> whereas I’ve seen pagans incorporate multiple religions into their belief systems
Oh Christians have done this all the time as well.
- Christmas: Celebrated on December 25th, it conveniently aligns with the Roman festival of Saturnalia and the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. Decorations like Christmas trees have roots in pre-Christian winter celebrations, particularly those involving the evergreen as a symbol of life amid winter’s death.
- The name "Easter" itself is derived from Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring and fertility. The timing coincides with various spring festivals celebrating rebirth and renewal. And those Easter eggs? Symbols of fertility and new life, hailing from pagan traditions.
- All Saints' Day on November 1st was established by the church to overshadow Samhain, a Celtic festival marking the end of the harvest season and the beginning of winter. The evening before, All Hallows' Eve, evolved into Halloween, keeping much of the original pagan symbolism and rituals.
- The practice of exchanging rings can be traced back to ancient Roman customs, which were later adopted by Christians to symbolize eternal love and commitment.
- Holy water used in Christian rituals resembles the water purification practices of various ancient religions, including the Roman use of lustral water.
- Images of the Madonna and Child bear a striking resemblance to earlier depictions of the Egyptian goddess Isis nursing her son Horus, and other mother-child pairs in pagan art.
- Many Christian saints’ feast days are strategically placed on or around existing pagan festivals, often to facilitate the transition from paganism to Christianity. For example, St. Brigid’s Day on February 1st coincides with the Celtic festival of Imbolc.
- Many traditional Christmas carols have origins in pagan songs sung during the winter solstice celebrations.
- The Yule log, now a Christmas tradition, has its roots in ancient Germanic paganism, where a log was burned to honor the sun during the winter solstice.
- Both of these plants were used in ancient Druidic rituals and later incorporated into Christmas celebrations as symbols of peace and joy.
And Islam is no different. Like Christianity, it has also absorbed and adapted various pre-Islamic and regional customs and traditions.
- The Kaaba in Mecca was a pre-Islamic sacred site for various Arabian tribes, who practiced pilgrimage and rituals around it long before Islam. Islam retained the Kaaba as a central element of worship and integrated the pilgrimage into its practices, while reinterpreting its significance in a monotheistic context.
- The practice of circumambulating the Kaaba during Hajj and Umrah has roots in pre-Islamic rituals. Pre-Islamic tribes performed similar acts, which were adapted and given new Islamic meanings.
- The practice of animal sacrifice during Eid al-Adha has parallels with pre-Islamic rituals where animals were sacrificed to gods. Islam recontextualized this practice to commemorate the willingness of Ibrahim (Abraham) to sacrifice his son in obedience to God.
- While fasting was a common religious practice in various pre-Islamic cultures, including Judaism and Christianity, Islam institutionalized fasting during the month of Ramadan, giving it specific rules and spiritual significance.
- Many Islamic funeral customs, such as washing the body, shrouding, and burial, have roots in pre-Islamic Arabian practices. Islam formalized and standardized these practices with additional religious context.
- The lunar calendar was already in use among pre-Islamic Arabs. Islam retained the lunar calendar, starting it from the Hijra (migration) of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina.
- Many names and titles used in Islamic tradition, such as "Abu" (father of) and "Umm" (mother of), as well as honorifics like "Sayyid" and "Sheikh," were common in pre-Islamic Arabian culture.
As a Quaker I add in bits of Zen and Advaita. As well as the local religion of the Dharawal people. It's not every denomination that is as you describe. Just the ones you mostly hear about.
We don't lmao
They're just......there. Our texts only focus on us and neighboring peoples. Nothing is said about some random tribe/nation not in close proximity to us.
Fair enough. I know that some members of certain polytheistic religions such as Hinduism just kinda say "X foreign god could be an avatar of Y" and then move on.
I think we'd just be like "Yeah they worship (insert god)" and just......not really have anything move to say about it. Not our culture, not our tribe, not our business.
Sure!
