>Stoogenke asked Byrd if she can afford that.
>“God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” she said.
>And the HOA’s lawyers are asking for Byrd to pay attorney fees: $65,000 for one part of the case and $50,000 for another
Delusional
“God will make a way. He always has."
"the HOA offered to settle the case and waive the fees if Byrd took the camera down."
Reminds me of an old joke:
There was a flood and the village was evacuating to higher ground. A coachman asked the local priest if he wanted to leave with them.
"No thank you, God will save me"
As the water was filling the area, some people in a boat came by and asked the priest if they should get him to dry land.
"No thank you, God will save me"
As the water was filling up the church and he was seeking shelter on the roof, a helicopter flew in and tried to rescue him.
"No thank you, God will save me"
Eventually he drowned, and asked God in the afterlife "Why did you not save me, I was a good follower my whole life!"
"I sent rescue three times..."
So many times I've heard this at a former place of work, it's like ingrained in my mind, but one of the few things they rambled on about that stuck. I'm not religious in anyway shape or form, but I hear about those religious idiots who think God will fix everything, and I instantly think of this. If God was real, he has answers. Scientists making vaccines, loving someone despite their skin or if they like the same gender or identify as one thing or another, warning signs we're destroying the Earth, etc.
This was literally the argument I made to convince a religious relative to get the Covid vaccine.
“If God gave us [humans] dominion over all living creatures, surely that includes the smallest virus and bacteria to the largest whale? If we are made in His image and likeness, doesn’t it logically follow that that includes the knowledge and intelligence to conduct research into the world around us, and create medicines for our own benefit?”
This was literally the homily at my church today. Don’t judge, it’s mostly a social and cultural thing for me.
“Doctors, nurses, scientists and all healthcare workers are agents of God. Listen to them you little shits.” (Paraphrased heavily, of course.)
I mean, the only part I paraphrased is the exact wording. Not the sentiment.
My priest is absolutely gas and great craic, so I know that when he was calling out those who reject God’s agents in science and medicine, in his head he was calling them little shits.
If we ever got a priest less cool, I think I’d have to think real hard about my promise to my late wife to raise our kids Catholic and take them to Mass and my own displeasure with a decent chunk of Catholic dogma.
I have said to my evangelical in-laws, God gave us science, why do you ignore this? He gave us answers to disease and cures for cancer, they will go to the hospital for medical help so they must believe in medical science.
I just can’t believe the propaganda works so well on the right wing such that they’ll vote away all that benefits them if a rich man tells them to. It’s some kind of hypnotism, they didn’t feel like this (well, not this angry and ready for fascism) as was ten years ago…. Now they’re lathered up for an imaginary enemy rich guys convinced them they have.
Its so weird, isnt it? I used to have a US friend as well and he always had some... uh.... 'out-there' ideas, but when Trump burst into the scene, he went full trumpeteer and we just lost him. Like, "I dont want any contact with you guys and also we should start a nuclear first strike against China. And delete my entire comment history from the forum."
People went insane over Trump and I still don’t understand it. I won’t talk politics with my brother anymore. We can hang out, I’m still an uncle, No Politics.
The farce of it is, people DO believe in science they just pick and choose what science they believe in - without any understanding of any of it.
Id bet most climate change deniers use cell phones, because they're convenient. But when it comes to climate change all of a sudden they're deniers and this is a science they choose not to believe.
It is funny/not funny that they sit behind this magnificent invention (internet, computers in general), to pound their keyboards on how science is the farce! lol it’s not funny but all I can manage these days is a weak giggle at how fkd that is.
NDGT talks about this a fair amount. It’s called ‘God of the gaps’.
With every scientific development that advances our knowledge of how the universe works, their god gets a little bit smaller - and it’s a carnal, fear-based reaction to have to replace faith (so intrinsic in identity) with fact.
People don’t like to see their god shrinking - when it can so easily be reframed into him (or her or it) simply revealing the brilliance of their design.
This, to me, is spearheaded by the religious institutions that anchor their power and authority on dogma that is, at best, on shakey ground. It subsequently trickles down to their congregations.
Parents neighbors were the same way. They were getting foreclosed on and my parents offered to buy their house. It was a seasonal second home and my parents would have just rented it out and let them use it for the couple weeks a year they used it anyways. They refused saying "god would help them through their issues". House got taken by the bank, auctioned off, and they made out with nothing. Absolutely delusional. God won't pay your bills.
>Both sides say the HOA offered to settle the case and waive the fees if Byrd took the camera down. Byrd says she didn’t take the deal because, for her, it wasn’t about the money, it was about the camera. The HOA’s lawyers say if she had settled, they would not be asking the judge for her to pay the attorney fees.
She also had an out, and didn't take it
at VERY minimum just take down the camera and settle the case AND THEN bring a better judicial standing regarding the one camera you want.
also, as an electrician, it would seem that she could mount the camera facing down (horizontally) from the overhang of the stoop and make it not noticeable from the street, not recording anyone away from her stoop, and still recording all activity at her stoop.
she dun fukkd up.
This is literally what we had to do with our HOA. They noticed our doorbell cam, so we had to instead put a camera looking down on our front stoop so only people who were well onto our property would be recorded.
I fucking hate HOAs.
trust...
i live in an unincorporated township (see: home rule) in Northern Michigan. we 100% bought our property because of the laws. no HOA, no noise ordinance, no nothing...
but, that means neighbors need to be good to each other...
anyway, our first home was in an HOA and the only thing that happened in 5 years was we had to pay 100$ and all of the roads were resurfaced.
long story long, i know how shite an HOA can be, but, i moved out of a nice one and now live in a swamp.
>so only people who were well onto our property would be recorded.
Pretty much the rule in (most of) the EU. Can't film anything not your property.
Neighbours shouldn't have to be recorded in their own yard or walking down the street just because you want a camera.
What she went through was tragic and left her deeply traumatized. I have sympathy for her wanting a ring bell.
Because I have never owned a ring bell, this question might sound stupid. Could she have positioned the camera so it only showed her doorway?
I have sympathy for her too
To answer your question, it’s Tough to know without knowing the layout of the condos. The ring cameras are usually part of the door knob assembly, so they look straight out from the door- like a peephole.
So chances are it would always be able to capture other residents as they walk down the hallway. Also, it records a lot of Audio as well, so it might capture residents who aren’t even in view of the camera.
She’s a scared woman who was drugged and sexually assaulted. Yall are showing a lack of empathy here.
The HOA could’ve checked with the neighbors who would’ve been in view of the camera and if they were ok with it, let her have her camera.
Their point about allowing her to put up cameras inside her home only helps in providing evidence, not in preventing another crime.
> Their point about allowing her to put up cameras inside her home only helps in providing evidence, not in preventing another crime.
The ring camera does the same. I’m empathetic to her cause but she had a lot of ways out of this and I understand the neighbors want their privacy respected.
With a Ring camera you can check to see who is at your door without them knowing you’re home. Peeking through the curtains might be seen by the person standing on the stoop. It’s also a deterrent the same way a dog is. Criminals will be less likely to target a house with external security.
The mental gymnastics of people expecting God to fix their problems are insane. God didn’t prevent her sexual assault so why would he prevent her from having to pay this money? He either stops bad things from happening to you, or he doesn’t.
Also, maybe this is God finding a way to get the other party $73,000 for something going on in their lives. People always think God will do things for them, but God has to get the money from someone…
I mean she lost the trial and was STILL given the choice by the HOA to just settle and the HOA would waive all the legal fees (115k) and the 73k fine if she just took the camera down. She said no.
Which is wild because omg. A ring camera can be a lifesaver if not evidence in court if she were ever sexually assaulted/assaulted/had an attempted assault again
I knew someone that worked the phones at a credit card call center for a while.
Said a woman called in one night, asking why they received a bill showing she owes a balance of 10k, with a minimum due of $200 or whatever it was.
My buddy explained that she opened her card a month ago and that she had maxed the card out in that first month, which is why it was showing a 10k balance.
Woman on the other end goes silent for a second, before saying that she thought that the credit card was a gift from God, so she didn't understand why she had to pay it all back.
