I'd say "that's crazy" but it's easy to forget that Virginia was politically a **deep** red state through the 1980s.
Also, it's 2024 and standalone bars still can't operate in the Commonwealth, so we tend to have some backwards laws when it comes to alcohol sales & service.
Better to say that Virginia was a deeply homophobic state into the aughts. We amended the state constitution to ban gay marriage or any form of domestic partnership in 2006. Salient arguments included “If we let men marry men and women marry women, who’s going to have children? We’ll have no population.”
> If we let men marry men and women marry women, who’s going to have children? We’ll have no population.
This is literally the gayest thing I've ever heard anyone say.
It's the equivalent of "I would be hawk-tuahing in the streets if not for this bill preventing me from doing so. My marriage would not survive it!"
It's the same people who claim that without the fear that their invisible sky dad watching over their shoulder, they'd be stealing and murdering nonstop.
Ah, I see the confusion. When you said, "Two years before California did the same," I read it as meaning, "Two years \[before Virginia\], California did the same thing."
But your intent was: "\[Virginia did it\] two years before California did the same thing."
We're in violent agreement, in other words. :)
>We amended the state constitution to ban gay marriage or any form of domestic partnership in 2006.
True. But for context, [California did the same thing in 2008. ](https://www.courts.ca.gov/6465.htm)
A **deep** red state would have gone for Goldwater in [the 1964 general election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_United_States_elections). Virginia was conservative but not ultra-conservative. The bigger issue was the Byrd machine, which was above all interested in self-dealing among its connected members.
I'm honestly surprised it happened as early as 1991 given the HIV/AIDS panic of the 1980s and how heavily gay men were stigmatized due to a lot of incorrect beliefs and stereotypes about the disease and community.
It was a deep red state? Sir/madam, it still is. NOVA is an exception to the rule, but NOVA is a bubble or practically its own state. It gets pretty red in the rest of VA. Southwestern VA is practically stuck in time.
Ah, this is what they want when they say "Make America Great Again"
Seriously, just looking at the Republican's track record through history, wouldn't that be enough to be like "Hmmm, I probably want to think independently of them"
That was prior to the realignment, where the dixiecrats went to the GOP. Saying Jim Crow came from democrats is functionally like saying Lincoln was a Republican: factually true, but also missing the point.
Prior to 1969, before the gay riots and revolt at the Stonewall Inn, in New York City, it was illegal to serve gay patron in bars there, from what I’m told.
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Yeah, well…just a reminder that there were still segregated school systems in Virginia (Roanoke) until 1971, and it was completely legal to rape your wife here up until 2002.
This state really ain’t got the best history when it comes down to it.
It is legal for law enforcement to have “sex” with people in their custody in Virginia. They passed a bill in the State Senate but the House didn’t select it for funding…
Testimony. "They've been seen at various underground establishments". "They've openly admitted they are gay" or past arrest records say that violated (at the time) sodomy or other decency laws or things of that nature. Propositioning undercover police officers etc.
It really was not that easy. They would arrest you in a public bathroom and then press you to tell them everyone you know that is gay and right it down for a lighter punishment.
In the 80's and 90's it was probably mostly the military doing this anyway. DC had a lot of gay event nights and some gay bars as well.
And it wasn’t necessarily that gay people would wander into bars they weren’t welcome and attempt to drink there and “get caught”. They knew they weren’t welcome. This is why so many low key gay bars existed. I believe Nob Hill in DC was one of them. And obviously StoneWall in NYC. People knew they existed but they were constantly raided by police and this is how people would be caught. It was just another way to constantly terrorize them
A very gay former roommate (and native Virginian) told me eons ago that Virginia doesn’t have gay bars because up until not too long ago, being a homosexual was considered a mental illness in Virginia, and in Virginia it was against the law to serve alcohol to the mentally ill. Obviously, modern thinking on this has changed, but archaic laws remain on the books.
