BoP can't account for a ton of things that people falsely attribute to it, whether you approve of BoP or not. BoP cannot account for:
- Specific weather conditions
- Number of safety cars
- Other teams making errors
- Your team making errors
- Random failures of the car
- *Tire wear*
- Driver skill, as noted below
I'm welcome to be corrected on any of the above regarding BoP though.
no. There is a big reason why Andre only drove the car for 4 hours of the race and Estre did 8 hours and Laurens did around 12 and I can tell you it was not random.
The weather is the most important one, and with that temperatures aswell.
The teams know a lot about the tyres, their cars and how they interact, but only after the fact. Not one of the teams could have possibly known how their car works on a given tyre in the specific conditions we had, and just 2 or 3°C difference in travk temp can completely change the competitiveness. The softs worked for longer on a warming track on the toyotas than some others, in conditions as we usually have in french summer, the ferrari may have struggled on mediums and needed hards earlier, but be faster.
Throw in changing conditions, wind, rain, drizzle etc - it is impossible to accurately predict performance and balance it well for one unknown condition. And to then balance many cars and different concepts over a wide range of conditions is impossible. One concept can work better in rain but lose time on a hot and dry track. You can't balance that out just by adjusting weight and power.
I think the ferrari, porsche and toyota were well balanced, the caddy seemed to struggle to keep pace up and keep tyres alive, so it would need a bit of help, same for the BMW and alpine, though it the latter decent pace until it blew up. I reckon the lambo isn't far off, just lacked topspeed. The obvious weaker cars were the pug and IF. The peugeot just seemed slow and lacked grip, did have the topspeed though, if that's setup or not I couldn't tell you.
I think they did a good job, the pug needs a buff, the IF needs a buff and more time, but we're very close to as level a playing field as we can hope to have
to me it looked more like rhe peugeot just had fantastic traction and reached terminal velovity quicner, but yeah, the caddies struggled to actually fight
Isn't BOP literally just weight and power output adjustments? Things like aero, suspension and setups aren't affected by BOP if I'm not mistaken but correct me if I'm wrong.
Ferrari, being gimped on power, clearly understood that to win LeMans you need to be able to overtake. They had a setup for racing, while most other cars had a setup for fastest lap in free air. The amount of ground they were making up in the slipstream was insane.
Ferrari almost always was able to overtake whatever car was in front of them, whereas the opposite is mainly true for the other manufacturers. Toyota being the only that showed they were able to pass Ferraris on multiple occasions.
Caddy had less weight, slightly more power, and no penalty above 250khp compared to the 499P. They have zero complaints, BOP on paper gave them all the advantages to be fast. Ferrari understood their setup constraints and worked around them - slipstream slipstream and more slipstream
All I know is that the Ferrari had a clear straight line advantage on the caddy. It could be that the Cadillac had more downforce, adding drag, but even in a tow, it had no pull. It cost it the lead in the morning after Molina got in the chasing Ferrari. The Ferrari caught it by over a second a lap because it couldn’t pass the Peugeot
I think some of it is also based on the cards the aco/BOP deals them. They give everyone a bop where they can be the same pace on lap time, but not on top speed or how they obtain that lap time. We have known for some time that the Ferrari's have a top speed advantage (regardless of track) and it seems that is one of the most important things needed to win Le Mans.
The irony is that the Ferrari was faster in the dry then in the wet (most of the second half of the race was in wet/slippery conditions), they had numerous penalties on multiple cars, the winning car had a random component failure.
On the other hand, they were lucky with the SC, the drivers did zero mistakes, the strategy was as perfect as it could be given the challenging race-long conditions and had a setup made for overtaking, which it seems no other team thought was a good idea.
Tire wear did not seem to impact the big three that much, although the Caddy suffered heavily on 2nd and especially 3rd stints.
Overall, Porsche had the pace to win, but Ferrari had the best package. Without the penalties, they would have won the race with hours to spare.
Simply ignore these people. When BoP came out, I said so many times that real pace can only be discovered once the green flag drops on Saturday. But nah, they always prefer to scream like babies that someone will dominate or be too slow.
I feel like the ACO should do like SRO and lock the BoP tables from the public. And from the media too.
People would just scream even harder during/after the race then lol. It would be all speculation leading up, but as soon as the green flag drops and one car looks to be pulling ahead by a Planck length people would start screaming about how they "can just tell so and so got favorable BoP, it's the only explanation for the pace difference!"
You mean the people that Pre Race complain about BoP
Then Post Race complain that Car X got a way to light punishment because they singularly with 1 incident stopped Car Y (the car they support) from winning
Are not providing unbiased Opinions devoid of emotions?
Preposterous
i think that would be absolutely brilliant.
i absolutely detest how people think they can determine how fast a car will be just by looking at a table of numbers.
Idk it feels like maybe the Ferrari are faster than the Porsche on the straights at le mans. Wonder why a car that is faster on straights would perform well on a track that is... predominantly straights..?
