Tell them to call you sir and mister too.
“The Female Military Officer Is Called Sir”
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/alpha-blog-charlie/202103/the-female-military-officer-is-called-sir?amp
That will frost their cookies.
I actually worked with an older man at a previous employer that, when I brought it up, just started calling me sir.
My only issue is that I frankly loved that, but I'm a tall masculine presenting lesbian and I don't want it to turn into a joke at my expense with the immature dudes.
I literally said I don't want to be ma'am or Ms'd in the original post and I keep getting comments like these? We're not formal in our office.
Our bosses don't sir each other. Most everyone in the office does not sir and NO ONE ma'ams, because of the obvious age connotations. We're all on a first name basis up to our CEO. It's just these guys that half the time say "yes, sir, what do you need?" "Mr. (Last name) Can you look into this for me?"
I thought you meant like Mrs. Because that means married, I assumed you wanted to be called ma'am or Ms. Why post if not? Require a sir. Why be rude to someone trying to be helpful?
Is it because I said literally you think I'm rude? I've just seen this a lot and I didnt understand why.
Also, Im extremely tall and masculine presenting so I get Sir'd more than anything in my daily life so the word "Mrs." Never even touched my mind as an option, so it was doubly confusing for me.
Not to be combative but you realize this is really childish, right? These guys are obviously trying to show respect by using formal titles - Sir and Mr. X - As you clearly state, you do NOT want the same level of respect for your respective gender expression (Ms. or madam) and therefore these guys are simply respecting your wishes. Now you are going to intentionally misgender them because you’re unhappy with a situation you created for yourself…
No one does this but them. Even other guys on our same team, but those same guys that don't do it still get sir'd. That's an issue. They've never asked me, which is another issue. The whole office is on a first name basis up to the CEO. I'm the only woman in the department and using inclusive language in IT is the norm. Another issue. Using inclusive language should always be the norm especially in giant cities with gender protections. I get that everyone doesn't understand that based on their respective cultures.
It's needlessly exclusionary.
Edit: To add, I had a discussion with 2 of them. One was super receptive. The other looked embarrassed and then never attempted to stop (as I stated). So, like double the disrespect.
You’re mad that other people are choosing and preferring to use titles that are acceptable in the workplace, despite them, in no way, affecting you. They are not disrespecting you. Hell, they are not even ADDRESSING you. You’re mad how two other people are interacting because YOU don’t like it. They aren’t being exclusionary by showing respect. But your lack of respect for their preferences are showing.
If you can point out an actual disrespectful behavior anyone has done, i’m on your side… but choosing to call another coworker “sir” who identifies as male and has no problem with the title/show of respect, is NOT problematic behavior towards you, an uninterested third party.
Showing extra respect to one person or group of people while not showing the same respect to a different person or group of people is disrespectful.
If someone went down a line of 10 people and shook the first 5 people’s hands, just glanced at person 6 and didn’t shake person 6’s hand without any indication from person 6 that they don’t want a handshake, and then proceeded to shake the remaining people’s hands, that would be disrespectful.
Except she literally doesn't want anyone calling her by anything but her first name.
In terms of your analogy, it would be like shaking hands with everyone except the last person, who has made it clear they aren't comfortable with it.
She hasn’t expressed this to them though, that’s why I added the words “without any indication from person 6 that they don’t want a handshake.”
So I guess the more accurate analogy is refusing to shake person 6’s hand because person 6 is a woman, even if person 6 actually doesn’t want a handshake but hasn’t said so. The person shaking hands doesn’t know that person 6 doesn’t want a handshake, the reason that they’re not offering them a handshake is because they’re a woman and they don’t want to shake hands with a woman. They aren’t acting based on their knowledge of person 6’s preference, they’re acting out of prejudice.
I mean we actually go in-depth on the issues with Ms. And ma'am further down in the thread. Sir/Mr connotes respect historically, regardless of age. While Ms/Mrs./ma'am have always been more in regards to middle aged women and martial status. Women everywhere have dropped it's use and gendered formality has largely fallen out of favor in the North.
3 guys do it. All millennials actually. No one's picked up on anything from me and they were largely surprised when I addressed it. I don't think they ever thought to call me "Ms", but again, I'm a very tall masculine presenting woman that has heard "sir" far far more often than ma'am in my daily life and only from men. Honestly often enough to have to also hear men stumble over themselves trying to correct it, unprompted, after they hear my voice.
Sir/Mr. Is a term of respect often used by men to men to acknowledge respect for other men. I just don't think it should be when we're all on a team and if you're trying to be inclusive. Also, IT has a ton of gender non-conforming people and a culture of informality.
I don't think that's hard to understand and judging by this gigantic thread a lot of women see it has pretty isolating and bordering on insulting at worst. Just weird, at best.
So respecting one’s parents more than random other adults is disrespectful? That’s crazy. Not everyone deserves your respect equally and not everyone should get it.
that’s not what happened here. What happened here is everyone’s hand got shook and the hand shaker took an extra moment with his buddy to shake hands and say thanks… that’s not disrespectful to anyone else whom the hand shaker doesn’t share a closer relationship with.
edit to add: op DOES NOT want a “handshake” and has made that perfectly clear. Multiple times. She just wants people to ask her if she wants one so she can rudely deny it and then intentionally misgender you if you continue to give handshakes to others because she thinks handshakes are non-inclusive…
OP has clarified that these people do it with all men, not just the ones they’re close with.
Men and women deserve equal respect. Showing only one group of people (men) a level of respect while disregarding another group (women) is disrespectful.
This is literally false.
Op has clearly identified 2 individuals whom have this behavior. The described behavior is:
“half of the time [they] say “yes, sir, what do you need?” “Mr. (blank), can you look into this for me?”
It’s not all men, it’s not all the time, and OP does not want that level of formality from them. OP does not want gendered formality in the workplace AT ALL which is their opinion and to berate and abuse coworkers over that opinion is absurd.
It is all men. It's just not all the time. Sometimes they use it and sometimes they don't but with all the guys. And it's 3. I've clarified that in multiple threads. Who is abusing anyone right now? I literally made a joke and you went completely off the rails.
That's your opinion. Obviously a lot of women here see the issue differently and perceived disrespect is subjective. I'm not really looking to get you "on my side". Have a great day!
