Protesting is all well and good as a first amendment right. Where many protesters go wrong is the lack of organizing and strategy after the fact. Channel the anger into political action and advocacy to move the needle. Especially now when our attention is diverted in so many different directions. Otherwise, it’s viewed as a public nuisance that will eventually fizzle out.
There are very direct actions being requested of the universities at these protests though. This never ending demand for protesters to organize perfectly is exhausting and distracting.
I’m beginning to think people engage with it so much because it’s easier than talking about the point of the protest.
Youre right but that was a domestic issue being protested. They were protesting issues that were happening in their own country, state, and hometown. If people in another hemisphere were protesting US civil rights during this time, do you thing it would have done anything at all?
A big part of defeating Apartheid in South Africa was intense, international pressure from abroad. This happened in the form of protests, but also economic sanctions.
You seem to be missing the part about us funding that genocide, right here, locally. We sent them 26 billion last week and two days later were like “hey guys, you really need to explain what’s going on with those mass graves” as if we don’t have the intelligence to already have that answer. The people who voted on that live right here so why shouldn’t the largest disruptions be right here?
Because a protest has to get people’s attention, hence why you have to inconvenience people to get their attention. If they were not inconveniencing you, you probably wouldn’t have made this post, which is actually bringing more attention to the cause.
As long as the protest is nonviolent, they can do whatever they want as long as the protestors can live with the consequences.
Blocking someone’s access to free travel is not nonviolent. If you block traffic and I can’t move , it is tantamount to kidnapping. I’ve seen people draw kidnapping charges in a domestic dispute for as little as holding a door closed and refusing to let the person exit. If I am trapped, even in a public space, and blocked by traffic by protesters, how is that in any way different. It should have the same same felony kidnapping consequences
I guess this idiot poster doesn't understand we, the people, are supposed to be controlling our government and "be a part of it."" Thank you for demonstrating the big fucking problem ruining our nation (and why protesters feel compelled to inconvenience others in times of crisis). Average assholes are not paying attention to what our government is doing in our names and with the resources we provide to it-on every level, federal and local. Fuck you apathetic American. You get the pile of shit you got coming to you.
guess what a small minority of fucktards don't get to dictate a countries foreign policy. That is the opposite of democracy. We know exactly what our government is doing. wait....do you think America was this uninhabited country that the pilgrims found empty? the land under YOUR feet is stolen. the fuck I care about Palestianians who cheered in the streets after 9/11.
I did a ton of activism and protesting in my younger days and for some people I think part of the appeal is an idea of being righteous and part of a world changing revolution, they think their means are justified by the ends. A lot of the activism playbook comes from far left Marxist movements. I'm pretty liberal myself but am at the point where I agree that there's a point where it becomes counterproductive and just pisses people off.
Karl Marx didn't do direct actionism, I actually don't think he would even particularly like it. Marx has nothing to do with what 99 percent of people in America think has to do with Marx.
Because most people have empathy and are open to learning about a certain cause when they hear about it. Maybe do some research on whats going on in Gaza right now and you'll understand why its such a pressing issue.
You are assuming anyone who may have researched it must absolutely come to your same conclusions. Genocide is a big word, it might be good if you know what it means
you might need some education yourself. Jews have been ethnically cleansed by the muslim world for the last 80 years. In Israel proper, not accounting for the west bank or gaza, but israel itself has a 18% muslim population.
find me a muslim majority country that has a 18% jewish population. You can't. Ok , find me a muslim majority country that has even half that, a 9% jewish population. You can't. How about half that another time. A muslim majority country with a 4% jewish population. You can't.
Muslim countries have persecuted Jews so much that there is no longer any Jewish communities of any size in any Muslim country.
Did you know more Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Palestianians had to flee from Israel.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world)
in 1950 there were 140,000 jews in iraq. currently there are less than 10. This numbers are similiar all across the arab penisula. That was ethnic cleansing.
When in my comment did I say that the history that you just presented wasn't true? I was just trying to answer OPs question of why people are protesting. Also, just because Jews have been ethnically cleansed in the past, doesn't mean that the current ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is justified.
Because historically it does increase support for a cause over the long term, if done at a wide scale.
It makes distant issues more direct and forces people into a dialog about the issue, which slowly builds a critical mass of supporters and more people become sympathetic towards the protestors positions on the issue and stop having a tantrum for causing traffic or otherwise mildly inconvenienced.
The Gaza protests are actually a great example of that in action because it is plainly obvious to anyone who is cognizant of international affairs how the public attitude towards Isreal has shifted in recent years. By forcing the issues to be upfront and visible to the public, it makes perceived injustices harder to ignore.
Personally I just find it weird for people to openly support kidnappers and murderers. And for the record, I’m Asian I don’t feel one way or another for either side for the most part.
But in all seriousness if Hamas did that to Israel, the group of people who famously coined the phrase ‘an eye for an eye’. Of course they’re going to retaliate and try to beat the pulp out of you. You killed 1200 of their people and kidnapped their innocent, don’t be surprised if they’re going to try to inflict biblical consequences on you.
And they can say what they want for their justification for their horrendous acts but at the end of the day, you went to a rave and you massacred people who were just trying to party. You kidnapped innocent people and you took the lives of many more innocent people.
Putting that aside, you can look at the company both sides keep. On one hand there’s Israel who has allies of the US and on the other hand you have Palestinians who have allies in Iran, Hezbollah, Houthi etc.
Add to the fact that so many of Palestinians neighboring Muslims countries refuse to take their refugees into their homeland because they know what type of trouble they bring, the world seems pretty clear on this.
Nobody wants innocent people dying or massacred but the last people who should be complaining about it, ironically were also the same people who triggered this and there’s literal footage of them doing exactly what they claim is being done to them.
Again, I just find it completely weird that Americans support the Palestinians even after they witnessed what was done by them.
The biggest issue I have with this is how easily violent extremist organizations that have a well known desire of commiting genocide against the entire west, were able to influence and indoctrinate our youth to their cause using social media. Nobody gave a shit about brown people dying until jews were doing the killing, completely ignoring the tens of thousands of people that have died in Yemen due to civil war, and conflicts in Sudan and Ethiopia/Tigray.
Ignorant kids. It's trendy to protest. Most of these fools have no idea what Intifada, or "from the river to the sea..," even means or what they're protesting.
I heard one protestor that was convinced that all the Jewish people in Israel are from Europe. Dude... Where do you think all the Jewish people from turkey??? Iraq! Or Egypt went? To France?
I would gladly donate to a go fund-me to have these lgbtq and feminists go on a long vacation to some of these muslim countries that are propping up these protests.
and just an FYI , Israel has the biggest gay pride parade than anyother country in the middle east or asia.
but to be fair some of these Islamic countries do celebrate pride month, just in a different way, by throwing gay folks off the top of tall buildings.
Im not trying to be a boomer when I say the youths are getting brainwashed on TikTok. Same stuff that happened to boomers with qanon during lockdowns that resulted in all the anti vaccine protests and people showing up in Dallas to await the return of JFK Jr.
> Nobody gave a shit about brown people dying until jews were doing the killing
I take it that you weren’t around for the Iraq war protests? US has a direct hand in Palestinians being murdered, which is what people are protesting. Same cannot be said about the other conflicts you listed.
You are either intentionally lying, just ignorant, or both. The free palestine movement has been going on for literal years. Just because you weren’t watching, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. People want other people to stop being killed, none of that has to involve “violent extremist” as you like to call them. You can advocate for human life, without wanting to kill others. How is that hard to understand??
Lol there are ppl wearing intifada shirts, it's beyond the free Palestine movement, you're now parroting terrorist propaganda.
I've sat in security briefings where terrorist groups have been talking in back channels where or how they can create mass casualties during these protests.
If that were true, the free Palestine movement would include free Palestine from hamas too. But since we never see that and many times see support hamas, you statements are incorrect
When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, there was an understanding that we were going to do what we had to do to make them stop. Most Americans feel the same way about Gaza. If you don’t believe me walk up and down the halls of the Congressional office buildings and count how many “We Stand With Israel” signs you see.
Per capita, for Israelis, Oct 7 was a larger attack than 9/11 was on the USA. Al-Qaeda has been effectively neutralized. So must Hamas. We can't (and shouldn't) expect Israel to stop short of eliminating the terrorists. War is tragic, and it's tragic that Hamas uses human shields which leads to the death of innocents. But Hamas started this, and they perpetuate it. They could end it tomorrow if they were to surrender and return the hostages.
Al-Qaeda has been neutralized? Interesting take .. we fought a war and sent tons of money and training so we could have Iraq and Al-Qaeda like Iran has the Houthi.
what people assume wrongly is that the people of Israel are split on this war and if only Netanyahu was not in power the people of israel would want a cease fire.
that is so far from the truth , the vast majority of Israelis want Hamas destroyed.