Back in 1991 we did an ACTUP or Queer Nation demo in Crystal City and afterwards went to the Hyatt for drinks, announced loudly that we were homosexuals, ordered drinks, were served then asked to see the manager and demanded that he calk the police to arrest everyone. He was a really sweet gay guy and politely refused. We then tried calling the police who laughed at us so we just stayed and drank and had a great time.
In 1993, I went to an amazing New Year’s Eve party hosted by a gay couple, in their beautifully renovated Victorian in the Fan District.
Some people were ready to live their lives, regardless of the dangers.
There's actually an Episcopal church in the Museum District that has had a pretty gay congregation since at least the 70s. Not all gay people were closeted or in NYC/SF.
Rep. Barney Frank came out in the late '80's. Granted, he was from Massachusetts, but still, acceptance was beginning to emerge in some parts of the country by then. By 1988, several friends and acquaintances were already "out".
I worked for an AIDS organization in DC from 93-96 and worked with many out gay and lesbian folks. We hung out a lot after work, going to bars and clubs.
You asked why someone might identify themselves as gay to the government. Anyone with a security clearance or a federal agency suitability determination could be asked about their sexual orientation, affiliations, actions, etc, especially in the early 1990s when sexual orientation wasn’t a protected class (that happened in 1998).
That’s not helpful. You asked about a bar and I corrected you since I thought it was clear that we were taking about humans. That’s what your initial question and my response were both about. I further clarified when I restated the question I was answering and then answered again.
I’m not dodging your question; the question as posed makes no sense. Please restate if you want a different answer.
I'm originally from Maryland, and my best friend is gay. He was taking me to gay bars in Baltimore in the late 80s and early 90s. We were so young it didn't even occur to us that in our neighboring state, that would have been illegal. I think I'll call him tonight and tell him what I've learned about my adopted state. We were so young and blissfully unaware and also not of legal drinking age at that time. Good times though.
This wouldn't have to be a TIL if the Youngkin Republicans weren't trying to whitewash our history to only include straight white men and a few tokens they've deemed acceptable.
Governor Northam told us that he did not know that black face was racially insensitive until he was campaigning for his governorship. He was elected.
Good grief. Racism is an action, like, wearing black face & trying to justify it by claiming you didn't know it was wrong until you were campaigning & had to defend your racist behaviors.
Let's not pretend that racist leadership is something new in Virginia, mkay?
Should you have time to look at laws passed and proposed all over the country by his maga friends, you’d see just how far back in time he wants to go..
I'm sorry that you are unable to see obvious analogies. Let me spell it out for you.
* Some Conservative Politicians campaigned for years promising they would not undo Roe v Wade.
* Conservative Judges promised they would not undo Roe v Wade.
* Meanwhile, grassroots Conservative groups called to undo Roe v Wade
* Conservative groups got their way and Roe v Wade was undone.
That's what is happening now with Gay Marriage.
* Some Conservative Politicians are campaigning that they will not undo Gay Marriage.
* Conservative Judges promised they would not undo Gay Marriage
* Meanwhile, grassroots Conservative groups are calling to undo Gay Marriage
* Step Four: ????????????????????
You can be as obtuse as you want but there is no fundamental difference there.
Cool story bro. For the record, I’m not a conservative. Not sure how you and all these other bozos camping in my mentions got to that conclusion, but whatever. It’s important to be kind to those with mental disabilities.
All I said was that the dude claiming to “gov sweater vest is gonna make it illegal to be gay” was to touch grass. Youngkin isn’t some far right boogeyman, he’s just about as middle of the road as they come in the Republican Party and he’s honestly done a decent job as governor.
I invite you to touch grass as well my friend
Despite your assurances, SCOTUS seems to think it’s an open question: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-roe-v-wade-abortion-contraception-lgbtq-marriage-clarence-thomas/
There’s a massive chasm between “republicans don’t like gay marriage” and “Youngkin is going to make being gay illegal”
Maybe it’s time to turn off the 24 hour news and touch grass.