Well, first of all, I believe it to be true. That’s a huge part of it. But above that is also the community, the people, the tribe.
It’s a genuine sense of belonging. It’s hard to explain. They are not my people yet, but I look forward to the day they are. That, for reference, is after the mikvah. It’s a long process of learning. I’m also in college and working, so is going slow and steady lol
Unironically one thing JWs and Jews tend to share a lot in my experience is being some of the most welcoming communities towards outsiders. I'd never convert simply because no conversion on my end would be sincere on a religious level to either faith but if I had to pick a religious community to live in... An Orthodox Jewish community is quite high on the list, and in no small part due to the fact so many of the Jews I know are really passionate and kind with a clear love of knowledge and wanting to do good.
Ah, then yeah, if a Jew worships another god, they're considered an apostate and are barred from partaking in our community unless they return to the fold.
Btw I have heard that worshiping s other “ god like Allah doesn’t count as worshiping another god and it’s allowed. Is that right? If yes what other gods are counted as the same god?
I've heard that said too, although to me that has always seemed a little out of nowhere. The word "god" has a double meaning. If someone says "Zeus is a Greek god," they don't necessarily mean "I believe in the divinity of Zeus."
Also, the word translated as "before" could also be translated as "in front of," like how Shakespeare wrote "Is this a dagger which I see before me?"
This doesn’t work in Hebrew. The second commandment (we count them differently) uses a phrase that literally means “On my face” or “in my presence” and is used elsewhere to the Torah to mean that something occurred within the lifetime of someone.
This is an example of how translating texts always changes their meaning to some degree.
There are different definitions of idol worship. For example, I wouldn't consider Hindus idol worshipers even though they literally use idols as part of their worship.
I think the real question is, are you using your religion/spirituality as a way to connect with Ultimate Truth, the Divine Reality, something greater than ourselves? Or are you using it as a means to get what you want?
Islam can't even tolerate Islam. Seriously how many attacks have their been in the past ten years alone that boil down to "Group A disagrees with Group B and decided the correct behavior is to kill people in the other group?"
I think most of the world would rather Islam take the mix and match approach than one that leads to people being killed because "I believe my exact interpretation is perfect, and yours is different and mine also says to kill people that disagree about mine being perfect."
Yup... The sad reality is that the devotion is admirable... But the stance of mine is perfect and anyone disagreeing with mine should be killed is where it becomes a problem... And the sad reality is that the religion IS responsible for a large part of why Muslims are the #1 victims of Muslims in this regard. Meanwhile those that advocate being less extreme get accused of not being real Muslims...by people that don't realize the harm caused by such purity wars.
In this case, those people aren't following the rules set forth in Islam. Islam, the religion, isn't the problem it's the people. Just because there are bad Muslims, doesn't mean the majority are.
The religion at the end of the day is partly to blame.
What is the punishment for being a heretic or apostate? Death. The Sunni Shia conflict leads to extremism disproportionately compared to other religions over disagreements in part because both run into the same problems they can't both be right over the disagreements, they both insist theirs is perfect, they both acknowledge the punishment for heresy, that the rules established are not to be changed, etc. The reality is if the religion as intended causes no such issues, but in practice several teachings are prone to being understood as together justifying things such as a fatwa on other Muslims... There is a problem with the religion. People coming to sincerely believe that a fatwa against other Muslims is at all acceptable, is a failure of the religion. The same way Christians fighting centuries ago was a failure of the religion.
The simple reality is in both cases, who they believe to be the last prophet would actually be chastising BOTH sides... But also could have been avoided with relatively little actual change to the scripture that exists now from them when they were alive to clarify things unambiguously in that regard. It's a failure to communicate that does lie at the foot of the religion even if the majority understand it and isn't intended how a large number of people relative to the severity misunderstand it.
Does not the perspective of Islam seeing itself being "true and perfect", or the last religion from the one true God (TM) make Islam arrogant? And less likely to think that it can learn from other religions and perspectives too?