You are correct they oblirated them on straights and gained pace, and not to say they were slower on corners because they weren't either they kept the distance, but whenever they overtake on the straight it was bye bye see ya.
Copying this from another comment I made further up:
Ferrari, being gimped on power, clearly understood that to win LeMans you need to be able to overtake. They had a setup for racing, while most other cars had a setup for fastest lap in free air. The amount of ground they were making up in the slipstream was insane.
Ferrari almost always was able to overtake whatever car was in front of them, whereas the opposite is mainly true for the other manufacturers. Toyota being the only that showed they were able to pass Ferraris on multiple occasions.
Aghh where is my forecasted win?
The truth is porsche had no race pace. The no6 was easily the fastest porsche out there and only 4th. Still better than last year and by a pretty big margin.
First, the 963 doesn't have tire life. They always lost time in the pits because the car chewed up tires like gum.
Then idk what happened at the end, all porsches started identifying as lmp2s and had zero straight line speed. Ferrari and toyota were flying past them.
Overall still lots of work left for them. The car is better than last time, but only for maybe a podium if the 51 got a decent penalty.
Teams always complain about bop. Toyota sandbagged a lot for le mans and ferrari didn't have many chances to show their pace. Porsche did none and paid the price.
I guess penske themselves are amateurs huh:
[https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/kuratle-porsche-963s-were-missing-top-speed/](https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/kuratle-porsche-963s-were-missing-top-speed/)
"While the No. 4 Penske Porsche had recorded the fastest top speed of 344.5 km/h (214 mph) that equaled the Toyota GR010 Hybrids, the two other works Porsches struggled in straight line pace compared to the Toyotas and race-winning Ferrari 499Ps.
The No. 6 Porsche was considerably slower at 337 km/h (209 mph), with the No. 5 entry clocked at a best top speed of 336 km/h (208 mph) in the speed traps, suggesting the two full-season FIA World Endurance Championship cars could have been on a different aero strategy."
The Porsches were an absolute beast through the third sector of the course. They sacrificed top speed to make it fast through the Porsche curves and ford chicane.
You could see the data in the hyper pole lap. #6 was two seconds down at the end of the Mulsanne straight then started clawing back the time from Arnage onwards. it was on the absolute knife edge through all the corners but that's where it made all the time up.
Come the race and the all the Porsches were catching the opposition through the corners. They were significantly faster, but the extra drag screwed then on the straight. If they caught traffic into tetre rouge it looked like they had a parachute on them.
I suspect they looked at the weather and piled on the downforce for a wetter race than they got. The 5 hours of safety car running nullified the advantage they had when it was truly wet and the light sprinkles of rain wasn't enough to slow everyone else's top speeds on the straight down for them.
The #6 crew ragged the car to keep it in contention, but they were always fighting with twitchy car. They had to overdrive it in the corners to catch up time lost on the straight,
I think this is the best comment I’ve seen across all the comments in all these threads. I suspect the 963 would have been strong throughout the night and they never got to flex there with the safety car and rain.
Hyper pole results without traffic, a car that lose 2 seconds in mulsane can easily loose that even more in the corners with traffic and with all those cars and all those laps statistically you are f'd, but impressive 4th nonetheless.
Strange decisions they made to sacrifice top speed when they race on a track that they overtake on the straights.
The thing that mostly surprised me was that it was not 1 2 toyota after last year.
Its damn impressive that the Porsche drivers were able to control the 963 for the whole race. Watching estres pole lap I was concerned we would see at least a few spins by several of the 963’s
Did we see the same race? As soon as a Ferrari or Toyota passed a Porsche it dissapeared in the horizon for the passed Porsche. The intervall times only increased, not decreased.
And the 963 has terrible tire strategy. I barely saw a double stint. Lost a lot of time to that too.
But you can't deny the 6 crew was great. They were easily the fastest porsche and the best finisher.
That's Le Mans though. It's 24 hours. We can predict anything we want to, but until the green flag drops, no one really knows what's going to happen. Heck, it's sports in general. Outside of Mecachrome that is. I'm pretty sure we were all at least somewhat predicting that.
I still think they were favourite and not significantly disadvantaged relative to Ferrari, Toyota and Cadillac. They also had 6 cars, while every other brand had 3 at most. They just made a few errors (4 crashing, 99 with issues, 5 and 6 with strategic errors; The Hertz Jotas were not that fast (the 12 had not been setup ideally obv. after the crash, the 38 just had slower drivers).
I definitely don’t think that they want a Toyota vs Ferrari, rather Toyota has to do anything in their power in order to keep up. It was just an unlucky race for Porsche and they had some strategic errors
The comments in that post were such a shitshow. Nothing against Porsche but I’m kinda glad they didn’t even podium just to prove so many of those commenters wrong
EDIT: the way the Toyota monstered up into what, like 4th by end of the 1st hour, you could already tell complaints of the Toyota being left behind by the BOP were unfounded. I think Toyota so easily could have won this. Especially if not for a) the #51 #8 contact or b) Pechito putting in a stinker of a final stint in the #7 failing put pressure on the fuel saving #50
I think anyone trying to make predictions on here based on BOP was always going to be wrong.