Look up the Lavender Scare and the Johns Committee. We had a whole witch hunt for them in government service, universities, public schools...One would think there would be something better to spend all that money and effort on in the 50s, but alas.
There's how the law is supposed to work and there's how it actually works. In practice, the burden of proof is lower for oppressed minorities. There's tons of writing on this stuff, and laying bare systemic, pervasive injustice is kind of beyond the scope of a reddit post. The short version is that random witnesses would testify to seeing displays of affection, or police would arrest all the staff at an "infamous" gay bar. Often, though, the laws were intended to offer a pretense to screw with people, like cops claiming to have smelled weed.
I remember following that in the news. The upstairs bar had a mural covering a wall that included tasteful nude young men which they had to paint over with shorts as a compromise.
Honestly this is a perfectly fair law. It applies to everyone equally. If I become a Gay then I can't go into a bar either.
EDIT: I really thought the /s was obvious.
There's a good chance this had some crazy origin story like a politician was caught with his pants down and claimed that it could only be because he had been served gay alcohol and that the only way to ~~save face as a politician to continue to cling to power~~ or ummm "protect society" would be to pass a new law. Politicians today continue this proud tradition.
Thankfully Old Town has now painted pride flags in the cross walks on King st. next to market square. I can now beam with pride and inclusiveness whilst I cross the street there, as can all the rich white ladies as they drive over them in their luxury SUVs.
Old Town sure has come a long way in enabling its residents to feel good about themselves 🙏🌈
Kind of a moot point, as everyone was keeping that secret back then due to the AIDs scare. I'm betting there were plenty of gay bartenders, you just didn't know it.
It's moot in that it was completely unenforceable, they weren't closeted because of the law, they were closeted because of society as a whole. No one was closeted because they couldn't drink or work at a bar. They were worried about getting beat or even killed...
They were closeted because of the society of which the law was a part. They weren't closeted over that one law in the same way that they weren't closeted over one single person calling them f\*g. Systemic bigotry is a death by a thousand cuts.
Yes. Truly seems like a stupid law that should never have been enacted and certainly shouldn’t have needed the courts to step in. But it stayed til 1991
I'd say "that's crazy" but it's easy to forget that Virginia was politically a **deep** red state through the 1980s. Also, it's 2024 and standalone bars still can't operate in the Commonwealth, so we tend to have some backwards laws when it comes to alcohol sales & service.
Better to say that Virginia was a deeply homophobic state into the aughts. We amended the state constitution to ban gay marriage or any form of domestic partnership in 2006. Salient arguments included “If we let men marry men and women marry women, who’s going to have children? We’ll have no population.”
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Well… To be fair… Since Obergefell v. Hodges I’ve been elbow deep in c*k.
> elbow deep in c*k I'm not one to kink-shame, but this is a new one on me.
"If we let people build duplexes, there will be no more detached single family homes..."
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I exclusively officiate reptile - receptacle ceremonies
_sigh_ Yep, that
> If we let men marry men and women marry women, who’s going to have children? We’ll have no population. This is literally the gayest thing I've ever heard anyone say. It's the equivalent of "I would be hawk-tuahing in the streets if not for this bill preventing me from doing so. My marriage would not survive it!"
It's the same people who claim that without the fear that their invisible sky dad watching over their shoulder, they'd be stealing and murdering nonstop.
Two years before California did the same. It wasn't Virginia, it was America.
Two years AFTER.
Now, now. Let’s not fight over who out-bigoted who.
Prop 8 in California was 2008
Ah, I see the confusion. When you said, "Two years before California did the same," I read it as meaning, "Two years \[before Virginia\], California did the same thing." But your intent was: "\[Virginia did it\] two years before California did the same thing." We're in violent agreement, in other words. :)
>We amended the state constitution to ban gay marriage or any form of domestic partnership in 2006. True. But for context, [California did the same thing in 2008. ](https://www.courts.ca.gov/6465.htm)
A **deep** red state would have gone for Goldwater in [the 1964 general election](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_United_States_elections). Virginia was conservative but not ultra-conservative. The bigger issue was the Byrd machine, which was above all interested in self-dealing among its connected members.