If they believe Islam is straight from Allah, why would it be arrogant to believe that their religion’s beliefs matter more than man-made or corrupted religions. This is the view of Islam, it’s not arrogance so much as it is logical. Why should they learn from “wrong” religions. It’s a belief Muslims have about their religion, that it’s the complete truth.
Yeah that's kind of a shame. I know I've been told that you can profit from reading other religious texts, but I've never been directly encouraged to. I've been curious to read the Quran though but haven't gotten around to it.
My church worships Jesus Christ, and I believe we're considered Christians. I think that depends on what you consider Christian ( like we don't believe the Nicene creed)
From the Renaissance to the early 20th century references to classical religion were not something many people were at all ashamed of, historically many Christians have been keen to learn from Judaism.
Eh, it’s hard to know what exactly would change. In many ways we are very normal. Normal job, school, etc.
You would go to church every week. Keep specific commandments. And overall seek a wholesome good life, full of communion and connection with God.
Bahai Faith is unique in how it views many religions as being connected to each other or inspired by one God over many millennia. But doesn't its perspective still favor the large prophetic religions that it recognizes (e.g. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc) and view them as better or more wise than, say, animistic religions, Pagan traditions, Taoism, Sikhism, and Mormonism?
I also get the impression that Bahai Faith sees itself as the most current and relevant religion from God to the world, so it may want to supplant and replace older religions with its own teachings and institutions...?
Baha'i Faith teaches that all religions that have been sent by God contain truth. Religious truth is not absolute because humanity cannot fathom absolute truth. Only God knows the absolute truth. God gives each messenger the appropriate religious teachings for humanity that suit that society at that time. So there is still a lot to learn from all religions sent by God. Yes, we Baha'is believe that the teachings of Baha'u'llah contain the most relevant teachings for today, but there is still value in the religions of the past.
Given the number of Islamic mystic currents who claimed Muhammad and Ali are Vishnu, I am pretty sure there have been such rooms at some point
Abu Yaqub Al Sijistani said « the real religion shares something with every false religion, including idol worshippers »
The overlap between hindus and buddhists is like the overlap between Christians and Jews.
Buddhism takes a number of Hindu preconceptions, reinvents some of them, rejects others and effectively makes it's own cosmology out of what's left behind.
There is a big space between "you cannot learn about or respect any other religion" and "actively incorporating other religious traditions in your own" Judaism stance somewhere in that space.
If one of the Abrahamic religions were indeed the truth, then wouldn’t this completely make sense? If a religion claims to be the true religion, then to that religion all other religions are void, unless that specific religion incorporates other religions into it of course.
The Yazidi faith was heavily influenced by Islam, although that was more of an oppressive necessity kind of thing (maybe perhaps, I don’t know much about the Yazidi faith other than its Abrahamic, they’re 100% closed to converts because it’s an ethnoreligion, and they’re primarily found in places like Syria, nothern Iraq, parts of Iran, and surrounding areas)
> whereas I’ve seen pagans incorporate multiple religions into their belief systems Oh Christians have done this all the time as well. - Christmas: Celebrated on December 25th, it conveniently aligns with the Roman festival of Saturnalia and the pagan celebration of the winter solstice. Decorations like Christmas trees have roots in pre-Christian winter celebrations, particularly those involving the evergreen as a symbol of life amid winter’s death. - The name "Easter" itself is derived from Eostre, the Anglo-Saxon goddess of spring and fertility. The timing coincides with various spring festivals celebrating rebirth and renewal. And those Easter eggs? Symbols of fertility and new life, hailing from pagan traditions. - All Saints' Day on November 1st was established by the church to overshadow Samhain, a Celtic festival marking the end of the harvest season and the beginning of winter. The evening before, All Hallows' Eve, evolved into Halloween, keeping much of the original pagan symbolism and rituals. - The practice of exchanging rings can be traced back to ancient Roman