Obviously, this is your opinion… which is not more valid than anyone else’s. You’re extremely entitled and extremely disrespectful.
edit to add: Not to mention you are QUITE LITERALLY trying to get male engineers in your profession on your side. You want them to care that your opinion of how they act makes you feel some type of way… I’m not even saying you are wrong, at all, just the way you are going about it, and the attitude you are carrying is most likely why the ones you have pestered don’t really seem to care about your opinion…
So are you a man... on the women's engineering subreddit... telling me how to best behave to make male engineers comfortable? Because I only said I was not trying to get you on my side. We don't know each other, but I got to say you're the one coming across poorly right now. And obviously very combative, because people aren't agreeing with you. That ma'am comment got you riled up.
I’m neither a man, nor identify as one. I just work with a lot of them. In a situation that seems very similar to yours.
I also only care about their comfort as much as I care about yours (am willing to type on reddit about it). I want you to have a workplace that you feel comfortable in that also acknowledges and respects everyone’s opinions.
Additionally, I have never told you how to behave. Simply my opinions on your behavior (as judged from your very aggressive posting).
But yes, you deciding to intentionally misgender people because they aren’t conforming to your opinions does get to me. It’s really bad for the workplace and only further perpetuates harm.
edit: typo
This is unacceptable. I am a retired male engineer who worked for the Air Force for 39 years. I worked for, and interfaced with many female officers and civilians of higher rank. I always called them Ma'am or Colonel or Major and their last name if they were military, if they were civilian I would call them Ma'am or Ms If they requested I call them by their first name I would usually do that, sometimes I would slip and call then Ma'am. My very best boss (I had several really good ones) preferred I call her by her first name, but if we were with a group I would usually refer to her as Ms . I don't care if you are a women or a man, they need to follow this convention. I also had several women that worked for me, officers and civilians. I would ask them how they preferred to be addressed.
"In the social order in which one person is officially subordinated to another, the superior, if he is a gentleman, never thinks of it, and the subordinate never forgets it."
-General John. J. Pershing
That's honestly why it feels so pointed. If it were someone former military, then sure. None of them are.
I'm older or at a higher position or their peer. They refer to their peers, people at lower positions, higher positions, older, younger- it doesn't matter. They get called Mr. or Sir based only on the qualifier that they're men.
And no one's ever even attempted to ask or call me ma'am so I can correct them. Its just my first name. Always. So its obviously not a good look and not well thought out.
Male engineer.
My initial reaction would be to go with a diminutive title, but since the proper title would be "Master" for males under 18, I'm afraid they would just become more full of themselves.
Since you are from the South, I would just suggest some crude language not normally used in professional settings. Responding, "Bless your heart!" every time they call you by your first name should do the trick. I would also be inclined to drop their names altogether and simply refer to them as "puddin'."
Former military would be even worse, to be honest. If an enlisted or lower ranking officer called me (O3, female engineering officer) by my first name without my permission, there would be immediate problems.
Edit: By which i mean, it would be worse because if anything, it should be \*extremely\* ingrained to use an honorific with a supervisor for most military folks. And I'm not even part of a hardcore branch of the military lol.
Why would I call them Mr. When they're lower level or my peers and I don't want to be called Ms.?
I think you're under the impression everyone is doing this. It's 3 guys. Not every single man is doing it and they still get the Mr. And Sir treatment, regardless.
How did I fool anyone? My post says exactly this. 3 guys Sir/Mr Every other man in the workplace, regardless of reciprocity. It's not hard to understand or find sexist. I don't want to work on the set of Mad Men, but if you do go for it.
I get called Miss (first name) every time one guy needs something, but he calls everyone else (who are coincidentally men) boss. I once asked him why he couldn't call me boss too--it's gender neutral, isn't it?--and he nearly short circuited.
I dropped it since it's only one guy and he used to be a standard smarmy used car salesman, which is probably where he learned it. Kudos to you for fighting, I would be in the same boat if it were everyone doing that! I wish it weren't so common.
THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS TO ME TOO AND HAS FOR 10 FREAKING YEARS. Except my bosses do it too. It's incredibly alienating and annoying.
Bonus, got an email from a customer today addressed to my team that began with the salutation "gentlemen". They definitely know I exist, I was on the video call that preceded this email...
I ALSO GOT A GENTLEMEN EMAIL. I'm a Cloud Engineer. It was from the software developers who work with us regularly. I replied all to the chain and called them out on it, immediately.
"Gentlemen, eh? (Answers the question asked)"
tbf, I have truly wonderful peers, reports, and junior engineers and I get a lot of "gentlemen and lady" because they don't want to exclude me. While it's sweet to be included, the reminder that I'm the odd one out just makes me despair at gendered language in general
Yeah. I don't know if I've ever gotten on an email, that feels worse. Normally when I get it's on a call from dudes in a dude-heavy industry who are from or lived in the US South. More it's a habit to say gentlemen and then when the speaker hears it he consciously includes me. An email you have to look at and choose gendered language over literally everything else.
Starting an email to a group that includes a woman to "gentlemen" is roughly on the same level as misspelling the name of the person you're addressing it to
We call my boss Captain as a joke but other than that, no, we don’t use honorifics. Our (male) CEO gets called by his first name and our male & female c-suite execs get called by their first name as well.
In my workplace, everyone is ordinarily called by their first names, including the upper management. PhD's, which we have many of, are not normally addressed as Dr., unless we are making a public appearance. This convention seems common in high tech; during my days at Hewlett-Packard, the founders were always called "Bill" and "Dave". Nevertheless, I do use "Sir" or "Ma'am" in a very specific situation. If someone appears in my office on what appears to be an urgent matter, I will acknowledge them with "yes, Sir" or "yes, Ma'am". *I will do this even when the person I'm addressing is of lower rank.* What this really means is, "You have my undivided attention."
Although such honorifics are not used where I work, I think the situation described by u/Firm_Argument_ represents an egregious breach of protocol. The best way to fix it without making enemies is for HR to mention it in the next diversity training. (You, *do* have yearly training on diversity and harassment, right? If not, it needs to be in a memo that all managers share with their direct reports.) Raise this with HR as an issue that requires their action. If you get pushback, emphasize that gender discrimination is not *your* problem to fix. They should understand that you are doing them a favor by not documenting the issue in a formal complaint.