There was an argument that went on outside and in the apartment next to mine for about three hours in the wee hours last week. Two very drunk guys with a lot of issues from the incoherent shouting I could translate. There was one bit that I did understand and it included the longest silence of the episode:
Drunk 1: I'm not giving you money. When I give you money you never pay it back!
Drunk 2: You've only ever loaned me money once!
Drunk 1: And did you pay me back?
Yup, this is the only way to help someone with money. It’s a gift. A gift to a friend or family member is a thing that can make you feel good, and hopefully helps them.
A loan on the other hand will just create tension on all sides. Even if they are grateful up front, the loanee will ultimately resent or shame of the obligation to pay it back and the loaner will be in a limbo of waiting to be paid back or upset that they got stiffed.
I worked credit card phones and I've heard this same convo from multiple agents. Thank God I wasnt in customer service but the underwriting side of things. Still had to deal with delusional assholes but more not understanding how credit scores work. I was once told that it was someone's God given right to have a credit card, when they had an income of 30k, revolving debt of like 100k, and a credit score of 450 from nonpayment.
I see a lot of people complaining that credit scores are a "scam" any time the numbers go down (still in a good range) because they closed a credit account... Considering that the score is an *extremely summarized* evaluation of "is this person safe to lend money to" of course major changes in your credit accounts will change it, at least for a while. Are lenders just supposed to take you entirely at your word? :/
That said I think credit scores are overused for too many things and have too much of an impact on things like affordable housing, when it exists at all... but I also totally get why a landlord would want to weigh "do they pay their debts?" given how expensive and troublesome it can be to evict someone who's simply decided not to pay for whatever reason.
But seriously though. That settlement agreement is a gift from god. Waiving all fees just to remove the camera. That’s like getting sentenced to time served for a felony.
Matthew 19:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
You mean that one bible quote? "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."
I think the idea was moreso god doesn't want you to larp as Scrooge Mcduck, but that probably doesn't mean living in a cardboard box? But I'm not a theurgist or whatever they're called so take that with a grain of salt
Reminds me of a [joke ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/18pzj6s/god_and_his_will/)I once heard:
>A devout person is caught in a flood. As the waters rise, they climb onto the roof of their house and pray to God for help.
>A neighbor in a canoe comes by and offers to take them to safety, but the person refuses, saying, “I’m waiting for God to save me.”
>As the water keeps rising, a rescue team in a boat comes along, urging the person to get in, but again they refuse, saying, “God will rescue me.”
>Finally, as the water reaches the rooftop, a helicopter descends with a ladder, and once more, the person turns down the help, saying, “I have faith that God will save me.”
>Tragically, the person drowns. When they meet God in heaven, they ask, “Why didn’t you save me?” God replies, “I sent you a canoe, a boat, and even a helicopter! What more were you expecting?”
When we moved a decade ago, my one requirement was no HOA. If we ever move again, it will be to a non-HOA location.
This resident knew the rules, was aware of the fines, and still continued to accrue this massive debt. Yes, the rule is absolutely ludicrous, but it's an HOA. That's sort of what they're known for. The HOA in my former neighborhood consisted of failed schoolyard bullies and bored octogenarians.
It's not ludicrous. I should be able to come home without my neighbor taking a picture every time it happens.
Also, if she really disliked the rule, she had the opportunity to convince other members of her HOA to change the rule
Best I can do is a copy paste:
CHARLOTTE — Teywonia Byrd lives inside Fat City Condos in NoDa. She’s a single woman who lives alone.
“I was drugged unbeknownst to me and then sexually assaulted,” she told Action 9′s Jason Stoogenke.
She says she’s been living on edge even since so she put a Ring camera on her door. She found out she needed homeowners association approval, so she submitted a request, but the HOA said no.
“So I had mentally prepared for the threat of that, but no type of preparedness could ever have brought me to this point,” she said.
She kept the camera and the HOA cited her $100 per day. That went on for years.
“It’s difficult to put into words,” she said.
The HOA’s lawyers told Stoogenke this case was “never about an exterior door modification.” They say it was about privacy. The HOA didn’t want Byrd -- or any resident -- being able to record neighbors.
They say “nothing would have prevented Ms. Byrd from putting a dozen cameras up inside her own unit for her own security, which she has never done.”
Byrd sued the HOA, went to trial, had a jury, and lost.
“It feels like I’ve been alive every single moment and every single day with nothing but pain and injustice,” she said.
So she has to pay $73,000.
Stoogenke asked Byrd if she can afford that.
“God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” she said.
And the HOA’s lawyers are asking for Byrd to pay attorney fees: $65,000 for one part of the case and $50,000 for another.
Both sides say the HOA offered to settle the case and waive the fees if Byrd took the camera down. Byrd says she didn’t take the deal because, for her, it wasn’t about the money, it was about the camera.
The HOA’s lawyers say if she had settled, they would not be asking the judge for her to pay the attorney fees.
Seems like nobody here replying to you has actually read the article.
The HOA was issuing fines to them($100 per day) per the bylaws. The homeowner then sued the HOA. She initiated the legal action and lost.
The HOA is seeking their legal fees be paid by her. Heck they offered a settlement where she just takes down the camera and The HOA eats the legal fees, And she kept pushing the lawsuit.
Yeah, a lot of HOA/COA contracts have attorneys fees clauses exactly for cases like this, to discourage sides from bringing a lawsuit and encourage an amicable settlement. It also means whoever wins gets their legal fees paid instead of being out a ton of money even though they won the suit. She would have hers paid if she'd won the suit.
It's breach of contract. She signed and agreed to rules and to the fines for breaking rules. The numbers are made up, but she consented to them.
HOAs work and exist through contracts the homeowners consent to, and they consent when purchasing the house. The entire neighborhood was built under a contract that buyers must be in the HOA, with all the benefits and penalties
It's pretty bullshit, that's why you just don't buy there. The double bullshit is when you literally can't buy property anywhere without one due to short housing supply and the pervasive use of HOAs
It's a condo, the HoA is necessary in that it manages the building all the condos are in. Without it you'd be at the mercy of neighbors kindness to fix roofs, take care of hallways and elevators etc. When all the units are owned there is no "rental company" to fix things outside your unit.
The problem is that inevitably the HoA board has busybodies who are not there because they care about roof maintenance, but because they want to be able to fine their neighbors if they don't like the color of their patio furniture.
Funny part is these people are voted in and much like national politics, horrible people get in because barely anyone cares to vote and nobody good wants to run for a horrible unpaid position where people just complain to you every day. It mostly attracts people with many gripes and no power in their daily lives.
This is so true! It’s like pulling teeth to ask people to even come to HOA meetings much less take any board position. It’s infuriating really because I don’t want to be on an HOA board but no one else wants to and someone has to make sure our property mgmt is doing their job, bills are getting paid, our building is safe, etc. It’s not even much work, but we can’t convince people. A couple of older people would love to give some more recent owners the reins, but no one has any interest. Complete apathy until someone has to bitch about something. We sincerely ask them to please join because they can help with the specific issue and others, and you might have guessed, they never take you up on it!
HOAs are entered into freely and voluntarily, and you know you're getting into one when you purchase the property.
Plus for a condo its 100% necessary to have a governing body of the owners since the building is a shared common asset.
The workaround is you get to know your neighbors and find some like minded ones to run for seats on the HOA and dismantle all the shitty rules from the inside.
> It's breach of contract. She signed and agreed to rules and to the fines for breaking rules.
I'm going to counter with that when it comes to an HOA, rules can easily be changed or added, and you may not agree with them.
> The HOA didn’t want Byrd -- or any resident -- being able to record neighbors.
I mean, this seems like as valid a reason as any. A home is a private place, and respecting that privacy is important to a lot of people. Especially when you consider that a lot of those doorbell cams are directly accessible by law enforcement.
HOA fines have to exist for violations because without teeth, assholes just won't listen. Yeah, HOAs are rightfully the subject of a great many horror stories, because often they have some really petty rules, but this case doesn't seem petty.
HOAs do not have to justify damages. This is no different than the vast majority of local ordinances. The HOA contract stipulated $100 fine assessed each day for the violation. It appears that the HOA capped it at two years exactly. $100 x 2(365 days) = $73,000.
