>A big reason why people seem to not be Christian is because of the Trinity being taught as a monotheistic concept.
Speaking as a polytheist, I don't think this is true at all.
Also there are non-Trinitarian Christianities, or at the very least non-Nicene Trinitarian Christianities. Jehovah's witnesses seem to have re-invented Arianism, which is nice for them, and of course there are quite a few Unitarians.
So if people were leaving because of the doctrine of the Trinity, they'd surely be going more and more to those sects and not leaving Christianity all together.
>By accepting there are 3 Gods, all of the activities within the OT can be blamed on the Father.
Congratulations, you've nearly reinvented Marcionism, one of the more antisemitic early Christian heresies.
You could accept a polytheist model of the Trinity and not have the antisemitic part of oh it's the God of the Jews that did all the bad things, by not relying on mythic literalism and instead looking at the Old Testament as a text to be interpreted with nuance and exegesis rather than as a historical narrative.
I do not think this is the reason why people are not Christian. This is not even mentioned among the reasons cited in studies inquiring as to why people have left a particular religion. I am a former Christian, and to be honest, presenting the trinity in this way would not move the needle for me in the slightest.
The overwhelming majority of christians just go to church a few times a week to listen to the preaching and socialize, they dont really think twice about what they are told and arent the ones leaving, people who are more invested in their beliefs are
If I had to, I would say the hateful rhetoric widespread in churches, general clerical corruption and lack of accountability for priests and pastors to be the actual main factor making people leave these communities, in developing countries such as mine, churches are used as tax havens and money laudering schemes by more unsavory elements of society like politicians or even the organized drug trade, people understandibly arent gonna be too thrilled about being a part of it
Theres also a whole lot of tribalism involved, everyone knows about all of these issues but are absolutely certain their congregation is the sole exception and is the correct, most christ-like community (it fucking isnt) and everyone else is in the wrong
> church a few times a week to listen to the preaching and socialize.
Unless they are Catholic. Our churches are sanctuaries not social hubs. One is not even supposed to talk in church 😅
It's actually between 1.2% and 6.8% according to multiple studies. However, I agree with the sentiment of your post.
Source:
[LGBT demographics of the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States#:~:text=Studies%20from%20several%20nations%2C%20including,adult%20population%20identifying%20as%20LGBT.)
The concept of a triple hypothesis predates Christianity and is a sophisticated philosophical and theological point that was adapted in early Christianity based on writings like the Gospel of John. The meaning was lost on some later Christian reformers.
The reason people are leaving Christianity has very little to do with how you define the trinity.
According to Pew's study "[Why America’s ‘nones’ left religion behind](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/08/24/why-americas-nones-left-religion-behind/)":
`About half of current religious “nones” who were raised in a religion (49%) indicate that a lack of belief led them to move away from religion. This includes many respondents who mention “science” as the reason they do not believe in religious teachings, including one who said “I’m a scientist now, and I don’t believe in miracles.” Others reference “common sense,” “logic” or a “lack of evidence” – or simply say they do not believe in God.`
That's a ludicrous statement. People aren't leaving the church in droves because the trinity is taught as a monotheistic concept. They are leaving for emotional or theological reasons and said theological reasons can be summed up in the phrase "I no longer believe that Christianity is the truth". The church should not change its teaching so radically to "appeal" to non believers. I also very much doubt that your average Christian cares about theology so they would not care about what words like "Polytheism" or "Monotheism" actually mean.
I cannot speak for all polytheists, but I can speak as a polytheist in saying that the idea of the Christian deity being a triple deity does not factor into my disinterest to the idea of converting.
What's interesting to me, is that some Church fathers were actually accused of heresy for trying to explain the Trinity in a way that would make sense to the followers.
I wouldn't be surprised. As a non-Christian who has attempted to understand the Trinity, the "That's modalism, Patrick!" video comes to mind.
Someone on reddit tried to explain it to me once, and I had no clue what they were talking about.
Usually because those explanations were bad explanations that encouraged a misunderstanding, though, not because they "made sense."
Modalism, for instance suggests that God is limited to only act certain ways in certain roles, and people aren't generally happy with implying that God is limited
His views are considered unorthodox, but I do not believe that he his expressly heretical they way that, say Arius, is considered heretical.
He is maybe not quite as accepted as Justin Martyr, who is a saint.
Origen is somewhere in the middle.
I was told by those who follow the orthodoxy that he is a heretic, it might be different depending on the sect.
I honestly don't understand how Justin Martyr was given sainthood when he believed that the Father and Son were distinct entities and that the Son was subordinate to the Father. Very different from modern Trinitarianism. It is clear henotheism.