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. My mom dealt with this as one of the few women lawyers (and then partners) in her law firm.
Her technique was to use first names back. So while all the guys would be “Mr. So and So”ing each other, if they called her “Jane”, she called them “Joe”. She said it was a little uncomfortable but also felt like the best option
My (23M (at the time))very first office job. Was working for the COO of a small renewable energy company.
She was an amazing boss.
In the first meeting I had she emphasized that there are no sirs/madams call everyone by their first name or surname, if you're scared.
I live in a very patriarchal country but it still works.
This may only be a Southern thing but could it be out of respect or affection for that person? Southerners give titles to show that person is valued to them. I won't give a title to most of my coworkers but that secretary that's been here 30 years, knows everything and goes out if her way to help gets a Miss every time. I'm Miss Scubagirl44 to the guys that I've trained. If I'm helping a client with a difficult problem they will say mam'm to me. I'll refer to one of my coworkers as Mr. XYZ if I'm telling a junior coworker to go ask him something. That's telling him this person is valued so respect him. If he isn't valued or I don't like him I'll just say his first name.
First, were in Chicago, but I'm also a Southerner. Second, are you saying they're purposely devaluing me for other men that do the same job? Because they're not friends. They don't hang out. So, I'm unsure how else to take this other than "Maybe they don't do it because they don't respect you the same way.", which is kind of the point of the post.
Well yes, but it's a different level of respect. My coworkers that are liked and do a decent job won't get it. It's those that have extra value for that person or that office. Getting that level of respect takes time and you have to provide them a reason to value you more. Enough to openly state they value this person. My boss doesn't get it and shes a good boss. The guy who is an expert at the computer system and will always drop everything to help you does. They treat you as an equal. That's not bad.
Could just be an office thing. They call each other that and you are not a man. If it started after you started working there I would feel it's a deliberate insult.
Do you see how being the only woman in a an all male department that that could be exclusionary? I've also worked there longer than all of them so it does suck for this suddenly to become a thing in a workplace that had verbal neutrality before.
The point is inclusive language in a place you're in 8 hours a day so you don't feel odd man out on your own team. Most women don't want to feel like there's a boys club they work in. That's part of the point of this subreddit.
Yeah, something is up. I'd feel insulted. Not sure what you should do. I would act like I didn't notice and not give them the satisfaction of upsetting you. It's pretty childish if it's a group effort. Just do your work and get your paycheck. Stop trying and caring about your coworkers and get through the day. Look for another job. If they are going this far just to exclude you I would think sabotage is next. Watch your back.
Call. That. Ish. Out.
Female physician. I recently was on a committee meeting Zoom and a hospital board member referred to a (similarly aged, male, black) physician as Dr. ___ and me as [first name]. I corrected him. I’m out of this place soon and I am done with the degree of disrespect.
can't pass up an opportunity to shit on the usage of "ish." This word already exists as a suffix. Smallish. Biggish. "do you like tacos?" "ish."
Kids around 10 years ago started laughing when I used ish as a teacher. Pick a new word. Using "ish" is just confusing.
Downvotes in 3, 2, 1....
I think this could be a double-edged sword of sexism. Because of sexism, both ma’am and miss are slightly demeaning. Also, because of sexism there is no real equivalent to ‘sir’.
Personally, as a southerner engineer. I say yes ma’am and never call my bosses sir so maybe I can offset it in my office for you 😓.
The only person we all call Mr. is our semi-retired CEO :/.
Interesting. As a senior male engineer and manager I either referred to everybody by their first name and dropped the occasional Sir/Ma'am even to my junior and subordinates. I have very little tolerance (like none) for misogyny in the workplace and have always found my female colleagues to be fantastic engineers. As a technical leader in the company I felt it was my job to set the tone on how we treated others. Depending on your relationship with your boss you might consider bringing up the issue in your one on one?
Honestly, pick your battles. Asking for respect rarely works. Unless they are insubordinate with work, better to focus that energy on getting your superiors to notice you.
This is a point; however, how a person is addressed reflects the attitude towards that person. So requesting being treated with the same respect as other professionals of the same rank in the office is a battle worth fighting. It matters for promotions, for having one's work and professional opinions being properly acknowledged and accepted, and perhaps most important, for how the next woman is treated. This sub is full of women who are the tip of the spear for their gender in an office. Use of a first name for a woman in an office where the men are called Mr or Sir is infantilizing, condescending, and ultimately implies that she's not being then seriously. She's not a child, a pet, or an intern; she's a ranking professional. Language matters very much: how it's used can change our brains.
I'm a female IC at a senior role who's used your approach and it never worked for me. Most of the time, the woman is perceived as difficult to work with. There are A LOT of men second guessing a woman's credentials and if one were to pick a fight with every junior engineer, they'd be exhausted and won't last long in this industry. It's more effective to create the perception of seniority with people who can further your career so that you can get roles where you can actually exert influence/make impact and shift the culture.
Different approaches depending on how much energy one has.
Yeah, I got dinged on an annual review for being "difficult to work with" because I threw a geologist off my field project for refusing to follow the safety rules. The same review gave me top marks for safety. Guess what matters most to me.
Refusing to follow safety rules directly impacts work for you, others and for the insubordinate geologist. This goes beyond perception and should definitely be called out. I would call it out too.
This so much.
My very first thought was how much words matter and then showing respect to each other but not me has an effect on their own brains along with other people listening.
Also, I'm not the keep my mouth shut type if that wasn't already apparent. I grew up with all loud, sometimes sexist, brothers and I don't tolerate it.
Passivity doesn't get you promoted. I'm black so being labeled difficult to work with" isn't new to me either, but I would always quit atmospheres like that. I finally found management that respects and advocates for me based on my work and not on whether or not I act like what they expect from a woman. It's freeing.
This is how I (a mid-level female engineer) have always perceived this as well. I think it is an accurate characterization of this situation in my workplace, at least. Which isn't to say that's necessarily the case for OP as well, just that it's a possibility.
I've actually addressed a lot of his further up but my point is that, regardless, it's needlessly othering. This is especially true for women in male-dominated fields. If you can use a woman's name with sincerity you can drop gendered terms altogether and do the same with men.