She was stupid for believing that she could convince a juror to ignore the basics of the contract and side with her solely based on her feelings. Nobody chose to do so, and this was an open and shut case.
The HOA offered to waive everything of she just took the camera down. She refuses.
Everything outside your unit is community property, not yours. Thst includes the exterior of your door.
The $73K isn’t the attorney fees. It’s 2 years worth of daily fines for keeping the camera up without permission.
The attorney fees are an additional 65k and 50k
Sure. But lawyers ain’t cheap. And considering they needed to convince a jury to rule against a rape victim in favor of an HOA, I’m guessing they got some top shelf representation.
Not only that, but it’s worth mentioning that the HoA offered to waive **all** of the fees if the lady would remove the camera, but she never did
Usually getting attorneys fees paid in a case as a defendant is pretty rare right? The court would basically have to view it as an extremely frivolous suit with little standing
HOAs have a lot of power to make whatever rules they want. Make sure you read all the CC&R before signing. There is a busy body who will hold you to every single file in there.
Just to add context, this woman has filed restraining orders and harassment suits on most of her neighbors. She runs a TikTok account where she not only captures the way she breaks rules and harasses neighbors, but also posted a photo of a deceased neighbor saying she got her karma.
She was voted out of her apartments HOA due to her harassment and is now trying to retaliate but continuing to sue her neighbors.
To Be fair why would a US based local television station change their website to follow foreign laws. They obviously know what little viewership they get from outside of their area. And to make something GDPR compliant, can be quite cost prohibited.
This lol. You literally can't choose unless you opt out of living in any condo.
Whether they're HOAs, condo boards, whatever name they're called in different countries... there is some organization that's there to ensure the upkeep of the condo's common areas. Like who do you think does elevator repairs? Ensure the hallways are clean? Take out the garbage? Maintaining the gym/pool? It's not the residents that are doing it.
Yep, keeps the roof in good condition too, and most condo buildings would quickly end up condemned by the city without a board/HOA maintaining the common exterior, parking, and landscape.
Exactly, no such thing as a condo without an HOA at this point. Pretty hard to avoid HOAs at all in the US. Like sure avoid it if you can, but that’s tough to do in most areas
Yeah, its so hard to find a condo without HOA where I live, hard as in I've never seen one.
Still, you actually want HOA in condos, you need someone to take care of the exterior.
Maintaining the parking areas, curbs, trash, etc too. It's inevitably a cooperative establishment that requires a cooperative to manage the cooperative elements. It's not necessarily a bad thing except that people aren't very nice to each other, it turns out.
It’s hard to find because in the US they are illegal. Condos must have an HOA equivalent for insurance reasons (the HOA is the necessary named insured for certain exterior portions of the building itself)
Agree that HOAs can be a pain. But having read the article, the HOA is not in the wrong on this one. The woman is just bonkers. Putting a camera outside your door in a hallway that monitors everyone passing to their unit or the elevator? lol, no.
Luckily all mine does is (for $25/mo) is pay for trash/recycling and maintain the the common areas (couple of community playgrounds and mow the walking trails)
Any rule enforcement is basically limited to "weeds in your decorative rocks".
Yup I used to think the same as the guy above. I’ve been lucky my whole life with landlords, neighbors, and the HOE of my complex. Resigned my lease around the time board change happened. Was absolutely bonkers
Like most things, HOA's can be either not a big deal, or the worst thing in your life.
The problem with HOA's is that you probably won't know, until it's too late.
An HOA can start out "not so bad" and become "the worst thing ever" in just a couple years, based on who gets elected, and what they do.
minimal upside and nearly unlimited downside.
Even if she had won, now the HOA has to jack up their fees to pay for their attorney.
At least they are only going for costs at the moment, not trying to take her house.
Pretty sure they were saying a hen is much less objectionable than a rooster, and they're not allowed to even have hens. Not that they're allowed to have roosters.
HOAs are like fashion shows. You only hear about the bizarre, outlandish bits from avant garde designers while 99% of the show is just new styles of regular clothing.
>”I was drugged unbeknownst to me and then sexually assaulted,” she told Action 9′s Jason Stoogenke.
>She says she’s been living on edge even since so she put a Ring camera on her door. She found out she needed homeowners association approval, so she submitted a request, but the HOA said no.
> They say “nothing would have prevented Ms. Byrd from putting a dozen cameras up inside her own unit for her own security, which she has never done.”
Telling a rape survivor that they can’t ever do anything to protect themselves unless it’s already too late to do something, because that’s what knowing someone is attempting to break into your house is for so you can know about the danger before it makes coffee in your kitchen, is a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with this country
Edit: guys, idk what to tell you here. Unless you can see through walls, then an outside camera is way more effective at giving you warning and lead time than anything that only functions after the locks are broken. If you disagree, please grab a member of your house, have them stand outside and open the door. When you hear the door open, see how long it takes you to “call” the police, have them run to you as they open the door, and then add five minutes. Did they reach you? Did you hide long enough? Five minutes later is when the cops would get there, so hopefully you managed to hide cuz they can do some damage in five minutes!
Now do the same thing again, but have them wait two minutes before they open the door. Use about 1 minute and 45 seconds of that time to call the police, find a weapon, and hide somewhere. Now when your friend breaks in, wait three minutes. Did they find you?
That should tell you whether it’s better to have the exterior camera or just the internal system
I wonder if she could have done this so long as the camera only recorded her own property (meaning, aimed down from above).
I feel for rape victims, as any normal person would, but you have to wonder if there’s something else going on here. She was fined daily for a long period and refused to find some compromise? HOAs are crazy, so I’m not taking their side at all, but it just seems like there’s more to the story.
Also, having a camera outside of your house likely won’t prevent rape better than having an alarm, a dog, etc. Hell, a sticker that says you have cameras would be sufficient if you just want to scare people off. The exception would be if she knew her attacker, of course.
It's a condo building, so her door probably opens onto a shared hallway. A motion activated camera that is going to be useful for seeing who is at her door is also going to record her neighbors comings and goings.
Not only that but if you read the article, she is the one that initiated the legal action after years of ignoring the fines.
A settlement was offered where she agrees to take it down and pays nothing. She didn't take it and predictably lost the suit, and now also has to pay the HOAs lawyer fees.
Except they didn't say, " they can’t ever do anything to protect themselves". She can put 100 locks on her door, arm herself to the teeth, get a dog, door alarm, cameras indoors, etc., etc.
The HOA simply said it doesn't want cameras outside since it can record other tenants, which likely due to some sort of invasion of privacy.
They even offered to settle. Sometimes people are stubborn and don't look for alternatives.
Unfortunately, and I HATE saying this, but the HOA is in the right here.
Let's give the benefit of the doubt and take their reasoning at face value: that this ruling is to ensure the privacy of other residents. I wholeheartedly agree with this decision.
As much as I empathize with an SA survivor, their rights don't overrule the rights of others around them. Privacy is one of the most paramount rights a person has and in this day an age is under constant threat.
And I'm sorry, but there's nothing a ring camera is going to achieve that a simple peep-hole or intercom cannot.
A ring camera is not going to prevent an intruder from entering the premises.
I'm not sure what the context of "condo" is here, but if there's no external access to the unit then it's also very likely the building already has security measures in place at external access points.
Ms. Byrd is not in the right here, and she was given a lot more opportunity to resolve this than I would have expected given how monstrous HOAs usually are.
Unfortunately this entire situation is on her and she should pay.
Nah.
She could have sat her ass in a chair beside her door with a journal keeping notes of what times people come in and out of her view, and who they are, etc with the exact same "invasion" of privacy.
She could have stood in her doorway or looked at the peep-hole all day and done the same thing.
The camera just does it as her proxy; it doesn't have access or ability to do anything she herself didn't have access to or the ability to do.
None of the people potentially being recorded from the camera's vantage are having their privacy violated when using a common area that other people have legitimate access to as well.
I don't think the HOA told her "she can't ever do anything to protect herself" at all. They told her no exterior cameras.
She could have spent a fraction of this money on interior cameras, a security system, locks, panic buttons, tasers, all kinds of things, that would protect her more than a ring camera.