Regardless though this race was very hard to predict outside of picking one of the front runners and crossing your fingers luck fell your way.
The constant rain, crashes, safety cars etc all meant I think one of 9 or 10 cars could have won this race, the 50 just got through it all the best.
All the numbers in your comment added up to 69. Congrats!
9
+ 10
+ 50
= 69
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I always thought Ferrari was going to win on the basis that they've been the fastest car for the last two races and, as far as I could tell pre-race, didn't get any sort of BoP death penalty. As far as Porsche -- all I'll say is that I'll believe we get an LMDh winner at Le Mans when it happens, and not before.
sorry man, let's hope caddy will perform better next time.BTW, I thought Cadillac is fast from what I saw during the hyperpole. what had happened to Cadillac? especially the number 3( I do know that the 3 got some technical problems but I just feel their race pace is just not right)
Idk, they really just didn't have the pace. The #2 seemed good a few hours before the end strategy wise, they were even leading for a bit, but then it was just too slow and ate the tires as well
Toyota and Ferrari made some statements before the race week that lead people to that conclusion, and their fans followed suit repeating these statements. It was clear Porsche wouldn't be the fastest in the race, but the others just kept on whining, for which I really just can't like Toyota anymore
Well, to be fair, Porsche has been the best car year round across WEC and IMSA - Yes, Ferrari got screwed by the weather and the red flag out of two wins, but in the end the final result is what counts.
IMSA's BoP is completely different, so performance in that series isn't super relevant. Ferrari's been the fastest car in the WEC season, and significantly so. The final result is what counts for the standings, but that doesn't make Porsche the best WEC car.
IMSA is only LMDh, I'm not insinuating that the BoP is the same sorry if there was some confusion. However, the 963 has blitzed the entire LMDh field in IMSA, and lo and behold it has done the same at Le Mans as well. It's clear they have a great package overall.
WEC BoP takes into account the overall performance and not just the standings - in that respect, yes Ferrari was gimped as the last two races have shown they were very fast. Qatar they were average. Porsche was fast at all tracks in all conditions.
Regardless, you still need to execute and get lucky with all the shenanigans happening during an endurance race, BoP in your favour or not.
There were quite a lot of users on here last week who thought Porsche had the most favorable BoP, a handful of people even said they were being gifted the win.
I haven't watched it yet as I could not get it streamed into Vietnam, once part of the French Indochina. But before the weekend, everyone was saying it was Porsche! I thought with so many great teams, notwithstanding last year's winner Ferrari, and Toyota the five previous years before that, and then not to mention competitive Alpine, BMW, and Cadillac just to name a few, it was going to be a real free for all.
Anyway, I look forward to watching long stints of the safety car when the Youtube video comes out. Seriously, Le Mans is a great venue, and this is a new golden age.
I'm living in Vietnam right now and there are actually some ways for you to watch it:
-thapcamtv: if you want to watch illegally with a bad commentator( there is only one commentator) but free, this is your choice( you can actually watch from soccer, basketball, f1, MotoGP,...etc live in Vietnamese for FREE)
- 100% FIA WEC : 40 dollars and you have everything you need
- my combo: OTT navigator + VPN( strongly suggest express VPN): you can watch literally everything with this combo but this also comes with a hefty price
The Porsche BoP talk was stupid even at the time. Yes they were OP at Qatar, but pace-wise Ferrari should have won both Imola and Spa. People were just going off the results, but that's not how BoP works.
What should be penalized is how ferrari and toyota both "predicted" porsche cruising ahead.
It's bringing unecessary toxicity to the race and championship.
I was calling Toyota early on and they almost pulled off a last to first and probs would’ve won with the 8 without some “interesting strategies” from the Ferrari camp.
It was very funny. Porsche were right there and the bop difference between those three is minimal. I’m most confused at caddy which is great at IMSA and completely out for lunch in WEC.
The caddy is currently the fastest LMDH car in WEC, it clearly has the Porsche beat. Its gonna look amazing in IMSA because of course they only have LMDH cars there
This is a bit of a controversial topic.
I think Ferrari and toyota had big sandbags in the car during qualifying and they did not well in the last races because of weather and stratey so they did not get any extra weight added.
Porsche showed everything they had early on. They got punished for that. watch them sandbag even more next year as they see it rewarded.
They showered Ferrari in penalties, ignored the lack of wiper blades on Toyotas and Cadillacs, gave Ferrari lower power above 250kph right before the race via BoP.
‘They wanted Ferrari to win’ simply sounds sour, not astute.
That's the one that bugs me a bit. I'd have actually been fine if they called it a racing incident and not penalized it at all. But the penalty they gave was meaningless, to the point where I wondered why they even gave it. If there's going to be a penalty, it should have *some* type of consequence, otherwise why bother?
Overall though I think things were fine as well.