customs, which were later adopted by Christians to symbolize eternal love and commitment. - Holy water used in Christian rituals resembles the water purification practices of various ancient religions, including the Roman use of lustral water. - Images of the Madonna and Child bear a striking resemblance to earlier depictions of the Egyptian goddess Isis nursing her son Horus, and other mother-child pairs in pagan art. - Many Christian saints’ feast days are strategically placed on or around existing pagan festivals, often to facilitate the transition from paganism to Christianity. For example, St. Brigid’s Day on February 1st coincides with the Celtic festival of Imbolc. - Many traditional Christmas carols have origins in pagan songs sung during the winter solstice celebrations. - The Yule log, now a Christmas tradition, has its roots in ancient Germanic paganism, where a log was burned to honor the sun during the winter solstice. - Both of these plants were used in ancient Druidic rituals and later incorporated into Christmas celebrations as symbols of peace and joy. And Islam is no different. Like Christianity, it has also absorbed and adapted various pre-Islamic and regional customs and traditions. - The Kaaba in Mecca was a pre-Islamic sacred site for various Arabian tribes, who practiced pilgrimage and rituals around it long before Islam. Islam retained the Kaaba as a central element of worship and integrated the pilgrimage into its practices, while reinterpreting its significance in a monotheistic context. - The practice of circumambulating the Kaaba during Hajj and Umrah has roots in pre-Islamic rituals. Pre-Islamic tribes performed similar acts, which were adapted and given new Islamic meanings. - The practice of animal sacrifice during Eid al-Adha has parallels with pre-Islamic rituals where animals were sacrificed to gods. Islam recontextualized this practice to commemorate the willingness of Ibrahim (Abraham) to sacrifice his son in obedience to God. - While fasting was a common religious practice in various pre-Islamic cultures, including Judaism and Christianity, Islam institutionalized fasting during the month of Ramadan, giving it specific rules and spiritual significance. - Many Islamic funeral customs, such as washing the body, shrouding, and burial, have roots in pre-Islamic Arabian practices. Islam formalized and standardized these practices with additional religious context. - The lunar calendar was already in use among pre-Islamic Arabs. Islam retained the lunar calendar, starting it from the Hijra (migration) of Muhammad from Mecca to Medina. - Many names and titles used in Islamic tradition, such as "Abu" (father of) and "Umm" (mother of), as well as honorifics like "Sayyid" and "Sheikh," were common in pre-Islamic Arabian culture.
As a Quaker I add in bits of Zen and Advaita. As well as the local religion of the Dharawal people. It's not every denomination that is as you describe. Just the ones you mostly hear about.
In Christianity and Islam, yeah
How do Jewish people typically view gods of other religions?
We don't lmao They're just......there. Our texts only focus on us and neighboring peoples. Nothing is said about some random tribe/nation not in close proximity to us.
Fair enough. I know that some members of certain polytheistic religions such as Hinduism just kinda say "X foreign god could be an avatar of Y" and then move on.
I think we'd just be like "Yeah they worship (insert god)" and just......not really have anything move to say about it. Not our culture, not our tribe, not our business.
Don’t you condemn worship of other gods as idol worship?
For Jews, yes. I couldn't care less about who and what gentiles worship.
Yeah, it’s a pretty big jump in expectations for Jews. 613 rules for Jewish people. 7 for non lol
Can I ask, what made you decide to convert to Judaism?
Sure! Well, first of all, I believe it to be true. That’s a huge part of it. But above that is also the community, the people, the tribe. It’s a genuine sense of belonging. It’s hard to explain. They are not my people yet, but I look forward to the day they are. That, for reference, is after the mikvah. It’s a long process of learning. I’m also in college and working, so is going slow and steady lol
Unironically one thing JWs and Jews tend to share a lot in my experience is being some of the most welcoming communities towards outsiders. I'd never convert simply because no conversion on my end would be sincere on a religious level to either faith but if I had to pick a religious community to live in... An Orthodox Jewish community is quite high on the list, and in no small part due to the fact so many of the Jews I know are really passionate and kind with a clear love of knowledge and wanting to do good.