That promotes inclusivity in language which is also very important. Words matter. It shapes the way we think about people. "Yes, sir" is empowering language that promotes strength and leadership. That's something you're denying female colleagues. So at least, put everyone on equal footing. I'm queer so Ms. And ma'am don't work for me. And regardless, to your point, there are plenty of women that aren't queer that feel similarly about the terminology. So the answer for me and others like me is decreasing gendered formality and ceasing it altogether if you truly want to be inclusive.
Not just Engineering, it's rampant in medicine also...
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/jwh.2016.6044?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed
Everywhere I have ever worked we used first names, but I’m also in academic tangent settings and it would be ridiculous to be addressing every colleague as “Dr. So-and-so”. Just use first names, it seems to be bleeding out into other fields now anyway.
Hehe I used to get this (only female and older male engineers) and they would address emails as “Gents and X” (x is my name) . Didn’t bother me too much but I would refer to them as gents in meetings sometimes haha. Ask for your “Lady” honorific if it bothers you.
Side note: I’m kind of surprised this still happens. I attributed it to 90s engineering culture so let it slide at that time but I think society has evolved
I have definitely dealt with this, though not everyone does it. I’m also the only woman in my office. I brought it up to my boss when he was still my coworker, and he said it’s because he can’t remember whether he should use Miss or Mrs. and gets them confused. I told him that Ms. exists for this exact situation, and he said he’s not going to remember that. I ended up having a full conversation with him about how that’s BS and he’s been making concentrated effort. I think now that he’s a manager, gender issues have been drilled into his head more
It sounds like a mini culture thing amongst those three. If they are using honorifics for people outside the three consistently that and not you, it is def a problem.
This is wild to me. Everyone in my company, from leadership on down, including phds, men and women, all go by first names. It's a big company doing a lot of fielded advanced technical work, not like a cute little academic niche.
Start referring to everyone with their qualifications and last name such as Engineer Smith and Engineer Clark and Drafter Matthews and Scientist Stevenson and see if it sticks.
Then you can be Engineer Firm_Argument just like the rest of them.
I would just suggest stating assertively “I would like to be referred as Ms or Ma’am”. It’s a workplace, they are your subordinates not your friends and you deserve equal respect as the other men. Surely they will find you “bossy” and bitch amongst each other, but it is always better to lay down your boundaries.
Idgi it sounds like they're already honoring that you don't want to be Ma'am or Ms. What do you want them to do - not to use it on each other? Ask them why they do it directly and say it sounds weird.
Not to excuse, but where are you geographically located?
We Sir/Ma’am a lot, I am in the south. But, it is definitely a 2 way street. I call technicians sir and Ma’am, they call me Ma’am, but we also use first names. It is partially just a cultural thing we do. No one is expecting to be called Sir/Ma’am but we all do it.
Edit: thinking about this more and my own situation, I am only ma’am’d by technicians or my superiors who I “Sir” so I am wondering…. Is it possible that it’s more of a cultural thing you haven’t “entered” into by also not saying Sir? I don’t know if I’m articulating this well. But I am thinking of situations where I have said “Sir” almost as a synonym for dude.
I'm from the South originally but have lived in Chicago for 10 years. I'd be more forgiving if they even attempted a ma'am and I was still down there.
Edit: But as I've said before above, it's only a few guys and they do it regardless of age, seniority, or whether it's reciprocated.
A lot of times it’s a courtesy gesture. I’m one of the older employees in my office so some of the engineers are around my age. We refer to each other by our first name and I’m ok with the younger employees doing the same. When I was one of the younger employees, I had no issues with addressing my superior by Mister.
I'm a mid-level engineer and higher up than a lot of them that are doing it. They're also peers with each other and doing it so, not sure that applies.
Edit: one guy says Mr.(last name) to the guy doing the exact same job as me with the same title. Calls me by my first name though.
I agree with FiriLarix that this behavior is likely some weird in-joke between these dudes. All this Mr and sir stuff is not normal Chicagoan behavior, no matter the age of these guys. (Unless there are unique cultural norms among engineers that I am unaware of—I’m not an engineer myself, but Reddit keeps recommending these posts). Without knowing these dudes, I can’t say if it’s more or less respectful that they aren’t including you in this whole thing. Do you think you can get away with just ignoring it and calling everyone by their first name?
I do call everyone by their first name as does everyone else in the 400 person office. It's not an in-joke. It's always in a respectful way about talking like actual issues we're working on. "Mr. (Last name) Can you please look at this chart for me and see if it makes sense." And "Thank you, sir, for looking into that for me."
I also don't understand why everyone on here thinks I want to be Ms. or Ma'am'd when I call out specifically multiple times that I think office honorifics especially when they're not the norm are just weirdly exclusionary. I've worked with a couple of these guys for actual years on a smaller team.
We're all 26-45 of varying ages. I only said they were on the younger-side to make sure no one thought I was dealing with an old school boomer.
Since OP added that this is happening in Chicago, I would guess that most likely they are saying it in jest. Especially since these 3 guys are younger AND they use it on each other.
Tell them to call you sir and mister too. “The Female Military Officer Is Called Sir” https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/alpha-blog-charlie/202103/the-female-military-officer-is-called-sir?amp That will frost their cookies.
I actually worked with an older man at a previous employer that, when I brought it up, just started calling me sir. My only issue is that I frankly loved that, but I'm a tall masculine presenting lesbian and I don't want it to turn into a joke at my expense with the immature dudes.
Time to shut that down if they do. You deserve the same respect the men are getting
I see your point:( So sorry this is happening. So they call you “ma'am”? Or nothing at all? It has to be equal.
So do you want exactly?
Stop them when they address you. "It's Ms. Firm_Argument_. Please proceed."
I literally said I don't want to be ma'am or Ms'd in the original post and I keep getting comments like these? We're not formal in our office. Our bosses don't sir each other. Most everyone in the office does not sir and NO ONE ma'ams, because of the obvious age connotations. We're all on a first name basis up to our CEO. It's just these guys that half the time say "yes, sir, what do you need?" "Mr. (Last name) Can you look into this for me?"
I thought you meant like Mrs. Because that means married, I assumed you wanted to be called ma'am or Ms. Why post if not? Require a sir. Why be rude to someone trying to be helpful?
Is it because I said literally you think I'm rude? I've just seen this a lot and I didnt understand why. Also, Im extremely tall and masculine presenting so I get Sir'd more than anything in my daily life so the word "Mrs." Never even touched my mind as an option, so it was doubly confusing for me.