I think they classified the contact itself as a racing incident because hartley had decent space to deal with and punished the 51 just for the aggressivity to go at that corner in that way if it makes sense
Yeah 5s were perhaps too lenient but you punish the action and not the outcome. And Toyota tried to do the exact same to 51 some laps later causing a collision with 51, breaking off a piece but just short of spinning 51. That wasn’t even investigated.
Ferrari was given lenient penalties for destroying a BMW, given 20+ minutes to shut a door, was accused of technical issues which magically vanished…. The car was just faster.
Porsche fumbled, sorry
Porsche had everything going in its favor. They took pole and had the highest top speed (No.4 Porsche topped the speed trap) but their inconsistent setup (somehow the no.5 and no.6 had lower top speed) and questionable strategy call costed their race
Top speed was totally fake and achieved in a train of hypercars. Anyone could watch that race and see Ferraris just passing other cars down straights with seeming ease. I can’t remember a time a 963 just motored by an F car and Porsche would get good runs on people out of turns.
In the first qualifying, with 6 cars, they only managed to earn the last 2 spots in hyperpole. Both Ferrari and Caddy had 2/3 of their cars ahead of every Porsche; BMW, Toyota, and Alpine also each had their fastest cars set better times than the fastest Porsche. In hyperpole, Estre took pole because he was the last car to set a lap when the track condition was fastest and there was the least traffic. If they really were the fastest you'd expect their 6 cars to be skewed towards the top of the grid, with maybe one car screwing up and being further down. In reality Porsche were mostly mid pack with one outlier on pole. Their average starting position was 11.5
Also, Porsche did not actually have the highest top speed. The #4's 344.5 was achieved once, in a draft, early in the race. Other than that its fastest speed was 336, same as the other Penske cars. Both Toyotas also reached 344.5, the #7 doing so twice, with their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fastest speeds also being in the 340s. If you look through the timing sheets, Alpine, Ferrari, Peugeot and Toyota were all reaching consistently faster top speeds than Porsche throughout the week.
The pit wall made a strategy blunder for #6 and that very probably cost them the race, Proton had issues and it’s a miracle JOTA even had 2 cars running
i have no intention to criticize people who believe Porsche will win the race, all I want to ask is the reason behind it.( because after the release of the BOP, I did see some believe that)¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Porsche and Ferrari fans often suffer from a peculiar delusion of grandeur. It's like they’re living in a fantasy world where logic doesn't apply, especially at the beginning of the series when their claims were more outlandish than a sci-fi movie plot. Let them wallow in their own self-importance, I say. At least Porsche finally got a reality check 😂
If I've learned anything it's that we really don't know how to read BoP.
BoP can't account for a ton of things that people falsely attribute to it, whether you approve of BoP or not. BoP cannot account for: - Specific weather conditions - Number of safety cars - Other teams making errors - Your team making errors - Random failures of the car - *Tire wear* - Driver skill, as noted below I'm welcome to be corrected on any of the above regarding BoP though.
You forgot driver skill
Very true
Aside from a few stars like Estre, drivers are mostly a wash.
no. There is a big reason why Andre only drove the car for 4 hours of the race and Estre did 8 hours and Laurens did around 12 and I can tell you it was not random.
Theres such a huge pool of talented drivers in WEC now, it's crazy. Not sure what the person above was talking about
Lauren’s had the SC And I completely forgot about how bad lotterer was, I still think he’s a good driver because the P1 days live rent free in my head
They might want to give Andlauer a factory drive over Lotterer, plus Vanthoor/Estre/Andlauer is a proven lineup so the chemistry would still be there.
The weather is the most important one, and with that temperatures aswell. The teams know a lot about the tyres, their cars and how they interact, but only after the fact. Not one of the teams could have possibly known how their car works on a given tyre in the specific conditions we had, and just 2 or 3°C difference in travk temp can completely change the competitiveness. The softs worked for longer on a warming track on the toyotas than some others, in conditions as we usually have in french summer, the ferrari may have struggled on mediums and needed hards earlier, but be faster. Throw in changing conditions, wind, rain, drizzle etc - it is impossible to accurately predict performance and balance it well for one unknown condition. And to then balance many cars and different concepts over a wide range of conditions is impossible. One concept can work better in rain but lose time on a hot and dry track. You can't balance that out just by adjusting weight and power. I think the ferrari, porsche and toyota were well balanced, the caddy seemed to struggle to keep pace up and keep tyres alive, so it would need a bit of help, same for the BMW and alpine, though it the latter decent pace until it blew up. I reckon the lambo isn't far off, just lacked topspeed. The obvious weaker cars were the pug and IF. The peugeot just seemed slow and lacked grip, did have the topspeed though, if that's setup or not I couldn't tell you. I think they did a good job, the pug needs a buff, the IF needs a buff and more time, but we're very close to as level a playing field as we can hope to have
The caddy had no straight line speed. It couldn’t pass the Peugeot on two separate occasions. That’s why Molina caught it so quick after he got in
to me it looked more like rhe peugeot just had fantastic traction and reached terminal velovity quicner, but yeah, the caddies struggled to actually fight
Maybe so, but the Cadillac is usually very strong in power down and acceleration. Whatever the cause, it just couldn’t get past
Sandbagging
Isn't BOP literally just weight and power output adjustments? Things like aero, suspension and setups aren't affected by BOP if I'm not mistaken but correct me if I'm wrong.