I guess op was talking about religious laws for their members.
Ah, then yeah, if a Jew worships another god, they're considered an apostate and are barred from partaking in our community unless they return to the fold.
Btw I have heard that worshiping s other “ god like Allah doesn’t count as worshiping another god and it’s allowed. Is that right? If yes what other gods are counted as the same god?
Allah isn't another god. It's just the Arabic word for god.
I meant the god of Islam/ of the Muslims.
I’ve heard some say that the first commandment doesn’t necessarily mean that there aren’t any other gods, only that you should put Yahweh before them
I've heard that said too, although to me that has always seemed a little out of nowhere. The word "god" has a double meaning. If someone says "Zeus is a Greek god," they don't necessarily mean "I believe in the divinity of Zeus." Also, the word translated as "before" could also be translated as "in front of," like how Shakespeare wrote "Is this a dagger which I see before me?"
It’s also used elsewhere to say mean “in the lifetime of” or “in the presence of”. There’s debate between the two.
This doesn’t work in Hebrew. The second commandment (we count them differently) uses a phrase that literally means “On my face” or “in my presence” and is used elsewhere to the Torah to mean that something occurred within the lifetime of someone. This is an example of how translating texts always changes their meaning to some degree.
Out of all the people that have antagonized my polytheistic religion when it's been brought up, not a single one of them has been Jewish.
There are different definitions of idol worship. For example, I wouldn't consider Hindus idol worshipers even though they literally use idols as part of their worship. I think the real question is, are you using your religion/spirituality as a way to connect with Ultimate Truth, the Divine Reality, something greater than ourselves? Or are you using it as a means to get what you want?
That’s right, the strictest sects and religions have strictest definitions. Personally I kinda agree with you, with some differences.
[удалено]
Yes, it's been an ever evolving process since we first coalesced as a unique group. The same can be said for every other people on this planet.
Islam is viewed as the perfect and true religion by Muslims, it would be strange for us to be mixing and matching.
Islam can't even tolerate Islam. Seriously how many attacks have their been in the past ten years alone that boil down to "Group A disagrees with Group B and decided the correct behavior is to kill people in the other group?" I think most of the world would rather Islam take the mix and match approach than one that leads to people being killed because "I believe my exact interpretation is perfect, and yours is different and mine also says to kill people that disagree about mine being perfect."
Yep -- that level of intolerance mixed with fanaticism can only lead to hatred and violence between sects.
Yup... The sad reality is that the devotion is admirable... But the stance of mine is perfect and anyone disagreeing with mine should be killed is where it becomes a problem... And the sad reality is that the religion IS responsible for a large part of why Muslims are the #1 victims of Muslims in this regard. Meanwhile those that advocate being less extreme get accused of not being real Muslims...by people that don't realize the harm caused by such purity wars.
In this case, those people aren't following the rules set forth in Islam. Islam, the religion, isn't the problem it's the people. Just because there are bad Muslims, doesn't mean the majority are.
The religion at the end of the day is partly to blame. What is the punishment for being a heretic or apostate? Death. The Sunni Shia conflict leads to extremism disproportionately compared to other religions over disagreements in part because both run into the same problems they can't both be right over the disagreements, they both insist theirs is perfect, they both acknowledge the punishment for heresy, that the rules established are not to be changed, etc. The reality is if the religion as intended causes no such issues, but in practice several teachings are prone to being understood as together justifying things such as a fatwa on other Muslims... There is a problem with the religion. People coming to sincerely believe that a fatwa against other Muslims is at all acceptable, is a failure of the religion. The same way Christians fighting centuries ago was a failure of the religion. The simple reality is in both cases, who they believe to be the last prophet would actually be chastising BOTH sides... But also could have been avoided with relatively little actual change to the scripture that exists now from them when they were alive to clarify things unambiguously in that regard. It's a failure to communicate that does lie at the foot of the religion even if the majority understand it and isn't intended how a large number of people relative to the severity misunderstand it.