I mean, its a funny thing to throw at some christians in a discussion, but I really doubt there is even a single person that was unconvinced of those specific sects by the trinity..
And again, some christians. I don't think the trinity is even a concept for all the big sects, and lets not talk about all the various small and random sects that exists...
I don’t know about that, however if Sophia was regarded as the Holy Spirit (A female person of the Trinity) it might be easier for some people who used to be Polytheistic, who were interested in Christianity, to adjust more easily (although I guess the Virgin Mary fits that Mother Goddess role pretty well too).
1 x 1 x 1 = 1
> the OT where we have rapists marrying their victims
Jewish law requires a woman's consent for marriage, the passage you're referencing is for youngsters caught cavorting. Rape is addressed a few verses prior, and likened to murder.
> Moses genociding infants and the suckling among the Amalakites
To understand this you first need to understand what Amalek is and how ancient Near Eastern literature was written. Amalek is not a tribe of people like the Hittites or Assyrians, they're more conceptual than that. They are a sort of proto-antiChrist.
And also Ancient Near Eastern literature was written to glorify the victor, and pre-Christian ideas of what that means seem very foreign to us. It's actually telling how tame the Bible is in this regard, especially given the character of Amalek.
>1 x 1 x 1 = 1
They are seen as being the same, yet seperate at the same time. This makes it seem as if they have same exact will, when the theology denies that.
>Jewish law requires a woman's consent for marriage, the passage you're referencing is for youngsters caught cavorting. Rape is addressed a few verses prior, and likened to murder.
Mostly referring to the way many Christians see it and argue for it. I have consistently seen Christians agree that it was rape and argue for why marrying a rapist is necessary. I am aware that the Jews have a different understanding of the verse.
>To understand this you first need to understand what Amalek is and how ancient Near Eastern literature was written. Amalek is not a tribe of people like the Hittites or Assyrians, they're more conceptual than that. They are a sort of proto-antiChrist.
>And also Ancient Near Eastern literature was written to glorify the victor, and pre-Christian ideas of what that means seem very foreign to us. It's actually telling how tame the Bible is in this regard, especially given the character of Amalek.
I understand the use of metaphor, allegory, and other literary concepts. But it is simply so descriptive, that I have a hard time believing it was not originally thought of as an actual event. Couple that with the verse of Moses telling his soldiers to take the woman who have not laid with a man for themselves, and it seems even less convincing that these events were not originally thought to have had actually happened.
If Christianity just admitted it was tri-theistic, it would make things less confusing (and it wouldn't invalidate the religion).
However, the confusing nature of the trinity is not one of the main reasons why people are leaving Christianity, not even in the top 25 reasons. Fundamentalism, abuse, freedom of religion, access to the internet, pedo priests existing/not being punished, homophobia, and a plethora of other things are why people are leaving Christianity.
“Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD OUT OF THE HEAVENS. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.”
Genesis 19:24-25 NIV
who is the Lord and who is the lord out of the heavens if God is only one?
"For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods." ([Ps 95:3](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2095.3)).
"God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment." ([Ps 82:1](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2082.1))
"For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD, a God feared in the council of the holy ones, great and terrible above all that are round about him? O LORD God of hosts, who is mighty as thou art, O LORD, with thy faithfulness round about thee?" ([Ps 89:6-8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2089.6-8))
Also, the verse you gave comes from the OT which was directly lifted from Judaic Scriptures that are known to have never alluded to the Trinity in any way.
You didn’t answer my question. And yes I realize this is from the Old Testament and the Jewish views on God being one. I also know that the Jewish views on God being two because of the Book of Daniel. Up until Jesus showed up that is.
Well, God isn't one. I just gave you verses where Yaweh is shown as being the king of multiple Gods. That would make it hellonism. Also the Trinity is the belief of the Father, son, and holy spirit being seperate but unified at the same time, it's 1+1+1=1. Thats not a concept that can be found in the Jewish scripture.
That's not why I'm not a Christian.
>A big reason why people seem to not be Christian is because of the Trinity being taught as a monotheistic concept. Speaking as a polytheist, I don't think this is true at all. Also there are non-Trinitarian Christianities, or at the very least non-Nicene Trinitarian Christianities. Jehovah's witnesses seem to have re-invented Arianism, which is nice for them, and of course there are quite a few Unitarians. So if people were leaving because of the doctrine of the Trinity, they'd surely be going more and more to those sects and not leaving Christianity all together. >By accepting there are 3 Gods, all of the activities within the OT can be blamed on the Father. Congratulations, you've nearly reinvented Marcionism, one of the more antisemitic early Christian heresies. You could accept a polytheist model of the Trinity and not have the antisemitic part of oh it's the God of the Jews that did all the bad things, by not relying on mythic literalism and instead looking at the Old Testament as a text to be interpreted with nuance and exegesis rather than as a historical narrative.