Aero is technically considered but the data is so close on the cars that it's not a very big factor. So says the ACO.
Downforce is limited by the rules so there can't be much difference in aero efficiency to begin with if the design teams know what they're doing
Ferrari, being gimped on power, clearly understood that to win LeMans you need to be able to overtake. They had a setup for racing, while most other cars had a setup for fastest lap in free air. The amount of ground they were making up in the slipstream was insane. Ferrari almost always was able to overtake whatever car was in front of them, whereas the opposite is mainly true for the other manufacturers. Toyota being the only that showed they were able to pass Ferraris on multiple occasions.
I saw a Caddy driver complaing that their low weight/low power BOP was worse for overtaking than a more powerful car with equal pace.
Caddy had less weight, slightly more power, and no penalty above 250khp compared to the 499P. They have zero complaints, BOP on paper gave them all the advantages to be fast. Ferrari understood their setup constraints and worked around them - slipstream slipstream and more slipstream
All I know is that the Ferrari had a clear straight line advantage on the caddy. It could be that the Cadillac had more downforce, adding drag, but even in a tow, it had no pull. It cost it the lead in the morning after Molina got in the chasing Ferrari. The Ferrari caught it by over a second a lap because it couldn’t pass the Peugeot
I think some of it is also based on the cards the aco/BOP deals them. They give everyone a bop where they can be the same pace on lap time, but not on top speed or how they obtain that lap time. We have known for some time that the Ferrari's have a top speed advantage (regardless of track) and it seems that is one of the most important things needed to win Le Mans.
The irony is that the Ferrari was faster in the dry then in the wet (most of the second half of the race was in wet/slippery conditions), they had numerous penalties on multiple cars, the winning car had a random component failure. On the other hand, they were lucky with the SC, the drivers did zero mistakes, the strategy was as perfect as it could be given the challenging race-long conditions and had a setup made for overtaking, which it seems no other team thought was a good idea. Tire wear did not seem to impact the big three that much, although the Caddy suffered heavily on 2nd and especially 3rd stints. Overall, Porsche had the pace to win, but Ferrari had the best package. Without the penalties, they would have won the race with hours to spare.
And pit strategy
Probably LMH handles BOP Better, that Could be a possibility
If you don't agree tell me why
Simply ignore these people. When BoP came out, I said so many times that real pace can only be discovered once the green flag drops on Saturday. But nah, they always prefer to scream like babies that someone will dominate or be too slow. I feel like the ACO should do like SRO and lock the BoP tables from the public. And from the media too.
People would just scream even harder during/after the race then lol. It would be all speculation leading up, but as soon as the green flag drops and one car looks to be pulling ahead by a Planck length people would start screaming about how they "can just tell so and so got favorable BoP, it's the only explanation for the pace difference!"
LOL Planck length
You mean the people that Pre Race complain about BoP Then Post Race complain that Car X got a way to light punishment because they singularly with 1 incident stopped Car Y (the car they support) from winning Are not providing unbiased Opinions devoid of emotions? Preposterous
i think that would be absolutely brilliant. i absolutely detest how people think they can determine how fast a car will be just by looking at a table of numbers.
Idk it feels like maybe the Ferrari are faster than the Porsche on the straights at le mans. Wonder why a car that is faster on straights would perform well on a track that is... predominantly straights..?
You are correct they oblirated them on straights and gained pace, and not to say they were slower on corners because they weren't either they kept the distance, but whenever they overtake on the straight it was bye bye see ya.
Copying this from another comment I made further up: Ferrari, being gimped on power, clearly understood that to win LeMans you need to be able to overtake. They had a setup for racing, while most other cars had a setup for fastest lap in free air. The amount of ground they were making up in the slipstream was insane. Ferrari almost always was able to overtake whatever car was in front of them, whereas the opposite is mainly true for the other manufacturers. Toyota being the only that showed they were able to pass Ferraris on multiple occasions.
So.... ferrari had better strategy. Who knew
Yeah, real conneiseurs know that the plot demands a Ferrari victory.
Aghh where is my forecasted win? The truth is porsche had no race pace. The no6 was easily the fastest porsche out there and only 4th. Still better than last year and by a pretty big margin. First, the 963 doesn't have tire life. They always lost time in the pits because the car chewed up tires like gum. Then idk what happened at the end, all porsches started identifying as lmp2s and had zero straight line speed. Ferrari and toyota were flying past them. Overall still lots of work left for them. The car is better than last time, but only for maybe a podium if the 51 got a decent penalty. Teams always complain about bop. Toyota sandbagged a lot for le mans and ferrari didn't have many chances to show their pace. Porsche did none and paid the price.
The lack of straight line speed is mystifying. The #4 had the top speed at the trap (I think it kept it) but didn’t translate to the other cars.