I'm honestly surprised it happened as early as 1991 given the HIV/AIDS panic of the 1980s and how heavily gay men were stigmatized due to a lot of incorrect beliefs and stereotypes about the disease and community.
Most states still have backwards laws on the books when it comes to alcohol sales. A lot of vestiges of prohibition.
It was a deep red state? Sir/madam, it still is. NOVA is an exception to the rule, but NOVA is a bubble or practically its own state. It gets pretty red in the rest of VA. Southwestern VA is practically stuck in time.
Ah, this is what they want when they say "Make America Great Again" Seriously, just looking at the Republican's track record through history, wouldn't that be enough to be like "Hmmm, I probably want to think independently of them"
What's next, are they going to try bringing back the Jim Crow laws again?
Jim Crow came from democrats.
That was prior to the realignment, where the dixiecrats went to the GOP. Saying Jim Crow came from democrats is functionally like saying Lincoln was a Republican: factually true, but also missing the point.
Prior to 1969, before the gay riots and revolt at the Stonewall Inn, in New York City, it was illegal to serve gay patron in bars there, from what I’m told.
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Shit, the Supreme Court decision that legalized BEING gay nationwide was only 21 years ago. Recent history indeed.
Wow, 2003? That’s insane!
Lawrence V Texas.
We spent millions in police time and taxes chasing gays around the park for decades.
Considering my dad saw a sign in a restaurant in falls church that said “coloreds now allowed” put up in 1979 i can’t say im surprised at all
Yeah, well…just a reminder that there were still segregated school systems in Virginia (Roanoke) until 1971, and it was completely legal to rape your wife here up until 2002. This state really ain’t got the best history when it comes down to it.
It is legal for law enforcement to have “sex” with people in their custody in Virginia. They passed a bill in the State Senate but the House didn’t select it for funding…
That's interesting. Say someone wanted to fight this in court back then, how would the prosecution prove that someone is gay?
Testimony. "They've been seen at various underground establishments". "They've openly admitted they are gay" or past arrest records say that violated (at the time) sodomy or other decency laws or things of that nature. Propositioning undercover police officers etc.
It really was not that easy. They would arrest you in a public bathroom and then press you to tell them everyone you know that is gay and right it down for a lighter punishment. In the 80's and 90's it was probably mostly the military doing this anyway. DC had a lot of gay event nights and some gay bars as well.
And it wasn’t necessarily that gay people would wander into bars they weren’t welcome and attempt to drink there and “get caught”. They knew they weren’t welcome. This is why so many low key gay bars existed. I believe Nob Hill in DC was one of them. And obviously StoneWall in NYC. People knew they existed but they were constantly raided by police and this is how people would be caught. It was just another way to constantly terrorize them
In some places they would use laws like these to repeatedly raid gay bars.
A very gay former roommate (and native Virginian) told me eons ago that Virginia doesn’t have gay bars because up until not too long ago, being a homosexual was considered a mental illness in Virginia, and in Virginia it was against the law to serve alcohol to the mentally ill. Obviously, modern thinking on this has changed, but archaic laws remain on the books.
Back in 1991 we did an ACTUP or Queer Nation demo in Crystal City and afterwards went to the Hyatt for drinks, announced loudly that we were homosexuals, ordered drinks, were served then asked to see the manager and demanded that he calk the police to arrest everyone. He was a really sweet gay guy and politely refused. We then tried calling the police who laughed at us so we just stayed and drank and had a great time.
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In 1993, I went to an amazing New Year’s Eve party hosted by a gay couple, in their beautifully renovated Victorian in the Fan District. Some people were ready to live their lives, regardless of the dangers.