It's unfortunate that it got to this point.
If she only wanted the ring doorbell camera, why not use the peephole cam instead?
https://ring.com/products/door-peephole-security-camera
It shows who is coming to the door, what is happening in the yard, and does not violate the external camera HOA restrictions.
Also, never live in an HOA if possible.
I would have thought it would have the same problem with the HOAs rules about not recording other people's properties, but it's not like anyone would ever know unless you told them. This person seems to be unwilling to compromise though.
A comprehensive alarm system with window, door, and motion sensors as well as indoor cameras would have cost a hell of a lot less than the courts
She really must have thought she would win
All that god stuff aside. If the Ring camera is facing her front door and isn’t facing somewhere inappropriate I don’t know why people in the comments are siding with the HOA especially after you’ve read the reason she install them.
“But it’s written in the contract!” There are times where you have to think as a human for one day in your life instead of being a slave.
Why would it be facing her front door? It’s likely the opposite, directly facing neighbors door.
While in principle I agree she should be able to keep it, I do find her dumb for not just taking it down and then going to war over it, or at LEAST taking the settlement.
I hate HOAs but in this case this lady is just negligent.
God I fucking loathe HOA’s. If their bylaws state in no uncertain terms that users cannot have an exterior recording device, then yeah she did break the rules. $100/day is a bullshit fine though. If they state that she cannot unless she has board approval and they denied her anyway, I’d fight it.
But let’s face it, it’s not about privacy. Houses everywhere have some sort of exterior cameras. It’s about HOA board members flexing their authority and saying no.
Source - I was on an HOA board once. I’ll never be able to scrub the ick off my body from that brief moment. Fortunately I never had to engage in any decisions like this. But can confirm that HOA board members are just wanna-be politicians and authoritarians.
In a way I understand the need for HOA. You want people to keep their property clean and in good repair in order to maintain property value. That is understandable to me and I think to a lot of other people who have had to live next to some trashy ass nasty people before.
However, they pick the absolute most stupid shit to fight over. It’s a camera. It’s for safety, insurance, etc.
Yeah yeah she signed a paper and bought into an HOA. That doesn’t mean this rule isn’t wrong and shouldn’t be removed. “It’s about the rules” yeah well the rule is fucking stupid.
Ring cameras/external facing cameras are not common in condos AT ALL. Go to most condos worldwide and you’ll probably find very few that allow them. Most people would view it as strange, because they don’t have the same mentality as people living in homes. Start allowing ring doorbells in condos and next thing you know you have creepy neighbours stalking people and pointing cameras at their doors across the hall.
99% of people don’t need ring/external cameras. But the way they’ve proliferated the US doesn’t surprise me given the mentality.
The rule here really isn’t odd. It’s basic common sense that in a condo/apartment building you don’t point your own personal cameras into shared spaces like a creep.
In most of the US, it is actually the opposite.
In general, it is illegal to record someone when they have an "expectation of privacy", such as in their own home or fenced backyard, etc.
However, they do not have that same "expectation of privacy" when on a public road or sidewalk; thus, it is legal to record them.
In some places, there are some laws about recording conversations. . .for example, in a one party consent state, you can record any and all conversation you're a party of. . .but in a two- or more -party consent state, you'd need the permission of all those involved to record the conversation. . . so you may not be able to record audio in some cases, but video is usually still fine.
Yet, there are also additional restrictions in some cases. . .like even when there is no expectation of privacy, you cannot record and use that recording for malicious purposes.. . .
Yet, also exceptions, such as when recording evidence of criminal activity.
The laws and regulations vary though across the country, so take it with a grain of salt.
It did, and that was the root of the problem. It was recording all of the neighbors she was facing, and in a condo neighborhood that can be a lot of people that didn't want to be recorded.
>Stoogenke asked Byrd if she can afford that. “God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” she said. And the HOA’s lawyers are asking for Byrd to pay attorney fees: $65,000 for one part of the case and $50,000 for another.
Sounds like her god gave her an out, and she slammed the door on it. She wouldn’t owe anything if she took it down. Hell, just find something else that’s less noticeable as a camera.
It's fucked up that the HOA is fighting a doorbell camera, but that person is a moron for leaving it up during the fight. I haven't seen a story in many years that made me say "Wow, the HOA seems kind of like the reasonable one here..."
>Stoogenke asked Byrd if she can afford that. >“God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” she said. >And the HOA’s lawyers are asking for Byrd to pay attorney fees: $65,000 for one part of the case and $50,000 for another Delusional
“God will make a way. He always has." "the HOA offered to settle the case and waive the fees if Byrd took the camera down." Reminds me of an old joke: There was a flood and the village was evacuating to higher ground. A coachman asked the local priest if he wanted to leave with them. "No thank you, God will save me" As the water was filling the area, some people in a boat came by and asked the priest if they should get him to dry land. "No thank you, God will save me" As the water was filling up the church and he was seeking shelter on the roof, a helicopter flew in and tried to rescue him. "No thank you, God will save me" Eventually he drowned, and asked God in the afterlife "Why did you not save me, I was a good follower my whole life!" "I sent rescue three times..."
So many times I've heard this at a former place of work, it's like ingrained in my mind, but one of the few things they rambled on about that stuck. I'm not religious in anyway shape or form, but I hear about those religious idiots who think God will fix everything, and I instantly think of this. If God was real, he has answers. Scientists making vaccines, loving someone despite their skin or if they like the same gender or identify as one thing or another, warning signs we're destroying the Earth, etc.
This was literally the argument I made to convince a religious relative to get the Covid vaccine. “If God gave us [humans] dominion over all living creatures, surely that includes the smallest virus and bacteria to the largest whale? If we are made in His image and likeness, doesn’t it logically follow that that includes the knowledge and intelligence to conduct research into the world around us, and create medicines for our own benefit?”
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Thanks. It worked.
Too true, then there's Religious Uncle Terry: "hurr durr, God gonna fix my bumpy pecker"
God won't fix bumpy peckers. He pretty much told me himself. Source: my prayers for God to fix my bumpy pecker go unheeded.
Have you tried tithing more?
This guy churches 👆
Oh sorry, my prays was for God to not fix your bumpy pecker.
I'll just have to recruit more people to think about my bumpy pecker and God at the same time. Maybe some sort of bumpy pecker cult.
I'm gonna start praying that all the bumpy peckers go unhealed. Less competition.
This is the most evil thing ever! I'm telling God on you. Respect my bumpy pecker! I demand it!
If you're made in his image, that means God has a bumpy pecker. Working as intended.
Why would god fix something he gave to him?
God didn't give him a bumpy pecker, and neither did the hooker. He bought it cash, no refund.
pretty sure god gave you the bumpy pecker, Terry, as a warning about your choice in women.
This was literally the homily at my church today. Don’t judge, it’s mostly a social and cultural thing for me. “Doctors, nurses, scientists and all healthcare workers are agents of God. Listen to them you little shits.” (Paraphrased heavily, of course.)
I think I would go to church more if that wasn't paraphrased 😎
I mean, the only part I paraphrased is the exact wording. Not the sentiment. My priest is absolutely gas and great craic, so I know that when he was calling out those who reject God’s agents in science and medicine, in his head he was calling them little shits. If we ever got a priest less cool, I think I’d have to think real hard about my promise to my late wife to raise our kids Catholic and take them to Mass and my own displeasure with a decent chunk of Catholic dogma.
I have said to my evangelical in-laws, God gave us science, why do you ignore this? He gave us answers to disease and cures for cancer, they will go to the hospital for medical help so they must believe in medical science. I just can’t believe the propaganda works so well on the right wing such that they’ll vote away all that benefits them if a rich man tells them to. It’s some kind of hypnotism, they didn’t feel like this (well, not this angry and ready for fascism) as was ten years ago…. Now they’re lathered up for an imaginary enemy rich guys convinced them they have.
Its so weird, isnt it? I used to have a US friend as well and he always had some... uh.... 'out-there' ideas, but when Trump burst into the scene, he went full trumpeteer and we just lost him. Like, "I dont want any contact with you guys and also we should start a nuclear first strike against China. And delete my entire comment history from the forum."