That was early on in a train of Hypercars. Afterwards the straight line pace wasnt anything special either.
The no.4 had a different setup than no.5 and no.6, for some reasons. The no.4 is topping out at around 344 while the others is topping out around 337
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I guess penske themselves are amateurs huh: [https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/kuratle-porsche-963s-were-missing-top-speed/](https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/kuratle-porsche-963s-were-missing-top-speed/) "While the No. 4 Penske Porsche had recorded the fastest top speed of 344.5 km/h (214 mph) that equaled the Toyota GR010 Hybrids, the two other works Porsches struggled in straight line pace compared to the Toyotas and race-winning Ferrari 499Ps. The No. 6 Porsche was considerably slower at 337 km/h (209 mph), with the No. 5 entry clocked at a best top speed of 336 km/h (208 mph) in the speed traps, suggesting the two full-season FIA World Endurance Championship cars could have been on a different aero strategy."
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Good
The Porsches were an absolute beast through the third sector of the course. They sacrificed top speed to make it fast through the Porsche curves and ford chicane. You could see the data in the hyper pole lap. #6 was two seconds down at the end of the Mulsanne straight then started clawing back the time from Arnage onwards. it was on the absolute knife edge through all the corners but that's where it made all the time up. Come the race and the all the Porsches were catching the opposition through the corners. They were significantly faster, but the extra drag screwed then on the straight. If they caught traffic into tetre rouge it looked like they had a parachute on them. I suspect they looked at the weather and piled on the downforce for a wetter race than they got. The 5 hours of safety car running nullified the advantage they had when it was truly wet and the light sprinkles of rain wasn't enough to slow everyone else's top speeds on the straight down for them. The #6 crew ragged the car to keep it in contention, but they were always fighting with twitchy car. They had to overdrive it in the corners to catch up time lost on the straight,
I think this is the best comment I’ve seen across all the comments in all these threads. I suspect the 963 would have been strong throughout the night and they never got to flex there with the safety car and rain.
Hyper pole results without traffic, a car that lose 2 seconds in mulsane can easily loose that even more in the corners with traffic and with all those cars and all those laps statistically you are f'd, but impressive 4th nonetheless. Strange decisions they made to sacrifice top speed when they race on a track that they overtake on the straights. The thing that mostly surprised me was that it was not 1 2 toyota after last year.
Downforce is good in the rain, but the safety car canceled that advantage out.
Its damn impressive that the Porsche drivers were able to control the 963 for the whole race. Watching estres pole lap I was concerned we would see at least a few spins by several of the 963’s
That's what happens when you have pro drivers in the car!
Did we see the same race? As soon as a Ferrari or Toyota passed a Porsche it dissapeared in the horizon for the passed Porsche. The intervall times only increased, not decreased.
And the 963 has terrible tire strategy. I barely saw a double stint. Lost a lot of time to that too. But you can't deny the 6 crew was great. They were easily the fastest porsche and the best finisher.
pretty sure the rain also affected porsches suprise lack of pace because they dont have awd
I was forecasted a something vibes here
That's Le Mans though. It's 24 hours. We can predict anything we want to, but until the green flag drops, no one really knows what's going to happen. Heck, it's sports in general. Outside of Mecachrome that is. I'm pretty sure we were all at least somewhat predicting that.
I still think they were favourite and not significantly disadvantaged relative to Ferrari, Toyota and Cadillac. They also had 6 cars, while every other brand had 3 at most. They just made a few errors (4 crashing, 99 with issues, 5 and 6 with strategic errors; The Hertz Jotas were not that fast (the 12 had not been setup ideally obv. after the crash, the 38 just had slower drivers).
Obviously the ACO us favoring Ferrari and wants Ferrari v. Toyota to be the new rivalry ala Ford v. Ferrari. /s
I definitely don’t think that they want a Toyota vs Ferrari, rather Toyota has to do anything in their power in order to keep up. It was just an unlucky race for Porsche and they had some strategic errors
So all those commentators, now is the time to drop your pants. https://www.reddit.com/r/wec/s/AfD9thabiD That was my comment before the race.
The comments in that post were such a shitshow. Nothing against Porsche but I’m kinda glad they didn’t even podium just to prove so many of those commenters wrong EDIT: the way the Toyota monstered up into what, like 4th by end of the 1st hour, you could already tell complaints of the Toyota being left behind by the BOP were unfounded. I think Toyota so easily could have won this. Especially if not for a) the #51 #8 contact or b) Pechito putting in a stinker of a final stint in the #7 failing put pressure on the fuel saving #50
Because the people saying this don't realize a lot happens over the course of a 24h race
I think anyone trying to make predictions on here based on BOP was always going to be wrong. Regardless though this race was very hard to predict outside of picking one of the front runners and crossing your fingers luck fell your way. The constant rain, crashes, safety cars etc all meant I think one of 9 or 10 cars could have won this race, the 50 just got through it all the best.
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I always thought Ferrari was going to win on the basis that they've been the fastest car for the last two races and, as far as I could tell pre-race, didn't get any sort of BoP death penalty. As far as Porsche -- all I'll say is that I'll believe we get an LMDh winner at Le Mans when it happens, and not before.