There's actually an Episcopal church in the Museum District that has had a pretty gay congregation since at least the 70s. Not all gay people were closeted or in NYC/SF.
Rep. Barney Frank came out in the late '80's. Granted, he was from Massachusetts, but still, acceptance was beginning to emerge in some parts of the country by then. By 1988, several friends and acquaintances were already "out".
I worked for an AIDS organization in DC from 93-96 and worked with many out gay and lesbian folks. We hung out a lot after work, going to bars and clubs.
Are you under the impression that the first Pride Parade was in 2009 or something?
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Anyone with a security clearance or agency suitability determination
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You asked why someone might identify themselves as gay to the government. Anyone with a security clearance or a federal agency suitability determination could be asked about their sexual orientation, affiliations, actions, etc, especially in the early 1990s when sexual orientation wasn’t a protected class (that happened in 1998).
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What question?
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That’s not helpful. You asked about a bar and I corrected you since I thought it was clear that we were taking about humans. That’s what your initial question and my response were both about. I further clarified when I restated the question I was answering and then answered again. I’m not dodging your question; the question as posed makes no sense. Please restate if you want a different answer.
I'm originally from Maryland, and my best friend is gay. He was taking me to gay bars in Baltimore in the late 80s and early 90s. We were so young it didn't even occur to us that in our neighboring state, that would have been illegal. I think I'll call him tonight and tell him what I've learned about my adopted state. We were so young and blissfully unaware and also not of legal drinking age at that time. Good times though.
Read about Loving v Virginia
That was in the 60s and a completely different (albeit important) topic
Virginia was (and in many ways still is) a kinda fucked up place.
This wouldn't have to be a TIL if the Youngkin Republicans weren't trying to whitewash our history to only include straight white men and a few tokens they've deemed acceptable.
Middleburg had a gay bar back in the 70s and/or 80s. I’m pretty sure it was called “the cock and bull” but have to double check with my parents
…and thanks to gov sweater vest and his maga/GQP friends, they want to take us back…
Governor Northam told us that he did not know that black face was racially insensitive until he was campaigning for his governorship. He was elected. Good grief. Racism is an action, like, wearing black face & trying to justify it by claiming you didn't know it was wrong until you were campaigning & had to defend your racist behaviors. Let's not pretend that racist leadership is something new in Virginia, mkay?
Except he’s not. Like at all.
He’s not what?
“Take us back” as you claimed. No one is trying to make being gay illegal. Touch grass.
Should you have time to look at laws passed and proposed all over the country by his maga friends, you’d see just how far back in time he wants to go..
> No one is trying to make being gay illegal. Oh they're NOT trying to undo Gay Marriage? Thanks for your reassurance!
Nope! That’s pure fearmongering to generate clicks for news sites and donations for the Democratic Party. Happy to help.
Right. And they're also not trying to Undo Roe v Wade. A few people SAID they weren't.
Not sure what Roe v Wade has to do with the discussion at hand. Care to try again?
I'm sorry that you are unable to see obvious analogies. Let me spell it out for you. * Some Conservative Politicians campaigned for years promising they would not undo Roe v Wade. * Conservative Judges promised they would not undo Roe v Wade. * Meanwhile, grassroots Conservative groups called to undo Roe v Wade * Conservative groups got their way and Roe v Wade was undone. That's what is happening now with Gay Marriage. * Some Conservative Politicians are campaigning that they will not undo Gay Marriage. * Conservative Judges promised they would not undo Gay Marriage * Meanwhile, grassroots Conservative groups are calling to undo Gay Marriage * Step Four: ???????????????????? You can be as obtuse as you want but there is no fundamental difference there.
Cool story bro. For the record, I’m not a conservative. Not sure how you and all these other bozos camping in my mentions got to that conclusion, but whatever. It’s important to be kind to those with mental disabilities. All I said was that the dude claiming to “gov sweater vest is gonna make it illegal to be gay” was to touch grass. Youngkin isn’t some far right boogeyman, he’s just about as middle of the road as they come in the Republican Party and he’s honestly done a decent job as governor. I invite you to touch grass as well my friend
And let me guess, January 6 was a tour totally overblown by the media?