Plus Gnostic Christianity would be another option too if they wanted a polytheistic view of Christianity.
I do not think this is the reason why people are not Christian. This is not even mentioned among the reasons cited in studies inquiring as to why people have left a particular religion. I am a former Christian, and to be honest, presenting the trinity in this way would not move the needle for me in the slightest.
Thats likely one of the last possible reasons for people leaving the church, most lay people don't really care for theology
That is unfortunate, it seems I wrongly assumed that people were leaving the religion due to understanding the theology.
The overwhelming majority of christians just go to church a few times a week to listen to the preaching and socialize, they dont really think twice about what they are told and arent the ones leaving, people who are more invested in their beliefs are If I had to, I would say the hateful rhetoric widespread in churches, general clerical corruption and lack of accountability for priests and pastors to be the actual main factor making people leave these communities, in developing countries such as mine, churches are used as tax havens and money laudering schemes by more unsavory elements of society like politicians or even the organized drug trade, people understandibly arent gonna be too thrilled about being a part of it Theres also a whole lot of tribalism involved, everyone knows about all of these issues but are absolutely certain their congregation is the sole exception and is the correct, most christ-like community (it fucking isnt) and everyone else is in the wrong
> church a few times a week to listen to the preaching and socialize. Unless they are Catholic. Our churches are sanctuaries not social hubs. One is not even supposed to talk in church 😅
[удалено]
It's actually between 1.2% and 6.8% according to multiple studies. However, I agree with the sentiment of your post. Source: [LGBT demographics of the United States - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_demographics_of_the_United_States#:~:text=Studies%20from%20several%20nations%2C%20including,adult%20population%20identifying%20as%20LGBT.)
So you're asking christians to stop being christians?
The concept of a triple hypothesis predates Christianity and is a sophisticated philosophical and theological point that was adapted in early Christianity based on writings like the Gospel of John. The meaning was lost on some later Christian reformers.
> hypothesis Hypostases :)
Yep. That's my phone autocorrecting me 😆
The reason people are leaving Christianity has very little to do with how you define the trinity. According to Pew's study "[Why America’s ‘nones’ left religion behind](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2016/08/24/why-americas-nones-left-religion-behind/)": `About half of current religious “nones” who were raised in a religion (49%) indicate that a lack of belief led them to move away from religion. This includes many respondents who mention “science” as the reason they do not believe in religious teachings, including one who said “I’m a scientist now, and I don’t believe in miracles.” Others reference “common sense,” “logic” or a “lack of evidence” – or simply say they do not believe in God.`
That's a ludicrous statement. People aren't leaving the church in droves because the trinity is taught as a monotheistic concept. They are leaving for emotional or theological reasons and said theological reasons can be summed up in the phrase "I no longer believe that Christianity is the truth". The church should not change its teaching so radically to "appeal" to non believers. I also very much doubt that your average Christian cares about theology so they would not care about what words like "Polytheism" or "Monotheism" actually mean.
I cannot speak for all polytheists, but I can speak as a polytheist in saying that the idea of the Christian deity being a triple deity does not factor into my disinterest to the idea of converting.
Some Christians have argued this, but they never really gain traction and are labeled heretics and uninvited from all the cool Christianity clubs
What's interesting to me, is that some Church fathers were actually accused of heresy for trying to explain the Trinity in a way that would make sense to the followers.
I've argued before that it's likely for the average churchgoer to be a heretic and not realize.
I wouldn't be surprised. As a non-Christian who has attempted to understand the Trinity, the "That's modalism, Patrick!" video comes to mind. Someone on reddit tried to explain it to me once, and I had no clue what they were talking about.
Usually because those explanations were bad explanations that encouraged a misunderstanding, though, not because they "made sense." Modalism, for instance suggests that God is limited to only act certain ways in certain roles, and people aren't generally happy with implying that God is limited
I was more referring to Origen and his views.
I think Origen predated orthodoxy. Nicaea wasn't until the 4th century, and Origen was long dead.
He's still considered a heretic though. Just like Justin Martyr.
His views are considered unorthodox, but I do not believe that he his expressly heretical they way that, say Arius, is considered heretical. He is maybe not quite as accepted as Justin Martyr, who is a saint. Origen is somewhere in the middle.
I was told by those who follow the orthodoxy that he is a heretic, it might be different depending on the sect. I honestly don't understand how Justin Martyr was given sainthood when he believed that the Father and Son were distinct entities and that the Son was subordinate to the Father. Very different from modern Trinitarianism. It is clear henotheism.