People said we'd never get an LMDh winner in WEC, and now its happened twice, so I'd say you won't be waiting that long.
I was hoping for a miracle from Cadillac, imagine my pain in the last 2 hours after it looked possible for a little while
sorry man, let's hope caddy will perform better next time.BTW, I thought Cadillac is fast from what I saw during the hyperpole. what had happened to Cadillac? especially the number 3( I do know that the 3 got some technical problems but I just feel their race pace is just not right)
Idk, they really just didn't have the pace. The #2 seemed good a few hours before the end strategy wise, they were even leading for a bit, but then it was just too slow and ate the tires as well
Bamber put in an amazing stint just before the rain then Palou and rain tyres came on and we just started hemorrhaging lap time
Which car would be fastest if you removed BoP?
Toyota and Ferrari made some statements before the race week that lead people to that conclusion, and their fans followed suit repeating these statements. It was clear Porsche wouldn't be the fastest in the race, but the others just kept on whining, for which I really just can't like Toyota anymore
Who is ‘you guys’? If anything it was Toyota doing the ‘we’re too slow scam’.
to some people that assumed porsche will get the win easily before the race
Well, to be fair, Porsche has been the best car year round across WEC and IMSA - Yes, Ferrari got screwed by the weather and the red flag out of two wins, but in the end the final result is what counts.
IMSA's BoP is completely different, so performance in that series isn't super relevant. Ferrari's been the fastest car in the WEC season, and significantly so. The final result is what counts for the standings, but that doesn't make Porsche the best WEC car.
IMSA is only LMDh, I'm not insinuating that the BoP is the same sorry if there was some confusion. However, the 963 has blitzed the entire LMDh field in IMSA, and lo and behold it has done the same at Le Mans as well. It's clear they have a great package overall. WEC BoP takes into account the overall performance and not just the standings - in that respect, yes Ferrari was gimped as the last two races have shown they were very fast. Qatar they were average. Porsche was fast at all tracks in all conditions. Regardless, you still need to execute and get lucky with all the shenanigans happening during an endurance race, BoP in your favour or not.
That’s *your* perspective.
ok, my bad
There were quite a lot of users on here last week who thought Porsche had the most favorable BoP, a handful of people even said they were being gifted the win.
Meh. You get that on F1 forums with RedBull. IMO the post was low quality Monday morning finger pointing at a tiny number of people.
I feel like the weather massively benefited the Toyota & Ferrari with their 4 wheel drive
I think they’re only four wheel drive above a certain speed, at least that’s the theory
Over 190Km/h
Which cars average well above over a lap at the LM24
I haven't watched it yet as I could not get it streamed into Vietnam, once part of the French Indochina. But before the weekend, everyone was saying it was Porsche! I thought with so many great teams, notwithstanding last year's winner Ferrari, and Toyota the five previous years before that, and then not to mention competitive Alpine, BMW, and Cadillac just to name a few, it was going to be a real free for all. Anyway, I look forward to watching long stints of the safety car when the Youtube video comes out. Seriously, Le Mans is a great venue, and this is a new golden age.
I'm living in Vietnam right now and there are actually some ways for you to watch it: -thapcamtv: if you want to watch illegally with a bad commentator( there is only one commentator) but free, this is your choice( you can actually watch from soccer, basketball, f1, MotoGP,...etc live in Vietnamese for FREE) - 100% FIA WEC : 40 dollars and you have everything you need - my combo: OTT navigator + VPN( strongly suggest express VPN): you can watch literally everything with this combo but this also comes with a hefty price
I was thinking if Penske wins, they have had one hell of a season…Rolex 24, Indy 500, and le man. And last two years as nascar champions. Like damn.
Ferrari season, win the Daytona 24h, Lemans,and Monaco..
In the 24 hours of Le Mans, anything could happen no matter how fast one team is.
The Porsche BoP talk was stupid even at the time. Yes they were OP at Qatar, but pace-wise Ferrari should have won both Imola and Spa. People were just going off the results, but that's not how BoP works.
I'm happy to eat crow, I really thought they had a chance
Seems to me they tweaked the cars for 1 lap qualy rather than the, um, 24 hours race.
Everyone can have a great BoP until the weather punches you in the nose
Forza Ferrari 🏎️🏎️🏎️🏎️
What should be penalized is how ferrari and toyota both "predicted" porsche cruising ahead. It's bringing unecessary toxicity to the race and championship.
I was calling Toyota early on and they almost pulled off a last to first and probs would’ve won with the 8 without some “interesting strategies” from the Ferrari camp. It was very funny. Porsche were right there and the bop difference between those three is minimal. I’m most confused at caddy which is great at IMSA and completely out for lunch in WEC.
The caddy is currently the fastest LMDH car in WEC, it clearly has the Porsche beat. Its gonna look amazing in IMSA because of course they only have LMDH cars there
That’s why the Porsches are all finishing ahead of it I guess.
