray
6. De'Aaron Fox
7. Kyrie
8. Dame
9. Ja
10. Maxey
11. Trae
12. Jrue
13. Harden
14. Garland
15. LaMelo
16. Cade
17. FVV
18. Coby
19. Suggs (forgot him)
20. Brogdon
21. Conley
22. Quickley
Edit again: I'm only putting one Mavericks guard. Either Luka is #1 and you move everyone else down, or Kyrie is where he is.
Oh no for sure, I wasn’t just basing on base stats I just meant to say not to look at Quickley stats for the year but after the trade since his role changed quite a bit and I’m assuming those will be his base stats going forward
I mean, Quickly put up decent stats on a team that was on like 26 win pace.
When a team is that bad, opposing defenses don't have to try much to limit their scoring on many nights.
A couple years ago we saw Lamelo as the lead shot creator for a 43 win team.
Cade had better numbers and is much younger. Its just obvious that Cade has a much higher ceiling.
FVV has led teams to good records... how am I needing to explain that to a Raptors fan?
So then you just admitted ur reasoning and logic that "defenses dont try against bad teams" is bunk then lmao. Also Raptors fans know Pascal was the one leading those teams, and Current Fred isn't as good as 21-22 Fred.
IQ being paid as the 14th best PG which will only drop lower when guys behind him get paid again isn't crazy at all. I would say lamelo is better than him, him and Cade probably interchangeable, and their both a little ahead of Fred.
Thing is the contract is based on the assumption that iq will be better. This list is right now but if you’re making a list of pgs you want to invest in for the next 3-5 years it changes dramatically.
Looking out over the next 2-3 years, I think you can easily make a case for Quickly being \~ 17.
FVV, Conley, and Brogdon are getting old and/or have injury issues.
At least Quickley is decent on defense (I think?) - if I have a PG that is overall middle of the pack, I'd rather he be a guy that can defend his position. So you can make a case for Quickly > Coby White on that basis.
Suggs to me is a SG.
Now we could see Scoot, Anfernee (if he stays healthy), possibly Keyonte George all leapfrog him. Then you have Dejounte Murray who likely will be playing PG assuming ATL can trade him.
He’s not better then fvv. There metrivs aren’t close and look how much better rockets n how much worse raptors got . Raptors fans really under rated fvv he mb the best defender at his height lol . He has a huge impact signal
Not over Suggs, but definitely over Brogdon.
Suggs was just named to 2nd team All-Defense. He also greatly improved his 3PT shooting.
Maybe if his 3PT% was still ass, but being a legit 3nD gives him the edge.
I think Quickley edges out Suggs but I’m not sure it’s disrespectful. Their stats are similar with Suggs being all-defense this season. Hard to quantify team success but there’s also that.
Suggs was the biggest contributor to the Magics top 5 defense...and he shot 39.7% from 3 and made over 2 a game. THE BEST defender and shooter on a 47 win team basically
I think that is over-estimating half a season where Quickley has had a similar role to any of those guys.
Brogdon- Had pretty similar stats to Quickley despite taking a back seat role on the Blazers so they could spend more time developing Scoot. Brogdon is at the tail-end of his prime with a few more productive seasons left and better size than Quickley. Also proven in the playoffs as a starting caliber guard.
Suggs- Not as offensively talented, but the best defender among the guys mentioned, by a pretty wide margin. While his offensive game isn't where Quickley's is yet, he still shot well from 3, which is the most important.
Conley- Quickley is more talented, but if you swapped Quickley and Conley, the Timberwolves don't do as well in the playoffs. Conley has intangibles that cannot be discounted when it comes to leading a team that Quickley at his young age is still trying to figure out (which is okay).
Coby- Coby was thrusted into being the leader of his team, and led that team to a play-in bid. That is not a burden Quickley has dealt with, so until I see more from him, Coby has to be above him. He's shouldered more, produced more, and has better stats almost the entire way around than Quickley. I honeslty don't think there's much of an argument here.
The difference between Coby’s half a season and Quickley’s half a season is that Coby was the undisputed guy on his team, and led them, unexpectedly, to a play-in berth.
Suggs did his thing for the whole year, and was effective in the playoffs. Idk how you can say he’s a flash in the pan.
Idk how you can look at that Suggs year and not think that shooting can just end up being a huge outlier.
And Coby was no more of the guy than quickley was for the raptors.
not saying he's gonna make that kind of jump, but everyone clowned the knicks for giving brunson 25m/year and now look at that deal.
I feel like that transaction was a real wake-up call for the league about value with the crazy cap increases.
edit: even if it is ascending, the cap% hit drops from 21-19% over the course of the deal. That's the price of a quality starter with potential all-star upside.