"I literally said" is a very rude way to start a conversation. Sorry I misunderstood. Have a nice day.
Yes, starting with "I literally said" is the same as starting with "can't you fucking read?"
I can see that. I was a little frustrated because of all the comments saying this and me truly not understanding how they got that out of my post.
Take the win! Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
After much thought, I've decided to start Ma'am-ing them all.
Lol! Let us know!
Solid choice, hope it goes well
Fuck yeah!
Not to be combative but you realize this is really childish, right? These guys are obviously trying to show respect by using formal titles - Sir and Mr. X - As you clearly state, you do NOT want the same level of respect for your respective gender expression (Ms. or madam) and therefore these guys are simply respecting your wishes. Now you are going to intentionally misgender them because you’re unhappy with a situation you created for yourself…
No one does this but them. Even other guys on our same team, but those same guys that don't do it still get sir'd. That's an issue. They've never asked me, which is another issue. The whole office is on a first name basis up to the CEO. I'm the only woman in the department and using inclusive language in IT is the norm. Another issue. Using inclusive language should always be the norm especially in giant cities with gender protections. I get that everyone doesn't understand that based on their respective cultures. It's needlessly exclusionary. Edit: To add, I had a discussion with 2 of them. One was super receptive. The other looked embarrassed and then never attempted to stop (as I stated). So, like double the disrespect.
You’re mad that other people are choosing and preferring to use titles that are acceptable in the workplace, despite them, in no way, affecting you. They are not disrespecting you. Hell, they are not even ADDRESSING you. You’re mad how two other people are interacting because YOU don’t like it. They aren’t being exclusionary by showing respect. But your lack of respect for their preferences are showing. If you can point out an actual disrespectful behavior anyone has done, i’m on your side… but choosing to call another coworker “sir” who identifies as male and has no problem with the title/show of respect, is NOT problematic behavior towards you, an uninterested third party.
Showing extra respect to one person or group of people while not showing the same respect to a different person or group of people is disrespectful. If someone went down a line of 10 people and shook the first 5 people’s hands, just glanced at person 6 and didn’t shake person 6’s hand without any indication from person 6 that they don’t want a handshake, and then proceeded to shake the remaining people’s hands, that would be disrespectful.
Except she literally doesn't want anyone calling her by anything but her first name. In terms of your analogy, it would be like shaking hands with everyone except the last person, who has made it clear they aren't comfortable with it.
She hasn’t expressed this to them though, that’s why I added the words “without any indication from person 6 that they don’t want a handshake.” So I guess the more accurate analogy is refusing to shake person 6’s hand because person 6 is a woman, even if person 6 actually doesn’t want a handshake but hasn’t said so. The person shaking hands doesn’t know that person 6 doesn’t want a handshake, the reason that they’re not offering them a handshake is because they’re a woman and they don’t want to shake hands with a woman. They aren’t acting based on their knowledge of person 6’s preference, they’re acting out of prejudice.
Its also entirely possible they can pick up on the fact that she doesnt like it.
I mean we actually go in-depth on the issues with Ms. And ma'am further down in the thread. Sir/Mr connotes respect historically, regardless of age. While Ms/Mrs./ma'am have always been more in regards to middle aged women and martial status. Women everywhere have dropped it's use and gendered formality has largely fallen out of favor in the North. 3 guys do it. All millennials actually. No one's picked up on anything from me and they were largely surprised when I addressed it. I don't think they ever thought to call me "Ms", but again, I'm a very tall masculine presenting woman that has heard "sir" far far more often than ma'am in my daily life and only from men. Honestly often enough to have to also hear men stumble over themselves trying to correct it, unprompted, after they hear my voice. Sir/Mr. Is a term of respect often used by men to men to acknowledge respect for other men. I just don't think it should be when we're all on a team and if you're trying to be inclusive. Also, IT has a ton of gender non-conforming people and a culture of informality. I don't think that's hard to understand and judging by this gigantic thread a lot of women see it has pretty isolating and bordering on insulting at worst. Just weird, at best.
So respecting one’s parents more than random other adults is disrespectful? That’s crazy. Not everyone deserves your respect equally and not everyone should get it. that’s not what happened here. What happened here is everyone’s hand got shook and the hand shaker took an extra moment with his buddy to shake hands and say thanks… that’s not disrespectful to anyone else whom the hand shaker doesn’t share a closer relationship with. edit to add: op DOES NOT want a “handshake” and has made that perfectly clear. Multiple times. She just wants people to ask her if she wants one so she can rudely deny it and then intentionally misgender you if you continue to give handshakes to others because she thinks handshakes are non-inclusive…
OP has clarified that these people do it with all men, not just the ones they’re close with. Men and women deserve equal respect. Showing only one group of people (men) a level of respect while disregarding another group (women) is disrespectful.
This is literally false. Op has clearly identified 2 individuals whom have this behavior. The described behavior is: “half of the time [they] say “yes, sir, what do you need?” “Mr. (blank), can you look into this for me?” It’s not all men, it’s not all the time, and OP does not want that level of formality from them. OP does not want gendered formality in the workplace AT ALL which is their opinion and to berate and abuse coworkers over that opinion is absurd.
It is all men. It's just not all the time. Sometimes they use it and sometimes they don't but with all the guys. And it's 3. I've clarified that in multiple threads. Who is abusing anyone right now? I literally made a joke and you went completely off the rails.
That's your opinion. Obviously a lot of women here see the issue differently and perceived disrespect is subjective. I'm not really looking to get you "on my side". Have a great day!
Obviously, this is your opinion… which is not more valid than anyone else’s. You’re extremely entitled and extremely disrespectful. edit to add: Not to mention you are QUITE LITERALLY trying to get male engineers in your profession on your side. You want them to care that your opinion of how they act makes you feel some type of way… I’m not even saying you are wrong, at all, just the way you are going about it, and the attitude you are carrying is most likely why the ones you have pestered don’t really seem to care about your opinion…
So are you a man... on the women's engineering subreddit... telling me how to best behave to make male engineers comfortable? Because I only said I was not trying to get you on my side. We don't know each other, but I got to say you're the one coming across poorly right now. And obviously very combative, because people aren't agreeing with you. That ma'am comment got you riled up.