Yeah I agree. The stated goal of the Hamas is to kill all the Jews. Like how do you support that group? Yes Isreal is doing things that aren't good, but at the same time it's war right? You can't declare war and then be upset your enemies are going to restrict you getting aid. If the choice is my people or your people, and you attacked me, it's not a choice.
I don't think either side are good guys with no faults but I don't see how you support Hamas in this.
Overall, I agree with your comment, but I think there is a difference in supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Unfortunately, the current protests appear to be mixed on that with some actively supporting Hamas.
As I understand it, Hamas was elected some 20 years ago and then no more elections have happened. So, yes, technically Hamas has had support by at least some Palestinians who are still alive, but if the numbers are anywhere close to accurate for the amount (and ages) of those killed by Israel in the last 7 months, most of them had nothing to do with electing Hamas.
You’re correct there hasn’t been election for close to 20 years (Hamas also killed and threw out the Palestinian Authority in a bloody week long fight in 2007) however October 7th was very popular amongst Palestinians in Palestine (around 75 percent approved). That doesn’t justify killing civilians of course but they certainly seem behind Hamas’ actions.
some of these college students don't see Hamas as terrorists but as legitimate resistance to occupiers, and their actions such as the indiscriminate killing and kidnapping of the Israeli population as legitimate resistance. they are wrong, but that is their belief.
Thank you for this. As a generally anti-war but still Jewish person, I don’t understand how this isn’t the most rational, common view point. We can dislike war and civilian casualties and still acknowledge that Hamas is an evil terrror org that wants as much civilan causality as possible, including the death of their own people.
Thank you. I’m an Iranian and have been screaming this at the top of my lungs. If your “cause” is aligned with the Islamic Republic regime in Iran’s interests, it’s time to take a step back and reevaluate your life choices. These traitors kill women on the street for not covering their hair yet they are concerned with “human rights” in Palestine? Fuck alllllllllll the way off. It’s frustrating that people in western societies who have all the freedom in the world are falling for the propaganda of oppressive fascist governments.
You’re talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict as though it was started by the Oct 7 festival attack. The history of the conflict goes way further back. The vast majority of people weighing in on the issue oppose atrocities from both sides and just want everyone to stop killing innocent civilians. It’s really not that complicated if you tune out all the bad-faith arguments calling opponents “supporters of genocide”
>Israel, the group of people who famously coined the phrase ‘an eye for an eye’.
Not making an argument against your whole point at all, but for the history buffs out there: No, this phrase comes from Hamarabi's Code, one of the oldest "documents" (it was originally written in stone) containing standardized and codified laws in human history and also the earliest known example of a concept we now call "innocent until proven guilty." Hamarabi was a Mesopotamian King sometime around the 1600's B.C. before the abrahamic religions existed. The impact of this code is so significant that we still use translated phrases going on 3500 years later.
You can just search my post history because I’m not going to rehash this again, but basically even though killing 1400 people is bad it does not justify causing a humanitarian crisis for 2 million people and killing tens of thousands of others to achieve vague and ill defined war goals with rules of engagement that have an outsized amount of dead civilians when historically over this conflict Israelis have inflicted 20 casualties for every 1 Israeli causality caused by Hamas.
Disproportionate reactions like this is how we messed up in Afghanistan and wasted 20 years and countless resources for no tangible gain. Israel is going to do the same here and make a new generation of recruits who won’t care why Isreal blew up their home and killed their family, just that they did will be more willing to fight Isreal in 10 years.
Tell me what the body count in the conflict was prior to 7 Oct.
Also, again: that is not an excuse for the tens of thousands of civilians killed and 2 million displaced. That does not give Isreal the moral justification to kill civilians in to expedite their campaign’s objectives.
War is hell. Remember Dresden? Tokyo fire bombing? All done to try to end the conflict. Until Hamas is eradicated Israel needs to keep up their campaign.
Two things can be objectionable.
They can have an opinion of Isreal’s response and also want hostages to be free.
As Isreal is the greater power in this conflict that our government supports…it makes sense why they are targeted with protests. They are more susceptible to protests than Hamas is, at least.
I have not heard of the free Palestine crowd calling for the release of the hostages.
Not sure if the protesters are trying to gaslight people, or are they are truly ignorant with respect to how they are representing their cause.
Bottom line is the protesters aren’t condemning Hamas, just the Israeli government. Not a good look, full stop.
Do you need people to virch their disagreement with a terrorist organization?
Between Isreal and Hamas:
- which has diplomatic relations with western nations?
- which receives western taxpayer funds?
- which receives military support (arms, training, R+D, intel)?
- which has lobbyists?
- which runs advertising campaigns to justify their actions?
Hamas is immune to these sorts protests because they fundamentally dont have any way to have pressure exerted on them from social movements, other than giving Isreal more arms and military support - which runs counter to objection of how Isreal is prosecuting its war goal.
Again, people can object to both Hamas and Israeli tactics. Chastising one is not supporting the other.
It's ignorance mixed into our current special brand of privileged over-educated anarcho-socialism built on racial/identity determinism mixed with moral relativism.
They could never condemn Hamas. In the "woke" paradigm, the weaker party is always the oppressed and the oppressed is always right. Actions mean nothing, only the relative victimhood of either side matters. As determined by the intersectional analysis of their respective identities. There is no good or evil. Morality is a function of the victimhood Olympics.
Don’t start shit and you won’t have to worry about a manmade humanitarian crisis you initiated.
Again, why do you people lack so much common sense? It’s just astounding to me.
Disproportionate reaction? You can’t massacre people and then when they come back to obliterate you, you’re really going to stand there and claim that they’re not fighting fair and their response wasn’t proportional?
This is the point where you’re going to attempt to apply reason and common sense? And make claims of brutality and not being humane?
Sorry bud, but your response is just reiterating my original point.
It’s really disappointing how little common sense some of you display in your warped perspective.
See that right there is the problem - “you are responsible for me bombing you and causing a humanitarian crisis” is not an ethically justifiable position.
Having the diplomatic and warfare equivalent of a tantrum and throwing all your toys at someone who pushed back at you is not something that can be handwaved away.
35k people have died because of the munitions Israel has fired. If 1400 Israelis killed justified this response, what would Israel be doing if Hamas killed 35k Israelis? Hamas has caused about 5k Israeli causalities since the early 2000s. I cannot accept the victim blaming of “Hamas made us destroy half of Gaza, 35k people, displaced nearly 2 million people who are at risk of starvation” I cannot trust Isreal to make a rational, level headed response at this point. If they are going to wage their conflict for bloodlust and revenge, then we as American taxpayers shouldn’t be funding that. Let’s not even go into their Jericho stockpile and what they can do if they feel at risk.
Sorry but that just doesn’t balance out to me on an ethical level.
This kind of narrative pretty much pretends Hamas doesn't exist and hasn't done anything. There is video and other evidence that shows that Hamas has also been responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza. And at least 9,000-10,000 of the 35,000 dead were Hamas fighters per independent assessments. But instead the narrative is that Hamas doesn't exist at all and that Israel is unilaterally just firing at women and children when the reality is that there are Hamas fighters on the other side who are shooting back, who are ambushing IDF and blowing up buildings as well, catching civilians in the crossfire and using civilians as human shields. "Hamas only inflicted 5k casualties" also ignores the fact that every year for the last several years Hamas has fired THOUSANDS of rockets at Israel, which would have killed countless hundreds of people were it not for interceptions by the Iron Dome system. Those Hamas rockets are not trivial - when one misfired and hit Al-Ahli hospital the Gaza health ministry and media immediately claimed it was deliberately targeted by an Israeli JDAM, completely flattened the hospital and killed 400 people. But then the evidence surfaced that it was in fact a Hamas rocket. Dozens and dozens more of those Hamas rockets going off course or misfiring have caused similar destruction across Gaza yet all of that gets swept under the rug in the name of falsely making this a completely one-sided narrative of Israel Bad and Palestine Good. Sorry but the reality is that BOTH sides have committed great atrocities and both sides have been directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands. But the big difference is that Hamas could end this tomorrow, by standing down and returning the hostages. Yet they refuse to do so. Meanwhile, if Israel stands down, what then? Hamas hasn't agreed to the court order that they unconditionally release all hostages, and they refuse to include the constant rocket barrages in any ceasefire deal. Hamas is also not acting in good faith and it is they who are prolonging the suffering of Palestinians. They need to go.
Yes - both sides have done atrocious things in this conflict. Nobody is the good guy. My objection to how Isreal is conducting its campaign is not an endorsement of Hamas or its tactics.
Even discounting the 10k using 25k as our number, that’s still 2 civilians killed for every combatant killed.
Iron dome is a good thing and one of the best military inventions of the century. The fact that is is so effect and largely countered the rocket threat (and decreased the munitions being launched) means it’s doing its job. I’m not sure how you’re trying to spin its effectiveness as something that shows they need to go to war over.