People went insane over Trump and I still don’t understand it. I won’t talk politics with my brother anymore. We can hang out, I’m still an uncle, No Politics.
This is sadly not an uncommon occurrence in the US. I've lost a couple people to similar kinds of delusions.
The farce of it is, people DO believe in science they just pick and choose what science they believe in - without any understanding of any of it. Id bet most climate change deniers use cell phones, because they're convenient. But when it comes to climate change all of a sudden they're deniers and this is a science they choose not to believe.
It is funny/not funny that they sit behind this magnificent invention (internet, computers in general), to pound their keyboards on how science is the farce! lol it’s not funny but all I can manage these days is a weak giggle at how fkd that is.
NDGT talks about this a fair amount. It’s called ‘God of the gaps’. With every scientific development that advances our knowledge of how the universe works, their god gets a little bit smaller - and it’s a carnal, fear-based reaction to have to replace faith (so intrinsic in identity) with fact. People don’t like to see their god shrinking - when it can so easily be reframed into him (or her or it) simply revealing the brilliance of their design. This, to me, is spearheaded by the religious institutions that anchor their power and authority on dogma that is, at best, on shakey ground. It subsequently trickles down to their congregations.
“God did it” is just another way these people say “I only support things I agree with.”
that's like the joke , why does the dog always run for the door? it's hardly ever for them
Parents neighbors were the same way. They were getting foreclosed on and my parents offered to buy their house. It was a seasonal second home and my parents would have just rented it out and let them use it for the couple weeks a year they used it anyways. They refused saying "god would help them through their issues". House got taken by the bank, auctioned off, and they made out with nothing. Absolutely delusional. God won't pay your bills.
>God won't pay your bills. In your story, he tried to through your parents, lol
True that. Told my parents they were wasting money trying to bail them out. If they wanted the house they should just get it at auction on discount.
>Both sides say the HOA offered to settle the case and waive the fees if Byrd took the camera down. Byrd says she didn’t take the deal because, for her, it wasn’t about the money, it was about the camera. The HOA’s lawyers say if she had settled, they would not be asking the judge for her to pay the attorney fees. She also had an out, and didn't take it
at VERY minimum just take down the camera and settle the case AND THEN bring a better judicial standing regarding the one camera you want. also, as an electrician, it would seem that she could mount the camera facing down (horizontally) from the overhang of the stoop and make it not noticeable from the street, not recording anyone away from her stoop, and still recording all activity at her stoop. she dun fukkd up.
This is literally what we had to do with our HOA. They noticed our doorbell cam, so we had to instead put a camera looking down on our front stoop so only people who were well onto our property would be recorded. I fucking hate HOAs.
trust... i live in an unincorporated township (see: home rule) in Northern Michigan. we 100% bought our property because of the laws. no HOA, no noise ordinance, no nothing... but, that means neighbors need to be good to each other... anyway, our first home was in an HOA and the only thing that happened in 5 years was we had to pay 100$ and all of the roads were resurfaced. long story long, i know how shite an HOA can be, but, i moved out of a nice one and now live in a swamp.
This is reasonable, though.
There are reasons to hate HOAs but requiring cameras to only film your property and not your neighbors isn't one of them.
>so only people who were well onto our property would be recorded. Pretty much the rule in (most of) the EU. Can't film anything not your property. Neighbours shouldn't have to be recorded in their own yard or walking down the street just because you want a camera.
My friend used to live in this building, so I’ve been in it before. There is no stoop. It’s just interior hallways like a dorm building.
Jesus Christ. Imagine being drugged, sexually assaulted, then losing a $70,000 court case, and thinking “well, at least I can count on God”
What she went through was tragic and left her deeply traumatized. I have sympathy for her wanting a ring bell. Because I have never owned a ring bell, this question might sound stupid. Could she have positioned the camera so it only showed her doorway?
I have sympathy for her too To answer your question, it’s Tough to know without knowing the layout of the condos. The ring cameras are usually part of the door knob assembly, so they look straight out from the door- like a peephole. So chances are it would always be able to capture other residents as they walk down the hallway. Also, it records a lot of Audio as well, so it might capture residents who aren’t even in view of the camera.
> “God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” Translation -> I'm too lazy to make decisions / do things on my own.
She’s a scared woman who was drugged and sexually assaulted. Yall are showing a lack of empathy here. The HOA could’ve checked with the neighbors who would’ve been in view of the camera and if they were ok with it, let her have her camera. Their point about allowing her to put up cameras inside her home only helps in providing evidence, not in preventing another crime.
> Their point about allowing her to put up cameras inside her home only helps in providing evidence, not in preventing another crime. The ring camera does the same. I’m empathetic to her cause but she had a lot of ways out of this and I understand the neighbors want their privacy respected.
With a Ring camera you can check to see who is at your door without them knowing you’re home. Peeking through the curtains might be seen by the person standing on the stoop. It’s also a deterrent the same way a dog is. Criminals will be less likely to target a house with external security.
The mental gymnastics of people expecting God to fix their problems are insane. God didn’t prevent her sexual assault so why would he prevent her from having to pay this money? He either stops bad things from happening to you, or he doesn’t. Also, maybe this is God finding a way to get the other party $73,000 for something going on in their lives. People always think God will do things for them, but God has to get the money from someone…
This has to be the only reddit thread where people side with an HOA
I mean she lost the trial and was STILL given the choice by the HOA to just settle and the HOA would waive all the legal fees (115k) and the 73k fine if she just took the camera down. She said no.
I know the article confuses things but the settlement offer was before the trial.
Which is wild because omg. A ring camera can be a lifesaver if not evidence in court if she were ever sexually assaulted/assaulted/had an attempted assault again
For real! This is DISGUSTING! She should be allowed for her safety
Honey, God wants you to settle, They're not paying those bills for you so stop thinking They will.
I knew someone that worked the phones at a credit card call center for a while. Said a woman called in one night, asking why they received a bill showing she owes a balance of 10k, with a minimum due of $200 or whatever it was. My buddy explained that she opened her card a month ago and that she had maxed the card out in that first month, which is why it was showing a 10k balance. Woman on the other end goes silent for a second, before saying that she thought that the credit card was a gift from God, so she didn't understand why she had to pay it all back.
That's basically what my brother says when someone loans him money.
There was an argument that went on outside and in the apartment next to mine for about three hours in the wee hours last week. Two very drunk guys with a lot of issues from the incoherent shouting I could translate. There was one bit that I did understand and it included the longest silence of the episode: Drunk 1: I'm not giving you money. When I give you money you never pay it back! Drunk 2: You've only ever loaned me money once! Drunk 1: And did you pay me back?
You never give out money expecting it back. It's a nice surprise if it happens.
That is a very good philosophy from a lender's side, and I agree with you. It's not OK hearing it from a lendee, though.
You broadened my horizon today. I never thought about the reverse.
Yup, this is the only way to help someone with money. It’s a gift. A gift to a friend or family member is a thing that can make you feel good, and hopefully helps them. A loan on the other hand will just create tension on all sides. Even if they are grateful up front, the loanee will ultimately resent or shame of the obligation to pay it back and the loaner will be in a limbo of waiting to be paid back or upset that they got stiffed.
The only right response to that as a call rep is : “Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and unto Discover, what is Discovers” Lmao
would go so far over their head they wouldn’t hear the whoosh
As a Christian guy that gives financial counseling for small groups at church, I’m using this from now on lol.
I worked credit card phones and I've heard this same convo from multiple agents. Thank God I wasnt in customer service but the underwriting side of things. Still had to deal with delusional assholes but more not understanding how credit scores work. I was once told that it was someone's God given right to have a credit card, when they had an income of 30k, revolving debt of like 100k, and a credit score of 450 from nonpayment.
I see a lot of people complaining that credit scores are a "scam" any time the numbers go down (still in a good range) because they closed a credit account... Considering that the score is an *extremely summarized* evaluation of "is this person safe to lend money to" of course major changes in your credit accounts will change it, at least for a while. Are lenders just supposed to take you entirely at your word? :/ That said I think credit scores are overused for too many things and have too much of an impact on things like affordable housing, when it exists at all... but I also totally get why a landlord would want to weigh "do they pay their debts?" given how expensive and troublesome it can be to evict someone who's simply decided not to pay for whatever reason.