I mean if that’s how you feel, that’s how you feel bud. Not sure what any of that has to do with anything I’ve said
Despite your assurances, SCOTUS seems to think it’s an open question: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/supreme-court-roe-v-wade-abortion-contraception-lgbtq-marriage-clarence-thomas/
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There’s a massive chasm between “republicans don’t like gay marriage” and “Youngkin is going to make being gay illegal” Maybe it’s time to turn off the 24 hour news and touch grass.
How would the government know you are gay?
Look up the Lavender Scare and the Johns Committee. We had a whole witch hunt for them in government service, universities, public schools...One would think there would be something better to spend all that money and effort on in the 50s, but alas.
Also for the Military lookup Blue Discharge....
Military is different. You sign up for them to do what they want to.
That does not answer my question
Respectfully, how does that not answer your question?
You talk about them looking. But not how they proved gay. In America we have innocent until proven guilty. How did the government prove they are gay?
There's how the law is supposed to work and there's how it actually works. In practice, the burden of proof is lower for oppressed minorities. There's tons of writing on this stuff, and laying bare systemic, pervasive injustice is kind of beyond the scope of a reddit post. The short version is that random witnesses would testify to seeing displays of affection, or police would arrest all the staff at an "infamous" gay bar. Often, though, the laws were intended to offer a pretense to screw with people, like cops claiming to have smelled weed.
And yet somehow, it didn’t stop them from enacting the law. Hmm…
That is the big question I am trying to answer. Congress gets away with everything (legal or not) that is not challenged in court
I remember following that in the news. The upstairs bar had a mural covering a wall that included tasteful nude young men which they had to paint over with shorts as a compromise.
More laws is almost never the answer
I bet they did. They just didn’t tell everyone they were gay.
Interesting. The year I was born and I’m gay. It’s like God knew.
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Honestly this is a perfectly fair law. It applies to everyone equally. If I become a Gay then I can't go into a bar either. EDIT: I really thought the /s was obvious.
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I know. I ***really*** thought the /s was obvious.
There's a good chance this had some crazy origin story like a politician was caught with his pants down and claimed that it could only be because he had been served gay alcohol and that the only way to ~~save face as a politician to continue to cling to power~~ or ummm "protect society" would be to pass a new law. Politicians today continue this proud tradition.
Yo that's wild.
Thankfully Old Town has now painted pride flags in the cross walks on King st. next to market square. I can now beam with pride and inclusiveness whilst I cross the street there, as can all the rich white ladies as they drive over them in their luxury SUVs. Old Town sure has come a long way in enabling its residents to feel good about themselves 🙏🌈
Old Town was a slum until it get gentrified in the 1970s
Didn’t really start to get gentrified till the 90’s my they/them
Yes… truly long for the days we could generate randomly conceived, unenforceable laws to make straight people feel self righteous and morally superior
 now we just paint crosswalks to accomplish the same thing 🌈
No gay swx until 2014. Straight to jail
Yup Sodomy Laws......
Kind of a moot point, as everyone was keeping that secret back then due to the AIDs scare. I'm betting there were plenty of gay bartenders, you just didn't know it.
That's not a moot point, that's thousands of people living a lie, constantly worrying if tomorrow will be the day the man tries to ruin their life.
It's moot in that it was completely unenforceable, they weren't closeted because of the law, they were closeted because of society as a whole. No one was closeted because they couldn't drink or work at a bar. They were worried about getting beat or even killed...
They were closeted because of the society of which the law was a part. They weren't closeted over that one law in the same way that they weren't closeted over one single person calling them f\*g. Systemic bigotry is a death by a thousand cuts.
Yes. Truly seems like a stupid law that should never have been enacted and certainly shouldn’t have needed the courts to step in. But it stayed til 1991