Like if it’s so effective - which it is - why kill 25k civilians and cause 2m more to be displaced and face starvation? Even just with cold economics, it must be cheaper to maintain and improve iron dome than whatever this conflict is costing them.
2 civilians killed per one combatant while fighting a war solely in an urban environment, while your enemy hides in tunnels and uses civilian infrastructure for bases and human shields is extremely low and no where close to genocide. Go look up civilian casualty rates for other urban war campaigns in literally any other war and it is higher.
Ethics don’t apply to murderers and kidnappers.
If they were ethical to begin with, they wouldn’t be massacring people and initiating this conflict causing others to respond and inflict severe pain on them and their people.
The problem as it appears to many people is that you want to apply to concept of ethics to one side but not the other.
I’m just saying, if you act like a savage, don’t complain and act shocked and surprised when the other side reacts in an even more savage manner.
You started this remember? And the language you chose to use was violence, so they will speak to you accordingly, in your preferred language.
You using numbers just indicates which side is losing and which side is winning, nothing more.
You can’t complain about being shot 8 times after you shot them once unprovoked. That’s not how gun battles work.
Most of Gaza’s citizens were not involved in 7 oct. I have no problem with going after the people involved, but all the evidence and facts I have seen have led me to disagree with the Israeli prosecution of their campaign. I cannot justify the causalities against the outcomes and their vague war goals and reluctance to articulate any sort of transitional government plan.
and the laws of war and counterterrorism actions absolutely do apply to them as well. Israel is a signatory of many international treaties that require it to act in certain ways in conflict against nation states and non-government actors, even if those groups are not signatories.
Israel is responsible for the people it chooses to kill when engaging its targets. Civilian causalities are inevitable, but I am not convinced Israel is actively concerned with the amount it is causing. I believe Isreal thinks it has the right to spend Palestinian civilian lives to prosecute its war and is doing so in a way it would not if Hamas agents were in Israeli cities.
Maybe Palestine’s allies should let the civilians into their countries as refugees then. For some reason they won’t, and would rather Hamas continue to use them as human shields. Hard to put the sole blame on Israel who is at war with Hamas for civilian deaths in Gaza while the only help offered by their allies is TikTok/Telegram propaganda, social media bots, and more shoddy rockets that kill more of their own civilians than they do Israelis.
Maybe forced mass deportation is a crime against humanity and hanging our hat on appeasement is not the best option. That’s still leaves that population on a border with Isreal and it’s the same problem.
Says you, thousands of miles away, wholly unaffected except through what you choose to consume through your screen. It’s like telling a rape victim she shouldn’t have been wearing those short shorts.
This take leaves out a ton of nuance. About 40% of Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006, almost 20 years ago. Many Palestinians alive today have not ever known a different government. Hamas is basically an organized gang, but they have also built infrastructure in Palestine (for their own benefit, but those benefits trickle down). To some people receiving those benefits of course they’re the good guy. There are plenty of Palestinians who don’t agree with Hamas, just like many Americans don’t agree with Trump (or Biden, or with the amount of money we spend shooting missiles at folks). Comparing things to Hitler is such a common argument for people to try to make that it is considered a logical fallacy, [reductio ad hitlerem.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) comparing the two misunderstands the Palestinian conflict *and* trivializes the Holocaust. most people suffering under both Hamas rule and the current conditions in Palestine did not vote for Hamas.
This doesn’t matter. Hamas is the elected and only government of Gaza. It doesnt matter that some dont support, most do. You start a war, dont be surprised if you get very impacted by it.
And why is that? Is it because they weren’t allowed to have an election in 18 fucking years? Who forced them onto an open air prison with no water in the first fucking place? And how is it a fair fucking fight when one side has America? You refuse to engage in good faith and do not understand what you’re talking about.
You know who supported Hamas's rise to power? Fucking Netanyahu did. So by your logic, Netanyahu and all of his supporters deserve to be killed by indiscriminate IDF bombings too?
That sounds like the kind of PR fluff they tell people while doing it...meanwhile none of the people tied up in traffic or watching it on the news are thinking anything other than "these are emotionally stunted toddlers."
Many native Americans DID support the British because of how badly they were being treated. The revolutionary war was also led by a group of privileged white elites.
1 in 5 Revolutionary War soldier on the US side was black and they usually remained in the service 2 years, longer than their white peers.
The folks who benefited were mostly white elites, though.
Yeah and Washington, initially against recuiting black soldiers, only did so when the situation was dire. The Brits also offered to free enslaved people to recruit them.
Just take a look at how many colleges globally are now engaging in protests and encampments, encouraged and inspired by the first American ones. There are now protests on all seven continents.
I don't think the people in traffic are the audience for the protesters. This protest affected maybe 10,000 people directly. Let's say almost all of them are turned off toward the cause. The real audience is the 10,000,000 people who are watching the inconveniences caused by the protest. If even 1% of them are turned on to the cause by the protest, they've won support for the cause that more than offsets the anger of all those folks stuck in traffic.
They think their cause justifies the disruption of others. Yet the moment another group does the same thing like at an abortion clinic they would have a problem with it.
I’m not really convinced. I think the shift in attitudes about Israel is due to 3 main things:
1. A growing populist movement in the Republican Party that is skeptical of foreign intervention/entanglement.
2. Changing demographics that dilute Israel’s traditional base of support.
3. Increasing divergence between Israel’s Government and American Jews.
For #s 2 and 3, apathy is probably more relevant than antipathy.
I think most people, even many liberals, just view the college protests as another performative outburst and the media’s attempt to turn it into the 60s as another example of their standard cynical conflict porn.
Republicans in Congress have used this opportunity to move closer towards Israel as an opportunity to differentiate from Democrats. Trump boasts of being incredibly pro Israel, the evangelical movement is closely intertwined. 1 seems flawed
1. A growing populist movement in the Republican Party that is skeptical of foreign intervention/entanglement.
Kind of seems like Israel is the exception though, they are gungho for Bibleland and hoping it brings on the Book of Revelations or some crazy shit. Or they actually like that Israel is some racist colonialist monster and they are going to unapologetically support that to own the woke decolonize crowd.
I never claimed a 100% or immediately success rate…just that it is effective. We are still talking about the issues brought up during that movement 15 years later, as that really normalized the conversation around wealth disparity and financial security in the digital age. Just because it wasn’t successful in its objectives then and in that form doesn’t mean it was ineffective.
Occupy Wall Street was 100% effective in it's aim - the 2008 election was the first time we ever heard income inequality discussed in a presidential debate. Getting the word out about income inequality was quite literally the main goal of OWS.
The Gaza protests are at least as concrete as Occupy. Maybe more. I know what Occupy was concerned about but I can't name a single specific objective. Ditto Floyd protests.
Gaza protestors want very concrete things (which I don't support): ceasefire, divestment, cuts in aid to Israel, and "return" of the land of Israel.
The Civil Rights movement had specific legislation: anti-lynching, voting rights, equal opportunity, etc.
The anti-Vietnam war movement is closer to the Gaza protests. But that's an imperfect analogy too. And I don't think those protests shifted public sentiment as much as the Pentagon Papers. They did get Nixon and a lot of right wing politicians elected which is what may happen in November.
>Because historically it does increase support for a cause over the long term, if done at a wide scale.
I'm not really sure if you can even say this, or if it's just the case a cause was gaining traction anyway and these kinds of protests simply didn't stop it from getting more popular. There's not really a control group to compare it to.
If it’s a cause or a symptom of an ideological shift, the outcome is the same where it snowballs into a bigger discussion point in the national discourse.
Meh, shifting away from Israel has been highly coordinated. I recall, maybe back in 2014-2015, that the Truman National Security Project really started pushing it. There, you have many from the feds, media, lobbying, etc. coordinating efforts, and they’re quite successful. The protests are more a product of the structural changes put forth by people who shape the public perception, rather than the other way around
No, you have to do it where it effects business and government. But this is outlawed now. They will be arrested.
All they can do is annoy the wrong people.
They broke everything.
I don't know if there is really a scientific basis to this (or a sociological basis if you prefer), and I would be happy to hear about it if there is, but I think the theory a *Protestor* has is that it doesn't really matter if there's a short term backlash, because getting their *true message* out will outweigh it in the long term. I think they would claim that by reacting how you have, you are doing their bidding essentially. And they would claim they have examples to look back at like the Civil Rights movement, and this does seem like a fairly compelling success story of this theory. The Just Stop Oil people have some interesting ideas about this, though only time will tell if they are correct.
One idea that does seem to make sense is that "radical protest" moves the Overton window, thereby making it politically easier for the other side to concede positions once thought extreme, but which are now thought to be moderate.
I will say I am not entirely convinced by parts of these theories (please feel free to link any actual studies ). Essentially, it's not clear to me that the backlash won't grow as large as the movement itself. There is also the issue of survivorship bias.