That's what lack of education + religion does
But seriously though. That settlement agreement is a gift from god. Waiving all fees just to remove the camera. That’s like getting sentenced to time served for a felony.
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God collects money and gives you a nice hope you'll get it back later
Just Americans give/donate $465 billion per year to 501c(3) and 501c(4) organizations… Half a trillion dollars PER YEAR
By no means an expert but doesn’t it say somewhere that god wants you to give everything away and live in poverty?
Matthew 19:21-24 New King James Version (NKJV) Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
You mean that one bible quote? "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." I think the idea was moreso god doesn't want you to larp as Scrooge Mcduck, but that probably doesn't mean living in a cardboard box? But I'm not a theurgist or whatever they're called so take that with a grain of salt
Theurgist = wizard. Theologian? However wizard is also appropriate
Reminds me of a [joke ](https://www.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/18pzj6s/god_and_his_will/)I once heard: >A devout person is caught in a flood. As the waters rise, they climb onto the roof of their house and pray to God for help. >A neighbor in a canoe comes by and offers to take them to safety, but the person refuses, saying, “I’m waiting for God to save me.” >As the water keeps rising, a rescue team in a boat comes along, urging the person to get in, but again they refuse, saying, “God will rescue me.” >Finally, as the water reaches the rooftop, a helicopter descends with a ladder, and once more, the person turns down the help, saying, “I have faith that God will save me.” >Tragically, the person drowns. When they meet God in heaven, they ask, “Why didn’t you save me?” God replies, “I sent you a canoe, a boat, and even a helicopter! What more were you expecting?”
When we moved a decade ago, my one requirement was no HOA. If we ever move again, it will be to a non-HOA location. This resident knew the rules, was aware of the fines, and still continued to accrue this massive debt. Yes, the rule is absolutely ludicrous, but it's an HOA. That's sort of what they're known for. The HOA in my former neighborhood consisted of failed schoolyard bullies and bored octogenarians.
It's not ludicrous. I should be able to come home without my neighbor taking a picture every time it happens. Also, if she really disliked the rule, she had the opportunity to convince other members of her HOA to change the rule
TLDR? American sites not available in europe because they don't want to follow privacy rules here probably
Best I can do is a copy paste: CHARLOTTE — Teywonia Byrd lives inside Fat City Condos in NoDa. She’s a single woman who lives alone. “I was drugged unbeknownst to me and then sexually assaulted,” she told Action 9′s Jason Stoogenke. She says she’s been living on edge even since so she put a Ring camera on her door. She found out she needed homeowners association approval, so she submitted a request, but the HOA said no. “So I had mentally prepared for the threat of that, but no type of preparedness could ever have brought me to this point,” she said. She kept the camera and the HOA cited her $100 per day. That went on for years. “It’s difficult to put into words,” she said. The HOA’s lawyers told Stoogenke this case was “never about an exterior door modification.” They say it was about privacy. The HOA didn’t want Byrd -- or any resident -- being able to record neighbors. They say “nothing would have prevented Ms. Byrd from putting a dozen cameras up inside her own unit for her own security, which she has never done.” Byrd sued the HOA, went to trial, had a jury, and lost. “It feels like I’ve been alive every single moment and every single day with nothing but pain and injustice,” she said. So she has to pay $73,000. Stoogenke asked Byrd if she can afford that. “God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” she said. And the HOA’s lawyers are asking for Byrd to pay attorney fees: $65,000 for one part of the case and $50,000 for another. Both sides say the HOA offered to settle the case and waive the fees if Byrd took the camera down. Byrd says she didn’t take the deal because, for her, it wasn’t about the money, it was about the camera. The HOA’s lawyers say if she had settled, they would not be asking the judge for her to pay the attorney fees.
Fat City Condo? 🤔
The whole first sentence is a wild ride, especially with that pic next to it.
How does the HOA justify damages that support a single fine much less this ridiculousness?
Seems like nobody here replying to you has actually read the article. The HOA was issuing fines to them($100 per day) per the bylaws. The homeowner then sued the HOA. She initiated the legal action and lost. The HOA is seeking their legal fees be paid by her. Heck they offered a settlement where she just takes down the camera and The HOA eats the legal fees, And she kept pushing the lawsuit.
Yeah, a lot of HOA/COA contracts have attorneys fees clauses exactly for cases like this, to discourage sides from bringing a lawsuit and encourage an amicable settlement. It also means whoever wins gets their legal fees paid instead of being out a ton of money even though they won the suit. She would have hers paid if she'd won the suit.
It's breach of contract. She signed and agreed to rules and to the fines for breaking rules. The numbers are made up, but she consented to them. HOAs work and exist through contracts the homeowners consent to, and they consent when purchasing the house. The entire neighborhood was built under a contract that buyers must be in the HOA, with all the benefits and penalties It's pretty bullshit, that's why you just don't buy there. The double bullshit is when you literally can't buy property anywhere without one due to short housing supply and the pervasive use of HOAs
It's a condo, the HoA is necessary in that it manages the building all the condos are in. Without it you'd be at the mercy of neighbors kindness to fix roofs, take care of hallways and elevators etc. When all the units are owned there is no "rental company" to fix things outside your unit.
The problem is that inevitably the HoA board has busybodies who are not there because they care about roof maintenance, but because they want to be able to fine their neighbors if they don't like the color of their patio furniture.
Funny part is these people are voted in and much like national politics, horrible people get in because barely anyone cares to vote and nobody good wants to run for a horrible unpaid position where people just complain to you every day. It mostly attracts people with many gripes and no power in their daily lives.
This is so true! It’s like pulling teeth to ask people to even come to HOA meetings much less take any board position. It’s infuriating really because I don’t want to be on an HOA board but no one else wants to and someone has to make sure our property mgmt is doing their job, bills are getting paid, our building is safe, etc. It’s not even much work, but we can’t convince people. A couple of older people would love to give some more recent owners the reins, but no one has any interest. Complete apathy until someone has to bitch about something. We sincerely ask them to please join because they can help with the specific issue and others, and you might have guessed, they never take you up on it!
Aways amazes me about Americans who go on all day about freedom, and then invent an organization specifically to take away freedoms
Americans like *their* freedoms, but tend to disapprove when other people use it in ways they don't agree with. :p
To put it another way, some people's idea of freedom is not "live and let live" but "the 'freedom' to tell other people how to live their lives"
HOAs are entered into freely and voluntarily, and you know you're getting into one when you purchase the property. Plus for a condo its 100% necessary to have a governing body of the owners since the building is a shared common asset.
The workaround is you get to know your neighbors and find some like minded ones to run for seats on the HOA and dismantle all the shitty rules from the inside.
> It's breach of contract. She signed and agreed to rules and to the fines for breaking rules. I'm going to counter with that when it comes to an HOA, rules can easily be changed or added, and you may not agree with them.
> The HOA didn’t want Byrd -- or any resident -- being able to record neighbors. I mean, this seems like as valid a reason as any. A home is a private place, and respecting that privacy is important to a lot of people. Especially when you consider that a lot of those doorbell cams are directly accessible by law enforcement. HOA fines have to exist for violations because without teeth, assholes just won't listen. Yeah, HOAs are rightfully the subject of a great many horror stories, because often they have some really petty rules, but this case doesn't seem petty.
Bylaws that both parties agreed to a rule, “Don’t do X or we will fine you Y.” She did X. They’re fining her Y.
They even offered to waive if she stops. She refused.
HOAs do not have to justify damages. This is no different than the vast majority of local ordinances. The HOA contract stipulated $100 fine assessed each day for the violation. It appears that the HOA capped it at two years exactly. $100 x 2(365 days) = $73,000. She was stupid for believing that she could convince a juror to ignore the basics of the contract and side with her solely based on her feelings. Nobody chose to do so, and this was an open and shut case.
The HOA offered to waive everything of she just took the camera down. She refuses. Everything outside your unit is community property, not yours. Thst includes the exterior of your door.