>A big reason why people seem to not be Christian is because of the Trinity being taught as a monotheistic concept. Uhm. Source?
“If they change their fundamental belief, maybe more people will join.” You act as if they don’t actually believe in their religion.
That is, frankly, one of the lowest reasons on a list of why I'm not interested.
I mean, its a funny thing to throw at some christians in a discussion, but I really doubt there is even a single person that was unconvinced of those specific sects by the trinity.. And again, some christians. I don't think the trinity is even a concept for all the big sects, and lets not talk about all the various small and random sects that exists...
I don’t think the trinity really factored into my deconversion at all. I actually kind of liked the mystery of it.
I didn’t leave because of the trinity lol. I left because the god never answered or helped me.
I don’t know about that, however if Sophia was regarded as the Holy Spirit (A female person of the Trinity) it might be easier for some people who used to be Polytheistic, who were interested in Christianity, to adjust more easily (although I guess the Virgin Mary fits that Mother Goddess role pretty well too).
1 x 1 x 1 = 1 > the OT where we have rapists marrying their victims Jewish law requires a woman's consent for marriage, the passage you're referencing is for youngsters caught cavorting. Rape is addressed a few verses prior, and likened to murder. > Moses genociding infants and the suckling among the Amalakites To understand this you first need to understand what Amalek is and how ancient Near Eastern literature was written. Amalek is not a tribe of people like the Hittites or Assyrians, they're more conceptual than that. They are a sort of proto-antiChrist. And also Ancient Near Eastern literature was written to glorify the victor, and pre-Christian ideas of what that means seem very foreign to us. It's actually telling how tame the Bible is in this regard, especially given the character of Amalek.
>1 x 1 x 1 = 1 They are seen as being the same, yet seperate at the same time. This makes it seem as if they have same exact will, when the theology denies that. >Jewish law requires a woman's consent for marriage, the passage you're referencing is for youngsters caught cavorting. Rape is addressed a few verses prior, and likened to murder. Mostly referring to the way many Christians see it and argue for it. I have consistently seen Christians agree that it was rape and argue for why marrying a rapist is necessary. I am aware that the Jews have a different understanding of the verse. >To understand this you first need to understand what Amalek is and how ancient Near Eastern literature was written. Amalek is not a tribe of people like the Hittites or Assyrians, they're more conceptual than that. They are a sort of proto-antiChrist. >And also Ancient Near Eastern literature was written to glorify the victor, and pre-Christian ideas of what that means seem very foreign to us. It's actually telling how tame the Bible is in this regard, especially given the character of Amalek. I understand the use of metaphor, allegory, and other literary concepts. But it is simply so descriptive, that I have a hard time believing it was not originally thought of as an actual event. Couple that with the verse of Moses telling his soldiers to take the woman who have not laid with a man for themselves, and it seems even less convincing that these events were not originally thought to have had actually happened.
I support this idea!
If Christianity just admitted it was tri-theistic, it would make things less confusing (and it wouldn't invalidate the religion). However, the confusing nature of the trinity is not one of the main reasons why people are leaving Christianity, not even in the top 25 reasons. Fundamentalism, abuse, freedom of religion, access to the internet, pedo priests existing/not being punished, homophobia, and a plethora of other things are why people are leaving Christianity.
“Then the LORD rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the LORD OUT OF THE HEAVENS. Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land.” Genesis 19:24-25 NIV who is the Lord and who is the lord out of the heavens if God is only one?
"For the LORD is a great God, and a great King above all gods." ([Ps 95:3](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2095.3)). "God has taken his place in the divine council; in the midst of the gods he holds judgment." ([Ps 82:1](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2082.1)) "For who in the skies can be compared to the LORD? Who among the heavenly beings is like the LORD, a God feared in the council of the holy ones, great and terrible above all that are round about him? O LORD God of hosts, who is mighty as thou art, O LORD, with thy faithfulness round about thee?" ([Ps 89:6-8](https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ps%2089.6-8)) Also, the verse you gave comes from the OT which was directly lifted from Judaic Scriptures that are known to have never alluded to the Trinity in any way.
You didn’t answer my question. And yes I realize this is from the Old Testament and the Jewish views on God being one. I also know that the Jewish views on God being two because of the Book of Daniel. Up until Jesus showed up that is.
Well, God isn't one. I just gave you verses where Yaweh is shown as being the king of multiple Gods. That would make it hellonism. Also the Trinity is the belief of the Father, son, and holy spirit being seperate but unified at the same time, it's 1+1+1=1. Thats not a concept that can be found in the Jewish scripture.