Brunson's contract was a lower percentage of the cap at the time than Quickley's contract is today, Brunson had a better resume than Quickley at the time of each deal, and Brunson took an extremely uncommon leap once he was positioned to be a lead guard.
Obviously this would be a good deal if this turned out Immanuel Quickley is a star player, but I don't think that's a particularly useful point of comparison when determining if this contract is fair value.
Wouldn’t be shocked if this is the max number, I do want to see tho if it’s a front loaded contract (starts at highest and goes down from year to year)
I'm not sure it'll be pushed down quite that far. This is salary ranking this coming year among point guards...
1. Curry
2. Lillard
3. Doncic
4. Young
5. VanVleet
6. Haliburton
7. Irving
8. Simmons
9. Garland
10. Morant
11. Murray
12. Gilgeous-Alexander
13. Ball
14. Fox
15. Quickley
The guys who figure to leap Quickley would be Brunson, Murray, Cade, *maybe* Coby White? Who else?
Derrick White if he doesn't agree to an extension and waits for his deal to expire, and maybe Suggs.
Maxey is also missing here and is about to make more.
There will also probably be at least one guy we're not projecting now who blows up and is making more the following year. It wouldn't be too shocking if Jaden Ivey, for example manages to have a breakout year and ends up making more.
Edit: Also maybe Harden, he'll be somewhere in that neighborhood.
Maxey is definitely on the list, yeah.
So the list will be losing 2 guys (VanVleet and Simmons) and adding 4-5 guys over the next couple years, so we're talking about Quickley being 16th or 17th on this list in a while.
On the one hand, the players are the league, they deserve to harvest the profits. On the other hand, the league blackmails cities with the threat of leaving to get free stadium upgrades, and $5B of the NBA’s annual revenue comes from China, a country that kills and oppresses dissidents and minorities.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33938932/nba-owners-mum-china-relationship-more-10-billion-invested-there
$35M for IQ.
Food for thought for those that think Garland is on a bad deal. Similar price, DG is 1.5 years younger, and already showed he’s a better player
The issue is Mikal Bridges. Half a season of dramatically better numbers on a shit team doesn't mean you're definitely the guy you looked like for a few months
Post all star break raptors were starting to get a rhythm going but than Scottie got injured, than Poeltl, and it just went to shit, IQ was balling in that time, we gone see tho but I think this raptors team is a play in team rn
It was a 3 game win streak. He got hurt in game 5 post ASG, right?
I'm not anti IQ, but, boy oh boy the body of evidence that he's worth 35 million a year is not overwhelmingly large
Derrick White extension for 4/127 will be cheaaaaaaap
Good deal yeah, people do also have to get used to the big numbers tho, what white will get paid is light work with the new numbers
Is he going to sign it?
Seems likely by most reports. Guys don't usually really risk it like that these days.
He's also a little bit on the older side since he's turning 30 in a few days, certainly helps the negotiations for Celtics FO
White will be a massive steal. I definitely need to start getting used to these contracts, like OG's deal looks ridiculous and imo is still a slight overpay, but that's likely the market for an above average wing.
Is IQ a top15 PG in the NBA tho?
Maxey will imminently make more, so that pushes him down to 15th immediately. And Harden will probably make about the same amount annually. This year, he's going ton essentially be tied for 15th-18th, along with Chris Paul, Jrue, and Harden (CP3 and Jrue are within 200K of him). Is he a top 18 PG? Maybe slightly worse, but that's not outlandishly crazy to think he can be that. Next year, he'll probably be in a cluster of something like 18th-21st. Which, again, seems about fair.
It's the first deal after his rookie contract. Those are typically given out on the assumption that he will keep improving. It doesn't always end up that way, but the idea is he *will* be a top 15 PG in the league part-way through this deal.
Not yet but he could be, think they also paid him for his potential, his averages with raptors as a starter was really good and he was only getting better and better as the season went on
This is the same thing that happened with the Knicks and Brunson. He was paid to be a starting PG. That’s the market value for a starting PG today. He’s 14th now but once Cade gets extended, Murray extension kicks in, Brunson and Fox are up for extension next year, Maxey is going to get a max. He’ll be at 20th after next season.
Just did the quickest PG rankings of my life and had him 22nd. Edit: 1. Shai 2. Steph 3. Brunson 4. Hali 5. Jamal Murray 6. De'Aaron Fox 7. Kyrie 8. Dame 9. Ja 10. Maxey 11. Trae 12. Jrue 13. Harden 14. Garland 15. LaMelo 16. Cade 17. FVV 18. Coby 19. Suggs (forgot him) 20. Brogdon 21. Conley 22. Quickley Edit again: I'm only putting one Mavericks guard. Either Luka is #1 and you move everyone else down, or Kyrie is where he is.