Well that was a lot sadder than I expected
wait, seriously? wirth the well deserved hate hoas get, the hoa won?
Tldr: Homeowner put up Ring doorbell. HOA said no. Homeowner sued and lost and must pay fine and all attorney fees.
The $73K isn’t the attorney fees. It’s 2 years worth of daily fines for keeping the camera up without permission. The attorney fees are an additional 65k and 50k
115k in attorney's fees over a Ring camera? What a racket!
Sure. But lawyers ain’t cheap. And considering they needed to convince a jury to rule against a rape victim in favor of an HOA, I’m guessing they got some top shelf representation. Not only that, but it’s worth mentioning that the HoA offered to waive **all** of the fees if the lady would remove the camera, but she never did
Usually getting attorneys fees paid in a case as a defendant is pretty rare right? The court would basically have to view it as an extremely frivolous suit with little standing
HOAs have a lot of power to make whatever rules they want. Make sure you read all the CC&R before signing. There is a busy body who will hold you to every single file in there.
Just to add context, this woman has filed restraining orders and harassment suits on most of her neighbors. She runs a TikTok account where she not only captures the way she breaks rules and harasses neighbors, but also posted a photo of a deceased neighbor saying she got her karma. She was voted out of her apartments HOA due to her harassment and is now trying to retaliate but continuing to sue her neighbors.
Wow. That would've been useful information to include in the article. This kind of context sure does change things.
Definitely need a source on that because that changes a lot of things if this is true
To Be fair why would a US based local television station change their website to follow foreign laws. They obviously know what little viewership they get from outside of their area. And to make something GDPR compliant, can be quite cost prohibited.
lol at all of the people who are like “don’t live with an HOA.” Guys, this is a condo. It is a cooperative organization by definition.
This lol. You literally can't choose unless you opt out of living in any condo. Whether they're HOAs, condo boards, whatever name they're called in different countries... there is some organization that's there to ensure the upkeep of the condo's common areas. Like who do you think does elevator repairs? Ensure the hallways are clean? Take out the garbage? Maintaining the gym/pool? It's not the residents that are doing it.
Yep, keeps the roof in good condition too, and most condo buildings would quickly end up condemned by the city without a board/HOA maintaining the common exterior, parking, and landscape.
Remember that a very large population of this site is teenagers
Exactly, no such thing as a condo without an HOA at this point. Pretty hard to avoid HOAs at all in the US. Like sure avoid it if you can, but that’s tough to do in most areas
But not are HOAs are equal right? Some dictate the color of your front door, some only care about general safety measures.
This is why I decided against a condo. A SFH for one guy is a bit wasteful, but I have a Ring camera and no bullshit.
Not everyone can afford a SFH. Where I live, the median home price is $1M
If you have the option, NEVER live anywhere with an HOA
That literally cuts you out of every single condo in the world.
Yeah, its so hard to find a condo without HOA where I live, hard as in I've never seen one. Still, you actually want HOA in condos, you need someone to take care of the exterior.
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And if it's a high rise condo, you need a fund for the elevator maintenance and eventual replacement.
Maintaining the parking areas, curbs, trash, etc too. It's inevitably a cooperative establishment that requires a cooperative to manage the cooperative elements. It's not necessarily a bad thing except that people aren't very nice to each other, it turns out.
A condo without an HOA would quickly fall apart lol
It’s hard to find because in the US they are illegal. Condos must have an HOA equivalent for insurance reasons (the HOA is the necessary named insured for certain exterior portions of the building itself)
Sharing a building with 1-7 other people gets messy when you don't have a way to manage shared resources
Hence the “if you have the option” part
Agree that HOAs can be a pain. But having read the article, the HOA is not in the wrong on this one. The woman is just bonkers. Putting a camera outside your door in a hallway that monitors everyone passing to their unit or the elevator? lol, no.
HOA is power grab by people who want power trips, not very different from people who want to be cops but are the worst ones to really be one.
Luckily all mine does is (for $25/mo) is pay for trash/recycling and maintain the the common areas (couple of community playgrounds and mow the walking trails) Any rule enforcement is basically limited to "weeds in your decorative rocks".
Not a bad cost, I think I pay that much just for garbage pickup
Some are awesome. I’ve never been on a board, but been inside some great HOAs. They’re not all nightmares.
Even a good one can turn into a nightmare when new board members are elected.
Yup I used to think the same as the guy above. I’ve been lucky my whole life with landlords, neighbors, and the HOE of my complex. Resigned my lease around the time board change happened. Was absolutely bonkers
Found the dude with 3 broke down trucks in the front yard and grass up to your waist.
HOAs aren't that bad. People just don't talk about good ones because there's no story to tell with them.
Like most things, HOA's can be either not a big deal, or the worst thing in your life. The problem with HOA's is that you probably won't know, until it's too late. An HOA can start out "not so bad" and become "the worst thing ever" in just a couple years, based on who gets elected, and what they do.
minimal upside and nearly unlimited downside. Even if she had won, now the HOA has to jack up their fees to pay for their attorney. At least they are only going for costs at the moment, not trying to take her house.
How would you propose a condominium be managed without a HOA? Who will maintain the common spaces and (if any) shared utilities (trash, for example)?
All it takes for a good HoA to turn bad is a change in management.
...so just like a government? How's HOA different than a super-localized version of a city council?
Its basically the same thing People bitch about something they have an insane amount of control over
The problem is, the good ones are only one election away from becoming a bad one. I would never move into an HOA. Might as well rent.
It's nice when you have that option but in plenty of places, the entire county is basically subdivisions with HOAs.
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You're allowed to have a rooster but not hens? How does that make sense?
Pretty sure they were saying a hen is much less objectionable than a rooster, and they're not allowed to even have hens. Not that they're allowed to have roosters.
They seemed to bitch and moan about my ugly ass car when I moved in with my sister like it was my fault I was poor.
HOAs are like fashion shows. You only hear about the bizarre, outlandish bits from avant garde designers while 99% of the show is just new styles of regular clothing.
>”I was drugged unbeknownst to me and then sexually assaulted,” she told Action 9′s Jason Stoogenke. >She says she’s been living on edge even since so she put a Ring camera on her door. She found out she needed homeowners association approval, so she submitted a request, but the HOA said no. > They say “nothing would have prevented Ms. Byrd from putting a dozen cameras up inside her own unit for her own security, which she has never done.” Telling a rape survivor that they can’t ever do anything to protect themselves unless it’s already too late to do something, because that’s what knowing someone is attempting to break into your house is for so you can know about the danger before it makes coffee in your kitchen, is a perfect encapsulation of everything wrong with this country Edit: guys, idk what to tell you here. Unless you can see through walls, then an outside camera is way more effective at giving you warning and lead time than anything that only functions after the locks are broken. If you disagree, please grab a member of your house, have them stand outside and open the door. When you hear the door open, see how long it takes you to “call” the police, have them run to you as they open the door, and then add five minutes. Did they reach you? Did you hide long enough? Five minutes later is when the cops would get there, so hopefully you managed to hide cuz they can do some damage in five minutes! Now do the same thing again, but have them wait two minutes before they open the door. Use about 1 minute and 45 seconds of that time to call the police, find a weapon, and hide somewhere. Now when your friend breaks in, wait three minutes. Did they find you? That should tell you whether it’s better to have the exterior camera or just the internal system
Yeah, I’m with you on this one. Let the poor woman put a camera to watch her door. . . Jfc have a heart.
I wonder if she could have done this so long as the camera only recorded her own property (meaning, aimed down from above). I feel for rape victims, as any normal person would, but you have to wonder if there’s something else going on here. She was fined daily for a long period and refused to find some compromise? HOAs are crazy, so I’m not taking their side at all, but it just seems like there’s more to the story. Also, having a camera outside of your house likely won’t prevent rape better than having an alarm, a dog, etc. Hell, a sticker that says you have cameras would be sufficient if you just want to scare people off. The exception would be if she knew her attacker, of course.
I read on another thread that it was exactly this, they had rules against recording neighbors and the ring camera pointed at other units
So just install a camera above your door that points down.