I’m neither a man, nor identify as one. I just work with a lot of them. In a situation that seems very similar to yours. I also only care about their comfort as much as I care about yours (am willing to type on reddit about it). I want you to have a workplace that you feel comfortable in that also acknowledges and respects everyone’s opinions. Additionally, I have never told you how to behave. Simply my opinions on your behavior (as judged from your very aggressive posting). But yes, you deciding to intentionally misgender people because they aren’t conforming to your opinions does get to me. It’s really bad for the workplace and only further perpetuates harm. edit: typo
This for me would be when I would remind them my proper honorific is doctor.
Good point!
This is unacceptable. I am a retired male engineer who worked for the Air Force for 39 years. I worked for, and interfaced with many female officers and civilians of higher rank. I always called them Ma'am or Colonel or Major and their last name if they were military, if they were civilian I would call them Ma'am or Ms If they requested I call them by their first name I would usually do that, sometimes I would slip and call then Ma'am. My very best boss (I had several really good ones) preferred I call her by her first name, but if we were with a group I would usually refer to her as Ms . I don't care if you are a women or a man, they need to follow this convention. I also had several women that worked for me, officers and civilians. I would ask them how they preferred to be addressed.
"In the social order in which one person is officially subordinated to another, the superior, if he is a gentleman, never thinks of it, and the subordinate never forgets it."
-General John. J. Pershing
That's honestly why it feels so pointed. If it were someone former military, then sure. None of them are. I'm older or at a higher position or their peer. They refer to their peers, people at lower positions, higher positions, older, younger- it doesn't matter. They get called Mr. or Sir based only on the qualifier that they're men. And no one's ever even attempted to ask or call me ma'am so I can correct them. Its just my first name. Always. So its obviously not a good look and not well thought out.
Male engineer. My initial reaction would be to go with a diminutive title, but since the proper title would be "Master" for males under 18, I'm afraid they would just become more full of themselves. Since you are from the South, I would just suggest some crude language not normally used in professional settings. Responding, "Bless your heart!" every time they call you by your first name should do the trick. I would also be inclined to drop their names altogether and simply refer to them as "puddin'."
Former military would be even worse, to be honest. If an enlisted or lower ranking officer called me (O3, female engineering officer) by my first name without my permission, there would be immediate problems. Edit: By which i mean, it would be worse because if anything, it should be \*extremely\* ingrained to use an honorific with a supervisor for most military folks. And I'm not even part of a hardcore branch of the military lol.
Start calling them by their first names, since you're apparently all on a first name basis.
Oh believe me, I have not nor will I ever call any of them Mr. Or Sir.
I mean… if you never have then it makes sense that they don’t return it…
Like I don't think gendered formality has a place in the modern workplace.
So if you have a PhD and you want to be called "Dr" you should start calling everyone "Dr"?
Then you should be refering to every other person with a phd doctor, yes. that is how this works
Why would I call them Mr. When they're lower level or my peers and I don't want to be called Ms.? I think you're under the impression everyone is doing this. It's 3 guys. Not every single man is doing it and they still get the Mr. And Sir treatment, regardless.
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How did I fool anyone? My post says exactly this. 3 guys Sir/Mr Every other man in the workplace, regardless of reciprocity. It's not hard to understand or find sexist. I don't want to work on the set of Mad Men, but if you do go for it.
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Wow. This is really you, huh? Way to be the antithesis of a girl's girl. A person's pronouns* FIFY
Girl we need to report this fool.
Okay someone's on the wrong end of the bell curve. 😆
I get called Miss (first name) every time one guy needs something, but he calls everyone else (who are coincidentally men) boss. I once asked him why he couldn't call me boss too--it's gender neutral, isn't it?--and he nearly short circuited. I dropped it since it's only one guy and he used to be a standard smarmy used car salesman, which is probably where he learned it. Kudos to you for fighting, I would be in the same boat if it were everyone doing that! I wish it weren't so common.
I think I know this guy
THIS ALWAYS HAPPENS TO ME TOO AND HAS FOR 10 FREAKING YEARS. Except my bosses do it too. It's incredibly alienating and annoying. Bonus, got an email from a customer today addressed to my team that began with the salutation "gentlemen". They definitely know I exist, I was on the video call that preceded this email...
I ALSO GOT A GENTLEMEN EMAIL. I'm a Cloud Engineer. It was from the software developers who work with us regularly. I replied all to the chain and called them out on it, immediately. "Gentlemen, eh? (Answers the question asked)"
tbf, I have truly wonderful peers, reports, and junior engineers and I get a lot of "gentlemen and lady" because they don't want to exclude me. While it's sweet to be included, the reminder that I'm the odd one out just makes me despair at gendered language in general
It's just unnecessary imo. There are plenty of ways to politely open an email that don't require gendered terms...
Yeah. I don't know if I've ever gotten on an email, that feels worse. Normally when I get it's on a call from dudes in a dude-heavy industry who are from or lived in the US South. More it's a habit to say gentlemen and then when the speaker hears it he consciously includes me. An email you have to look at and choose gendered language over literally everything else. Starting an email to a group that includes a woman to "gentlemen" is roughly on the same level as misspelling the name of the person you're addressing it to
Same. I just don't get how a "Hi All" doesn't suffice?
Exactly. "Hi all' is a perfectly adequate greeting that covers everyone and has the bonus of being short and easy.
Or just "Team" "Colleagues" if you want to feel fancy
For formal letters where I didn't know the recipient, I always went with "Dear Madam or Sir."
I find this even more exclusionary when I’m the only woman and do not taje it. Just say Team, and that is that.
I vote you refer to everyone as ‘comrade’
I have no advice since I've not dealt with that situation, but it would 1000% drive me up a wall.
Same! My boss calls everyone "sir" but calls me by my first name. I find it so bizarre.
If you have a PhD this is an excellent opportunity to pull the Doctor card.
We call my boss Captain as a joke but other than that, no, we don’t use honorifics. Our (male) CEO gets called by his first name and our male & female c-suite execs get called by their first name as well.
This happened on a team I was leading, so everyone, including the PhD, got called by first names. Not putting up with it.