Assuming Quickley raptors stats are his base stats going forward, I disagree with quite a few names on this list and their order
I would never expect anyone else to have the same as me. And these are not based on just base stats.
Oh no for sure, I wasn’t just basing on base stats I just meant to say not to look at Quickley stats for the year but after the trade since his role changed quite a bit and I’m assuming those will be his base stats going forward
I mean, Quickly put up decent stats on a team that was on like 26 win pace. When a team is that bad, opposing defenses don't have to try much to limit their scoring on many nights.
Using that logic would ding FVV Cade Lamelo quite heavily too which I disagree with
A couple years ago we saw Lamelo as the lead shot creator for a 43 win team. Cade had better numbers and is much younger. Its just obvious that Cade has a much higher ceiling. FVV has led teams to good records... how am I needing to explain that to a Raptors fan?
So then you just admitted ur reasoning and logic that "defenses dont try against bad teams" is bunk then lmao. Also Raptors fans know Pascal was the one leading those teams, and Current Fred isn't as good as 21-22 Fred. IQ being paid as the 14th best PG which will only drop lower when guys behind him get paid again isn't crazy at all. I would say lamelo is better than him, him and Cade probably interchangeable, and their both a little ahead of Fred.
Thing is the contract is based on the assumption that iq will be better. This list is right now but if you’re making a list of pgs you want to invest in for the next 3-5 years it changes dramatically.
Looking out over the next 2-3 years, I think you can easily make a case for Quickly being \~ 17. FVV, Conley, and Brogdon are getting old and/or have injury issues. At least Quickley is decent on defense (I think?) - if I have a PG that is overall middle of the pack, I'd rather he be a guy that can defend his position. So you can make a case for Quickly > Coby White on that basis. Suggs to me is a SG. Now we could see Scoot, Anfernee (if he stays healthy), possibly Keyonte George all leapfrog him. Then you have Dejounte Murray who likely will be playing PG assuming ATL can trade him.
I’d put IQ at 17th behind Cade
He’s not better then fvv. There metrivs aren’t close and look how much better rockets n how much worse raptors got . Raptors fans really under rated fvv he mb the best defender at his height lol . He has a huge impact signal
I'd take IQ over Van Vleet defensively any day.
Lol
Agreed, I’d definitely have IQ over players like Suggs or Brogdon.
Not over Suggs, but definitely over Brogdon. Suggs was just named to 2nd team All-Defense. He also greatly improved his 3PT shooting. Maybe if his 3PT% was still ass, but being a legit 3nD gives him the edge.
Having him behind Brogdon, Suggs and Conley is pretty disrespectful. And even then I’d have him over Coby, but that’s a bit closer.
What? Suggs was just named 2nd-team all defense lmao. Being a top 3-5 perimeter defender holds weight.
There isn't much gap between Suggs and IQ defensively.
I think Quickley edges out Suggs but I’m not sure it’s disrespectful. Their stats are similar with Suggs being all-defense this season. Hard to quantify team success but there’s also that.
Suggs was the biggest contributor to the Magics top 5 defense...and he shot 39.7% from 3 and made over 2 a game. THE BEST defender and shooter on a 47 win team basically
I think that is over-estimating half a season where Quickley has had a similar role to any of those guys. Brogdon- Had pretty similar stats to Quickley despite taking a back seat role on the Blazers so they could spend more time developing Scoot. Brogdon is at the tail-end of his prime with a few more productive seasons left and better size than Quickley. Also proven in the playoffs as a starting caliber guard. Suggs- Not as offensively talented, but the best defender among the guys mentioned, by a pretty wide margin. While his offensive game isn't where Quickley's is yet, he still shot well from 3, which is the most important. Conley- Quickley is more talented, but if you swapped Quickley and Conley, the Timberwolves don't do as well in the playoffs. Conley has intangibles that cannot be discounted when it comes to leading a team that Quickley at his young age is still trying to figure out (which is okay). Coby- Coby was thrusted into being the leader of his team, and led that team to a play-in bid. That is not a burden Quickley has dealt with, so until I see more from him, Coby has to be above him. He's shouldered more, produced more, and has better stats almost the entire way around than Quickley. I honeslty don't think there's much of an argument here.
You’re dismissing quickley because of him only doing it for half a season but then talking up Coby and Suggs.