Under that framework, the logical approach by each side is to take an extreme position, which may help explain some of the polarization we have today.
In business and/or civil disputes, I suppose arbitration is designed as a counter to this tendency.
Absolutely. I had a similar theory to Overton when I worked for a Nader related group in the late 80s. But I called it the issue continuum.
I have a line: when you ask for nothing that's what you get. When you ask for the world you don't get it, but you get a lot more than nothing.
Yes "extreme" positions get more movement to a progressive position than if they weren't expressed.
https://pacscenter.stanford.edu/publication/extreme-protest-tactics-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements/
Google is your friend. I didn't even use Google Scholar. It's a good idea to read academic papers to expand your base of knowledge.
https://pacscenter.stanford.edu/publication/extreme-protest-tactics-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements/
“Get off that Edmund Pettis Bridge”.
“Stop dumping my tea in the harbor.”
Good lord. The boomers are leaving a giant fukking world of shit to those that come after and they are to be nice and convenient about it?
Their aim isn’t to inconvenience people. It’s to influence decision makers.
However since we chose to live in a city that hosts these decision makers, we get to reap what they sowed. It’s pretty straightforward example of fuck around and find out!
Well they got you talking about it. Is your ire enough to make you actively support genocide? No? Then I'd say mission accomplished. And if it is, well then I guess their answer would be fuck you and your commute anyway.
It's a holdover from the Civil Rights era. Made sense then because the people doing the society harms were here lol.
Doesn't make sense now, but protestors don't know what else to do (also things like cointelpro to disrupt effective actions might be involved lol)
When you try to talk about actually effective actions, they just say "No we have to take to the Streets!!!"
Okay then have fun 🤷🏾♀️
The goal isn’t really to make the public like the protesters themselves, but to get it in the news and to get people talking about the reason they’re there.
You know how you grew up with MLK Day? What do you think he's famous for again?
Do you know why activists like John Lewis, Cornell West, etc have appeared on the news and the protests that they led in their youth?
Ever heard of SNCC, students against Vietnam, the Kent State protests or the student sit-ins throughout history?
Shut the fuck up. Here you are whining on the internet while the truly strong are in the streets.
These youngin's are taking real risks. Your just a touch screen warrior, like myself. So take a chill pill.
you’re right! we need riots instead. you think you’re inconvenienced? what about the people of palestine that the US is killing without a second thought?
These threads are exactly why DC votes left but still has such shit policies. “We love the environment, so we recycle, but we are NIMBYs about building new dense housing because property values!” “We say we hate war, but we’re more viscerally annoyed at protests than Congress for funding violence!”
There have been lots of posts along the lines of this one in this sub lately and I find it really disheartening. For me, it's not that the people making the posts or the people agreeing with them don't care about Palestine. It's that they don't care about protesting and organizing and direct action fundamentally. The sentiment being expressed could easily be applied to any protest about anything.
Like, the complaint that a protest for/against anything inconveniences your commute or day to day life, and that this inconvenience makes you care less about the issue - at it's core it's so similar to criticizing rioters for breaking windows. I remember the BLM protests/riots of a few years ago and how people were spilling tears over the (insured) broken windows of a hard rock cafe as though that was in any way comparable to a man being murdered by law enforcement. Well I just don't see much difference in complaining that your commute was worsened by a protest.
Yes, anything that interferes in your commute is annoying, I get that. But it's just disheartening to see people care more about their commute than their government's complicity in the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent civilians. And the argument that the protests achieve nothing, and there's nothing you could do even if you wanted to break my heart for the same reason. We live in a democracy, our government, who we vote for, uses our money, that we give them, for many things. We can influence how that money is spent. We are responsible for how it's spent. That can be uncomfortable to sit with, because it puts a certain onus on us that we often don't want. I sympathize with that too. But ultimately I just think it's sad how little efficacy people feel they have and how happy they are with their status quo.
We live in the DC metro area, protests of all sorts are part of the package. I suppose at least I can show all these posts to conservative friends and acquaintances who seem fixated on this fiction that DC is Lib city. If anything, it's proof that this is Centrist City.
If I set a paper bag of shit on fire in front of your house, that’d get your attention for sure. By many explanations I’m seeing, that would make for an even more effective protest than blocking my commute. The engagement! The views!
It draws attention to the issue by more than just those who are stuck in traffic. The news covers it and it gets seen by millions. There are tons of protests everyday in DC but most get ignored.
Well, I wasn’t there but I now know about it because it was on the front page of the Post and the Times in the last few days. Companies and brands scheme endlessly to try to get coverage like that, yet these kids got it for free by being loud and breaking shit, at least figuratively.
On the other hand, if it were happening in my city and impeding me going about my business, I would probably not as think as favorably about the coverage :(
Because it's intended to make you upset, not to get your support. Enough protest over time disrupting life generates news and generates conversation and eventually contributes to some small change.
Several colleges with protests like these have listened to the protestors have taken some steps towards divestment.
Undeniably this issue is now on the front of everyone's mind and it wouldn't be without protest. They aren't trying to make you comfortable.
Because spoiled children are used to getting their way from weak parents by pitching fits. Why you dont see this crap unless they are in a crap hole that protects them
Everyone has to follow the law. If it's a large protest, a permit is required. If you don't have a permit, don't cry and stomp your feet when you get arrested.
I doubt many of these kids have ever had a job, they don't understand what a problem they're causing because they can't relate. To them, Current Thing is more important because Current Thing is all they have to worry about.
Protesting is all well and good as a first amendment right. Where many protesters go wrong is the lack of organizing and strategy after the fact. Channel the anger into political action and advocacy to move the needle. Especially now when our attention is diverted in so many different directions. Otherwise, it’s viewed as a public nuisance that will eventually fizzle out.
There are very direct actions being requested of the universities at these protests though. This never ending demand for protesters to organize perfectly is exhausting and distracting. I’m beginning to think people engage with it so much because it’s easier than talking about the point of the protest.
Why not both?
Lay on Martin Luther King jr. Avenue and watch what happens
There wouldn't even be an MLK Ave if protestors hadn't inconvenienced drivers and marched across Pettus Bridge in Selma.
Youre right but that was a domestic issue being protested. They were protesting issues that were happening in their own country, state, and hometown. If people in another hemisphere were protesting US civil rights during this time, do you thing it would have done anything at all?
A big part of defeating Apartheid in South Africa was intense, international pressure from abroad. This happened in the form of protests, but also economic sanctions.
Thats good to know! Seems more effective than blocking people in the US from getting to work or getting to their flights on time
Who is funding Israel? Where are their weapons coming from? Who's tax dollars are being spent?
This. I swear to god some of the frequent users in here have some of the smoothest fucking brains
Our tax dollars are funding the genocide they’re protesting, moron
I understand. Thank you for providing your bout so eloquently. You have such sophisticated way with words lol
You seem to be missing the part about us funding that genocide, right here, locally. We sent them 26 billion last week and two days later were like “hey guys, you really need to explain what’s going on with those mass graves” as if we don’t have the intelligence to already have that answer. The people who voted on that live right here so why shouldn’t the largest disruptions be right here?
Then tell Hamas to move out of civilian areas, release the hostages and surrender.
Because a protest has to get people’s attention, hence why you have to inconvenience people to get their attention. If they were not inconveniencing you, you probably wouldn’t have made this post, which is actually bringing more attention to the cause. As long as the protest is nonviolent, they can do whatever they want as long as the protestors can live with the consequences.
Blocking someone’s access to free travel is not nonviolent. If you block traffic and I can’t move , it is tantamount to kidnapping. I’ve seen people draw kidnapping charges in a domestic dispute for as little as holding a door closed and refusing to let the person exit. If I am trapped, even in a public space, and blocked by traffic by protesters, how is that in any way different. It should have the same same felony kidnapping consequences
Negative publicity is better than no publicity. Some people have become president this way
If youre talking about it, its already made an impact
I guess this idiot poster doesn't understand we, the people, are supposed to be controlling our government and "be a part of it."" Thank you for demonstrating the big fucking problem ruining our nation (and why protesters feel compelled to inconvenience others in times of crisis). Average assholes are not paying attention to what our government is doing in our names and with the resources we provide to it-on every level, federal and local. Fuck you apathetic American. You get the pile of shit you got coming to you.
guess what a small minority of fucktards don't get to dictate a countries foreign policy. That is the opposite of democracy. We know exactly what our government is doing. wait....do you think America was this uninhabited country that the pilgrims found empty? the land under YOUR feet is stolen. the fuck I care about Palestianians who cheered in the streets after 9/11.
Virtually everything you wrote is either wrong, ill-informed, or pathetic. You're either 12, naive, or a zionist.