Does not the perspective of Islam seeing itself being "true and perfect", or the last religion from the one true God (TM) make Islam arrogant? And less likely to think that it can learn from other religions and perspectives too?
If they believe Islam is straight from Allah, why would it be arrogant to believe that their religion’s beliefs matter more than man-made or corrupted religions. This is the view of Islam, it’s not arrogance so much as it is logical. Why should they learn from “wrong” religions. It’s a belief Muslims have about their religion, that it’s the complete truth.
Agreed.
Ok, but you can still be open minded to other religions without embracing them or practicing them.
You should be open minded as in not being a horrible person to them of course.
kinda funny to hear that from a shia though a lot of sunnis would see you as kafir
Ok? That doesn’t really change anything. It’s a minority of Sunnis that would believe that regardless.
Yeah that's kind of a shame. I know I've been told that you can profit from reading other religious texts, but I've never been directly encouraged to. I've been curious to read the Quran though but haven't gotten around to it. My church worships Jesus Christ, and I believe we're considered Christians. I think that depends on what you consider Christian ( like we don't believe the Nicene creed)
From the Renaissance to the early 20th century references to classical religion were not something many people were at all ashamed of, historically many Christians have been keen to learn from Judaism.
I don’t know. My faith has a common saying: “Bring any good that you have, and see if we can’t add onto it”
[удалено]
4th time in a month? That surprises me
[удалено]
Like you wouldn’t know what you would be in for if you decided to join?
[удалено]
Eh, it’s hard to know what exactly would change. In many ways we are very normal. Normal job, school, etc. You would go to church every week. Keep specific commandments. And overall seek a wholesome good life, full of communion and connection with God.
https://youtu.be/OKkLV1zE8M0?si=x2CP7orRZV6wBa1I
The Baha’i Faith is an Abrahamic religion and I don’t think your assertion applies to the Baha’i Faith.
Bahai Faith is unique in how it views many religions as being connected to each other or inspired by one God over many millennia. But doesn't its perspective still favor the large prophetic religions that it recognizes (e.g. Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, etc) and view them as better or more wise than, say, animistic religions, Pagan traditions, Taoism, Sikhism, and Mormonism? I also get the impression that Bahai Faith sees itself as the most current and relevant religion from God to the world, so it may want to supplant and replace older religions with its own teachings and institutions...?
Baha'i Faith teaches that all religions that have been sent by God contain truth. Religious truth is not absolute because humanity cannot fathom absolute truth. Only God knows the absolute truth. God gives each messenger the appropriate religious teachings for humanity that suit that society at that time. So there is still a lot to learn from all religions sent by God. Yes, we Baha'is believe that the teachings of Baha'u'llah contain the most relevant teachings for today, but there is still value in the religions of the past.
Given the number of Islamic mystic currents who claimed Muhammad and Ali are Vishnu, I am pretty sure there have been such rooms at some point Abu Yaqub Al Sijistani said « the real religion shares something with every false religion, including idol worshippers »
Exactly. It’s certainly not a “mainstream” approach, but it’s certainly been done in a wide variety of ways through history.
The overlap between hindus and buddhists is like the overlap between Christians and Jews. Buddhism takes a number of Hindu preconceptions, reinvents some of them, rejects others and effectively makes it's own cosmology out of what's left behind.
There is a big space between "you cannot learn about or respect any other religion" and "actively incorporating other religious traditions in your own" Judaism stance somewhere in that space.
If one of the Abrahamic religions were indeed the truth, then wouldn’t this completely make sense? If a religion claims to be the true religion, then to that religion all other religions are void, unless that specific religion incorporates other religions into it of course.
The Yazidi faith was heavily influenced by Islam, although that was more of an oppressive necessity kind of thing (maybe perhaps, I don’t know much about the Yazidi faith other than its Abrahamic, they’re 100% closed to converts because it’s an ethnoreligion, and they’re primarily found in places like Syria, nothern Iraq, parts of Iran, and surrounding areas)