The difference between Coby’s half a season and Quickley’s half a season is that Coby was the undisputed guy on his team, and led them, unexpectedly, to a play-in berth. Suggs did his thing for the whole year, and was effective in the playoffs. Idk how you can say he’s a flash in the pan.
Idk how you can look at that Suggs year and not think that shooting can just end up being a huge outlier. And Coby was no more of the guy than quickley was for the raptors.
Because he’s a 22. He’s not old enough to have outlier years yet
Quickley should be ahead of Coby, Suggs, Brandon and Conley
I think that's a few spots low.
luka’s a point guard lol. put him at 1 where he belongs
Then he's first and move everyone between him and Kyrie down 1
Lamelo being that low is silly
Vehemently disagree. He's very talented but everyone above him has comparable talent **and** has had actual post-season success.
Rozier is in that 15-18 range And i think i would put Quickley just after Rozier
Surprised you remembered Kyrie and not luka
Could be! It's an upside bet for sure but we're locking into this core
Already 25 tho
If you told me he was a top 15 pg after this year I would not be surprised
Maybe not now but in a couple years into this deal? Maybe. Like the post said, this'll look smaller in that time.
Def not
Real question, is IQ a PG? I view him more as a SG
AAV = Average Annual Value For those who didn't know what that acronym was... Like me.
Thank you. Was thinking hard which player had those initials... ugh.
I'm just waiting for the real number (without the incentives). people love to report the max figure lol
Its probably $160mil without incentives, 3 mil for each year he makes all-nba or other stuff
not saying he's gonna make that kind of jump, but everyone clowned the knicks for giving brunson 25m/year and now look at that deal. I feel like that transaction was a real wake-up call for the league about value with the crazy cap increases. edit: even if it is ascending, the cap% hit drops from 21-19% over the course of the deal. That's the price of a quality starter with potential all-star upside.
Brunson's contract was a lower percentage of the cap at the time than Quickley's contract is today, Brunson had a better resume than Quickley at the time of each deal, and Brunson took an extremely uncommon leap once he was positioned to be a lead guard. Obviously this would be a good deal if this turned out Immanuel Quickley is a star player, but I don't think that's a particularly useful point of comparison when determining if this contract is fair value.
Hopefully no player option as well
Wouldn’t be shocked if this is the max number, I do want to see tho if it’s a front loaded contract (starts at highest and goes down from year to year)
It’s 5 years, we’re not paying Scottie till next year, we’re not really looking to pay anybody this year so that’s very possible
I'm not sure it'll be pushed down quite that far. This is salary ranking this coming year among point guards... 1. Curry 2. Lillard 3. Doncic 4. Young 5. VanVleet 6. Haliburton 7. Irving 8. Simmons 9. Garland 10. Morant 11. Murray 12. Gilgeous-Alexander 13. Ball 14. Fox 15. Quickley The guys who figure to leap Quickley would be Brunson, Murray, Cade, *maybe* Coby White? Who else?
Derrick White if he doesn't agree to an extension and waits for his deal to expire, and maybe Suggs. Maxey is also missing here and is about to make more. There will also probably be at least one guy we're not projecting now who blows up and is making more the following year. It wouldn't be too shocking if Jaden Ivey, for example manages to have a breakout year and ends up making more. Edit: Also maybe Harden, he'll be somewhere in that neighborhood.
Maxey is definitely on the list, yeah. So the list will be losing 2 guys (VanVleet and Simmons) and adding 4-5 guys over the next couple years, so we're talking about Quickley being 16th or 17th on this list in a while.
He is a PG?
On the one hand, the players are the league, they deserve to harvest the profits. On the other hand, the league blackmails cities with the threat of leaving to get free stadium upgrades, and $5B of the NBA’s annual revenue comes from China, a country that kills and oppresses dissidents and minorities. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/33938932/nba-owners-mum-china-relationship-more-10-billion-invested-there
$35M for IQ. Food for thought for those that think Garland is on a bad deal. Similar price, DG is 1.5 years younger, and already showed he’s a better player
Derrick White send that man a fruit basket
The issue is Mikal Bridges. Half a season of dramatically better numbers on a shit team doesn't mean you're definitely the guy you looked like for a few months
Post all star break raptors were starting to get a rhythm going but than Scottie got injured, than Poeltl, and it just went to shit, IQ was balling in that time, we gone see tho but I think this raptors team is a play in team rn
It was a 3 game win streak. He got hurt in game 5 post ASG, right? I'm not anti IQ, but, boy oh boy the body of evidence that he's worth 35 million a year is not overwhelmingly large
Yeah it’s a risk but just how it goes in the nba I guess, but I am very high on IQ so it’s a bet worth taking