I did a ton of activism and protesting in my younger days and for some people I think part of the appeal is an idea of being righteous and part of a world changing revolution, they think their means are justified by the ends. A lot of the activism playbook comes from far left Marxist movements. I'm pretty liberal myself but am at the point where I agree that there's a point where it becomes counterproductive and just pisses people off.
Karl Marx didn't do direct actionism, I actually don't think he would even particularly like it. Marx has nothing to do with what 99 percent of people in America think has to do with Marx.
Because most people have empathy and are open to learning about a certain cause when they hear about it. Maybe do some research on whats going on in Gaza right now and you'll understand why its such a pressing issue.
You are assuming anyone who may have researched it must absolutely come to your same conclusions. Genocide is a big word, it might be good if you know what it means
I think a sane person would obviously not think that the death of over 30,000 Gazan civilians since October 7th is a good thing.
you might need some education yourself. Jews have been ethnically cleansed by the muslim world for the last 80 years. In Israel proper, not accounting for the west bank or gaza, but israel itself has a 18% muslim population. find me a muslim majority country that has a 18% jewish population. You can't. Ok , find me a muslim majority country that has even half that, a 9% jewish population. You can't. How about half that another time. A muslim majority country with a 4% jewish population. You can't. Muslim countries have persecuted Jews so much that there is no longer any Jewish communities of any size in any Muslim country. Did you know more Jews were expelled from Arab lands than Palestianians had to flee from Israel. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish\_exodus\_from\_the\_Muslim\_world](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world) in 1950 there were 140,000 jews in iraq. currently there are less than 10. This numbers are similiar all across the arab penisula. That was ethnic cleansing.
When in my comment did I say that the history that you just presented wasn't true? I was just trying to answer OPs question of why people are protesting. Also, just because Jews have been ethnically cleansed in the past, doesn't mean that the current ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is justified.
Free Palestine 🇵🇸🙏
from hamas
To be fair, conveniencing them hasn't worked.
Because historically it does increase support for a cause over the long term, if done at a wide scale. It makes distant issues more direct and forces people into a dialog about the issue, which slowly builds a critical mass of supporters and more people become sympathetic towards the protestors positions on the issue and stop having a tantrum for causing traffic or otherwise mildly inconvenienced. The Gaza protests are actually a great example of that in action because it is plainly obvious to anyone who is cognizant of international affairs how the public attitude towards Isreal has shifted in recent years. By forcing the issues to be upfront and visible to the public, it makes perceived injustices harder to ignore.
Personally I just find it weird for people to openly support kidnappers and murderers. And for the record, I’m Asian I don’t feel one way or another for either side for the most part. But in all seriousness if Hamas did that to Israel, the group of people who famously coined the phrase ‘an eye for an eye’. Of course they’re going to retaliate and try to beat the pulp out of you. You killed 1200 of their people and kidnapped their innocent, don’t be surprised if they’re going to try to inflict biblical consequences on you. And they can say what they want for their justification for their horrendous acts but at the end of the day, you went to a rave and you massacred people who were just trying to party. You kidnapped innocent people and you took the lives of many more innocent people. Putting that aside, you can look at the company both sides keep. On one hand there’s Israel who has allies of the US and on the other hand you have Palestinians who have allies in Iran, Hezbollah, Houthi etc. Add to the fact that so many of Palestinians neighboring Muslims countries refuse to take their refugees into their homeland because they know what type of trouble they bring, the world seems pretty clear on this. Nobody wants innocent people dying or massacred but the last people who should be complaining about it, ironically were also the same people who triggered this and there’s literal footage of them doing exactly what they claim is being done to them. Again, I just find it completely weird that Americans support the Palestinians even after they witnessed what was done by them.
The biggest issue I have with this is how easily violent extremist organizations that have a well known desire of commiting genocide against the entire west, were able to influence and indoctrinate our youth to their cause using social media. Nobody gave a shit about brown people dying until jews were doing the killing, completely ignoring the tens of thousands of people that have died in Yemen due to civil war, and conflicts in Sudan and Ethiopia/Tigray.
Yuuup, people in the US wearing Intifada shirts like it’s a fashion statement.
Ignorant kids. It's trendy to protest. Most of these fools have no idea what Intifada, or "from the river to the sea..," even means or what they're protesting.
I heard one protestor that was convinced that all the Jewish people in Israel are from Europe. Dude... Where do you think all the Jewish people from turkey??? Iraq! Or Egypt went? To France?
Same people who wear Che Guevara shirts.
You have to admit getting normally avowed radical feminists to voluntarily don hijabs is 🤌
The surprised pikachu face from college liberals when Hamas institutes Islamic law will be priceless.
I would gladly donate to a go fund-me to have these lgbtq and feminists go on a long vacation to some of these muslim countries that are propping up these protests. and just an FYI , Israel has the biggest gay pride parade than anyother country in the middle east or asia. but to be fair some of these Islamic countries do celebrate pride month, just in a different way, by throwing gay folks off the top of tall buildings.
Cosplay LARPing Terror
Im not trying to be a boomer when I say the youths are getting brainwashed on TikTok. Same stuff that happened to boomers with qanon during lockdowns that resulted in all the anti vaccine protests and people showing up in Dallas to await the return of JFK Jr.
> Nobody gave a shit about brown people dying until jews were doing the killing I take it that you weren’t around for the Iraq war protests? US has a direct hand in Palestinians being murdered, which is what people are protesting. Same cannot be said about the other conflicts you listed.
I was in the Iraq war, lol, I'm well aware, and it wasn't to the extent it is now.
So.... you weren't around for the protests then?
[удалено]
Those conflicts don't get enough likes on TikTok, so it doesn't matter.
You are either intentionally lying, just ignorant, or both. The free palestine movement has been going on for literal years. Just because you weren’t watching, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. People want other people to stop being killed, none of that has to involve “violent extremist” as you like to call them. You can advocate for human life, without wanting to kill others. How is that hard to understand??
Lol there are ppl wearing intifada shirts, it's beyond the free Palestine movement, you're now parroting terrorist propaganda. I've sat in security briefings where terrorist groups have been talking in back channels where or how they can create mass casualties during these protests.
If that were true, the free Palestine movement would include free Palestine from hamas too. But since we never see that and many times see support hamas, you statements are incorrect
When the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, there was an understanding that we were going to do what we had to do to make them stop. Most Americans feel the same way about Gaza. If you don’t believe me walk up and down the halls of the Congressional office buildings and count how many “We Stand With Israel” signs you see.
Spot on. The end goal isn’t “genocide”, the end goal is to root out terrorists and liberate the Palestinian people from an oppressive regime.
Per capita, for Israelis, Oct 7 was a larger attack than 9/11 was on the USA. Al-Qaeda has been effectively neutralized. So must Hamas. We can't (and shouldn't) expect Israel to stop short of eliminating the terrorists. War is tragic, and it's tragic that Hamas uses human shields which leads to the death of innocents. But Hamas started this, and they perpetuate it. They could end it tomorrow if they were to surrender and return the hostages.
Al-Qaeda has been neutralized? Interesting take .. we fought a war and sent tons of money and training so we could have Iraq and Al-Qaeda like Iran has the Houthi.
what people assume wrongly is that the people of Israel are split on this war and if only Netanyahu was not in power the people of israel would want a cease fire. that is so far from the truth , the vast majority of Israelis want Hamas destroyed.
Yeah I agree. The stated goal of the Hamas is to kill all the Jews. Like how do you support that group? Yes Isreal is doing things that aren't good, but at the same time it's war right? You can't declare war and then be upset your enemies are going to restrict you getting aid. If the choice is my people or your people, and you attacked me, it's not a choice. I don't think either side are good guys with no faults but I don't see how you support Hamas in this.
Overall, I agree with your comment, but I think there is a difference in supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Unfortunately, the current protests appear to be mixed on that with some actively supporting Hamas. As I understand it, Hamas was elected some 20 years ago and then no more elections have happened. So, yes, technically Hamas has had support by at least some Palestinians who are still alive, but if the numbers are anywhere close to accurate for the amount (and ages) of those killed by Israel in the last 7 months, most of them had nothing to do with electing Hamas.
You’re correct there hasn’t been election for close to 20 years (Hamas also killed and threw out the Palestinian Authority in a bloody week long fight in 2007) however October 7th was very popular amongst Palestinians in Palestine (around 75 percent approved). That doesn’t justify killing civilians of course but they certainly seem behind Hamas’ actions.
some of these college students don't see Hamas as terrorists but as legitimate resistance to occupiers, and their actions such as the indiscriminate killing and kidnapping of the Israeli population as legitimate resistance. they are wrong, but that is their belief.
Thank you for this. As a generally anti-war but still Jewish person, I don’t understand how this isn’t the most rational, common view point. We can dislike war and civilian casualties and still acknowledge that Hamas is an evil terrror org that wants as much civilan causality as possible, including the death of their own people.