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Even when they aren’t the Porsches generally aren’t being challenged too much by them.
I was hoping for better but after qualifying happened I was like oof this is guna suck for them
Who said that? You gotta take care of those voices, dear redditor
I will, thanks for your advice( this is real, no sarcasm)
BOP was very fair this race. Porsche fucked the strategy
This is a bit of a controversial topic. I think Ferrari and toyota had big sandbags in the car during qualifying and they did not well in the last races because of weather and stratey so they did not get any extra weight added. Porsche showed everything they had early on. They got punished for that. watch them sandbag even more next year as they see it rewarded.
ACO doesn’t BoP based on final classification only, they watch races and saw Ferrari was 1-2-3 in imola and 1-2 in spa.
If they had actual won those races they might have been hit harder with BoP. It felt like they wanted Ferrari to win.
They showered Ferrari in penalties, ignored the lack of wiper blades on Toyotas and Cadillacs, gave Ferrari lower power above 250kph right before the race via BoP. ‘They wanted Ferrari to win’ simply sounds sour, not astute.
The penalties were laughable
Only the 5s one was perhaps a bit lenient.
That's the one that bugs me a bit. I'd have actually been fine if they called it a racing incident and not penalized it at all. But the penalty they gave was meaningless, to the point where I wondered why they even gave it. If there's going to be a penalty, it should have *some* type of consequence, otherwise why bother? Overall though I think things were fine as well.
I think they classified the contact itself as a racing incident because hartley had decent space to deal with and punished the 51 just for the aggressivity to go at that corner in that way if it makes sense
Spinning a direct competetitor for the win gave them 5 seconds added to the pit stop. Showered in penaltys sounds different to me.
Yeah 5s were perhaps too lenient but you punish the action and not the outcome. And Toyota tried to do the exact same to 51 some laps later causing a collision with 51, breaking off a piece but just short of spinning 51. That wasn’t even investigated.
Because that is the 51 moving under breaking, would've been a penalty for the 51 if you really want to call it
Of course. Probably death penalty for being a ferrari
nah DQ them /s
Ferrari was given lenient penalties for destroying a BMW, given 20+ minutes to shut a door, was accused of technical issues which magically vanished…. The car was just faster.
I never argued there were no events for Ferrari. Who are you arguing with?
Tbh Ferrari were by far the fastest in quali. Their drivers just decided to bottle it completely.
Porsche fumbled, sorry Porsche had everything going in its favor. They took pole and had the highest top speed (No.4 Porsche topped the speed trap) but their inconsistent setup (somehow the no.5 and no.6 had lower top speed) and questionable strategy call costed their race
Top speed was totally fake and achieved in a train of hypercars. Anyone could watch that race and see Ferraris just passing other cars down straights with seeming ease. I can’t remember a time a 963 just motored by an F car and Porsche would get good runs on people out of turns.
Last laps during the 51 and 6 battle was like that
The Ferraris and Toyotas had easily higher top speed than the Porsche
In the first qualifying, with 6 cars, they only managed to earn the last 2 spots in hyperpole. Both Ferrari and Caddy had 2/3 of their cars ahead of every Porsche; BMW, Toyota, and Alpine also each had their fastest cars set better times than the fastest Porsche. In hyperpole, Estre took pole because he was the last car to set a lap when the track condition was fastest and there was the least traffic. If they really were the fastest you'd expect their 6 cars to be skewed towards the top of the grid, with maybe one car screwing up and being further down. In reality Porsche were mostly mid pack with one outlier on pole. Their average starting position was 11.5 Also, Porsche did not actually have the highest top speed. The #4's 344.5 was achieved once, in a draft, early in the race. Other than that its fastest speed was 336, same as the other Penske cars. Both Toyotas also reached 344.5, the #7 doing so twice, with their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fastest speeds also being in the 340s. If you look through the timing sheets, Alpine, Ferrari, Peugeot and Toyota were all reaching consistently faster top speeds than Porsche throughout the week.
The pit wall made a strategy blunder for #6 and that very probably cost them the race, Proton had issues and it’s a miracle JOTA even had 2 cars running
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At the end Ferrari were only 1.1 seconds a lap faster than them so if there was a few more seconds on the clock Porsche would’ve had them
Did OP get lost on their way to r/WECcirclejerk or is this post for real?
I don't even know/WECcirclejerk exist lol
lost your bet did you? 🤣🤣
nah,it is actually the opposite. I bet for Ferrari with my friend and won 50 euros🤣
well i’d love to know why you’re criticising people for picking a favourite?
i have no intention to criticize people who believe Porsche will win the race, all I want to ask is the reason behind it.( because after the release of the BOP, I did see some believe that)¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Porsche and Ferrari fans often suffer from a peculiar delusion of grandeur. It's like they’re living in a fantasy world where logic doesn't apply, especially at the beginning of the series when their claims were more outlandish than a sci-fi movie plot. Let them wallow in their own self-importance, I say. At least Porsche finally got a reality check 😂
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No, Ferrari just paid the ACO better to ignore the rules