In my workplace, everyone is ordinarily called by their first names, including the upper management. PhD's, which we have many of, are not normally addressed as Dr., unless we are making a public appearance. This convention seems common in high tech; during my days at Hewlett-Packard, the founders were always called "Bill" and "Dave". Nevertheless, I do use "Sir" or "Ma'am" in a very specific situation. If someone appears in my office on what appears to be an urgent matter, I will acknowledge them with "yes, Sir" or "yes, Ma'am". *I will do this even when the person I'm addressing is of lower rank.* What this really means is, "You have my undivided attention." Although such honorifics are not used where I work, I think the situation described by u/Firm_Argument_ represents an egregious breach of protocol. The best way to fix it without making enemies is for HR to mention it in the next diversity training. (You, *do* have yearly training on diversity and harassment, right? If not, it needs to be in a memo that all managers share with their direct reports.) Raise this with HR as an issue that requires their action. If you get pushback, emphasize that gender discrimination is not *your* problem to fix. They should understand that you are doing them a favor by not documenting the issue in a formal complaint.
I've been hit with "gentlemen" lmao
I work on a Navy base. I get yes maam, no maam, right away maam. Yamadamaama
Is this an Indian team? Kinda hilarious that they use Sir and Mr
I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. My mom dealt with this as one of the few women lawyers (and then partners) in her law firm. Her technique was to use first names back. So while all the guys would be “Mr. So and So”ing each other, if they called her “Jane”, she called them “Joe”. She said it was a little uncomfortable but also felt like the best option
My (23M (at the time))very first office job. Was working for the COO of a small renewable energy company. She was an amazing boss. In the first meeting I had she emphasized that there are no sirs/madams call everyone by their first name or surname, if you're scared. I live in a very patriarchal country but it still works.
This may only be a Southern thing but could it be out of respect or affection for that person? Southerners give titles to show that person is valued to them. I won't give a title to most of my coworkers but that secretary that's been here 30 years, knows everything and goes out if her way to help gets a Miss every time. I'm Miss Scubagirl44 to the guys that I've trained. If I'm helping a client with a difficult problem they will say mam'm to me. I'll refer to one of my coworkers as Mr. XYZ if I'm telling a junior coworker to go ask him something. That's telling him this person is valued so respect him. If he isn't valued or I don't like him I'll just say his first name.
First, were in Chicago, but I'm also a Southerner. Second, are you saying they're purposely devaluing me for other men that do the same job? Because they're not friends. They don't hang out. So, I'm unsure how else to take this other than "Maybe they don't do it because they don't respect you the same way.", which is kind of the point of the post.
Well yes, but it's a different level of respect. My coworkers that are liked and do a decent job won't get it. It's those that have extra value for that person or that office. Getting that level of respect takes time and you have to provide them a reason to value you more. Enough to openly state they value this person. My boss doesn't get it and shes a good boss. The guy who is an expert at the computer system and will always drop everything to help you does. They treat you as an equal. That's not bad.
No, that's not the case then. They do it to every person that's a man. It has nothing to do with extra respectful.
Could just be an office thing. They call each other that and you are not a man. If it started after you started working there I would feel it's a deliberate insult.
Do you see how being the only woman in a an all male department that that could be exclusionary? I've also worked there longer than all of them so it does suck for this suddenly to become a thing in a workplace that had verbal neutrality before. The point is inclusive language in a place you're in 8 hours a day so you don't feel odd man out on your own team. Most women don't want to feel like there's a boys club they work in. That's part of the point of this subreddit.
Yeah, something is up. I'd feel insulted. Not sure what you should do. I would act like I didn't notice and not give them the satisfaction of upsetting you. It's pretty childish if it's a group effort. Just do your work and get your paycheck. Stop trying and caring about your coworkers and get through the day. Look for another job. If they are going this far just to exclude you I would think sabotage is next. Watch your back.
Call. That. Ish. Out. Female physician. I recently was on a committee meeting Zoom and a hospital board member referred to a (similarly aged, male, black) physician as Dr. ___ and me as [first name]. I corrected him. I’m out of this place soon and I am done with the degree of disrespect.
can't pass up an opportunity to shit on the usage of "ish." This word already exists as a suffix. Smallish. Biggish. "do you like tacos?" "ish." Kids around 10 years ago started laughing when I used ish as a teacher. Pick a new word. Using "ish" is just confusing. Downvotes in 3, 2, 1....
Zero f's given. Are you actually mansplaining in this sub?
Enough f's given to reply to an inane comment. Providing context on a personal nit in a comment is mansplaining? Maybe a case of her-pretation
I think this could be a double-edged sword of sexism. Because of sexism, both ma’am and miss are slightly demeaning. Also, because of sexism there is no real equivalent to ‘sir’. Personally, as a southerner engineer. I say yes ma’am and never call my bosses sir so maybe I can offset it in my office for you 😓. The only person we all call Mr. is our semi-retired CEO :/.
Interesting. As a senior male engineer and manager I either referred to everybody by their first name and dropped the occasional Sir/Ma'am even to my junior and subordinates. I have very little tolerance (like none) for misogyny in the workplace and have always found my female colleagues to be fantastic engineers. As a technical leader in the company I felt it was my job to set the tone on how we treated others. Depending on your relationship with your boss you might consider bringing up the issue in your one on one?
Honestly, pick your battles. Asking for respect rarely works. Unless they are insubordinate with work, better to focus that energy on getting your superiors to notice you.
This is a point; however, how a person is addressed reflects the attitude towards that person. So requesting being treated with the same respect as other professionals of the same rank in the office is a battle worth fighting. It matters for promotions, for having one's work and professional opinions being properly acknowledged and accepted, and perhaps most important, for how the next woman is treated. This sub is full of women who are the tip of the spear for their gender in an office. Use of a first name for a woman in an office where the men are called Mr or Sir is infantilizing, condescending, and ultimately implies that she's not being then seriously. She's not a child, a pet, or an intern; she's a ranking professional. Language matters very much: how it's used can change our brains.
I'm a female IC at a senior role who's used your approach and it never worked for me. Most of the time, the woman is perceived as difficult to work with. There are A LOT of men second guessing a woman's credentials and if one were to pick a fight with every junior engineer, they'd be exhausted and won't last long in this industry. It's more effective to create the perception of seniority with people who can further your career so that you can get roles where you can actually exert influence/make impact and shift the culture. Different approaches depending on how much energy one has.
Yeah, I got dinged on an annual review for being "difficult to work with" because I threw a geologist off my field project for refusing to follow the safety rules. The same review gave me top marks for safety. Guess what matters most to me.