Thank you. I’m an Iranian and have been screaming this at the top of my lungs. If your “cause” is aligned with the Islamic Republic regime in Iran’s interests, it’s time to take a step back and reevaluate your life choices. These traitors kill women on the street for not covering their hair yet they are concerned with “human rights” in Palestine? Fuck alllllllllll the way off. It’s frustrating that people in western societies who have all the freedom in the world are falling for the propaganda of oppressive fascist governments.
You’re talking about the Israel-Palestine conflict as though it was started by the Oct 7 festival attack. The history of the conflict goes way further back. The vast majority of people weighing in on the issue oppose atrocities from both sides and just want everyone to stop killing innocent civilians. It’s really not that complicated if you tune out all the bad-faith arguments calling opponents “supporters of genocide”
>Israel, the group of people who famously coined the phrase ‘an eye for an eye’. Not making an argument against your whole point at all, but for the history buffs out there: No, this phrase comes from Hamarabi's Code, one of the oldest "documents" (it was originally written in stone) containing standardized and codified laws in human history and also the earliest known example of a concept we now call "innocent until proven guilty." Hamarabi was a Mesopotamian King sometime around the 1600's B.C. before the abrahamic religions existed. The impact of this code is so significant that we still use translated phrases going on 3500 years later.
You can just search my post history because I’m not going to rehash this again, but basically even though killing 1400 people is bad it does not justify causing a humanitarian crisis for 2 million people and killing tens of thousands of others to achieve vague and ill defined war goals with rules of engagement that have an outsized amount of dead civilians when historically over this conflict Israelis have inflicted 20 casualties for every 1 Israeli causality caused by Hamas. Disproportionate reactions like this is how we messed up in Afghanistan and wasted 20 years and countless resources for no tangible gain. Israel is going to do the same here and make a new generation of recruits who won’t care why Isreal blew up their home and killed their family, just that they did will be more willing to fight Isreal in 10 years.
War causes crisis. Until Hamas is brought down there will be conflict. Perhaps Hamas should have not poked the Bear in October?
Tell me what the body count in the conflict was prior to 7 Oct. Also, again: that is not an excuse for the tens of thousands of civilians killed and 2 million displaced. That does not give Isreal the moral justification to kill civilians in to expedite their campaign’s objectives.
War is hell. Remember Dresden? Tokyo fire bombing? All done to try to end the conflict. Until Hamas is eradicated Israel needs to keep up their campaign.
Then free the hostages. When will these people protest Hamas. Right. NEVER.
Two things can be objectionable. They can have an opinion of Isreal’s response and also want hostages to be free. As Isreal is the greater power in this conflict that our government supports…it makes sense why they are targeted with protests. They are more susceptible to protests than Hamas is, at least.
I have not heard of the free Palestine crowd calling for the release of the hostages. Not sure if the protesters are trying to gaslight people, or are they are truly ignorant with respect to how they are representing their cause. Bottom line is the protesters aren’t condemning Hamas, just the Israeli government. Not a good look, full stop.
Do you need people to virch their disagreement with a terrorist organization? Between Isreal and Hamas: - which has diplomatic relations with western nations? - which receives western taxpayer funds? - which receives military support (arms, training, R+D, intel)? - which has lobbyists? - which runs advertising campaigns to justify their actions? Hamas is immune to these sorts protests because they fundamentally dont have any way to have pressure exerted on them from social movements, other than giving Isreal more arms and military support - which runs counter to objection of how Isreal is prosecuting its war goal. Again, people can object to both Hamas and Israeli tactics. Chastising one is not supporting the other.
It’s not about pressure, it’s about optics. And the optics don’t look good for the protesters.
It's ignorance mixed into our current special brand of privileged over-educated anarcho-socialism built on racial/identity determinism mixed with moral relativism. They could never condemn Hamas. In the "woke" paradigm, the weaker party is always the oppressed and the oppressed is always right. Actions mean nothing, only the relative victimhood of either side matters. As determined by the intersectional analysis of their respective identities. There is no good or evil. Morality is a function of the victimhood Olympics.
Don’t start shit and you won’t have to worry about a manmade humanitarian crisis you initiated. Again, why do you people lack so much common sense? It’s just astounding to me. Disproportionate reaction? You can’t massacre people and then when they come back to obliterate you, you’re really going to stand there and claim that they’re not fighting fair and their response wasn’t proportional? This is the point where you’re going to attempt to apply reason and common sense? And make claims of brutality and not being humane? Sorry bud, but your response is just reiterating my original point. It’s really disappointing how little common sense some of you display in your warped perspective.
See that right there is the problem - “you are responsible for me bombing you and causing a humanitarian crisis” is not an ethically justifiable position. Having the diplomatic and warfare equivalent of a tantrum and throwing all your toys at someone who pushed back at you is not something that can be handwaved away. 35k people have died because of the munitions Israel has fired. If 1400 Israelis killed justified this response, what would Israel be doing if Hamas killed 35k Israelis? Hamas has caused about 5k Israeli causalities since the early 2000s. I cannot accept the victim blaming of “Hamas made us destroy half of Gaza, 35k people, displaced nearly 2 million people who are at risk of starvation” I cannot trust Isreal to make a rational, level headed response at this point. If they are going to wage their conflict for bloodlust and revenge, then we as American taxpayers shouldn’t be funding that. Let’s not even go into their Jericho stockpile and what they can do if they feel at risk. Sorry but that just doesn’t balance out to me on an ethical level.
This kind of narrative pretty much pretends Hamas doesn't exist and hasn't done anything. There is video and other evidence that shows that Hamas has also been responsible for civilian deaths in Gaza. And at least 9,000-10,000 of the 35,000 dead were Hamas fighters per independent assessments. But instead the narrative is that Hamas doesn't exist at all and that Israel is unilaterally just firing at women and children when the reality is that there are Hamas fighters on the other side who are shooting back, who are ambushing IDF and blowing up buildings as well, catching civilians in the crossfire and using civilians as human shields. "Hamas only inflicted 5k casualties" also ignores the fact that every year for the last several years Hamas has fired THOUSANDS of rockets at Israel, which would have killed countless hundreds of people were it not for interceptions by the Iron Dome system. Those Hamas rockets are not trivial - when one misfired and hit Al-Ahli hospital the Gaza health ministry and media immediately claimed it was deliberately targeted by an Israeli JDAM, completely flattened the hospital and killed 400 people. But then the evidence surfaced that it was in fact a Hamas rocket. Dozens and dozens more of those Hamas rockets going off course or misfiring have caused similar destruction across Gaza yet all of that gets swept under the rug in the name of falsely making this a completely one-sided narrative of Israel Bad and Palestine Good. Sorry but the reality is that BOTH sides have committed great atrocities and both sides have been directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of thousands. But the big difference is that Hamas could end this tomorrow, by standing down and returning the hostages. Yet they refuse to do so. Meanwhile, if Israel stands down, what then? Hamas hasn't agreed to the court order that they unconditionally release all hostages, and they refuse to include the constant rocket barrages in any ceasefire deal. Hamas is also not acting in good faith and it is they who are prolonging the suffering of Palestinians. They need to go.
Yes - both sides have done atrocious things in this conflict. Nobody is the good guy. My objection to how Isreal is conducting its campaign is not an endorsement of Hamas or its tactics. Even discounting the 10k using 25k as our number, that’s still 2 civilians killed for every combatant killed. Iron dome is a good thing and one of the best military inventions of the century. The fact that is is so effect and largely countered the rocket threat (and decreased the munitions being launched) means it’s doing its job. I’m not sure how you’re trying to spin its effectiveness as something that shows they need to go to war over. Like if it’s so effective - which it is - why kill 25k civilians and cause 2m more to be displaced and face starvation? Even just with cold economics, it must be cheaper to maintain and improve iron dome than whatever this conflict is costing them.
2 civilians killed per one combatant while fighting a war solely in an urban environment, while your enemy hides in tunnels and uses civilian infrastructure for bases and human shields is extremely low and no where close to genocide. Go look up civilian casualty rates for other urban war campaigns in literally any other war and it is higher.
Worked for the US after 9/11. 3200 dead. The US killed over a million Iraqis and Afghanis. Didn’t see anyone protesting that…
Ethics don’t apply to murderers and kidnappers. If they were ethical to begin with, they wouldn’t be massacring people and initiating this conflict causing others to respond and inflict severe pain on them and their people. The problem as it appears to many people is that you want to apply to concept of ethics to one side but not the other. I’m just saying, if you act like a savage, don’t complain and act shocked and surprised when the other side reacts in an even more savage manner. You started this remember? And the language you chose to use was violence, so they will speak to you accordingly, in your preferred language. You using numbers just indicates which side is losing and which side is winning, nothing more. You can’t complain about being shot 8 times after you shot them once unprovoked. That’s not how gun battles work.