Makes to much sense, she’d rather pay the 73k
It's a condo building, so her door probably opens onto a shared hallway. A motion activated camera that is going to be useful for seeing who is at her door is also going to record her neighbors comings and goings.
Not only that but if you read the article, she is the one that initiated the legal action after years of ignoring the fines. A settlement was offered where she agrees to take it down and pays nothing. She didn't take it and predictably lost the suit, and now also has to pay the HOAs lawyer fees.
My across-the-hall neighbor's ring doorbell chimes literally every time I open my front door, even just to drop the trash out. It's so annoying.
Except they didn't say, " they can’t ever do anything to protect themselves". She can put 100 locks on her door, arm herself to the teeth, get a dog, door alarm, cameras indoors, etc., etc. The HOA simply said it doesn't want cameras outside since it can record other tenants, which likely due to some sort of invasion of privacy. They even offered to settle. Sometimes people are stubborn and don't look for alternatives.
Considering the statements I have access to from the hoa, I don't think they would have had an issue with a camera that only has a view of her jard.
Unfortunately, and I HATE saying this, but the HOA is in the right here. Let's give the benefit of the doubt and take their reasoning at face value: that this ruling is to ensure the privacy of other residents. I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. As much as I empathize with an SA survivor, their rights don't overrule the rights of others around them. Privacy is one of the most paramount rights a person has and in this day an age is under constant threat. And I'm sorry, but there's nothing a ring camera is going to achieve that a simple peep-hole or intercom cannot. A ring camera is not going to prevent an intruder from entering the premises. I'm not sure what the context of "condo" is here, but if there's no external access to the unit then it's also very likely the building already has security measures in place at external access points. Ms. Byrd is not in the right here, and she was given a lot more opportunity to resolve this than I would have expected given how monstrous HOAs usually are. Unfortunately this entire situation is on her and she should pay.
Nah. She could have sat her ass in a chair beside her door with a journal keeping notes of what times people come in and out of her view, and who they are, etc with the exact same "invasion" of privacy. She could have stood in her doorway or looked at the peep-hole all day and done the same thing. The camera just does it as her proxy; it doesn't have access or ability to do anything she herself didn't have access to or the ability to do. None of the people potentially being recorded from the camera's vantage are having their privacy violated when using a common area that other people have legitimate access to as well.
I don't think the HOA told her "she can't ever do anything to protect herself" at all. They told her no exterior cameras. She could have spent a fraction of this money on interior cameras, a security system, locks, panic buttons, tasers, all kinds of things, that would protect her more than a ring camera. It's unfortunate that it got to this point.
If she only wanted the ring doorbell camera, why not use the peephole cam instead? https://ring.com/products/door-peephole-security-camera It shows who is coming to the door, what is happening in the yard, and does not violate the external camera HOA restrictions. Also, never live in an HOA if possible.
I would have thought it would have the same problem with the HOAs rules about not recording other people's properties, but it's not like anyone would ever know unless you told them. This person seems to be unwilling to compromise though.
That's still an exterior camera. However, there are peephole cameras that mount on the inside.
It's wild to me how many people are cheering on the HOA here. Very strange.
Hold on. This article is atrocious. Was this written by AI? Or a high school student? wtf is happening to our media.
I was thinking 5th grader, but yeah, it's bad.
A comprehensive alarm system with window, door, and motion sensors as well as indoor cameras would have cost a hell of a lot less than the courts She really must have thought she would win
All that god stuff aside. If the Ring camera is facing her front door and isn’t facing somewhere inappropriate I don’t know why people in the comments are siding with the HOA especially after you’ve read the reason she install them. “But it’s written in the contract!” There are times where you have to think as a human for one day in your life instead of being a slave.
Why would it be facing her front door? It’s likely the opposite, directly facing neighbors door. While in principle I agree she should be able to keep it, I do find her dumb for not just taking it down and then going to war over it, or at LEAST taking the settlement. I hate HOAs but in this case this lady is just negligent.
That's not how Ring cameras work. They attach to your door frame and face outward.
same here. did we just enter into the phase of the moon where all the hoa officers popped up in this thread and in the jury box?
Never thought I'd see the day when anyone has anything supportive to say for HOAs. You all are nuts.
God I fucking loathe HOA’s. If their bylaws state in no uncertain terms that users cannot have an exterior recording device, then yeah she did break the rules. $100/day is a bullshit fine though. If they state that she cannot unless she has board approval and they denied her anyway, I’d fight it. But let’s face it, it’s not about privacy. Houses everywhere have some sort of exterior cameras. It’s about HOA board members flexing their authority and saying no. Source - I was on an HOA board once. I’ll never be able to scrub the ick off my body from that brief moment. Fortunately I never had to engage in any decisions like this. But can confirm that HOA board members are just wanna-be politicians and authoritarians.
I assume that Teslas are not allowed in the neighborhood either. How about cars that have dash cams?
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Sounds like she had lots of opportunities to do other things, and they even offered to forgive the amount owed if she just took down the camera.
In a way I understand the need for HOA. You want people to keep their property clean and in good repair in order to maintain property value. That is understandable to me and I think to a lot of other people who have had to live next to some trashy ass nasty people before. However, they pick the absolute most stupid shit to fight over. It’s a camera. It’s for safety, insurance, etc. Yeah yeah she signed a paper and bought into an HOA. That doesn’t mean this rule isn’t wrong and shouldn’t be removed. “It’s about the rules” yeah well the rule is fucking stupid.
Ring cameras/external facing cameras are not common in condos AT ALL. Go to most condos worldwide and you’ll probably find very few that allow them. Most people would view it as strange, because they don’t have the same mentality as people living in homes. Start allowing ring doorbells in condos and next thing you know you have creepy neighbours stalking people and pointing cameras at their doors across the hall. 99% of people don’t need ring/external cameras. But the way they’ve proliferated the US doesn’t surprise me given the mentality. The rule here really isn’t odd. It’s basic common sense that in a condo/apartment building you don’t point your own personal cameras into shared spaces like a creep.
Did the camera face/record a public road or sidewalk? That's illegal in a lot of places in Europe for privacy reasons. Without HOAs.
In most of the US, it is actually the opposite. In general, it is illegal to record someone when they have an "expectation of privacy", such as in their own home or fenced backyard, etc. However, they do not have that same "expectation of privacy" when on a public road or sidewalk; thus, it is legal to record them. In some places, there are some laws about recording conversations. . .for example, in a one party consent state, you can record any and all conversation you're a party of. . .but in a two- or more -party consent state, you'd need the permission of all those involved to record the conversation. . . so you may not be able to record audio in some cases, but video is usually still fine. Yet, there are also additional restrictions in some cases. . .like even when there is no expectation of privacy, you cannot record and use that recording for malicious purposes.. . . Yet, also exceptions, such as when recording evidence of criminal activity. The laws and regulations vary though across the country, so take it with a grain of salt.
The title says condo, so that probably means interior door. Similar to an apartment complex.
It did, and that was the root of the problem. It was recording all of the neighbors she was facing, and in a condo neighborhood that can be a lot of people that didn't want to be recorded.
It’s the opposite in the US. Once you’re outside, your expectation of privacy is voided since you’re visible to everyone.
It likely recorded a condominium hallway, which is private property owned by the condominium association.
>Stoogenke asked Byrd if she can afford that. “God will make a way. He always has. He always does,” she said. And the HOA’s lawyers are asking for Byrd to pay attorney fees: $65,000 for one part of the case and $50,000 for another. Sounds like her god gave her an out, and she slammed the door on it. She wouldn’t owe anything if she took it down. Hell, just find something else that’s less noticeable as a camera.
It's fucked up that the HOA is fighting a doorbell camera, but that person is a moron for leaving it up during the fight. I haven't seen a story in many years that made me say "Wow, the HOA seems kind of like the reasonable one here..."
HOW much in attorney fees? No judge in their right mind will approve attorney fees at this level for this minor of a dispute. Shame on them all.
How did a Jury side with the HOA? There has to be more to it than how it's being reported.
Ridiculous that you can't put a camera on your own doorway. Crazy decision by the HOA and horrible that courts agreed with it
The amount of people simping for the HOA is wild.