Refusing to follow safety rules directly impacts work for you, others and for the insubordinate geologist. This goes beyond perception and should definitely be called out. I would call it out too.
This so much. My very first thought was how much words matter and then showing respect to each other but not me has an effect on their own brains along with other people listening. Also, I'm not the keep my mouth shut type if that wasn't already apparent. I grew up with all loud, sometimes sexist, brothers and I don't tolerate it. Passivity doesn't get you promoted. I'm black so being labeled difficult to work with" isn't new to me either, but I would always quit atmospheres like that. I finally found management that respects and advocates for me based on my work and not on whether or not I act like what they expect from a woman. It's freeing.
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This is how I (a mid-level female engineer) have always perceived this as well. I think it is an accurate characterization of this situation in my workplace, at least. Which isn't to say that's necessarily the case for OP as well, just that it's a possibility.
I've actually addressed a lot of his further up but my point is that, regardless, it's needlessly othering. This is especially true for women in male-dominated fields. If you can use a woman's name with sincerity you can drop gendered terms altogether and do the same with men. That promotes inclusivity in language which is also very important. Words matter. It shapes the way we think about people. "Yes, sir" is empowering language that promotes strength and leadership. That's something you're denying female colleagues. So at least, put everyone on equal footing. I'm queer so Ms. And ma'am don't work for me. And regardless, to your point, there are plenty of women that aren't queer that feel similarly about the terminology. So the answer for me and others like me is decreasing gendered formality and ceasing it altogether if you truly want to be inclusive.
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It was a collective you. And thanks!
Not just Engineering, it's rampant in medicine also... https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/jwh.2016.6044?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori%3Arid%3Acrossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub++0pubmed
Everywhere I have ever worked we used first names, but I’m also in academic tangent settings and it would be ridiculous to be addressing every colleague as “Dr. So-and-so”. Just use first names, it seems to be bleeding out into other fields now anyway.
Hehe I used to get this (only female and older male engineers) and they would address emails as “Gents and X” (x is my name) . Didn’t bother me too much but I would refer to them as gents in meetings sometimes haha. Ask for your “Lady” honorific if it bothers you. Side note: I’m kind of surprised this still happens. I attributed it to 90s engineering culture so let it slide at that time but I think society has evolved
I have definitely dealt with this, though not everyone does it. I’m also the only woman in my office. I brought it up to my boss when he was still my coworker, and he said it’s because he can’t remember whether he should use Miss or Mrs. and gets them confused. I told him that Ms. exists for this exact situation, and he said he’s not going to remember that. I ended up having a full conversation with him about how that’s BS and he’s been making concentrated effort. I think now that he’s a manager, gender issues have been drilled into his head more
I would hide those annoying beepers in their office.
If it’s 3 young guys doing it they are probably just doing it as a meme, for fun. Call them by their first names.
It sounds like a mini culture thing amongst those three. If they are using honorifics for people outside the three consistently that and not you, it is def a problem.
This is wild to me. Everyone in my company, from leadership on down, including phds, men and women, all go by first names. It's a big company doing a lot of fielded advanced technical work, not like a cute little academic niche.
Start referring to everyone with their qualifications and last name such as Engineer Smith and Engineer Clark and Drafter Matthews and Scientist Stevenson and see if it sticks. Then you can be Engineer Firm_Argument just like the rest of them.
I would just suggest stating assertively “I would like to be referred as Ms or Ma’am”. It’s a workplace, they are your subordinates not your friends and you deserve equal respect as the other men. Surely they will find you “bossy” and bitch amongst each other, but it is always better to lay down your boundaries.
Idgi it sounds like they're already honoring that you don't want to be Ma'am or Ms. What do you want them to do - not to use it on each other? Ask them why they do it directly and say it sounds weird.
Not to excuse, but where are you geographically located? We Sir/Ma’am a lot, I am in the south. But, it is definitely a 2 way street. I call technicians sir and Ma’am, they call me Ma’am, but we also use first names. It is partially just a cultural thing we do. No one is expecting to be called Sir/Ma’am but we all do it. Edit: thinking about this more and my own situation, I am only ma’am’d by technicians or my superiors who I “Sir” so I am wondering…. Is it possible that it’s more of a cultural thing you haven’t “entered” into by also not saying Sir? I don’t know if I’m articulating this well. But I am thinking of situations where I have said “Sir” almost as a synonym for dude.
I'm from the South originally but have lived in Chicago for 10 years. I'd be more forgiving if they even attempted a ma'am and I was still down there. Edit: But as I've said before above, it's only a few guys and they do it regardless of age, seniority, or whether it's reciprocated.
A lot of times it’s a courtesy gesture. I’m one of the older employees in my office so some of the engineers are around my age. We refer to each other by our first name and I’m ok with the younger employees doing the same. When I was one of the younger employees, I had no issues with addressing my superior by Mister.
I'm a mid-level engineer and higher up than a lot of them that are doing it. They're also peers with each other and doing it so, not sure that applies. Edit: one guy says Mr.(last name) to the guy doing the exact same job as me with the same title. Calls me by my first name though.
I agree with FiriLarix that this behavior is likely some weird in-joke between these dudes. All this Mr and sir stuff is not normal Chicagoan behavior, no matter the age of these guys. (Unless there are unique cultural norms among engineers that I am unaware of—I’m not an engineer myself, but Reddit keeps recommending these posts). Without knowing these dudes, I can’t say if it’s more or less respectful that they aren’t including you in this whole thing. Do you think you can get away with just ignoring it and calling everyone by their first name?
I do call everyone by their first name as does everyone else in the 400 person office. It's not an in-joke. It's always in a respectful way about talking like actual issues we're working on. "Mr. (Last name) Can you please look at this chart for me and see if it makes sense." And "Thank you, sir, for looking into that for me." I also don't understand why everyone on here thinks I want to be Ms. or Ma'am'd when I call out specifically multiple times that I think office honorifics especially when they're not the norm are just weirdly exclusionary. I've worked with a couple of these guys for actual years on a smaller team. We're all 26-45 of varying ages. I only said they were on the younger-side to make sure no one thought I was dealing with an old school boomer.
Since OP added that this is happening in Chicago, I would guess that most likely they are saying it in jest. Especially since these 3 guys are younger AND they use it on each other.