Most of Gaza’s citizens were not involved in 7 oct. I have no problem with going after the people involved, but all the evidence and facts I have seen have led me to disagree with the Israeli prosecution of their campaign. I cannot justify the causalities against the outcomes and their vague war goals and reluctance to articulate any sort of transitional government plan. and the laws of war and counterterrorism actions absolutely do apply to them as well. Israel is a signatory of many international treaties that require it to act in certain ways in conflict against nation states and non-government actors, even if those groups are not signatories. Israel is responsible for the people it chooses to kill when engaging its targets. Civilian causalities are inevitable, but I am not convinced Israel is actively concerned with the amount it is causing. I believe Isreal thinks it has the right to spend Palestinian civilian lives to prosecute its war and is doing so in a way it would not if Hamas agents were in Israeli cities.
Maybe Palestine’s allies should let the civilians into their countries as refugees then. For some reason they won’t, and would rather Hamas continue to use them as human shields. Hard to put the sole blame on Israel who is at war with Hamas for civilian deaths in Gaza while the only help offered by their allies is TikTok/Telegram propaganda, social media bots, and more shoddy rockets that kill more of their own civilians than they do Israelis.
Maybe forced mass deportation is a crime against humanity and hanging our hat on appeasement is not the best option. That’s still leaves that population on a border with Isreal and it’s the same problem.
Says you, thousands of miles away, wholly unaffected except through what you choose to consume through your screen. It’s like telling a rape victim she shouldn’t have been wearing those short shorts.
Palestinian people and Hamas are two different groups of people, hope this helped (or you could have educated yourself)
Palestinians elected Hamas. Its like saying Germans in 30s and Nazis are different. You elect evil, this is the result.
This take leaves out a ton of nuance. About 40% of Palestinians voted for Hamas in 2006, almost 20 years ago. Many Palestinians alive today have not ever known a different government. Hamas is basically an organized gang, but they have also built infrastructure in Palestine (for their own benefit, but those benefits trickle down). To some people receiving those benefits of course they’re the good guy. There are plenty of Palestinians who don’t agree with Hamas, just like many Americans don’t agree with Trump (or Biden, or with the amount of money we spend shooting missiles at folks). Comparing things to Hitler is such a common argument for people to try to make that it is considered a logical fallacy, [reductio ad hitlerem.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductio_ad_Hitlerum) comparing the two misunderstands the Palestinian conflict *and* trivializes the Holocaust. most people suffering under both Hamas rule and the current conditions in Palestine did not vote for Hamas.
This doesn’t matter. Hamas is the elected and only government of Gaza. It doesnt matter that some dont support, most do. You start a war, dont be surprised if you get very impacted by it.
And why is that? Is it because they weren’t allowed to have an election in 18 fucking years? Who forced them onto an open air prison with no water in the first fucking place? And how is it a fair fucking fight when one side has America? You refuse to engage in good faith and do not understand what you’re talking about.
So you’re the same as Biden now or previously Trump?
You know who supported Hamas's rise to power? Fucking Netanyahu did. So by your logic, Netanyahu and all of his supporters deserve to be killed by indiscriminate IDF bombings too?
That sounds like the kind of PR fluff they tell people while doing it...meanwhile none of the people tied up in traffic or watching it on the news are thinking anything other than "these are emotionally stunted toddlers."
Those tea party bastards really fucked up my luncheon. It's why I side with the British.
Many native Americans DID support the British because of how badly they were being treated. The revolutionary war was also led by a group of privileged white elites.
1 in 5 Revolutionary War soldier on the US side was black and they usually remained in the service 2 years, longer than their white peers. The folks who benefited were mostly white elites, though.
Yeah and Washington, initially against recuiting black soldiers, only did so when the situation was dire. The Brits also offered to free enslaved people to recruit them.
Remember that huge protest last year in a cornfield in Wisconsin?
Just take a look at how many colleges globally are now engaging in protests and encampments, encouraged and inspired by the first American ones. There are now protests on all seven continents.
I don't think the people in traffic are the audience for the protesters. This protest affected maybe 10,000 people directly. Let's say almost all of them are turned off toward the cause. The real audience is the 10,000,000 people who are watching the inconveniences caused by the protest. If even 1% of them are turned on to the cause by the protest, they've won support for the cause that more than offsets the anger of all those folks stuck in traffic.
But what if even 2% of those people are then turned against the cause entirely? Seems counterproductive.
Good point. Maybe there should be some kind of group like the Nielsen company that rates the effectiveness of your protest strategy. Hmm…
They think their cause justifies the disruption of others. Yet the moment another group does the same thing like at an abortion clinic they would have a problem with it.
https://preview.redd.it/rurrabskstxc1.png?width=2094&format=png&auto=webp&s=adf55b21469515b319ee612272ab9f92c79dd24d
I’m not really convinced. I think the shift in attitudes about Israel is due to 3 main things: 1. A growing populist movement in the Republican Party that is skeptical of foreign intervention/entanglement. 2. Changing demographics that dilute Israel’s traditional base of support. 3. Increasing divergence between Israel’s Government and American Jews. For #s 2 and 3, apathy is probably more relevant than antipathy. I think most people, even many liberals, just view the college protests as another performative outburst and the media’s attempt to turn it into the 60s as another example of their standard cynical conflict porn.
Republicans in Congress have used this opportunity to move closer towards Israel as an opportunity to differentiate from Democrats. Trump boasts of being incredibly pro Israel, the evangelical movement is closely intertwined. 1 seems flawed
So? It’s one of many reasons. Nobody gets convinced by a protest in a vacuum.
1. A growing populist movement in the Republican Party that is skeptical of foreign intervention/entanglement. Kind of seems like Israel is the exception though, they are gungho for Bibleland and hoping it brings on the Book of Revelations or some crazy shit. Or they actually like that Israel is some racist colonialist monster and they are going to unapologetically support that to own the woke decolonize crowd.
Historically? Name one?
Civil rights movement of the 1960s
I’ll counter with Occupy Wall Street … completely ineffective. Gaza is not Civil Rights in the US. It’s too abstract, for better or worse’s
I never claimed a 100% or immediately success rate…just that it is effective. We are still talking about the issues brought up during that movement 15 years later, as that really normalized the conversation around wealth disparity and financial security in the digital age. Just because it wasn’t successful in its objectives then and in that form doesn’t mean it was ineffective.
Occupy Wall Street was 100% effective in it's aim - the 2008 election was the first time we ever heard income inequality discussed in a presidential debate. Getting the word out about income inequality was quite literally the main goal of OWS.
And 16 years later look at all the equality.
The Gaza protests are at least as concrete as Occupy. Maybe more. I know what Occupy was concerned about but I can't name a single specific objective. Ditto Floyd protests. Gaza protestors want very concrete things (which I don't support): ceasefire, divestment, cuts in aid to Israel, and "return" of the land of Israel. The Civil Rights movement had specific legislation: anti-lynching, voting rights, equal opportunity, etc. The anti-Vietnam war movement is closer to the Gaza protests. But that's an imperfect analogy too. And I don't think those protests shifted public sentiment as much as the Pentagon Papers. They did get Nixon and a lot of right wing politicians elected which is what may happen in November.
>Because historically it does increase support for a cause over the long term, if done at a wide scale. I'm not really sure if you can even say this, or if it's just the case a cause was gaining traction anyway and these kinds of protests simply didn't stop it from getting more popular. There's not really a control group to compare it to.
If it’s a cause or a symptom of an ideological shift, the outcome is the same where it snowballs into a bigger discussion point in the national discourse.
Sad I had to scroll this far down to see the correct answer here. I appreciate you for giving a well put one.
Meh, shifting away from Israel has been highly coordinated. I recall, maybe back in 2014-2015, that the Truman National Security Project really started pushing it. There, you have many from the feds, media, lobbying, etc. coordinating efforts, and they’re quite successful. The protests are more a product of the structural changes put forth by people who shape the public perception, rather than the other way around
It’s not the sole reason sure, but it is an influence for sure.
No, you have to do it where it effects business and government. But this is outlawed now. They will be arrested. All they can do is annoy the wrong people. They broke everything.
 They are just idiots.
I don't know if there is really a scientific basis to this (or a sociological basis if you prefer), and I would be happy to hear about it if there is, but I think the theory a *Protestor* has is that it doesn't really matter if there's a short term backlash, because getting their *true message* out will outweigh it in the long term. I think they would claim that by reacting how you have, you are doing their bidding essentially. And they would claim they have examples to look back at like the Civil Rights movement, and this does seem like a fairly compelling success story of this theory. The Just Stop Oil people have some interesting ideas about this, though only time will tell if they are correct.
Research shows this kind if stuff reduces support. A conundrum because how else do you get attention in the age of oversaturation.
One idea that does seem to make sense is that "radical protest" moves the Overton window, thereby making it politically easier for the other side to concede positions once thought extreme, but which are now thought to be moderate. I will say I am not entirely convinced by parts of these theories (please feel free to link any actual studies ). Essentially, it's not clear to me that the backlash won't grow as large as the movement itself. There is also the issue of survivorship bias.
that would also be a view. It is also the view of the terrorist "if you give us a little bit we will go away"
Under that framework, the logical approach by each side is to take an extreme position, which may help explain some of the polarization we have today. In business and/or civil disputes, I suppose arbitration is designed as a counter to this tendency.
Absolutely. I had a similar theory to Overton when I worked for a Nader related group in the late 80s. But I called it the issue continuum. I have a line: when you ask for nothing that's what you get. When you ask for the world you don't get it, but you get a lot more than nothing. Yes "extreme" positions get more movement to a progressive position than if they weren't expressed. https://pacscenter.stanford.edu/publication/extreme-protest-tactics-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements/
Do you have a link to the study? Genuinely interested in hearing more about what's effective and not
The study is he made it up
Google is your friend. I didn't even use Google Scholar. It's a good idea to read academic papers to expand your base of knowledge. https://pacscenter.stanford.edu/publication/extreme-protest-tactics-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements/
https://pacscenter.stanford.edu/publication/extreme-protest-tactics-reduce-popular-support-for-social-movements/
The Civil Rights protests were about issues about people *in America* not thousands of miles away.
Vietnam anti-war movement maybe?
The protests got Nixon elected.
Where American citizens were dying by the thousands.
The Just Stop Oil people are fucking morons.
“Get off that Edmund Pettis Bridge”. “Stop dumping my tea in the harbor.” Good lord. The boomers are leaving a giant fukking world of shit to those that come after and they are to be nice and convenient about it?
Heh. Best response. "Can you kindly be quiet while we burn your world? IM TRYING TO WATCH PERRY MASON, HERE!"
The Boston tea party is a weird thing to choose to compare blocking a road to protest in today’s time, not gonna lie.
Their aim isn’t to inconvenience people. It’s to influence decision makers. However since we chose to live in a city that hosts these decision makers, we get to reap what they sowed. It’s pretty straightforward example of fuck around and find out!
Well they got you talking about it. Is your ire enough to make you actively support genocide? No? Then I'd say mission accomplished. And if it is, well then I guess their answer would be fuck you and your commute anyway.
They don’t think it’s going to increase support for their cause. Their cause is a pretext to get out of protest and demonstrate and create chaos.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
If you don’t have a propensity to kill and take hostages, then run home to hide behind your family, no one is going to come for you, bud.
https://preview.redd.it/oj9y0sigstxc1.png?width=2094&format=png&auto=webp&s=bde4c381237c987e7ee49a55ccf1ecee3fad0078
Well they don't. They aren't really trying to get you on their side. Just bringing awareness. Which you can debate is useful or not also I guess.
It's a holdover from the Civil Rights era. Made sense then because the people doing the society harms were here lol. Doesn't make sense now, but protestors don't know what else to do (also things like cointelpro to disrupt effective actions might be involved lol) When you try to talk about actually effective actions, they just say "No we have to take to the Streets!!!" Okay then have fun 🤷🏾♀️
The goal isn’t really to make the public like the protesters themselves, but to get it in the news and to get people talking about the reason they’re there.
If protests were convenient and didn't bother people than they wouldn't be effective. This isn't a new practice.
Made you write a Reddit post about it, seems like visibility is working.
You know how you grew up with MLK Day? What do you think he's famous for again? Do you know why activists like John Lewis, Cornell West, etc have appeared on the news and the protests that they led in their youth? Ever heard of SNCC, students against Vietnam, the Kent State protests or the student sit-ins throughout history?
They're emotional reactionaries...not deep thinkers.
But you’re a gamer lol
You should be able to run over anyone who blocks public highways. No reason you should be held there against your will.
Based
People who salivate about scenarios in which they can murder people are totally well adjusted and not creepy in the least
It's a distraction created by the people that don't want you knowing what their really up to.
Cause they're woke morons
It makes people like you talk about it, thereby raising awareness of the issue. It’s apparently working.
Are you currently talking about the issue? Would you have been if they hadn't inconvenienced you? Seems like an effective tool to me.
Because their goal is to intimidate people into supporting their cause, not to convince them.
dumb assholes like you aren’t their audience
Me reading about activists then suddenly your samsung was top tier schitt
can’t tell if this satire or not 😂
Shut the fuck up. Here you are whining on the internet while the truly strong are in the streets. These youngin's are taking real risks. Your just a touch screen warrior, like myself. So take a chill pill.
People said this same shit during the civil rights movement
When your head is so far up your own rear end, the brain is deprived of oxygen. This can lead to poor judgment and an inability reason.
[удалено]
you’re right! we need riots instead. you think you’re inconvenienced? what about the people of palestine that the US is killing without a second thought?
https://preview.redd.it/y9fygyhxcmxc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cd3859b7c74ebc8c5c69a2a5d3cc624b287ab405
These threads are exactly why DC votes left but still has such shit policies. “We love the environment, so we recycle, but we are NIMBYs about building new dense housing because property values!” “We say we hate war, but we’re more viscerally annoyed at protests than Congress for funding violence!”
Have you been alive in 2020?
Because they're complete fucking morons.
There have been lots of posts along the lines of this one in this sub lately and I find it really disheartening. For me, it's not that the people making the posts or the people agreeing with them don't care about Palestine. It's that they don't care about protesting and organizing and direct action fundamentally. The sentiment being expressed could easily be applied to any protest about anything. Like, the complaint that a protest for/against anything inconveniences your commute or day to day life, and that this inconvenience makes you care less about the issue - at it's core it's so similar to criticizing rioters for breaking windows. I remember the BLM protests/riots of a few years ago and how people were spilling tears over the (insured) broken windows of a hard rock cafe as though that was in any way comparable to a man being murdered by law enforcement. Well I just don't see much difference in complaining that your commute was worsened by a protest. Yes, anything that interferes in your commute is annoying, I get that. But it's just disheartening to see people care more about their commute than their government's complicity in the deaths of thousands and thousands of innocent civilians. And the argument that the protests achieve nothing, and there's nothing you could do even if you wanted to break my heart for the same reason. We live in a democracy, our government, who we vote for, uses our money, that we give them, for many things. We can influence how that money is spent. We are responsible for how it's spent. That can be uncomfortable to sit with, because it puts a certain onus on us that we often don't want. I sympathize with that too. But ultimately I just think it's sad how little efficacy people feel they have and how happy they are with their status quo. We live in the DC metro area, protests of all sorts are part of the package. I suppose at least I can show all these posts to conservative friends and acquaintances who seem fixated on this fiction that DC is Lib city. If anything, it's proof that this is Centrist City.
Same reason why protests fail in the US. They’re too scared to inconvenience Congress & WH.
If I set a paper bag of shit on fire in front of your house, that’d get your attention for sure. By many explanations I’m seeing, that would make for an even more effective protest than blocking my commute. The engagement! The views!
to be fair, it did lead to you posting about it, which increased conversation and awareness which is kind of the point.
Free Palestine? The majority of Muslim countries have rejected them lol. Go protest in the Middle East
Pro Hamas protesters made me late to a birthday party two weeks ago. I already hated them but now I really really hate them.
It draws attention to the issue by more than just those who are stuck in traffic. The news covers it and it gets seen by millions. There are tons of protests everyday in DC but most get ignored.
Well, I wasn’t there but I now know about it because it was on the front page of the Post and the Times in the last few days. Companies and brands scheme endlessly to try to get coverage like that, yet these kids got it for free by being loud and breaking shit, at least figuratively. On the other hand, if it were happening in my city and impeding me going about my business, I would probably not as think as favorably about the coverage :(
I would strongly suggest that you read Letter From Birmingham Jail by MLK, because he specifically explains the theory behind this type of protest.
Because it's intended to make you upset, not to get your support. Enough protest over time disrupting life generates news and generates conversation and eventually contributes to some small change. Several colleges with protests like these have listened to the protestors have taken some steps towards divestment. Undeniably this issue is now on the front of everyone's mind and it wouldn't be without protest. They aren't trying to make you comfortable.
“Why are all these people sitting at the Woolworth’s counter? I’m hungry!”
Virtue signaling
Because spoiled children are used to getting their way from weak parents by pitching fits. Why you dont see this crap unless they are in a crap hole that protects them
r/washdc’s regulars are learning all about the definitions of protest today!
Everyone has to follow the law. If it's a large protest, a permit is required. If you don't have a permit, don't cry and stomp your feet when you get arrested.
People like you are so annoying 😭
All I can say is don’t protest on my street. I don’t play with idiots.
I doubt many of these kids have ever had a job, they don't understand what a problem they're causing because they can't relate. To them, Current Thing is more important because Current Thing is all they have to worry about.
Got u to post “free Palestine” so …